Plutonia Revisited Community Project: Released!

[Olympus]

The text file says map 08, franckFRAG.

[hawkwind]

didierbertrand said:

Hi
big bug in map03, impossible to exit the level!

The reason for that is reported by me above on page 25.

[Xaser]

Well, I've played through the first 4 maps so far, and here's some general stuff I wrote down while playing (mostly nitpicks and thoughts)...

(FYI, I'm testing in Chocolate Doom, skill 4, w/pistol start on each map).

General Critiques
- A lot of the music is in MIDI format, which glitches out in Chocolate Doom. I actually made myself go and fix this before I'd let myself play the wad... :P
- Two of the songs (D_DEAD and D_ULTIMA) actually wouldn't convert. Too large for midi2mus.exe.
- Really bastard nitpick: The wad structure is poorly organized. Not that it would make a difference to the average user, but everything's all jumbled around in a somewhat confusing-ish way.

MAP01: Stonewall
- Nitpicky, but there's a big yellow box on the automap all the way around the outdoor areas. No harm in marking them 'hidden', I'd say.
- Similarly, but more seriously, the red key trap was spoiled completely because the hidden door's outer linedefs didn't have the secret flag set.
+ Wheee, waterfall area is really neat. :)
- Slight HOM (probably a seg overflow) in the muck around the exit area.
Overall: Good map, and a fitting starter. Simple but interesting layout, and not overly hectic or uneventful either way. Definitely remniscient of the Plutonia style without feeling too much like Congo or Comeback. Certainly a good start.

Random thought: Yeah, TV's mapname graphics kick the hell out of mine. ;)

MAP02: Temple of Cetza
- A couple of shells are suspended in the air to the left of the first platform when the enemies appear. Without them, there's not enough ammo (from pistol-start) to adequately defend yourself from the demons, resulting in a pacifist rage throughout dangerous sections of the map. I had to retry this one more than once just to get past that. :P
* Actually, I managed to pick them up anyway by loading a savegame underneath them, somehow. Word. :P
* Hmm, there does seem to be a rather large ammo shortage in this map. I've had to rely on a lot of infighting -- not that I mind it, actually. It's fun keeping a mancubus around to help clear out a few demons, but some may be put off by that sort of thing.
+ I see you've done a good job at taking care of the automap view. Props. ;)
Overall: Thumbs-up, I say. It really looks and feels like a Casali map, and though ammo is seriously tight from the beginning, I think it adds to the charm of the map. Good work!

MAP03: Escape from Ghost Town
- ...or is it Urban Decay? A bit odd, the dual naming feels to me (Romero is not exempt either), but again, a nitpick at best.
+ I'm really liking the circle-based layout. Not sure why. Yay curves. :P
* Hahaha, here I was mentally remarking about how straightforward the gameplay is... then suddenly, the vile trap. :P
- Eh? I opened up one of the DOOR3s in the blue door room and was greeted by a nice, fat HOM and nothing else.
* Ah, wait, somebody posted about this map being unexitable -- well, seems I've found the problem. :P
Overall: Good map, though the exit obviously needs fixing. A lot of hitscanners in open areas, but there's adequate cover to maneuver yourself to the ledge entrances. Couldn't find the PG, but didn't really need it for the most part. It'll be solid once patched up.

MAP04: Emerald Pool
- Hmm... that's a lot of equipment at the start. And a really obnoxious wall of chaingunners...
+ The pool lowering was an unexpected (in a good way) effect.
- The start area is far too narrow for the sort of baddle that's being held here. It quickly turns into a linear mass of enemies that one must rocket through.
Overall: Hmm, I'm really iffy on this one. Some areas (past the yellow door) were good but others felt very rough. There are a few too many monsters for the small spaces presented here, and it was a bit too linear as a whole. Not terrible, but not great either.


I've also fixed the little tidbits in my maps that 4mer posted and consciously decided to blame dew's copy of prboom+ for causing mischief. ;)

[4mer]

I've just been checking the music out with the original plutonia doom2.exe in dosbox 0.74 and found:
All music except for maps 10 and 32 plays back OK.
As a guess maybe these two (D_DEAD and D_ULTIMA) are too large, all the other music is < 64K.

[Joshy]

Xaser said:

...- Really bastard nitpick: The wad structure is poorly organized. Not that it would make a difference to the average user, but everything's all jumbled around in a somewhat confusing-ish way.

Ahh, it was compiled in a very short amount of time. I can re-organise it if it's necessary or expected?

And only map32's music doesn't work on chocolate doom (1.2.1). I'd just leave it myself as the rest of the music works for me.

[Snakes]

I'll try and get some playtesting done, but:

1) I'm going out of town for a bit.
2) University work is starting to really be a problem.

Luckily, there's a whole swath of people stepping up to the plate :)

[dew]

Xaser said:
- A couple of shells are suspended in the air to the left of the first platform when the enemies appear.

if you check it carefully, you'll notice they spring into the air along with the enemy trap. it happens in a seemingly random way throughout the wad when some floor height changes. it behaves the same even with doom2 for iwad and plutonia+prcptest for pwads, but it doesn't happen in boom.

this could be nasty in map02's case, because it lifts a coop berserk. the fix is simple - move the affected items farther from the wall.

Without them, there's not enough ammo (from pistol-start) to adequately defend yourself from the demons, resulting in a pacifist rage throughout dangerous sections of the map. I had to retry this one more than once just to get past that. :P

now now. a typical pcorf scenario with a horde of demons and a berserk. i wonder what you are doing wrong. :)

[WH-Wilou84]

On the credit picture lump, Xaser should be credited for both maps 15 and 25. Joshy took the most part in making map 26. And I believe dew made some testing as well. :)

[hawkwind]

Here's a possible showstopper in map 15.

The teleport thing at sector 125 is not flagged EASY.

ALSO, I cannot see a way to activate line 3522 even with having the red skullkey. Am I missing something ?

[t.v.]

keep up the good work guys! I am looking forward to the end-result...

@ Joshy: I sent you an email yesterday regarding my additions to the text file. If changes need to be made on the (credit) textures can you email me a list of these so I can fix them?
I won't be checking this forum much and you are probably the person with the most oversight :-)

[dew]

hawkwind said:

ALSO, I cannot see a way to activate line 3522 even with having the red skullkey. Am I missing something ?

open linedef 278 at the top of the spire, jump down the cascade. the spacing of the walls is just right for a simple forward run. i'm assuming this is the hard part, because the corpse filled area is easy to figure out (trigger 903, then 5064, walk to 3522).
there's yet another way to reach the area, but that is so secret i could be killed just for mentioning it.

[Kira]

The end is near! Looking forward to try the maps from the others level designers :-).

[Xaser]

dew said:

now now. a typical pcorf scenario with a horde of demons and a berserk. i wonder what you are doing wrong. :)

Somehow I didn't even notice the berserk until returning to this area after grabbing the first key. Whoops. :P

[PRIMEVAL]

Joshy said:

And only map32's music doesn't work on chocolate doom (1.2.1). I'd just leave it myself as the rest of the music works for me.

Of course my music would behave like that... sigh lol

[Lorenzo]

who's going to modify and correct the bugs? The authors or a bugs-correction team?

Lorenzo

[Mechadon]

Xaser already covered the bugs I found because I'm so slow :P. So far I am enjoying myself though! One bug that I did notice was that in the map "Caughtisle", there were a lot of HOMs due to too many SEGS in view. I'm up to MAP08 now and it keeps crashing on me near the beginning of the map because of a VPO.

*edit*

I got another VPO on MAP10 while running around the room where you get the red key.

[WH-Wilou84]

Map 14 : I like this map a lot, it's quite brutal and furious, but it seems to me that the huge fights at the Plasma Gun area are too easy to bypass. You just have to run straight to the teleporter in front of you. Kinda like what you get at the end of HR map 20, it's almost useless.
A suggestion would be to have those red and grey teleporters up on fast lifts, with switches nearby, so that it's actually a bit dangerous trying to escape. Surely it would slow down the speed route, but not by that much.
As it is, imho the player will never stay in the area and fight, unless he's doing a max demo.
What do you think, Phobus & testers ?

[dew]

i went through the megawad again... i think i lost a big part of my sanity today. i wasn't hunting VPOs, just other bugs... i'll bundle 4mer's and xaser's findings together for a big list.

map01:
critical: coop starts  //4mer
optional: hide the bounding box? //xaser
optional: hide the outline of RK trap? //xaser
repair: fix HOM in the muck at exit //xaser

map02:
move things 227, 228 (shells) and 303 (berserk) at least 4 units east //xaser&dew

map03:
critical: linedef 1851 should be D1, not S1 //hawkwind&everyone else
optional: map name duality? //xaser
repair: delete things 321 and 322 (coop archviles), superfluous and colliding //hawkwind
gameplay: coop balance issues? TBD

map04:
overhaul pending.

map07:
critical: coop starts //4mer
optional: hide bounding box? //dew
gameplay: coop balance issues? TBD

map10:
repair: things 497, 498, 499 (floating skull rocks) tagged multiplayer only. //dew

map11:
optional: hide bounding box? //dew

map12:
optional: flag horizon lines in south and northeast as hidden for better automap effect? //dew

map15:
critical: Thing 1634 (Teleport Destination) is only present on medium and hard skill levels //4mer
repair: Things 487, 488, 489, 490, 491, 492, 493 and 596 have no skill flags //4mer 
----
inconsistently appearing item hover after nearby floor height changes,
usually because their bounding box is partially caught on a higher sector:
things 802, 803 (ammo clips) - either delete or move to sector 592 spots, hover after 7346 pressed
thing 1538 (ammo clip) - move at least 8 units west, hovers after 4744 pressed
thing 1539 (rocket) - move at least 4 units west, hovers after 4744 pressed
thing 404 (rocket) - move at least 4 units west, hovers after 278 pressed
things 780, 781, 782, 783 (flasks) - either move 4-8(?) units away from the windows or set the outer border
of those windows impassible; hover after 3678 pressed
thing 768 (helmet) - move at least 4 units east and 4 units south, hovers after 3469 pressed
things 504, 505, 508, 509 (candles) - move away from the descending platform by 4+4 units (like the helmet),
they jump up to the platform height after it is activated

map16:
repair: forgotten 3D start //dew

map18:
repair: Line 3494 back side lower has unknown texture '-L' probably should be '-' //4mer

map21:
critical: Has lots of W1 teleport lines for monsters which would be better off as WR //4mer

map22:
repair: Thing 459 (Chaingunner) is blocked by 462 (Former Sergeant) (in multiplayer) //4mer

map25:
repair: Line 4381 (WR Teleport) has sector tag 0 //4mer
repair: forgotten 3D start //dew

map26:
critical: coop starts  //4mer
optional: flag bounding box of the northern garden as hidden? //dew

map27:
repair: forgotten 3D start //dew
sad fact: graf zahl and other wallrunless zdoomists won't be able to get the bfg. :(

map29:
repair: Thing 1221 (Cyberdemon) at (10368, -832) may be blocked by 366 and 66 (Revenants) (in multiplayer) //4mer
repair: Lines 3778 and 3790 (WR Teleport (Monsters only)) have no sector tags //4mer

map30:
fun fact: firing bfg over the pile of caco corpses can easily cause the all-ghosts bug. :)

map31:
this is still the beta version of the map... anyways...
critical: EE room contains secrets
critical: DM area contains secrets
critical: not pressing linedef 801 and running over the wall traps player forever
critical: linedef 734 needs some sort of opening action, player is trapped
gameplay: no multiplayer monsters

map32:
no way i'm holding shoot for 30 minutes again. no bugs in this bastard!!!

[WH-Wilou84]

Good job. :>
Noticed a HOM on map 16 : if you activate linedef 244 ( a lift near some blue door ), you'll see that linedef 572 is in desperate need of a lower texture.

[hawkwind]

dew said:

open linedef 278 at the top of the spire, jump down the cascade. the spacing of the walls is just right for a simple forward run.

I now feel like a dill. I was doing what you say. What was throwing me was sector 754. I was constantly falling into sector 454 and thinking that I couldn't reach door sector 154. All I had to do was just look left or right ..... D'oh !

Just noticed that sector tag 51 should be removed from sector 755.

[Joshy]

Lorenzo said:

who's going to modify and correct the bugs? The authors or a bugs-correction team?

Lorenzo

I'm happy to fix smallish bugs for the authors myself. Just make sure the author posts whoever's fixing the bugs so we know what's going on.

[Walter confetti]

wait, wait... so this megawad is finished?

Good job!

I can't wait to play it!

[dew]

hawkwind said:

I have tried that. Problem being is that sector 754 has to be raised to open door sector 154, yet to raise sector 754 the player has to cross either line 5069 or 5076. How does the player get to cross these lines beforehand ?

ah, i see... xaser's ridiculous twisting and twirling confused even a person as knowledgeable as you. :)

Spoiler

sector 754 isn't supposed to be up the first time you run down the cascade. you just fall down to 454, circle around that structure you are trying to enter and go do business to press the cursed linedef 3522.
754 allows you to reach secret exit, because you need to enter sector 453 for that. that is a whole quest of it's own. first you need to run across sector 787, then teleport through linedef 3670, then activate 5069/5076. this is goddamn geographical sorcery, i was recording some demos for my feedback to xaser and i had to spend like 2 weeks familiarizing myself with the map. the feedback post was possibly the longest thing i've ever written on doomworld. :)

[Mechadon]

I'll take care of the bugs that come up in my map. I'm actually glad I have a reason to go in and mess with it again because I found a misalignment. I figured it wasn't a big enough concern to fix and resend it, but with some bugs it'll feel more worthwhile :P

[Xaser]

For the record, I'm taking care of mine, and I've tweaked everything that dew has listed thus far. I'm really embarassed about the teleport situation...

Anyhow, I've got another round of critiques, this time from MAP04-MAP08. I was a bit grumpy today when I started this play session, so it's very possible I might be a lot nitpickier than I should be. I apologize in advance, I suppose.


General Critiques
- Hmm, demos aren't replaced. I'm willing to record a couple of me sucking things up a la the originals, if anyone's fine with that. ;)
- The "F" and "D" font characters have a stray red pixel in them. I supplied fixed versions in the resource wad I sent Joshy, for a quick copypasta fix. ;)

MAP05: That Flooded Place
- There's a lot of little wall details (e.g. wood posts) everywhere that are easy to get stuck on. Perhaps consider putting some impassible lines along the sides to prevent the player from getting trapped in the little alcoves while moving?
- The mancubi near the SSG are a bit dull to fight -- easy to dodge + only shotgun&chaingun for attack = meat shield plowing, which isn't so fun. Perhaps replace them with revvies.
+ I like how open-ended the layout is. Not having a single path is a plus in my eyes.
* Haha, the blue key surprised me... no trap? :P
* Hmm... the red, too. Bit of a quiet finish..?
Overall: Not a bad little map, but the posts really hamper movement and detract from the flow quite a bit. A slightly grand-er finale might be worth considering, but no bugs to speak of.

MAP06: Stony Halls
- The final room with the viles uses regular MIDVINE* as hanging midtextures in the room. CEILVINE would work a bit better, IMO.
* Odd. I couldn't find much else to complain about. Damnit, Matt. :P
Overall: I really like this one! Great pacing throughout, and the fights were certainly hectic but fair. I survived it bloody and banged up at 10% health after finding all secrets, and loved every minute of it. ;)

Random thought: I like how the player, in the story text, indeed recognizes that plot does not matter. :P

MAP07: Caughtisle
+ I just love the scene at the beginning of the map. Shit's about to go DOWN.
- Same complaint regarding the bounding box. 'Hidden' is your friend. :P
+ Interesting -- I thought I was breaking the system by deciding to kill the two cybies early, but sure enough, their teleporting replacements unlocked the path forward. Devious... ;)
- Ick. Seg overflows. @_@
- Hmm, I'm not sure if I like how the archviles are placed outside. Makes it completely impossible to exit the building without first hiding inside and taking everyone out, and it seems like it would've been an awesomely hectic adventure to be able to run outside and try and dodge the spideys there without worrying about getting vile'd. Revenants instead, I think, would make it a lot more fair while still providing extra danger for anyone who wished to venture outdoors early.
- I managed to completely exhaust the map of ammo right before getting to the final archvile, making the map virtually impossible to max. A berserk somewhere, at least, could help a lot.
Overall: Naturally, the map promises action, and it delivers in spades. Solid and sharp gameplay, and absolutely clever use of special monsters (mancubi+arachs and the things that block them ;) to control flow. Definitely a thumbs-up from me, despite sounding overly negative earlier.

MAP08: Rules of Death
- Erp. Visplane overflow in the start area, looking down at the main area from the stairs. A quick tip to fixing this would be to set the ceiling-bar sectors' light levels to be the same as the wood-floor sector next to it. This will greatly reduce the number of visplanes required to render the scene.
- You might want to consider marking the outdoor start area's surrounding walls (that lower after pressing the switch) as 'Secret' so it's not that obvious that they're going to lower eventually. A similar case happens on the east side, after the platform lowers -- I can already tell that one of these walls is fake, just by checking the map.
+ Don't let the long negative remarks discourage you, either. I'm -really- liking this map so far. ;)
+ Hehe, the rising/lowering platforms with the zombies on it are some of the most fun constructs I've seen in the wad so far.
* I was a bit surprised that the muck in the large pit actually damaged me. It generally doesn't in Plutonia maps, not that I mind much though (I break the rules too: blood doesn't hurt in my own maps :)
- Tutti Frutti on the exit signs. Make sure that they don't tile vertically (no higher than 16 units).
Overall: I hate to pick one this early, but this may be my favorite map so far. Really interesting layout (it's almost... id-like, dare I say?), solid gameplay throughout, and one bastard good time of a fight at the end (especially the "holy shit!" moment where you see all the knights before consciously triggering them). Just fix that VPO issue and it'll be perfect -- definitely worth the deadline extension, at any rate. ;)


Damn good stuff thus far. Certainly looking forward to the rest. :)

[EDIT] Oh fuuu~ I just realized that dew and hawkwind were talking about helix... heh, I'm forgetting my own numbers now! :P

It's a bit confusing, for sure, but hopefully not too incredibly evil. I did remove the extraneous sector tag 51 as well -- thanks hawk ;)

[hawkwind]

Map 31 showstopper ...

If the player crosses line 1727 but does not activate line 801, straferuns to rising sector 285 and teleports at sector 185, the player will find that they cannot exit to level 16. What needs to be done is place a new line ( or use line 799, untested as yet ) just south of line 799, give it linetype 38, give it a tag number and change the tag number on sectors 290 and 291 to this tag number. While at it flip lines 1283-1286

[gun_psycho]

I checked out maps 32 and 30, but there weren't any bugs that I found so far... though the latter from pistol start, particularly at the final boss himself, was just... nuts. (not as insane as HR1's map30, though)

[valkiriforce]

Well it seems the thing on my MAP22 is pretty minor, just uncheck the multiplayer chaingunner's easy to being turned off.

[MTrop]

So far, the reported bugs in my maps seem minor enough to let Joshy or somebody to fix.

[Xaser]

A few more. Last ones for the night -- I need some sleep ;)


MAP09: Ruined Kingdom
- Hmm, the Hexen music feels out of place to me. I can't get over the fact that this isn't Shadow Wood. :P
+ Oh, snap! Mancubus trap!
- The raised bridge-ish area with the cacos+knights and the railings all around just wasn't a fun arena to fight in. No room at all to move anywhere that's not backwards or forwards.
- I was a bit put off by the fact that the starting area is never used or visited again. It looks nice, but what it its purpose?
Overall: Hmm, not sure about this one. overall, it suffered from a slow, grind-y sort of gameplay that basically consisted of ducking out and shooting at enemies in front of you. The map looks nice but the layout runs on rails, with absolutely only path you can take at any given moment. Some good ideas (manc trap for one), but not strung together very well IMO.

MAP10: Bloodbath
- I've mentioned it before, but the music glitches something fierce. It's too large to convert to a MUS, and playing midis in Chocolate Doom (1.5.0) results in nothing more than semi-musical gibberiawsh.
- Fark! Random VPO in the red key room. Twice. Same spot, too -- trying to get on that waist-high platform via the tiny step is game suicide.
- The red-door switch is placed in a really obscure area, and the door indicator is far too hard to see considering how high and dark it is. Took me a long while to find it -- perhaps consider lighting up the indicator.
Overall: Don't let the minuses confuse you -- I really liked this map. Short, sweet, and to the point, and while a bit simplistic in layout, it does its job well. Good dose of action, this, although the red key 'puzzle' slowed things down a bit much.

MAP11: Will you Be my NME?
- Automap lines, once more... ;)
+ I really like the 'grand' feel of this one. Huge n' expansive, :)
+ The PG trap is really ingenious -- the consequences are blatantly obvious, leaving the real choice to the player to decide whether or not it's worth it. ;)
Overall: Whoo! Big and grand and kickass, this one was. A bit confusing at times, but that may have been due to the fact that I was tired as hell and completely forgot where the obvious red/yellow switches were. Regardless, a blast to play through. ;)