The DooMed Speed Demos Archive returns!

[Never_Again]

didierbertrand said:

yes, i've posted this demo in the demo thread, but i had 99%kills in e4m6, and finally considered it as a fda demo.

It appears that you don't really understand what a FDA is. It's a demo where you go into a WAD without knowing anything about it except perhaps what's in its text file. It's about not knowing what's around next corner. An FDA is not a first-exit UV Max.

I just watched three of these so-called "FDAs" and sure enough, DT exits on every map with 100% kills and secrets, even in the nine-level pe4m_all movie. Just watch it and you will see that the player knows where most of the monsters/secrets are. They all need to be re-labeled to UV Maxes.

[Looper]

I'm already confused with FDA/FAD even if I haven't post any such demos.

[xepop]

I think he thought FDA is abbreviation for Failed Demo Attempt.

[didierbertrand]

[Qaatar]

I thought FDA means exactly what the acronym stands for: First Demo Attempt, no matter if the player had prior knowledge or not. I've seen many FDA demos where the player seems to vaguely know the layout of the level and some monster placements, but is quite clueless about some areas as well. One could either chalk that up to "doom sense" and making educated guesses about secrets/monster placements from years of experience, or that the player breezily played through the level first or casually took a look at a map editor before recording. These demos obviously aren't first exits, but the player doesn't seem to be 100% blind going in either.

How would these be categorized, if we are to use the strict definition of FDA? If only the strict first playthrough definition applies, then wouldn't it be better to label true "FDA" demos as "First Playthrough Attempt"? FPA?

[Qaatar]

On Vile Flesh MAP16, Ryback's vi161402 is mislabeled and/or redundant. The text file contains 14:02 as the time, but the demo is the same as 14:06.

[kmc]

[Grazza]

Qaatar: I'm pretty sure that for most of the guys who have recorded FDA demos, they are choosing maps that they haven't played at all before. That is, if they have previously played a map, it disqualifies them from recording an FDA on it. But it is true that it was never very clearly defined in the FDA thread, and so people may well have come up with different interpretations. And the name "FDA" itself isn't exactly self-explanatory.

I think the main idea was that it should represent their handling of a map when everything came as a surprise - it's useful feedback for the author, and also demonstrates aspects of Dooming skill and instinct (a good player can indeed sniff out a trap, and has a fair idea how mappers tend to design their areas) that aren't shown by standard demos, where the player is "all-knowing". So if you want a category of demos where people have previous knowledge of a map, and then record their first recording attempt, then that is the category that should have a new name. FRA? These can be interesting in different ways, as we see the (standard) demo-recording process in action, rather than the map-learning process.

I haven't recorded any FDAs myself, but I think they might be quite odd to watch, as I'd quickly get sidetracked by any silly and implausible trick idea that presented itself. :)

[Qaatar]

Grazza said:

So if you want a category of demos where people have previous knowledge of a map, and then record their first recording attempt, then that is the category that should have a new name. FRA? These can be interesting in different ways, as we see the (standard) demo-recording process in action, rather than the map-learning process.

That's certainly an interesting idea. When I get back to demo recording in the future, I will definitely include a "FRA" demo in my zip file.

I don't think I can ever qualify for the standard of a FDA, because I absolutely never record without some prior knowledge of a map, whether it was examining the layout through a map editor, watching a previous demo, or having previously played the map.

[Grazza]

Well, all you need to do is try. :) Just choose a wad that others seem to view highly, but which you haven't played, and see what happens. I'll suggest Donald R. Howard's Killzone and Killzone 2.

The "FRA" concept might be interesting... But I'm not too sure. Seeing someone restart an attempt dozens of times because they bumped a wall in the first second, or got a slow start, might not make great entertainment. The reasons why we abandon recording attempts aren't normally that we have died, so if it is all recorded as one demo (as for FDAs), then we'd need to suicide to restart. And we'll very often throw away attempts when we have exited, because they were too slow. So the idea might need some refining (or maybe Andrey can implement a "restart the same level" key that is recorded in the demo format), or the player would need to adopt lower standards to keep the resulting demo entertaining. Probably though it's more an idea for tough Max demos than for short speedruns.

[Hitherto]

Since FDA acronym was introduced here more than year ago, I pesonally recommend pick different acronym for failed demos: XDA, for example.

[Never_Again]

didierbertrand said:

You're right the pseudo-max movies(2002ado and death tormention) are first exit more than fda

Let's get this clear: a demo cannot be more or less FDA. It's either an FDA or it isn't.

didierbertrand said:

but all my other demo labeled as FDA are fda as you define it. watch and judge by yourself.

I've seen a few others now and not all of them are FDAs. Do I have to name them for you to admit they are not? I think it would be much better if you reviewed them and cleaned up the mess yourself.

[Hitherto]

Never_Again said:
I've seen a few others now and not all of them are FDAs. Do I have to name them for you to admit they are not? [/B]

Please do. Are they from http://doomedsda.us/player290lmps.html ?

Upd.: If so, then I see what only "75m1-jer E1M1 FDA PRBoom v2.5.0.7 4:07" entry is nor FDA nor XDA but clearly Max demo.

PS "glbomm" heh )

[didierbertrand]

[Hitherto]

didierbertrand said:
75m1-jer first time i played the map from A to Z, let andyOlivera judge and decide to consider it as fda or not.

Nothing to judge here. "75m1-jer fda 0407.lmp" is indeed a planned Max demo with all kills and secrets and all th way reasonable behavior (except that stuck a little in the baron's area).

didierbertrand said:
And to all "les petits malins" that wanna comment don't expect any reply from my part, this story is boring.

"Boring"... what a wonderful word. Are you really 28?

[Never_Again]

Hitherto said:

Please do. Are they from http://doomedsda.us/player290lmps.html?

Besides 75m1-jer that you mentioned, the pc94-33 demo is also obviously not an FDA, although the TXT claims it's "FDA uvmax".

didierbertrand said:

you don't like don't watch and in the fututre don't bore me with this story.

Anyone can make a mistake. Most people around here understand that and won't judge it, especially if it's an honest mistake from someone new. As long as you don't make further mistakes to cover up the first.

[Andy Olivera]

Noob: Category fixed. Thanks!

Qaatar: Duplicate removed. Thanks!

Regarding the FDAs, I've left pc_sndy, shards, 75m2-jer and 01matrix where they are because they look like FDAs to me (even though they get 100% Kills or Secrets).

[Never_Again]

Yes, these three look like genuine FDAs to me, too.

There's something odd about the shards FDA, BTW - the file itself, not the run. The WAD's filename is shards.wad on /idgames and DSDA, yet the demo footer has it as goshards.wad - weird! The TXT file also fails to mention that gothictx.wad is required to run shards.wad - you'll get a lot of missing textures without it.

One way to handle this would be adding a comment to the demo entry table. Another would be replacing the demo in the ZIP with this copy where the demo footer is corrected (the .lmp's original timestamp is preserved, that's why it's ZIPped), if Didier doesn't mind. That still leaves gothictx.wad unaccounted for. Perhaps you can think of a better way, Andy?

A couple of updates, unrelated to the above. The author of beware and bwarenew is the same as that of darkhell - Greytale. This can be easily confirmed by checking the text files of the three WADs as well as TGH's notes to his darkhell demopak.

[didierbertrand]

[Never_Again]

WIN7 has been identified as a draft version of ALOHA911 E1M3, so the author is the same - Alamain.

[Andy Olivera]

shards demo updated (both versions included). I added gothictx to the Info page (at the bottom), along with a couple other "required" WADs.

Author info for beware, bwarenew and win7 fixed. Thanks guys!

[tempun]

I suggest to add demos form this thread: http://www.doomworld.com/vb/doom-speed-demos/40564-map-02-glide-and-map-08-linedef-jump/2/

[dew]

graim's cc22-239 uv-speed (cchest) is listed under map17 because he forgot to edit his template textfile properly.

[Andy Olivera]

91 demos this week.

dew: MAP slot fixed. Thanks!

tempun: I added the demo that goes through MAP16 (with one earlier version included), but the others appear to be variations. Thanks!

[tempun]

Andy Olivera said:

tempun: I added the demo that goes through MAP16 (with one earlier version included), but the others appear to be variations. Thanks!

This post links to a demo through MAP12(fastest.lmp) which has faster MAP12.

[vdgg]

inf-lutz pack is ready :)

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?3ssj11bfr76o7x3

[Memfis]

Andy, seems like you've missed my Whitemare Map09 UV-Speed (see the first post here). Or is it still 'in queue'?

[Andy Olivera]

tempun: Yeah, that was the other demo I included. I thought it was older, since it was shorter. Didn't realize he went back to MAP10. I added a comment to the listing. Thanks!

vdgg: Yep, just didn't have time to add it this week. It'll be up next week for sure.

memfis: No, I missed it. It will also be up next week. Thanks!

[Andy Olivera]

168 demos this week.

[tempun]

Looper's demo from here is a ep1 record (even if it has 26 levels and not allowed under C-N rules, according to him).