Things about Doom you just found out

[RonnieJamesDiner]

13 hours ago, MaxED said:

Looks like Doom cover art is a total ripoff of Eric and the Floaters cover art (Hudson Soft, 1983).

 

Early concept when Indiana Jones was actually the Doom guy. Name of the game was actually a reference to Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. 

[Rathori]

On 7/31/2019 at 4:36 PM, MaxED said:

Looks like Doom cover art is a total ripoff of Eric and the Floaters cover art (Hudson Soft, 1983).

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

Am I the only one seeing that the monsters in this picture have butts for upper back/shoulders?

Edited August 1, 2019 by Rathori

[The Nate]

What's hilarious is Eric and the Floaters is actually just the first version of Bomberman where he had a silly fedora.

[vanilla_d00m]

If a monster drops directly on you from that demon on the wall in doom ii (map 30) the spawning box thing... it will kill you instantly.

 

I been using zdoom, I havn't tried that level on other ports yet, this is an anoying find tho.

[ketmar]

this is vanilla feature, yeah: soul cube will telefrag you if you're standing on its destination point.

Edited August 2, 2019 by ketmar

[insertwackynamehere]

I think I’ve noticed that pose in a bunch of pulp fantasy art, the lone survivor standing above as they are swarmed by monsters, some looking back into the “camera”. Is there a term for it? I can’t think of examples off the top of my head but I started noting “oh that looks like Doom” whenever I would see that.

[Maximum Matt]

The Lordening.

[DynamiteKaitorn]

I recently found out MAP30 of DooM 2 has 2 really easy crashes. First crash is to simply let too many enemies spawn in, thus causing an overflow. Second method is to save your game right when a spawn cube is flying in the air. Once saved, leave DooM 2 and then restart the game and load your save. Once the cube lands BOOM crash.

[Solmyr]

Chaingunners keep their weapon in all of their death frames, unlike the other former humans and doomguy.

 

Cacodemon's optical nerve/muscle is actually a small intestine from the Baron of Hell corpse, the same goes for the guts wraped on the legs of a hanging corpse decoration.

Edited August 2, 2019 by Solmyr

[Gez]

7 hours ago, insertwackynamehere said:

I think I’ve noticed that pose in a bunch of pulp fantasy art, the lone survivor standing above as they are swarmed by monsters, some looking back into the “camera”. Is there a term for it? I can’t think of examples off the top of my head but I started noting “oh that looks like Doom” whenever I would see that.

I call it the weasels pose.

 

[Pegleg]

15 hours ago, vanilla_d00m said:

If a monster drops directly on you from that demon on the wall in doom ii (map 30) the spawning box thing... it will kill you instantly.

 

I been using zdoom, I havn't tried that level on other ports yet, this is an anoying find tho.

 

14 hours ago, ketmar said:

this is vanilla feature, yeah: soul cube will telefrag you if you're standing on its destination point.

 

I think that is hard-coded to only happen on Map 30. On other maps, while you can telefrag monsters, they can't telefrag you. They also can't telefrag each other--they just won't teleport in if the teleport destination is occupied.

[ketmar]

1 hour ago, Pegleg said:

I think that is hard-coded to only happen on Map 30. On other maps, while you can telefrag monsters, they can't telefrag you. They also can't telefrag each other--they just won't teleport in if the teleport destination is occupied.

you are telefragged by the soul cube, not by the monster. that is, it is soul cube codepoint who calls telefrag function, and then it spawns a monster.

[Ashley_Pomeroy]

On 7/21/2019 at 3:27 PM, Sgt Nate V said:

@Ashley_Pomeroy Lookie here!

 

I think that's the first time I've seen the full painting. These demons look as if they're attending a Beatles concert and Paul McCartney is about to stage dive:

 

 

I wonder if the Doom marine is famous in hell, and the demons are actually queuing up to be killed by him?

 

"Wait until I tell the folks back home that I was killed by HIM! That guy!"

[Ashley_Pomeroy]

12 hours ago, insertwackynamehere said:

I think I’ve noticed that pose in a bunch of pulp fantasy art, the lone survivor standing above as they are swarmed by monsters, some looking back into the “camera”. Is there a term for it? I can’t think of examples off the top of my head but I started noting “oh that looks like Doom” whenever I would see that.

 

The only thing that's missing is a woman in a chainmail bikini wrapping herself around Mr The Doom Marine's legs, but I've always had the impression he was too busy for that kind of thing.

 

I think someone pointed it out in one of the earlier pages, but the cover art is slightly unusual in that the main character seems to be on the back foot - he looks as if he's trying to retreat, almost as if we're the guy in the background, not the guy in the foreground. Duke Nukem 3D had a similar cover but Duke's pose was much more confident. Ditto Wolfenstein 3D.

 

 

I assume Id wanted something that looked like a Frank Frazetta / Boris Vallejo painting, but because Id was still very small at the time they had to choose someone with a less busy schedule. While looking up fantasy art I stumbled on this essay that argues in favour of Frazetta:  

https://www.sequentialartistsworkshop.org/blog/2015/09/3388

 

The gist of it is that Vallejo's art was technically great but very "pretty" whereas Frazetta was better at action and kineticism, which sums up the cover of Doom - it's not very good on a technical level but it stands out because it's in the middle of a tough fight. It doesn't look like a bunch of fitness models posing.

 

Er, on topic, something I must have instinctively almost known forever, but earlier today I realised consciously for the first time that if you have an invisibility artefact, Revenant homing missiles still come straight at you, which makes the artefact even more of a liability. I realised this while playing/enduring map03 of "screen night of the thunderstorm and the central heating", which isn't very good but I downloaded it purely because of the name:

https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/Ports/v-z/ztheresa

 

Also, Map15, Industrial Zone. A couple of days ago I went back to revisit it after reading a convincing argument in this thread that the official way you're supposed to jump on the lava lake switch platform is from from west, using a pair of torches on the floor as a guide. In all the years playing Doom II I had never noticed this secret before:

 

I think it's because I've only played the level a few times - it's large and irritating - plus the secret isn't obvious even with the automap turned on, plus it only has a backpack and a box of rockets. and there's no special trick to opening it (you just press a random bit of wall).

[D88M3R]

On 7/29/2019 at 3:25 AM, Maser said:

So, I recently played through all the maps in the PSX port of Doom including the exclusive secret maps and I must say the map called "Club Doom" is the dumbest thing, but at least has some really catchy music!

How did you do it? I have been wanting to play the psx Doom on pc for years!

[The Nate]

30 minutes ago, D88M3R said:

How did you do it? I have been wanting to play the psx Doom on pc for years!

 

[Pegleg]

3 hours ago, Ashley_Pomeroy said:

I wonder if the Doom marine is famous in hell, and the demons are actually queuing up to be killed by him?

 

"Wait until I tell the folks back home that I was killed by HIM! That guy!"

 

Perhaps infamous is more apt. Although, remember everything that was written about the Doomslayer (in Hell) in Doom 2016? Yeah, I would say he's pretty well known in Hell.

 

With regard to the Baron in the middle of the picture (not the one with his tongue hanging out, not the one firing a ball from his palm, the other one), I can't decide if he's giddy with delight or if he just saw homeboy get shot and he's thinking, "Wait! What? That could happen to me? I did not sign on for this!"

 

 

1 hour ago, Ashley_Pomeroy said:

I've always had the impression he was too busy for that kind of thing.

 

Read the book, Knee Deep in the Dead. Flynn Taggart and Arlene kiss at one point during their time in Hell, if memory serves me. Not to mention when they meet again, they're both naked and covered in blood in the Deimos Base. Of course, I can hear the arguments now.

• "That's not Doomguy!"
• "That's not a chainmail bikini!"

 

2 hours ago, Ashley_Pomeroy said:

we're the guy in the background

 

I've heard that theory before.

[wrkq]

7 hours ago, ketmar said:

you are telefragged by the soul cube, not by the monster. that is, it is soul cube codepoint who calls telefrag function, and then it spawns a monster.

 

Not true.

The flying cube-spawner creates a new monster then uses P_TeleportMove to put it in place, so technically it's that monster which steps on top of player (or another monster).

https://github.com/id-Software/DOOM/blob/master/linuxdoom-1.10/p_enemy.c#L1986

P_TeleportMove checks for mobs in the destination area via P_BlockThingsIterator+PIT_StompThing.

https://github.com/id-Software/DOOM/blob/master/linuxdoom-1.10/p_map.c#L162

PIT_StompThing has a safety check - players can telefrag on any map, monsters can telefrag only on MAP30.

https://github.com/id-Software/DOOM/blob/master/linuxdoom-1.10/p_map.c#L101

 

So if you make a vanilla wad with a MAP30 which includes "standard" teleporters the monsters could step on, they will telefrag a player (or another monster) at teleport destination.

 

Thinking about it, if not for this check that makes teleports simply "not work" for occupied destinations anywhere outside of MAP30, the typical sound-triggered monster teleport traps would result in majority of the mobs just telefragging each other leaving the player with few to deal with.

 

So the MAP30 exception was yet another last minute hack(tm) because otherwise they'd have to care to move or otherwise cancel-spawning of a monster from the cube. Vanilla MAP30 has no walkable teleports in the big room so the downside was irrelevant.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Pegleg said:

4 hours ago, Ashley_Pomeroy said:

we're the guy in the background

 

I've heard that theory before.

 

My guess is that we're neither - after all according to the plot Doomguy was stuck guarding the ship while rest of the marines were being slaughtered by demons, and he moved in only after they were all dead. So that'd be two of the Nameless Wimpy Marines. Explains the green armor (unlike Multiplayerguys.)

Edited August 3, 2019 by wrkq

[ketmar]

@wrkq eh. i should stop thinking that sourceports can be used as a reliable source to talk about vanilla. especially if this is my own soruceport. ;-)

[wrkq]

9 minutes ago, ketmar said:

@wrkq eh. i should stop thinking that sourceports can be used as a reliable source to talk about vanilla. especially if this is my own soruceport. ;-)

 

I mean... if Vavoom rewrote this to have the floating cube check for obstructions in the spawn destination, kill everything in there if needed, then spawn the monster, that's objectively better solution from every PoV except compatibility with someone's mega clever map which would somehow require monsters to telefrag each other for progression.

 

It's just not what was hacked into vanilla as a very narrow scoped solution to very narrow scoped problem in ten minutes in 1994.

"Oh shit, guys? I put some debug prints, and the crash with the new boss map happens because when the ground's occupied the cube can't put a monster on the ground, and leaves the mobj structure in invalid coordinates. How can I cancel the spawned monster?"

"You can't, we never needed that... you'd need to clean up all the references manually... wait, you said the ground's occupied? Do we have any teleports in that room?"

"No, only the one from starting room to boss room."
"Fuck it... just add an exception for the map in the teleport stomp check and don't waste more time on it."

Edited August 3, 2019 by wrkq

[ketmar]

1 minute ago, wrkq said:

if Vavoom rewrote this to have the floating cube check for obstructions in the spawn destination, kill everything in there if needed, then spawn the monster

it basically does this in `A_SpawnFly()`:

  EntityEx newmobj = Spawn(type, Target.Origin, vector(0.0, 0.0, 0.0));
  if (newmobj) {
    // make new monster hate the same thing eye hates
    // note that this differs from ZDoom which copies friendliness from target spot
    if (Master) newmobj.CopyFriendliness(Master, false);
    if (newmobj.SeeState && newmobj.LookForPlayers(true)) newmobj.SetState(newmobj.SeeState);
    // telefrag anything in this spot
    if (!newmobj.IsDestroyed()) {
      newmobj.bTelestomp = true;
      newmobj.TeleportMove(newmobj.Origin);
    }
  }

that is, it forces spawned monster to telestomp. technically, it is still monster that telefrags the target (so player get the correct obituary), but it is soul cube code that forces telefragging. also, no special map number checks are done there.

[wrkq]

Yeah, the way to do equivalent of this in vanilla would have to be, like, have a global variable (eg spawnfly_teleport)

then have A_SpawnFly() do { spawnfly_teleport = 1; P_TeleportMove(blah); spawnfly_teleport = 0 }
and have PIT_StompThing() look for that variable instead of map number.

But that's already edits in multiple places (and probably like five or more because you also need to initialize that gvar on game start, map start, load savegame, etc).

 

Alternatively you'd have to change calling convention for multiple common functions to pass a special parameter to allow stomping, or "manually" implement the whole "scan and kill" routine inside A_SpawnFly() or something.

 

The original hack is a one-line change not requiring support from rest of the code, so easy to see why they went for that :)

Edited August 3, 2019 by wrkq

[kb1]

24 minutes ago, ketmar said:

...also, no special map number checks are done there.

In vanilla, there is a check for map number, in PIT_StompThing.

[ketmar]

3 minutes ago, kb1 said:

In vanilla, there is a check for map number, in PIT_StompThing.

yeah. in Vavoom, it was replaced with per-monster "can telestomp" flag. that's what i meant (and i honestly thought that vanilla does the same).

Edited August 3, 2019 by ketmar

[EANB]

1 hour ago, wrkq said:

 

Thinking about it, if not for this check that makes teleports simply "not work" for occupied destinations anywhere outside of MAP30, the typical sound-triggered monster teleport traps would result in majority of the mobs just telefragging each other leaving the player with few to deal with.

 

I remember one wad (I can't remember the name, possibly Hell Revealed or another famous wad) used this for dramatic effect on map 30 by making a bunch of zombiemen teleport in before an Arch Vile, showering the area with blood and gibs. Looked pretty cool.

[Graf Zahl]

3 hours ago, ketmar said:

yeah. in Vavoom, it was replaced with per-monster "can telestomp" flag. that's what i meant (and i honestly thought that vanilla does the same).

 

The 'telestomp' flag originates from Hexen.

Doom, being true to resolving problems with hacks, added a map check instead of a clean option to P_TeleportMove.

 

BTW, while GZDoom retains the MAP30 thing as a map option, P_TeleportMove adds a 'telefrag' parameter, making the spawn cubes independent of the map flag.

 

[kb1]

5 hours ago, ketmar said:

yeah. in Vavoom, it was replaced with per-monster "can telestomp" flag. that's what i meant (and i honestly thought that vanilla does the same).

No reason you can't have both checks. Useful if you support a "vanilla mode":

if ((mobj.flags && MF_CAN_TELESTOMP) || (vanilla_mode && gamemap == 30)))
{
  Stomp_em;
}

...if you care about such things.

[ketmar]

4 minutes ago, kb1 said:

if you care about such things

lucky me -- i absolutely don't care. k8vavoom is not trying to emulate each vanilla glitch and quirk. it is "doom by the spirit", not "doom by the letter". ;-)

[kb1]

27 minutes ago, ketmar said:

lucky me -- i absolutely don't care. k8vavoom is not trying to emulate each vanilla glitch and quirk. it is "doom by the spirit", not "doom by the letter". ;-)

I kinda got that - that's why I said it like I did :) But, either way, the map 30 mandatory telestomp gets the victim out of the way, so the new monster can spawn without being stuck. Without mandatory telestomp, what's the alternative? Does the player get stuck inside a monster?

Maybe this is more appropriate:

if ((mobj.flags && MF_CAN_TELESTOMP) || (gamemap == 30)))
{
  Stomp_em;
}

I suppose, as an alternative, you could just not spawn the monster. What I'm saying is that, in boss cube maps, you have to handle the stuck mobj issue in some manner...2 bodies cannot occupy the same space...or, at least, it sucks when it happens. Carmack's map==30 solution was flimsy and hard-coded, but it did solve the Doom2 map30 problem. So, I'm curious: What does k8vavoom do on map 30?

[Pegleg]

12 hours ago, wrkq said:

Nameless Wimpy Marines

 

According to the story, the rest of the squad fights for hours before finally succumbing. Sure, they didn't single-handedly take on the forces of Hell like Doomguy, but I wouldn't call them "Wimpy," as if they were all cut down the minute the doors closed.