Things about Doom you just found out

[Individualised]

1 minute ago, hfc2x said:

Well, I guess that's a thing I just learned about Doom lol.

I suppose it is possible that it's from a very early version of Doom 2 that had removed entities with the same entity IDs as the removed artefacts, but I doubt it. Here's some screenshots:

[nicolas monti]

1 hour ago, hfc2x said:

Well, in reality, I think it's more complicated than just "accidental". Alphas were meant to be sent to industry professionals or certain gameplay testers approved by id Software back then, not public release. So yes, I suppose they just built the game with all the assets they had, which included that map.

 

Thing is, I'm mostly saying because all the evidence points at the level being made when a different texture set was available for the game at the time, due to those textures correctly coinciding with "hellish" textures in alpha v0.4, which also perfectly match with what you can see in Doom Builder in the final version of the IWAD. I remember asking Tom Hall directly about some of these details many years ago, but not precisely about this map in particular. I'd have to probably go digging for those emails, but might as well just go and ask him again.

 

I have no idea if that early version of Spirit World is a Tom Hall map. It could be, since it sort of matches his style, including how you can almost perfectly encircle the entire map into a squarish shape, and the overall level lacks verticality and is mostly comprised of 90-degree walls, as well as placement of bonus items in what appears to be treasure caches. However, it lacks something that's very important for a Tom Hall map, and it's the attempt at using sector lighting to create "realistic" light sources.

 

If it is a Tom Hall map, then it was definitely meant for Doom 1, and almost certainly supposed to be a hell level. If not, then it's almost certain (to me, at least) that it was always intended for Doom 2.

 

No idea how the levels were supposed to be ordered, and considering Sandy changed the names for most of the maps, it's probably just a coincidence.. although I think the people developing the PS1 version of Doom were onto something here lol.

 

Well, if Hall was indeed the author of that map, then I guess it's the best candidate for the slot. Remember they came up with those names even before they made any maps for the game.

 

Man it would be great if you could ask Tom Hall if he started Spirit world as he's not ccurrently credited. If this is the case, also to ask him what was the original texture scheme for it since the alphas almost do not contain hell textures other that a couple with skulls. The only large room in that map looks somewhat like a chapel to me.

 

@Faceman2000 I'm not sure if those marble variations and the additional eye switches in the alphabeta resource file of our project are original or some addition for the project itself.

[Faceman2000]

36 minutes ago, nicolas monti said:

@Faceman2000 I'm not sure if those marble variations and the additional eye switches in the alphabeta resource file of our project are original or some addition for the project itself.

The eyes that look back and forth were in Romero’s asset dump; I don’t think we know for sure how they would’ve been used by NaturalTvventy and Xaser’s interpretation in LostRes seems valid enough to me. As for the brown marble (I assume that’s the marble variation you’re referring to?), there was a single blank brown marble texture in the asset dump; It’sNatureToDie made the other varieties based on it.

[hfc2x]

On 8/23/2023 at 6:25 PM, Individualised said:

I suppose it is possible that it's from a very early version of Doom 2 that had removed entities with the same entity IDs as the removed artefacts

I had forgotten about the COMM1 version of the map. I'm more familiar with the MAP21 version, which has Doom 2 monsters and the like. Funny thing, that later version is also full of Doom 1 textures that don't exist in Doom 2, like ASHWALL and SKULWAL3.

 

So I went and had a closer look at COMM1, and I think it's a Sandy Petersen map. The overall architecture and room shapes look more like something you'd see in The Shores of Hell, like with E2M5 or E2M6. If it's indeed a Petersen map, it must have been one of the first maps he made for the game upon joining id Software, since most of the score items were removed after the Press Beta version.

 

I suppose the name "COMM1" means "Commercial 1", considering COMM2 in the same folder for unused maps, is what eventually became MAP10 in "Commercial Doom" AKA Doom 2.

 

On 8/23/2023 at 8:19 PM, nicolas monti said:

Man it would be great if you could ask Tom Hall if he started Spirit world as he's not ccurrently credited. If this is the case, also to ask him what was the original texture scheme for it since the alphas almost do not contain hell textures other that a couple with skulls. The only large room in that map looks somewhat like a chapel to me.

Yeah, I'll definitely ask him. Thing is, this is probably a thing that Romero would be a better fit for. Although like I said above, this really looks like a Petersen map. Here, have a look and compare:

 

[SealSpace]

On 8/23/2023 at 7:14 AM, Shepardus said:

The limit for hitscans (both your chaingun and enemy chaingunners) is 2048 units: https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Hitscan

 

(This is where it's defined in the source code.)

 

Yeah but in GZDoom, the limit for your Chaingun's hitscan shots are significantly increased compared to its vanilla version.

[Faceman2000]

1 hour ago, hfc2x said:

Yeah, I'll definitely ask him. Thing is, this is probably a thing that Romero would be a better fit for.

If you’re reaching out to them, could you ask if either of them has any further images of unreleased maps? I know Bethesda has asked Romero not to release anymore assets, but I wonder if he would consider screenshots of map layouts fair game.

[hfc2x]

I'm pretty sure asking for anything that counts as material (yes, even screenshots) would set him for a lawsuit.

[Individualised]

2 hours ago, hfc2x said:

Funny thing, that later version is also full of Doom 1 textures that don't exist in Doom 2, like ASHWALL and SKULWAL3.

Towards the end of development they had to cut back on a lot of textures for disk space reasons, that's why those levels use a lot of textures not present in the final version of Doom 2 and part of why Doom 2 looks so generic with levels that don't look like their episode themes

[SupremeBioVizier]

 _

Edited August 25, 2023 by nocisum

[nicolas monti]

3 hours ago, hfc2x said:

I had forgotten about the COMM1 version of the map. I'm more familiar with the MAP21 version, which has Doom 2 monsters and the like. Funny thing, that later version is also full of Doom 1 textures that don't exist in Doom 2, like ASHWALL and SKULWAL3.

 

So I went and had a closer look at COMM1, and I think it's a Sandy Petersen map. The overall architecture and room shapes look more like something you'd see in The Shores of Hell, like with E2M5 or E2M6. If it's indeed a Petersen map, it must have been one of the first maps he made for the game upon joining id Software, since most of the score items were removed after the Press Beta version.

 

I suppose the name "COMM1" means "Commercial 1", considering COMM2 in the same folder for unused maps, is what eventually became MAP10 in "Commercial Doom" AKA Doom 2.

 

Yeah, I'll definitely ask him. Thing is, this is probably a thing that Romero would be a better fit for. Although like I said above, this really looks like a Petersen map. Here, have a look and compare:

 

 

I agree that the southern part of Command Center looks much alike in style, flatty boxy rooms connected via 64 unit wide corridors and some 45 degree angles. All in all if spirit world is a Petersen map it must be one of his early attempts at mapping as we now he can do better. 

Edited August 25, 2023 by nicolas monti

[Pechudin]

On 8/23/2023 at 9:30 PM, hfc2x said:

• "Entrance To The Dying God"
• "Belly of The Beast"
• "Heart of Darkness"
• "The Mind of God"
• "Gates of Dis"
• "Fleshalls" [sic]
• "Temple of The Summoner"
• "The Unholy Shrine"
• "Castle of The Dukes"
• "Magma Deeps"
• "Hell Hole"
• "Spirit Drains"
• "Shadow Walk"
• "Darkaan Tower"

 

Doom the way Tom Hall named it? Could be a CP.

[taufan99]

1 hour ago, Pechudin said:

Doom the way Tom Hall named it? Could be a CP.

There's also the ongoing Tom's Halls CP, so there's that.

[RjY]

On 8/23/2023 at 2:33 PM, rita remton said:

when mapping in doom2 limit-removing format, if a joined control sector for line action 5 (floor raised to lowest ceiling) is positioned in an area with negative x and negative y coordinates, the effects of that control sector is nullified. tested with ultimate doom builder r4060, nodebuilder bsp-w32 (normal). note: i did not use the default nodebuilder zennode because my map would break when using zennode (tested and confirmed).

 

I think this is wrong, or I have misunderstood. At least, I was not able to reproduce it in a test map negativeRaiseLIC.wad

 

 

in which there are four pillars, joined to control sectors placed around the origin, one in each quadrant of the plane. They all raise normally to the intended adjacent height in pr+ -cl2. If I understand your claim correctly, the bottom left control sector (in the negative-x negative-y quadrant, corresponding to the pillar on the near left in first-person view) should not move.

[rita remton]

On 8/27/2023 at 10:26 PM, RjY said:

 

I think this is wrong, or I have misunderstood. At least, I was not able to reproduce it in a test map negativeRaiseLIC.wad

 

 

in which there are four pillars, joined to control sectors placed around the origin, one in each quadrant of the plane. They all raise normally to the intended adjacent height in pr+ -cl2. If I understand your claim correctly, the bottom left control sector (in the negative-x negative-y quadrant, corresponding to the pillar on the near left in first-person view) should not move.

@RjY, my dad asked me to post the problem here. the map is as per attachment, please load with my grid textures file (also in attachment) in doom: doom2 (doom format) in udb since limit-removing. linedef 315 works in this map (at the nukage pit as one of the 3 triggering linedefs) as long as the control sector for it (the triangle with a small square attached) is in the positive xy quadrant. but if moved (using the "vertices mode" in udb) to the negative xy quadrant, linedef 315 (and the lowering of pillars) no longer works when tested in crispy doom. had to post a more complete map for the problem to be seen. we still don't know the reason why. tq for your interest and thorough testing.

 

[attachment removed]

Edited August 29, 2023 by rita remton
attachment removed

[rita remton]

@RjY, i have updated the post above. i apologize for the earlier inconclusive post. tq.

[RjY]

9 hours ago, rita remton said:

my dad asked me to post the problem here.

 

Funnily enough I had seen the initial version of your post and was wondering if it was worth asking if you were willing to post the map or at least send it to me privately (as at first it seemed you preferred to keep it unreleased). But your dad beat me to it ;).

 

9 hours ago, rita remton said:

the map is as per attachment, please load with my grid textures file (also in attachment) in doom: doom2 (doom format) in udb since limit-removing.

 

Thank you very much. I do like those dev textures. Unfortunately I am not able to use UDB, it requires more time than I am willing to spend to get working on linux.

 

9 hours ago, rita remton said:

linedef 315 works in this map (at the nukage pit as one of the 3 triggering linedefs) as long as the control sector for it (the triangle with a small square attached) is in the positive xy quadrant. but if moved (using the "vertices mode" in udb) to the negative xy quadrant, linedef 315 (and the lowering of pillars) no longer works when tested in crispy doom. had to post a more complete map for the problem to be seen. we still don't know the reason why. tq for your interest and thorough testing.

 

Let me just check I am understanding what you are trying to achieve. I observe that first, line 315 insta-lowers the pillars by 25 units to floor height 167, then line 1826 slowly lowers the pillars to the nukage at height 0. Is this what is meant to happen? But you are saying, when the control sector is moved to the other side of the origin, then, in Crispy, line 315 does not move the pillars, leaving them at 192? Is that accurate?
 

[ I presume you are doing the 25-unit insta-drop so a sufficiently nimble player cannot cross all the pillars while they are still high enough to allow stepping up into sector 166... which is pretty clever, but well beyond my skill :).) ]
 

Anyway I loaded the map into Eureka and, in vertex mode, moved the triangle piece of sector 185 and adjoined control sector 136 so that vertex 354 (the right angle point of the triangle) was at (-1024, 1024). Unfortunately even with this change I observed the same result: an insta-drop from 192 to 167. So unfortunately, I am not able to reproduce the problem (as I understand it).
 

Is there any chance you still have the broken version of the map? It would help me not to have to fiddle with it to reproduce the bug before I can attempt to debug it. [ Edit: wait, I think I might have this figured out anyway, see below ]
 

--------

 

FWIW I noted a few other things that most likely do not affect the situation but are worth mentioning as potential issues

• the ceiling of the control sector 136, at 167, is below its floor height 192. AIUI this is usually not too much of a problem, but Eureka's map checker flagged it, so I shall mention it.
• the trigger line 1936 inside sector 185, being self-referencing, makes the sector self-adjacent. This means when calculating some height of an adjacent sector the engine will include the sector itself, which is usually not what you want. (Something not to fix immediately but just to bear in mind.)
• the trigger lines 315 and 1826 are close together. It is possible if you run over the pillars fast enough that the two might get activated simultaneously, in the same P_BlockLinesIterator loop. In that case IIRC they will be processed in blockmap line list order regardless of the order the player crossed them. It is feasible that the line 1836 (type 38 W1 lower to lowest) is activated before 315 (type 5). Thus when the latter is processed the target sector is already "active" and the second action ignored. But because you are in vanilla compatibility, the line action is still "used up".

Actually, thinking about this as I write it, I now believe this last point may be the most likely explanation of the situation. (Isn't rubber-ducking great..!?) Moving the control sector further southwest moves the blockmap origin, and changes membership and ordering of the blockmap line lists. It is coincidence that the control sector is being moved to the other side of (0,0). So, that is my hypothesis: another instance of the infamous U.S. Mustard Halls teleporter bug of BTSX_E1M20, as first described by anotak. (I am still annoyed that I was beaten to its solution ... ;).)

 

[rita remton]

On 8/28/2023 at 4:35 PM, RjY said:

 

Funnily enough I had seen the initial version of your post and was wondering if it was worth asking if you were willing to post the map or at least send it to me privately (as at first it seemed you preferred to keep it unreleased). But your dad beat me to it ;).

yes, i did prefer to keep it unreleased at first. however, after discussing with dad and the map was like just 2% completed, i guess it was ok to share - a small sacrifice to learn something new (and learnt we did) :)

 

On 8/28/2023 at 4:35 PM, RjY said:

Thank you very much. I do like those dev textures. Unfortunately I am not able to use UDB, it requires more time than I am willing to spend to get working on linux.

you're welcome. that's ok. and thanks for the compliment :)

 

On 8/28/2023 at 4:35 PM, RjY said:

Let me just check I am understanding what you are trying to achieve. I observe that first, line 315 insta-lowers the pillars by 25 units to floor height 167, then line 1826 slowly lowers the pillars to the nukage at height 0. Is this what is meant to happen? But you are saying, when the control sector is moved to the other side of the origin, then, in Crispy, line 315 does not move the pillars, leaving them at 192? Is that accurate?

 

[ I presume you are doing the 25-unit insta-drop so a sufficiently nimble player cannot cross all the pillars while they are still high enough to allow stepping up into sector 166... which is pretty clever, but well beyond my skill :).) ]

yes! precisely :)

 

On 8/28/2023 at 4:35 PM, RjY said:

Is there any chance you still have the broken version of the map? It would help me not to have to fiddle with it to reproduce the bug before I can attempt to debug it.

thw map given in the attachment is the "broken" version.

 

On 8/28/2023 at 4:35 PM, RjY said:

FWIW I noted a few other things that most likely do not affect the situation but are worth mentioning as potential issues

• the ceiling of the control sector 136, at 167, is below its floor height 192. AIUI this is usually not too much of a problem, but Eureka's map checker flagged it, so I shall mention it.

this was intentional so that when line 315 is triggered (w1 floor raised to lowest ceiling), the platforms are dropped instantaneously. this effect is also commonly used to make "3d bridges" in vanilla doom.

 

On 8/28/2023 at 4:35 PM, RjY said:

• the trigger line 1936 inside sector 185, being self-referencing, makes the sector self-adjacent. This means when calculating some height of an adjacent sector the engine will include the sector itself, which is usually not what you want. (Something not to fix immediately but just to bear in mind.)

i see. initially i thought that trigger 1936 (w1 floor raise to higher floor) would only effect the floor at tag 9 (for the 2 popup monsters in sector 206). thanks for the heads up!

 

On 8/28/2023 at 4:35 PM, RjY said:

• the trigger lines 315 and 1826 are close together. It is possible if you run over the pillars fast enough that the two might get activated simultaneously, in the same P_BlockLinesIterator loop. In that case IIRC they will be processed in blockmap line list order regardless of the order the player crossed them. It is feasible that the line 1836 (type 38 W1 lower to lowest) is activated before 315 (type 5). Thus when the latter is processed the target sector is already "active" and the second action ignored. But because you are in vanilla compatibility, the line action is still "used up".

Actually, thinking about this as I write it, I now believe this last point may be the most likely explanation of the situation. (Isn't rubber-ducking great..!?) Moving the control sector further southwest moves the blockmap origin, and changes membership and ordering of the blockmap line lists. It is coincidence that the control sector is being moved to the other side of (0,0). So, that is my hypothesis: another instance of the infamous U.S. Mustard Halls teleporter bug of BTSX_E1M20, as first described by anotak. (I am still annoyed that I was beaten to its solution ... ;).)

i read about the [us mustard halls teleporter bug] from the link you gave me, and yes, most probably "blockmap line list order" is what caused linedef 315 not to trigger. from what i read, the triggering linedefs must be at least (16mu+1mu) apart. got it! :)

many2 thanks and best wishes to you for the awesome thorough analysis. and i was glad i shared my map somewhat a bit early. learnt a lot actually - never heard of "blockmap line lists" before (only "blockmap errors" that caused screen tearing, blockage, etc). note: my dad sent his thanks and best regards. tq again :)

Edited August 30, 2023 by rita remton

[plums]

Decorations that block movement internally have a height of 16, and you can't pass over them because of no things over things. But apparently they can still block projectiles, as long as they're positioned so that you hit the 16 units that is their actual height.

Spoiler

 

what the fuck

Edited August 29, 2023 by plums

[Henso Akira]

Ok so, you know that there is dead bodies in texture pack right ? And basically there is one of them who's been took from an actual dead body image of two people and they mixed it together to create one body, i heard it in a "disturbing doom iceberg" video.

[Edward850]

1 hour ago, Henso Akira said:

Ok so, you know that there is dead bodies in texture pack right ? And basically there is one of them who's been took from an actual dead body image of two people and they mixed it together to create one body, i heard it in a "disturbing doom iceberg" video.

This is not true at all. The hanging bodies were made from GI Joes.

[Ravendesk]

3 hours ago, Henso Akira said:

Ok so, you know that there is dead bodies in texture pack right ? And basically there is one of them who's been took from an actual dead body image of two people and they mixed it together to create one body, i heard it in a "disturbing doom iceberg" video.

That video has too many inaccuracies to put it mildly. Please watch this:

 

[EraserheadBaby]

That it's almost an entirely different game with Brutal Doom.

[Henso Akira]

1 hour ago, Ravendesk said:

That video has too many inaccuracies to put it mildly. Please watch this:

 

Oof my bad y'all

[SupremeBioVizier]

looking through brutaldoom64 texture files and found some funny stuff

[ETTiNGRiNDER]

I'm sure I must have known this in the past, but I just came to the realization that for who knows how long, I've had the Doom 2 map titles "The Gantlet" and "The Focus" reversed in my mind.  Shows how often I replay these levels any more I guess.

 

It probably doesn't help that to me at least the names make more sense that way.  MAP03 has an obvious "focus" with the chaingun structure in the main memorable area having a bunch of doors/walkways surrounding it, while MAP04 feels like running a "ga(u)ntlet" with the gunners in the shutter room and on the leadup to the exit.  I guess the "Gantlet" of MAP03 is supposed to be the stairwell/walkway in the aforementioned main area, but I'm a bit at a loss as to what "Focus" MAP04 is supposed to have, unless it's joking on the shutter windows being like a camera shutter and the gunners in the closet have you in their "focus"... maybe?

[Faceman2000]

38 minutes ago, ETTiNGRiNDER said:

I'm a bit at a loss as to what "Focus" MAP04 is supposed to have

The working theory is that the name “Focus” is a leftover from when what eventually became Map22 filled that slot.

[Individualised]

On 9/1/2023 at 3:36 PM, ETTiNGRiNDER said:

I'm sure I must have known this in the past, but I just came to the realization that for who knows how long, I've had the Doom 2 map titles "The Gantlet" and "The Focus" reversed in my mind.  Shows how often I replay these levels any more I guess.

 

It probably doesn't help that to me at least the names make more sense that way.  MAP03 has an obvious "focus" with the chaingun structure in the main memorable area having a bunch of doors/walkways surrounding it, while MAP04 feels like running a "ga(u)ntlet" with the gunners in the shutter room and on the leadup to the exit.  I guess the "Gantlet" of MAP03 is supposed to be the stairwell/walkway in the aforementioned main area, but I'm a bit at a loss as to what "Focus" MAP04 is supposed to have, unless it's joking on the shutter windows being like a camera shutter and the gunners in the closet have you in their "focus"... maybe?

As explained earlier in this thread, the map titles in Doom 1 and Doom 2 are for story purposes only and don't necessarily match up with the actual maps that take those slots. When Doom 2's map order was completely redone towards the end of development, they didn't take the map names not making sense anymore into account. MAP04 originally held what is called The Catacombs in the final. It's named that way because the combat is focused around the central area.

Edited September 3, 2023 by Individualised

[TheUltimateDoomer666]

There is an early/alternate version of the Hexen box art that appears in several different official sources, albeit not in very high quality. In this alternate art, the dark figure on the cover appears to have a slightly visible mouth. A drawstring is also present in the image.

 

Hexen95:
 

Spoiler

 

(Also, the Hexen95 installer uses the earlier version of Winnowing Hall that matches the console versions of the track rather than the in-game version; there are more snares in the opening section.)

 

id Stuff (even though I took this screenshot, I didn't realize at first that the art was different):

 

Spoiler

 

Interestingly, the id Stuff program shows a picture of the actual game box, which implies the art was going to be used for the box at one point.

 

The alternate art is also used a few times in the official Hexen strategy guide, but not on the front cover. The image used in the book is extremely dark and is not very big, but the drawstring is still clearly visible, and it's possible to just barely make out the figure's mouth.

Edited September 4, 2023 by TheUltimateDoomer666

[Individualised]

It wasn't just Doom95 that decided to replace the main menu of the game with a generic Windows UI wizard? Like I know why it's there (so you can launch custom .WADs and select levels without using the command line) but did they even know they were developing a port of a game? As silly as it sounds you kinda are missing out on part of the experience if you don't get to see the game's title screens and menus, especially if this was your introduction to the game. Those TITLEPICs were meant to be viewed. I know it's not a big deal at all but I just find it kinda funny. Like you're going to play a fast-paced, action-packed game but the main menu looks like a dry Microsoft Office application. I never used Doom95 that much so I don't remember if you could just launch into the game normally.

 

If I remember correctly you could also skip levels in Doom95 with the press of a key instead of using the idclev cheat. Combined with that Doom95 is essentially a debug mode sandbox version of Doom.

Edited September 4, 2023 by Individualised

[ludicrous_peridot]

That in E1M8 you do not need to stand inside the "dark room" to be hurt down to 10% for level to exit. You can also idclip through the wall and go "North" far enough, and the effect will start occurring, while you are there in the nothingness.