The Ultimate DOOM: No End In Sight - Released

[Spectre01]

Amph said:

there is no super shotgun here right?

Well, not with that attitude there isn't!

[Keyboard_Doomer]

Glad to finally see the final release of this mapset. Of course, we couldn't resist and decided we'll be playing the first half on Thursday Night Survival this week.

The session starts tomorrow at 19:00 GMT and we invite everyone who stumbles upon this post. Announcement in the multiplayer subforum with more info is coming in a few hours.

[Xaser]

Aces! Hopefully everything's kosher for ZDaemon this time around; I'll see if I can do some extra testing tonight so rhinoduck doesn't have to fix all my stuff again. :P

[Salt-Man Z]

Holy Hannah, E4 is just brutal. (Saying this as someone who adores E1-E3.) It took me well over an hour to figure out how to get the red key in E4M2 (sneaky! but maybe a bit obtuse) and well, I guess that wasn't good enough: now I have to solve the Puzzle of the Red Door? Get outta town.

[NaturalTvventy]

Salt-Man Z said:

Holy Hannah, E4 is just brutal. (Saying this as someone who adores E1-E3.) It took me well over an hour to figure out how to get the red key in E4M2 (sneaky! but maybe a bit obtuse) and well, I guess that wasn't good enough: now I have to solve the Puzzle of the Red Door? Get outta town.

Shit my friend, finding the red key is the easy half of puzzle to the secret exit. I shall warn you and say that it's not difficult to mess up the red door secret exit puzzle and make it impossible, requiring a redo. I really shouldn't have included such a cruel puzzle on such a large map. I never claimed to know what I was doing with this whole "level design" thing. Now excuse me while I go replay e4m2 for the 7300th time.

[Salt-Man Z]

Ha! Yeah I'm guessing I'm locked out. I've got everything killed (barring She Who Guards the Secret Exit) and all the secrets but one.

A beast of a map, for sure, but a darn memorable one.

[Keyboard_Doomer]

Xaser said:

Aces! Hopefully everything's kosher for ZDaemon this time around; I'll see if I can do some extra testing tonight so rhinoduck doesn't have to fix all my stuff again. :P

There are missing p2-p4 starts in E4M6 and the W1 teleport line in E2M4 (linedef 3523) can become a problem if the first player to reach it has 10% HP or less and dies immediately on the damaging floor in sector 684. Don't know if that actually results in the map being stuck but we have scripts to deal with that in case it does.

Here is a tool from the master himself which can identify these types of problems very quackly quickly.

[NaturalTvventy]

Keyboard_Doomer said:

There are missing p2-p4 starts in E4M6

Dang. I might have to send idgames a quick update to fix that.

[Marcaek]

Hopefully the WAD hasnt poliferated to all the multiplayer wadhosts yet, that causes a lot of trouble when singleplayer projects have hotfixes and such because it leads to authentication mismatches. If it has I'll do my part in harassing the Zandro hosts to update it but bear this in mind for the future!

[Xaser]

There's no such thing as a bug-free release. This is a problem with the wad hosts, and probably something worth a bigger discussion, as it's contributing pretty heavily to the "don't ever release a wad" mantra that prevents stuff from landing on /idgames.

[EDIT] fo' responsiveness:

Keyboard_Doomer said:

Here is a tool from the master himself which can identify these types of problems very quackly quickly.

Damn, that looks handy! Thanks for the linkage -- this seems super-worth spreading the word about.

[Marcaek]

I'll be more clear then: consider asking multiplayer people to test your wads in survival when you have a final release candidate to catch any last minute bugs. Not all of them will be caught, but more eyes to look increases your chances, and this one in particular would have been immediately on map start.

This is directed at anyone: the multiplayer survival base is still big enough that it should be considered!

[NaturalTvventy]

Marcaek said:

I'll be more clear then: consider asking multiplayer people to test your wads in survival when you have a final release candidate to catch any last minute bugs. Not all of them will be caught, but more eyes to look increases your chances, and this one in particular would have been immediately on map start.

This is directed at anyone: the multiplayer survival base is still big enough that it should be considered!

Because of the missing e4m6 starts, do you guys create a custom wad, or skip the level? I feel like that would be a good multiplayer map.

[Marcaek]

Honestly, there is a flag for allowing players to pass through each other which is usually enabled. If it were left alone it would only affect older ports in coop, maybe you could reupload the zip with a separate fix wad thereby keeping the current WAD unchanged? That would prevent any possible checksum fudgery.

[NaturalTvventy]

Marcaek said:

Honestly, there is a flag for allowing players to pass through each other which is usually enabled. If it were left alone it would only affect older ports in coop, maybe you could reupload the zip with a separate fix wad thereby keeping the current WAD unchanged? That would prevent any possible checksum fudgery.

I have my doubts that It'd make it to idgames in time. Here's a quickfix:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9n9YNu8ulsmeS15b2RRM1M3cWM/view?usp=sharing

[NuMetalManiak]

Up to E3M6, looks like I can't go anywhere in this particular map on lower settings since some of the teleport destinations are flagged for UV/NM only. (685, 768, 769, 770, 771, 772, 777, 778, 779, 780, 781, and 782 are the ones)

[NaturalTvventy]

Getsu Fune said:

Up to E3M6, looks like I can't go anywhere in this particular map on lower settings since some of the teleport destinations are flagged for UV/NM only. (685, 768, 769, 770, 771, 772, 777, 778, 779, 780, 781, and 782 are the ones)

Whoopsie! Well that's a cool trick to know about if I ever want to make a map that teleports a player along different paths depending on difficulty settings. I'll fix it & check other maps ASAP, then release a bug fix version. Thanks so much for finding this!

[Keyboard_Doomer]

I wonder if it would be possible to delay the bugfix around 2-3 weeks for the possibility to include some fixes for multiplayer ports?

We will host the second part of the WAD until then on TNS and possibly find some previously unnoticed bugs.

We found one minor bug last week - it's possible to get stuck in E2M6 in the room with plasma gun if some other player crosses the linedef that stops the crushers while you're inside. I'm also still not sure if the problem in E2M4 I mentioned here can result in an unfinishable map, seems like it can.

Regarding the problem of authentication mismatches if you update the WAD - if it's of great importance for you to avoid this you can name the final zip and the WAD something like NEIS-FIN, NEIS-V2 or NEIS-FIX and stay within the 8 character limit required by idgames.

[NaturalTvventy]

Keyboard_Doomer said:

I wonder if it would be possible to delay the bugfix around 2-3 weeks for the possibility to include some fixes for multiplayer ports?

We will host the second part of the WAD until then on TNS and possibly find some previously unnoticed bugs.

We found one minor bug last week - it's possible to get stuck in E2M6 in the room with plasma gun if some other player crosses the linedef that stops the crushers while you're inside. I'm also still not sure if the problem in E2M4 I mentioned here can result in an unfinishable map, seems like it can.

Regarding the problem of authentication mismatches if you update the WAD - if it's of great importance for you to avoid this you can name the final zip and the WAD something like NEIS-FIN, NEIS-V2 or NEIS-FIX and stay within the 8 character limit required by idgames.

I'm afraid there's already a 1.1 version up on idgames that adds the e4m6 player starts. e3m7 also got a very minor upgrade that may or may not break compatibility. Hopefully you can get the word out for folks to nab the newest version.

I'm going to hold off a week or two for a new release now that people are really diving into this thing (after 5 years of beta releases;). I really don't want to make a habit out of uploading a new version every 3 days. I'm sure that wouldn't go over well with the moderators.

Thanks for pointing out the bug Keyboard_Doomer.

[Xaser]

Holding off on an update is also a good idea so I can contribute some fixes too. I'd have liked to get that E2M4 fix (indeed a map-breaker) into v1.1. :(

Keyboard_Doomer said:

Regarding the problem of authentication mismatches if you update the WAD - if it's of great importance for you to avoid this you can name the final zip and the WAD something like NEIS-FIN, NEIS-V2 or NEIS-FIX and stay within the 8 character limit required by idgames.

If /idgames had some sort of version tagging system such that it would make sense to start adopting semver-ish naming conventions for wads like "neis_v1.2.wad", I'd be all for it, but the current state doesn't easily allow for such aside from basic name fudging (no linking of versions, etc.) -- not to mention we'd have to tell everyone to nuke or ignore their existing copies of "NEIS.wad" since that's out there. :<

This whole situation is fuggy as hell, but I guess there's no easy solution from anyone's end that doesn't involve time machines.

[SavageMessiah]

How the heck do you get the red key on E1M3? Even looking in GZDB I can't figure it out. It looks like you have to hit switch 2288 to get thing started but there's no way down there that I can see :|

[kmxexii]

Cardboard said:

How the heck do you get the red key on E1M3? Even looking in GZDB I can't figure it out. It looks like you have to hit switch 2288 to get thing started but there's no way down there that I can see :|

it's a combination of several secrets gelling together.

Spoiler

the first thing iirc involves leaping through a window in that starting staircase bit to the visible upper platform which will open up several smaller sections of the map. from here i believe there is a timed trigger associated with a nearby lamp that will lower an elevator to bring you up to the holes that let you wake up the imps in the interim hallway that leads to the red key door. you'll need at least one of them alive, too. there's a secret much, much later in the level that leads to the teleporter that drops you on the other side, i think, and it's related to that 3 x 3 door grid.

but i figured this one out a few days ago, so my memory might be fuzzy on the absolute order. looking forward to the rest of your secret devilry, naturaltvventy

[SavageMessiah]

Gah! I figured it out. The stupid jumpy project brutality imps screwed it up. That'll teach me to play a new wad with a gameplay mod without playing it vanilla first like I usually do :|

I have a feeling I'm going to have problems with the later secrets, too. Monsters are for killing, not for puzzles! :)

[NaturalTvventy]

Cardboard said:

Gah! I figured it out. The stupid jumpy project brutality imps screwed it up. That'll teach me to play a new wad with a gameplay mod without playing it vanilla first like I usually do :|

I have a feeling I'm going to have problems with the later secrets, too. Monsters are for killing, not for puzzles! :)

Yea, mods will certainly break this wad in places. Freelook shooting can mess a few places up.

[NaturalTvventy]

Scenes of a cleared out E4M6...

https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B9n9YNu8ulsmYmJkN29SakZwRU0

https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B9n9YNu8ulsmTWNZb0V1V1ExWGc

https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B9n9YNu8ulsmNzRwcTBNa0hNVUU

https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B9n9YNu8ulsmWnJCTC1hT2ROMEE

[SavageMessiah]

Huh. I just had E4M7 break on me. I crossed linedefs 2895/6 and instead of lowering the bars and insta-raising the specter pits as seems to be intended, it just "clunked" and did nothing. I stumbled forward into a miserable pit of HOMs and biting mouths :(

This was in prboom+ 2.5.1.4 complevel 3, HMP. Seems like someone would have run into this already if it was a normal map bug....

[grommile]

One of the secrets in E1M1 has ridiculously tight timing because you have to deal with a lift timer while trying to beat a door timer.

Was it perhaps meant to use an S1 Stay Open switch?

[esselfortium]

NaturalTvventy said:

Scenes of a cleared out E4M6...

https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B9n9YNu8ulsmYmJkN29SakZwRU0

https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B9n9YNu8ulsmTWNZb0V1V1ExWGc

https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B9n9YNu8ulsmNzRwcTBNa0hNVUU

https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B9n9YNu8ulsmWnJCTC1hT2ROMEE

Love it! The city balcony view is great. Cool 3D arch setup in the next shot, too :)

[tourniquet]

Since essel bumped this anyway i'm dropping in to say that E4M6 was my absolute favorite in the set. Super quirky and obscure map, loved it all the way. The rest of the set was amazing too of course.

[Salt-Man Z]

E4M6 is where I took a breather a bit ago; that start scares the crap outta me. :D

Absolutely loved E4M4 and E4M5, though.

[NaturalTvventy]

Cardboard said:

Huh. I just had E4M7 break on me.

Bummer. Yep, that's a bug. If Xaser wants to take the time to fix it we'll have to release a v 1.3, probably after the Doomworld megawad club plays this next month.

grommile said:

One of the secrets in E1M1 has ridiculously tight timing because you have to deal with a lift timer while trying to beat a door timer.

Hmm, I don't find it that tight, and I'm a guy who hates timing puzzles. I just added a link to 100% secrets for all maps to the original post, so check the demo to see if you're doing it as intended.

Thanks for the kind words essel, tourniquet, and Salt-Man. E4m6 was the last map I made, and it's my favorite, but my favorite is always the last map I made.