Things about Doom you just found out

[Deleted_Account]

In Doombuilder I just noticed there is a bloody mess 1 and bloody mess 2. I think it's supposed to be a gibbed marine? I'm not sure what the difference between the two are though.

[Graf Zahl]

Piper Maru said:

I'm not sure what the difference between the two are though.

Simple: There is none.

[Ledillman]

Graf Zahl said:

Simple: There is none.

I always wondered why both of them are the same? was the second one supposed to have another sprite?

[Rayziik]

^ Probably. But at least it provides a free thing to replace in Dehacked :D

[Da Werecat]

Ledillman said:

I always wondered why both of them are the same? was the second one supposed to have another sprite?

Actually, both of them were supposed to have another sprite. One was for the legs, and the other was for the torso (the marine was supposed to split in half when gibbed).

Making them the same was probably a lazy way of fixing the maps that already featured them when the gibbing was redone.

[Aquanet]

Old school Skillsaw.

https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/0-9/666

[Ledillman]

Rayzik said:

^ Probably. But at least it provides a free thing to replace in Dehacked :D

S-seito kaichou!

Da Werecat said:

Actually, both of them were supposed to have another sprite. One was for the legs, and the other was for the torso (the marine was supposed to split in half when gibbed).

Making them the same was probably a lazy way of fixing the maps that already featured them when the gibbing was redone.

Yeah, I think I remember those sprites, not sure if I saw them on the alpha demos via Slade3 or because of Romero's unused Doom sprite/texture packs he released some time ago.

[Maes]

After more than 20 years of Dooming, I finally found a situation where the Partial Invisibility artifact doesn't suck: playing with -fast. Under those conditions, where suddenly you're unable to dodge most projectiles fast/accurately enough, this item suddenly becomes A LOT more useful, with most misses by the monsters being, well, MISSES.

[Dragonfly]

Ah, someone who agrees that the partial invisibility is not a powerup but rather a nerf for the player in most given scenarios. :P

[Maes]

I think most people here would agree to that, at least those who can dodge effectively at normal speed, and to whom dodging has become second nature. In that situation, yes, that item becomes a liability because you end up running into whatever you were trying to dodge. But throw -fast in there, and the game changes completely.

Now, if there is indeed a majority that thinks otherwise...now that is another thing about Doom I've just found out ;-)

[damerell]

Maes said:

After more than 20 years of Dooming, I finally found a situation where the Partial Invisibility artifact doesn't suck: playing with -fast. Under those conditions, where suddenly you're unable to dodge most projectiles fast/accurately enough, this item suddenly becomes A LOT more useful, with most misses by the monsters being, well, MISSES.

Funny, my perception is completely the opposite. Without -fast, partial invisibility is tolerable. (Of course, it works on hitscanners in either case). There are relatively few projectiles coming in and they move slowly enough you have a reasonable chance of redodging one on a "just wrong" trajectory.

With -fast, it's the kiss of death. Normally you can dodge on -fast by dodging constantly (steady circlestrafe in an open area, pop-and-drop around a corner, whatever) or by dodging when you see the monster's attack animation start. You certainly can't do the latter reliably if the projectile might be being fired off to the side.

[Voros]

So -fast plus invisibility basically makes the monsters "smarter" as they "think ahead"?

[baja blast rd.]

Maes could you give an example of -- or draw ; -- a simple scenario to describe what you mean?

[Maes]

C'mon people, it's really not that hard to grasp.

Normally, the invisibility powerup is a liability to even medium-skilled player, as it results in getting hit more often because of the dodging instinct that a player has acquired. Often, this results in running head-on onto the projectiles you were trying to dodge because of the instinctive strafing to the left or to the right (expecting to be hit in the middle).

Modifying one's behavior and waiting for a projectile to be actually flung in order to decide where/if to dodge does work, but it's a skill on top of another skill, a nuisance, and confusing as hell. Basically, it destroys the predictability that makes Doom's gameplay so enjoyable.

Perversely, a player that has NOT mastered dodging/strafing will likely benefit much more than a relatively skilled one, exactly because he will keep his central position with respect to the attacking monsters, and will not risk dodging the "wrong" way.

But don't take my word for this part of the deal, read the wiki. Capisc? Good, read on...

With -fast however, even a skilled player will find himself a "noob" again, facing his attackers dead-center simply because he won't be quick enough to dodge -and it's not only a matter of reflexes either, some projectiles just become too fast to dodge at medium ranges. But, TA-DAH, the Invisibility powerup now is able to save the day even for skilled players -if they didn't think of themselves as such, why would they play with -fast on?

[CaptainObvious]Obviously, what I said about -fast is also valid for Nightmare[/CaptainObvious]

[baja blast rd.]

Maes said:

Modifying one's behavior and waiting for a projectile to be actually flung in order to decide where/if to dodge does work, but it's a skill on top of another skill, a nuisance, and confusing as hell. Basically, it destroys the predictability that makes Doom's gameplay so enjoyable.

Like most things in Doom, knowing is half the battle -- that's not so hard once you are aware that it is a strategy and practice it some times. Also, I like unpredictability. :)

On to the main part of the post:

Maes said:

With -fast however, even a skilled player will find himself a "noob" again, facing his attackers dead-center simply because he won't be quick enough to dodge -and it's not only a matter of reflexes either, some projectiles just become too fast to dodge at medium ranges. But, TA-DAH, the Invisibility powerup now is able to save the day even for skilled players -if they didn't think of themselves as such, why would they play with -fast on?

Who is this mythical "skilled player" who is predominantly micrododging on -fast instead of simply abusing pattern dodging as much as possible? And if a setup is tough enough for routine patterned movement to be unfeasible (e.g. high density setups that force conscious and continual repositioning in response to monster activity), partial invisibility generally will get you rekt. There are some offbeat cases where it's preferable (infight induction where vectors normally wouldn't be easy to establish, for example), but yeah, those aren't the norm.

Also the wiki isn't such a great source of strategy. It's partially written in that '90s mentality that assumed a far lower standard of play.

[antares031]

Maes said:

After more than 20 years of Dooming, I finally found a situation where the Partial Invisibility artifact doesn't suck: playing with -fast. Under those conditions, where suddenly you're unable to dodge most projectiles fast/accurately enough, this item suddenly becomes A LOT more useful, with most misses by the monsters being, well, MISSES.

In my honest opinion, Partial Invisibility is actually really useful against deadly hitscanners, such as chaingunners or Spider Masterminds. Without any solid covers to hide, Partial Invisibility gives you more chances to dodge bullets quite effectively. It's also easy to make more monster infighting situations since hitscanners will spray the bullet all over the place. I've just made a short video to explain my opinion:

Not to mention that it's hard to recognize the opponent in the dark area during the deathmatch if he obtained Partial Invisibility, unless you have a BFG. Since classic doom doesn't have footstep noise for players, the only way to find the opponent player is seeing him with bare eyes. And Partial Invisibility gives a great advantage to player who obtained it.

But yes. Partial Invisibility doesn't work pretty good against projectile shooters, which are the majority of monster species of classic doom.

[40oz]

I think Maes is right. Sometimes there are so many projectiles coming at you, that it makes more sense to dodge the individual shots than to focus on where they are coming from.

Think about a group of three or four arachnatrons firing at you at once (I'm picturing the BFG room in MAP10 Refueling Base). You're probably not focusing on the arachnatrons individual shots as you are the steady stream of projectiles coming your way. In order to buy the most time, you would probably get further away and move very slowly at a consistent speed while the stream of projectiles passes your right or left side. A small error in judgment such as an object stopping you can result in taking a ton of damage at once. Partial invisibility makes it so only a third of those projectiles are coming in your direction, so not only would the consequences be less severe if an error happens, but the amount of projectiles you immediately need to dodge is halved (at least) if you are to keep calm.

If you replace those arachnatrons with a frontline of like 20 -fast imps, the situation is pretty similar.

[damerell]

Voros said:

So -fast plus invisibility basically makes the monsters "smarter" as they "think ahead"?

Not at all. Invisibility makes them fire not at you but "to whom it may concern". -fast means there's enough projectiles in the watering-can of fire that any given spot in it is quite dangerous.

[damerell]

40oz said:

Think about a group of three or four arachnatrons firing at you at once (I'm picturing the BFG room in MAP10 Refueling Base). You're probably not focusing on the arachnatrons individual shots as you are the steady stream of projectiles coming your way. In order to buy the most time, you would probably get further away and move very slowly at a consistent speed while the stream of projectiles passes your right or left side.

Oddly this seems like a perfect example of when Maes's principle doesn't work. Partial invisibility then would be ghastly, with a small proportion of the projectiles hitting you no matter what you did; without it you'd just be able to sidle to one side, as you describe, and have the whole lot miss. On -fast the same is true but you'll take more damage off that small proportion because there are more projectiles.

Thinking about it, I think Maes's idea does work when there's enough being flung at you that some of it is going to connect anyway - especially when it comes from multiple angles (whichever way you dodge, you're not moving laterally relative to some attackers) & if mancubi are in the mix doing "to whom it may concern" anyway. Then overall degradation in enemy accuracy is worth having.

[Maes]

damerell said:

Thinking about it, I think Maes's idea does work when there's enough being flung at you that some of it is going to connect anyway

Which is exactly what happens on -fast. More misdirected FAST shots that you wouldn't be able to dodge/follow a pattern = better chances for survival.

[axdoomer]

The title screen's cyberdemon has a human like nose, but the in-game cyberdemon has two nostrils, like a horse.

[ABRACADABRA]

axdoom1 said:

The title screen's cyberdemon has a human like nose, but the in-game cyberdemon has two nostrils, like a horse.

looking for the artwork I've just found that, unlike doom 1, publisher couldn't decide wich side cybie should face


http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/doom/images/5/51/Doom2_title.png/revision/latest?cb=20080630083538

[ABRACADABRA]

btw, I've also just found out about REAL Doom 2 movie
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhoom_2

[Maes]

In some early concept sketches, the Cyberdemon has a bat-like nose.



Also, I guess that the "correct" orientation for Doom II's title and cover art is with the Cyberdemon on the left: this way the RL is in his left hand. This also makes Doomguy right-handed.

[scifista42]

Maes said:

http://67.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lnj0gkLn861qarrk2o2_1280.jpg

I see even that Cyberdemon's nostrils as his eyes, and his face to be like this.

[Voros]

ABRACADABRA said:

btw, I've also just found out about REAL Doom 2 movie
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhoom_2

Heh. I saw the whole trilogy of Dhoom.

Why its called Dhoom, remains a mystery.
Edit: no wait, I remember. One the movie songs is based around that word.

[joe-ilya]

There's an early version of TNT MAP17 in #1dwango, and some original MIDIs by Tom Mustain himself.

[Bauul]

Incredibly embarrassingly, I only just learned there's a Lost Soul limit in vanilla Doom.

Given I just designed a map with 121 Lost Souls, I'm extremely glad it ended up being limit-removing source port only!

[Gez]

Bauul said:

Incredibly embarrassingly, I only just learned there's a Lost Soul limit in vanilla Doom.

Given I just designed a map with 121 Lost Souls, I'm extremely glad it ended up being limit-removing source port only!

The lost soul limit is only for pain elementals attempting to spit more of them. It doesn't apply to lost souls that are placed in the map directly.

In other words, in your 121 lost souls map, a pain elemental would be unable to spawn more of them until at least 101 lost souls have been killed.

[Memfis]

Milo Casali was born thanks to artificial insemination, which was criticized by the church.