Plutonia Revisited Community Project: Released!

[TendaMonsta]

I'll test it for you Keeper of Jericho.

[Keeper of Jericho]

Damn, I tried to run my map with chocolate doom for final tests, and it doesn't work. The map starts up, but as soon as you try to leave the starting room you get an error that says "R_FindPlane: no more visplanes". Having no experience with chocolate doom whatsoever, I have no idea what this means... I should have run tests with cd earlier...

[TendaMonsta]

ATTENTION EVERYONE WHO IS MAPPING...Occasionally test your maps in Chocolate-Doom so nothing bad happens. You can't keep testing in Zdoom, Skulltag, or even Prboom-plus for that matter. You need to make sure that there are no things such as the visplane errors and any other bug that crashes the game. Too much detail in the wrong spots could show HOM or have the visplane error.

Recommended Ports:
Chocolate-Doom
or just plain Vanilla Doom

I hope that you all realize this before you have to start your map over again. I should have posted when I realized that a few people didn't show their screen-shots in Chocolate-Doom(although they still could be testing it with choco or vanilla).

NO ZDOOM!...period

Very upsetting to not have your map working properly. I sure hope you can fix it.

[Whoo]

Keeper of Jericho said:

you get an error that says "R_FindPlane: no more visplanes". Having no experience with chocolate doom whatsoever, I have no idea what this means... I should have run tests with cd earlier...

Your map is too complex for Chocolate-Doom. Removing sectors and linedefs will lower the visplane count. You can have a maximum of 256. Use Chocorenderlimits.exe to monitor your visplane amount. It is labeled as "SEG" in the program.

[TendaMonsta]

Keeper of Jericho said:

"R_FindPlane: no more visplanes". Having no experience with chocolate doom whatsoever, I have no idea what this means... I should have run tests with cd earlier...

Meaning that there are too many floors showing on the screen at one time which causes an overflow or something and the game will immediately crash without fore-warning.

There cannot be more the 128 unique floors/ceilings showing on the screen at one time.

[Xaser]

@Whoo: Almost, but not quite. SEG is (fittingly) the seg count, which goes up to 255 and "only" results in HOM if reached. The visplane counter is VIS, which has a limit of 128 before Doom will go belly-up.

Note that chocorenderlimits.exe increases the visplane limit to 256 so it won't outright crash if you hit it, but remember that Doom's hard limit is 128 visplanes, not 256 as chocorenderlimits seems to report (the "Doom: 128" next to it is reeeally important).

Also important to note: Visplanes are not just different flats/sector height differences. They have to do with how the engine is rendered, and depending on the player's position relative to the architecture being drawn, the amount of visplanes varies. It's not the most newbie-friendly explanation in the world, but this page goes into some detail about it. Still, as a general rule of thumb, it's true that more sectors in view = more visplanes.

The easiest way to cut down on visplanes is to reduce the amount of small 'detail sectors' in an area or separate large areas with 1-sided walls or other means to block the player's view. A bit of a pain, yes, but hopefully with some small steps you'll be able to cut things down to size. The torch pillars in the 1st and 4th shots, for example, could be combined into one continuous plane, for instance. It might not look as good, but it'll bring it that much closer to running.

Don't forget to make a backup of your current version, though, in case you ever want to expand it and mark it as limit-removing. It does look quite nice. ;)

[esselfortium]

Another possibility with the torch pillars is to reduce them to something like 3 pillars per side, spreading them out more. I think that might look better, anyway.

[Keeper of Jericho]

So just reducing the amount of sectors won't help? So far I've already managed to reduce the amount of sectors from 700+ to 420.

[Whoo]

Yes, it will. I got mixed up, but doing so will still cut down the amount of floors/ceilings being displayed. Read through Xaser's post again, and you'll get the idea. Use the program I linked to. The value you must watch is displayed in the bottom left corner of the program. Make sure it doesn't exceed 128.

[Keeper of Jericho]

I really don't know what to do anymore. The number of sectors have been reduced from 720 to 162, all the detail is scrapped, the map really has been reduced to its barest of bones possible and I still get this error. Scrapping even more now would mean erasing layout structures and then I might as well make a new map. I don't get how a map like "Oddysey of Noises" can be run fine but a map like mine, a much smaller one, gets constant errors.

[Joshy]

Keeper of Jericho said:

I really don't know what to do anymore. The number of sectors have been reduced from 720 to 162, all the detail is scrapped, the map really has been reduced to its barest of bones possible and I still get this error. Scrapping even more now would mean erasing layout structures and then I might as well make a new map. I don't get how a map like "Oddysey of Noises" can be run fine but a map like mine, a much smaller one, gets constant errors.

You can send the map to me, and I'll see what can be done. Hopefully something can be done about it.

[Keeper of Jericho]

Alright, I'll PM it to you. Sometimes I'm able to explore the map for a while until it crashes, and other times it crashes immediatly. It's very weird.

EDIT: I've sent you the map.

[TendaMonsta]

Keeper of Jericho said:

I really don't know what to do anymore. The number of sectors have been reduced from 720 to 162, all the detail is scrapped, the map really has been reduced to its barest of bones possible and I still get this error. Scrapping even more now would mean erasing layout structures and then I might as well make a new map. I don't get how a map like "Oddysey of Noises" can be run fine but a map like mine, a much smaller one, gets constant errors.

"Oddysey of Noises" from Plutonia has joint sectors. All that grass is just one sector spaced out or connected. If sectors have the same height and have the same texture/flat you should join them to reduce the visplane issue.

Also since your map is smaller it is easier to trigger the visplane error since a lot of the map can be visible to the player.

[Joshy]

Thanks I got it. I'm doing some fixing and experimenting to see what can be changed. Apparently there are several unclosed sectors. I think those unclosed sectors can actually cause crashes in chocolate doom while other ports can tolerate them a little? I tried running in chocorenderlimits, and the visplane was only breached (128) in particular areas, but it should not have crashed chocorenderlimits as the limit perse is 256 (I may be wrong, I'm still learning of the limits :P). I'll let you know how it goes.

[Joshy]

Okay, I did some minor changes that didn't really change the look of the map: It now only crashes (I'm hoping) from two spots in particular. On the left corner, a brief look crashes it and the right corner, when I'm on the stairs, it crashes, or as soon as I open the door from within, it crashes immediately. See picture below:


Can I say it is looking as a really nice level, it would be a shame if it was abandoned. I'm assuming from the two corners, the player sees too much of the layout at once so maybe you could block the view somehow... maybe extending the walls in the circle to decrease the amount of stuff that is viewable.. or you can add in a high ledge/platform or walls (in a similar fashion as those in the circle) in the middle of these corners blood pools. Just a suggestion.

And I've PMed the link to your 'fixed' map.

[Xaser]

Hmm, have a higher-resolution map screenshot handy? I think I see a couple more areas that could probably be edited to reduce the count, but I can't really make it out from here.

[Mechadon]

It looks like you might be able to remove a number of those extra lines/verticies in those curved walls. At a certain point, more lines don't really make a curve look any better. As a rule of thumb, I usually try to do no more than 4 lines per 90 degrees of a curve.

Maybe that's what Xaser was going to suggest...it is sorta hard to tell if you could roughen out those curves just from that screenshots.

[MTrop]

I've finished my map. How do I submit it for testing?

I think it may fit in around MAP03 or MAP04. No new music, unless someone wants to write it.

[Joshy]

Mista_T said:

I've finished my map. How do I submit it for testing?

I think it may fit in around MAP03 or MAP04. No new music, unless someone wants to write it.

You just send it to me and the testers:

Belial
Hawkwind
dew
TheUltimateDoomer
Snakes
Tendamonsta


gun_psycho will test episodes instead of singular maps as he requested.

And once you've finished, you are allowed to select a particular mapslot, unless you wish for me to choose.

[Nuxius]

TendaMonsta said:

If sectors have the same height and have the same texture/flat you should join them to reduce the visplane issue.

Actually, no, this makes no difference, as Doom will attempt to merge neighboring like flats (with the same light level) into one plane, if possible.

Consequently, if two flats are separate from each other by a different flat (or a different light level), even if you combine them into one sector, Doom will split them into two planes.

Also, if a sector has a complex shape, Doom will have to split it into multiple planes. A example of this could be a lake in the middle of a cave.

I use the word flat here because you really need to understand there is a difference between sectors and planes. Doom handles planes separately for floors and ceilings (i.e. floor and ceiling flats). So lets say you have a square room with a floor that is the same for the whole room, and a ceiling that has a row of broken lights going through the middle of the room. In this case, you have 3 sectors, but have 4 planes. There are three for the ceiling; one for one side, one for the other side, and one for the broken lights in the middle. Combining the two sectors on each side will make no difference, Doom will still split them into 2 different planes, since the row of broken lights separates them. Consequently, the floor is one plane here, even though there are three sectors, as all the floor properties are the same, so Doom combines them.

In a nutshell, if you are combining sectors that share the same properties in order to cut visplanes, you are wasting your time.

[Violator]

I can also test maps, I'm good at exploiting bugs in maps

[Keeper of Jericho]

I've got good news. I received the fixed version of my map you gave me, Joshy, and I did some minor redesigning on it to do as you suggested (take away some of the view) in a way that it still all looks pleasing to the eye. And I can now safely say that it runs under Chocolate Doom, as I've played through it 5 times in a row and never once got an error. It is now truly ready for test-playing.

[TendaMonsta]

Nuxius said:

Actually, no, this makes no difference, as Doom will attempt to merge neighboring like flats (with the same light level) into one plane, if possible.

Consequently, if two flats are separate from each other by a different flat (or a different light level), even if you combine them into one sector, Doom will split them into two planes.

Also, if a sector has a complex shape, Doom will have to split it into multiple planes. A example of this could be a lake in the middle of a cave.

I use the word flat here because you really need to understand there is a difference between sectors and planes. Doom handles planes separately for floors and ceilings (i.e. floor and ceiling flats). So lets say you have a square room with a floor that is the same for the whole room, and a ceiling that has a row of broken lights going through the middle of the room. In this case, you have 3 sectors, but have 4 planes. There are three for the ceiling; one for one side, one for the other side, and one for the broken lights in the middle. Combining the two sectors on each side will make no difference, Doom will still split them into 2 different planes, since the row of broken lights separates them. Consequently, the floor is one plane here, even though there are three sectors, as all the floor properties are the same, so Doom combines them.

In a nutshell, if you are combining sectors that share the same properties in order to cut visplanes, you are wasting your time.

Thank you for correcting my dumbass :)

[Philnemba]

My map is about 99.9% done just need to test difficulty settings and add more minor details while testing with Chocorenderlimits.exe. I'll post more pics once I'm finish.

[MTrop]

Joshy said:

You just send it to me and the testers:

Belial
Hawkwind
dew
TheUltimateDoomer
Snakes
Tendamonsta


gun_psycho will test episodes instead of singular maps as he requested.

And once you've finished, you are allowed to select a particular mapslot, unless you wish for me to choose.

I have sent PMs out to the testers. You may choose between MAP03 or MAP04 for the map's final resting place.

EDIT: I think I'll call the map "Stony Halls"

PRIMEVAL, you may make music for it if you wish. Would you like the map to be sent to you, as well?

[PRIMEVAL]

Sure, send it away!

[Joshy]

Violator said:

I can also test maps, I'm good at exploiting bugs in maps

Thanks but I think we've got enough testers for the time being. :-)

Keeper of Jericho said:

I've got good news. I received the fixed version of my map you gave me, Joshy, and I did some minor redesigning on it to do as you suggested (take away some of the view) in a way that it still all looks pleasing to the eye. And I can now safely say that it runs under Chocolate Doom, as I've played through it 5 times in a row and never once got an error. It is now truly ready for test-playing.

That is good news. :-) Glad to hear it.

@Mista_T: Played your map, it is truly a nice map. Reeks of Mista_T's layout style. :P I think it'll fit in Map04 for the time being.

Keep up the good work peeps.

I just started on another map, naming it Poison Ivy III (it's a catchy name :P). I'm thinking it'll be the last map I contribute (if things go well with this project that is, so far so good) It'll be a combination of Impossible Mission and vines and also using the opportunity to use t.v's textures, especially the green wall which is nice. Currently not sure if I should make the layout somewhat long or just short and sweet. Time will tell. All within the limits so far:

[Kira]

It should be finished soon (detailing and things are on the way).
BTW the map slot is 12 but feel free to change if needed. The music of Plutonia map 12 fit it well though.

[Violator]

Have to restart map, Chocolate is a raper...

[Kira]

Violator said:

Have to restart map, Chocolate is a raper...

Let see a DoomBuilder screen, hopefully we can change little things to make it work on vanilla/chocolate.