Things about Doom you just found out

[wallabra]

1 minute ago, Pegg said:

The RL has way more dps than the ssg... More than double it. It even wins in mean damage of performing one attack. The horrible attack rate of the ssg sends it behind all the powered weapons dps wise. (the only thins going for it are the stun chance and burst)

 

And the plentiness of ammo. Shells are way more available than rockets, even in double-ammo mode (e.g. ITYTD). Plus, shotgun zombies (former sergeants) drop shotgun ammo, but no monster drops rocket ammo (or a rocket launcher, for that matter).

[SaladBadger]

I think more or less it's more that the RL and SSG have comparable per-shot damage. Strictly mathematically the rocket would do on average 90 damage + lets say 90 more for splash (how much splash isn't random, but it's dependent highly on a lot of variables), and the SSG would do on average 200 damage per shot if all pellets hit (20 pellets for 10 damage on average). In practice in Vanilla and vanilla-compat engines things get a lot weirder than that, due to the simple RNG, but it's not going to skew the two that far away from each other.

 

In terms of DPS, there's no doubt about it. The rocket launcher fires much faster than the SSG. The RL has an extra trick in that it can hit multiple targets without stealing the damage from another monster. If the SSG shoots two monsters and one takes 5 pellets, there is no possible way the other monster can take more than 15 pellets. On the other hand, with splash damage, there's no limits like that.

Edited March 11, 2019 by SaladBadger

[damerell]

7 minutes ago, Gustavo6046 said:

And the plentiness of ammo.

And the ability to fire it in close quarters without comedy ensuing. :-)

[H3XM0D]

53 minutes ago, Lila Feuer said:

Yeah, they usually kill the 300-1000 HP monsters in the same amount of hits regardless. Which is why the SSG is so damn powerful for sharing such a common ammo type.

It's my go to weapon of choice for Lost Souls and Pinky's!

[nrofl]

4 minutes ago, H3XM0D said:

It's my go to weapon of choice for Lost Souls and Pinky's!

SSG is pretty op. So much so I hesitate to put it in my maps sometimes.

[H3XM0D]

2 minutes ago, Rhebiz said:

SSG is pretty op. So much so I hesitate to put it in my maps sometimes.

I forgot to mention its efficacy against crowds of zombiemen and imps as well. Though I wouldn't say it's too OP, it's reload speed balances it's power imo.

[Lila Feuer]

The rocket launcher could've been OP if it wasn't for the fact explosives hurt you. 😁

It's easily among the fastest firing rocket launchers in any FPS alongside the Riveter from DUSK.

Edited March 11, 2019 by Lila Feuer

[H3XM0D]

1 minute ago, Lila Feuer said:

The rocket launcher could've been OP if it wasn't for the fact explosives hurt you. 😁

It's easily the fastest firing RL in any FPS (well, DUSK does have the Riveter).

oh my favorite is when a Lost Soul casually wanders in to your FOV just as you let one loose. Fun times!

[Revenant100]

One of the demons in Doom left such a great impression on Valve CEO Gabe Newell that it inspired the design for an (unfortunately cut) alien enemy in the game Half-Life, the Flocking Floater/Stingsail:

 

Given that we're talking about a gaseously-bouyant floating bulbous-headed red-ish/blue-ish lifeform that spits projectiles at foes in a true "cacophony", I think it's fair to assume that Gabe was talking about the Spectre.

Edited March 11, 2019 by Revenant100

[Cruduxy Pegg]

10 hours ago, Gustavo6046 said:

 

And the plentiness of ammo. Shells are way more available than rockets, even in double-ammo mode (e.g. ITYTD). Plus, shotgun zombies (former sergeants) drop shotgun ammo, but no monster drops rocket ammo (or a rocket launcher, for that matter).

 

Except that the Iwads have way too much ammo for all weapons and not just the ssg. The player doesn't even need to save more than enough cells for 3 BFG shots if they are really scared of cybers. What? Is the player always supposed to have 100 rockets for the deadly ambushes that are never coming?

 

10 hours ago, SaladBadger said:

I think more or less it's more that the RL and SSG have comparable per-shot damage. Strictly mathematically the rocket would do on average 90 damage + lets say 90 more for splash (how much splash isn't random, but it's dependent highly on a lot of variables), and the SSG would do on average 200 damage per shot if all pellets hit (20 pellets for 10 damage on average). In practice in Vanilla and vanilla-compat engines things get a lot weirder than that, due to the simple RNG, but it's not going to skew the two that far away from each other.

 

In terms of DPS, there's no doubt about it. The rocket launcher fires much faster than the SSG. The RL has an extra trick in that it can hit multiple targets without stealing the damage from another monster. If the SSG shoots two monsters and one takes 5 pellets, there is no possible way the other monster can take more than 15 pellets. On the other hand, with splash damage, there's no limits like that.

 

Except that the RL already has the higher mean damage on a single target. Average is a useless metric in systems with extreme outliers, such as doom's d8 damage system for projectiles. 

 

The SSG is just the most liked weapon because of its design. Once people realize they don't need to save ammo outside ammo starvation maps it falls behind because other weapons don't leave you open for free monster attacks.

Edited March 11, 2019 by Pegg

[FuzzySpaceRaptor]

7 hours ago, Pegg said:

 

Except that the Iwads have way too much ammo for all weapons and not just the ssg. The player doesn't even need to save more than enough cells for 3 BFG shots if they are really scared of cybers. What? Is the player always supposed to have 100 rockets for the deadly ambushes that are never coming?

 

 

Except that the RL already has the higher mean damage on a single target. Average is a useless metric in systems with extreme outliers, such as doom's d8 damage system for projectiles. 

 

The SSG is just the most liked weapon because of its design. Once people realize they don't need to save ammo outside ammo starvation maps it falls behind because other weapons don't leave you open for free monster attacks.

You must also account for the splash damage danger, though. Doom's action takes place at a number of ranges, and close range encounters tend to be more common than longer-range encounters. This depends on how you play, of course, but in the classic IWADs that's generally how it goes down. The rocket launcher might as well be unselectable at close range because few people would be stupid enough to use it there, while conversely the SSG excels at this range. So there's that.

[Vermil]

IIRC, In most source ports, hitscan attacks can hit the floor/ceiling.

 

But in vanilla doom, hitscans could not hit the floor and hence would 'run along' the floor/ceiling to the nearest wall.

 

This makes the DB shotgun more effective at range in vanilla doom than it is in most source ports.

Edited March 11, 2019 by Vermil

[HAK3180]

There are three that look like this. SW#PIPE is opposite SW#BROWN and SW#CMT. These are all SW1 textures.

 

[damerell]

14 minutes ago, HAK3180 said:

There are three that look like this. SW#PIPE is opposite SW#BROWN and SW#CMT. These are all SW1 textures.

 

I'm not sure why SW1BROWN is yellow-tinged (source port with coloured lighting); ordinarily it is the same grey colour switch as the others, being the same texture patch. Also SW#STARG uses this switch in Doom 1, although it has a different switch and background in Doom 2 because why should the same texture name mean the same texture in both games, eh?

 

I'm kind of torn about writing this next bit because you may know it already, but I'm not sure why someone who knew it would write what you did. All Doom textures are assembled from one or more underlying texture "patches". This saved considerable space in the IWADs when, to give a very obvious example, they wanted "that same wall, but with a switch on it", or to use the same switch on more than one kind of wall. Hence it's not surprising that these switches look the same; it's also easy when editing to put any switch you like on any wall (so easy I'm slightly surprised Doom Builder doesn't do it, and maybe it does).

[HAK3180]

@damerell, perhaps I was unclear on what I "just found out." All I was trying to point out is that for "PIPE" texture, the switch goes from down to up, whereas the other two go from up to down.

 

On the other hand (I believe) all the switches that have red/green have red in the SW1 and green in the SW2.

[Dark Pulse]

51 minutes ago, damerell said:

I'm not sure why SW1BROWN is yellow-tinged (source port with coloured lighting); ordinarily it is the same grey colour switch as the others, being the same texture patch.

Doom Builder is highlighting it, as it does when you have a wall selected to modify.

[Walter confetti]

Copied picture from the Heretic Neural Texture Pack thread, but is the first time that I see that the golem monster from Heretic have bandages covering it:

[Gez]

17 hours ago, damerell said:

I'm not sure why SW1BROWN is yellow-tinged (source port with coloured lighting)

Editor highlighting. DB2 and forks highlight in yellow. You can also see the DB crosshair for 3D mode.

 

If it were SLADE 3, the wall would be highlighted in blue.

 

17 hours ago, damerell said:

Also SW#STARG uses this switch in Doom 1, although it has a different switch and background in Doom 2 because why should the same texture name mean the same texture in both games, eh?

That's a problem with Doom 1 switches in Doom II. Since the engine crashes when it doesn't find a switch it's supposed to find, and they coded their switch tables to be made out of hierarchical supersets, they had to keep all the Doom 1 switch textures, but they could just keep them as dummies.

 

As a result, SW*BRN1, SW*STARG, SW*STON2, and SW*STONE are all copies of SW*BRCOM in Doom II. And you know what's worse? The patches that the original Doom 1 textures use are still there, so they could have kept them as they were originally...

https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Switch

 

1 hour ago, Walter confetti said:

Copied picture from the Heretic Neural Texture Pack thread, but is the first time that I see that the golem monster from Heretic have bandages covering it:

It was originally meant to be a mummy. Its sprites are named MUMM*, and in the source code the variants are referred to as MT_MUMMY, MT_MUMMYLEADER, MT_MUMMYGHOST, and MT_MUMMYLEADERGHOST; while its special effect actors are referred to as MT_MUMMYSOUL and MT_MUMMYFX1. Also if you look in the Heretic sprites you'll find shredded bandages near the golem sprites, that are unused in the game but were probably meant to be used when hurting it, kind of like the feathers of chickens. They probably thought it looked bad and removed the effect while forgetting to remove the sprites.

[Cruduxy Pegg]

Spoiler

 

TIL the artifacts in heretic were supposed to be named after their forgers\owners I assume. And the manual calls D'sparils armies the Order of the Triad. The city of the damned is also not where Corvus lived, but somewhere he traveled to in his search for D'sparil (I think that makes heretic 2's story an even bigger mess). Kinda hilarious to pretend Heretic and Rise take place in the same universe, only seperated by a long time after D'sparils demise, even though D'sparils order is most likely called that for worshipping the 3 serpent riders. 

Edited March 13, 2019 by Pegg

[SaladBadger]

I like how most of the artifacts are either just relatively mundane things (torch, quartz flask) or magical artifacts forged by legendary smiths, but the shadowsphere falls in the mundane category with no name associated with them.

 

clearly in the deep serpent riders lore, Shadowspheres are just a common part of reality, or perhaps even just some strange natural artifact that folk have learned how to exploit.

[Cruduxy Pegg]

Seeing as all disciples can use it on demand, No idea why they don't always keep it active it probably doesn't impress their society.  (beside while shooting beside balance reasons)

 

Bonus : The hexen manual references a few artifacts by the names they have in heretic (wings of wrath) even though it also states that they live in a completely different world at the start of the manual. It also states that dark bishops were extremely powerful and their strength grew ten folds after their dark conversion.. They must've been weaker than a squirrel seeing how their projectiles deal weaker damage than an afrit to the mage haha. It also spoils everything beside Korax's abilities, which sucks because you'll know the wyvern and Heresiarch before you ever see them start one attack.

Edited March 13, 2019 by Pegg

[KVELLER]

10 hours ago, Pegg said:

  Hide contents

 

 

Isn't the paragraph below "MONSTERS YOU'LL FACE" pretty much a 1:1 conversion from the Doom manual?

[Guest Unregistered account]

The Icon Of Sin's monster spawner cubes actually make an idle sound as they fly, and this is one of the sounds that plays upon quitting the game which I could never identify!

Edited March 15, 2019 by Unregistered account

[LordEntr0py]

1 hour ago, Kapanyo said:

The Icon Of Sin's monster spawner cubes actually make a sound as they fly, and this is one of the sounds that plays upon quitting the game which I could never identify!

It's also the sound you hear in every SF/Action movie for a large comet/fireball/whatever whizzing past.

Makes me think if the Icon of Sin every time.

[Empyre]

2 hours ago, LordEntr0py said:

It's also the sound you hear in every SF/Action movie for a large comet/fireball/whatever whizzing past.

Makes me think if the Icon of Sin every time.

It sounds like you are talking about the sound you hear when the cube is launched.  The cube makes another sound as it is flying through the air, and that is the sound that Kapanyo was talking about.

 

I have heard the cube-launching sound several times in movies myself.  Those movies must have used the same sound library that was used to find sounds for Doom.

[elend]

Oh yes, I noticed many "Doom sounds" in movies over the years. Especially the camel grunts from the Imps, as well as the platform movement sounds.

[SaladBadger]

all of them are specifically from Sound Ideas, a fairly well known sound library. much easier in practice to buy a precollected library of animal sounds, industrial machine sounds, etc so lots of places go for libraries like Sound Ideas.

[Maser]

So I am now on my 3rd playthrough of Final Doom because the first run was just to complete it.  Second run was to check if I still hated it.  And this run is because like a dumbass I forgot about the secret levels in both Plutonia and TNT.  I am now finding out that I really REALLY fucking HATE Heavy Weapon Dudes and Revenants! 

[Cruduxy Pegg]

Having fun and still at high health? Random wall reveals chaingunners behind you!

[Marlamir]

13 hours ago, elend said:

Oh yes, I noticed many "Doom sounds" in movies over the years. Especially the camel grunts from the Imps, as well as the platform movement sounds.

Don't forget about zombie sounds, this shit is in a lot of sci-fi movies