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I found a Doom engine for game maker!


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Maes said:

The closest Doom equivalent to a "game maker" tool would be Slige and abusing copy & paste from prefabs. A 'building blocks" approach, if you wish.

Isn't it pretty much a general consensus that a badly designed map (but made entirely BY HAND) is preferable to a copy & paste or Slige affair?

That's not what I meant. Blaming the medium for bad output is what I'm referring to, not making a direct comparison.

Maes said:

The point is that such "for dummies" tools allow people who'd have no business making games/maps/music/whatever to shit out a "production" almost as easily as they'd drop a big steamin' one, magically taking all the effort of learning about 3D graphics, sound libraries, data structures etc. away from them.

On paper, this sounds like a Good Thing, as it would allow non-technical people which however MIGHT have a good game design (or another sector's) idea, to express themselves somehow, something which under normal circumstances would be impossible.

Arguing against the existence of something because it can be abused is utterly pointless, and goes far beyond the scope of what I meant.

Maes said:

But, alas, that's the same concept behind crud such as Fruity Loops or Site Build It!, and we know how "well" these usually turn out... the result is usually spamming the internet with mediocre and same-y crap, rather than helping diamonds-in-the-rough move their first steps in an industry. Someone who's serious about learning a craft or a trade is always better off learning to use "real" tools.

You keep throwing around the word 'usually' as if it solidifies your points. Yes, people 'usually' suck at just about everything. You're still blaming the medium for bad output. Also, maybe they aren't serious and just want to have a bit of fun?

Having played a bunch of Gamer Maker games over the years, I could absolutely list a off quite a few fun, solid titles, ranging from simple platformers to shooters to expansive Metroidvania adventures. Are there a lot of shitty Game Maker games? Sure, but there are a lot of shitty games that have been made from scratch, too. From a gaming standpoint, I don't care if the game was programmed from the ground up or put together in Klik & Play.

Also, having used FL Studio for years now, I can attest to the quality of the music that it is capable of producing, if, just like anything else, you are willing to put in the time and climb the learning curve. Likewise, I could list off artists that have had their music featured in commercial games or are relatively big names in music, who also just happen to use FL Studio.

I get the feeling that you've never used either of these programs or knowingly experienced the results of hard work put into using them, and are just listing off programs that most people say are garbage but have never used themselves.

As for Site Build It, I've never used it because I have zero interest in web design, but I'd be willing to bet that somebody can and has made quality websites with it.

Maes said:

If you want e.g. a child to develop its drawing skills, you're better off giving it a set of free-hand drawing utensils, not pre-made rubber stamps, stickers and coloring books.

I don't disagree with that aspect, if the person in question is truly interested in taking their skills that far. Sometimes people just want to get from A to C without going through B, for instance, forgoing the fundamentals of programming so they can focus on their game's artwork or music.

I refer to this method as "doing what I can with what I've got", and it has worked for countless individuals throughout history. All the fundamental skills in the world won't make somebody a success.

Why anyone would have a problem with this approach is beyond me, because the end result can be just as good or better, and depriving somebody who has a true artistic vision of the ability to see it through just because they're not taking an in-the-box approach is ludicrous.

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To be honest, I installed Game Maker to try out the examples of custom FPS that came with the tutorial. But I uninstalled Game Maker after a few minutes because the games wouldn't load due to the fact that this was just the free verison of Game Maker, and I had to buy the full version. Besides, I'm not much of a coder anyways.

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Good games can be made with Game Maker (the Rockman 7/8 FC fan-made remakes use it).

I can't say anything about FL Studio since I honestly don't have experience with any music production of any sort, but as far as Game Maker goes, there is the possibility to make quality software from it even despite the disadvantages. It's not exactly surprising... whether it's the ideal environment is really what's put into question (for me, the non-portability of Game Maker projects is an instant turn-off before any of its other misfeatures).

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@Megalyth: OK, I got your point, but the "it's not the tool that's crap" argument has been applied time and again to other tools characterized by a median perceived output of low quality, even if examples of good work exist. Want one of the most infamous?[flame shields on] Visual Basic. Frontpage. WYSIWYG HTML editors. We all can name quite a few examples of really bad stuff done with those, and for some reason they all have a stigma attached: that of the noob, wannabe's tools. YMMV of course, depending on your trade/industry.

I acknowledge that there can be a grey area, which can delve into the philosophic....

Are the tools themselves that are bad? Usually not, as there often are e.g. examples of quality work even in VB...so at least this aspect is debatable.

Perhaps, do tools that are "too easy" to use or "promise fast results" attract far too many mediocre wannabes/rotten apples that spoil the whole basket? Most definitively.

Usually the truth is somewhere in the middle: the tools may not be inherently bad, but may encourage (or even enforce) bad practices which are not viable in the long run, impose a rigid way of doing things, or may make it too hard to progress beyond a certain level (usually all those things combined).

@esselfortium: I may have been too harsh on FL, but last time I checked it (admittedly, a loooong time ago), it was clearly a spin-off of those late 90s "techno maker" style music programs that worked pretty much like dumbed-down mod trackers. Maybe it has grown to something more refined ever since, but tools at the "wannabe" level always have existed and still do, even if FL no longer is a typical example.

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Condemning dumbed-down software doesn't really make sense, though, because it's like yelling at parents for letting their kids play with finger paint or buying them one of these.

When I was a kid, I got this limited, loop-based piece of crap and loved it. It was awful and no one should ever attempt to use it for anything serious, but it got me interested in a direction I might never have taken otherwise. Without it I can say with almost 100% certainty that I never would have become a musician, bought Propellerhead Reason, or gone to school for music production.

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The problem is not when people use dumbed-down software while in their infancy (literally and figuratively) or just for shits and giggles, it only becomes one when they start considering their produce good enough to share or even to sell.

Again, I cite the SLIGE example. Sure, some maps are infinitely better than what a total noob could make by hand, but at the same time they have a certain quality to them that makes them instantly recognizable and almost universally reviled. Other "user friendly" tools, including Game Maker, almost universally share this property, in one way or another.

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