Why Are Secret Exits Hard Coded to Maps 15 and 31?

[Dragonsbrethren]

scalliano said:

I wouldn't have it any other way, frankly.

Yeah, I wouldn't either. I have my beefs with ZDoom, but none of them are on the modding side of things.

[Graf Zahl]

Sodaholic said:

That, and certain people refused to commit already written code to the official SVN repository just because the features weren't to their liking

That's nonsense.

The reason the code doesn't get committed is that it needs to be tested first and nobody has time for that.

I can't just take any submission and blindly add it to the engine without making sure that it won't cause problems.

Sodaholic said:

...but he tells me that he's grown tired of modding for the Doom engine for anything advanced, as it's just far too limited of an engine. Can't say I blame him, I'm starting to feel the same way, and have started to learn how to use the UDK instead.

That's something entirely different and honestly one of the biggest problems ZDoom suffers from: overambitious modders who are intent to work outside the limits of the engine. They feature-request endlessly to get the stuff they want for their specific needs with 2 potential outcomes - new feature creep or whining that the devs are so mean to them by denying their requests. Sorry, but sometimes it's necessary to draw the line. Endless feature creep will eventually destroy the engine.

[Jonathan]

With regards to the purpose of the -file switches and other support for modding within the original Doom engine, I remember reading interviews with Carmack where he explicitly stated that it was intended to more easily enable the kind of amateur modifications that people were doing to Wolf 3D. I don't think it was intended for 3rd part licencees, as they would have presumably been supplied with the full tool-chain and could just build replacement .exes and iwads.

I get the impression that Carmack's, and id's, position on modding evolved in response to what they saw in the community, who continually pushed beyond what they expected. The didn't anticipate the original modding of Wolf 3D, but when it happened they added some support into Doom to make it easer. I imagine they might have released more tooling, but as I understand it, they were using Next workstations for development at the time, so perhaps they figured there wasn't much point making their level editor and other tools available?

However, people wanted even more control than the -file switch provided, and so they created things like DeHackEd to further customise the game. I'm pretty sure Carmack's on record as saying he wasn't keen on DeHackEd, as binary hacking of executable files is a little hairy, and that's partially what drove him to make QuakeC available as a way to radically change the game. Thus ushering in the golden age of game modification.

As much as I love Doom, I think the original Quake represents the high point of amateur game modification. The engine was powerful and flexible enough to allow people to make almost anything they could imagine, resulting in things like Quake Rally and even attempts at side-scrolling platformers, but non-professionals could still approach and even match the production values of the original game.

Nowadays, mods like Black Mesa Source have big, specialised teams, and (very) long development cycles. The DIY approach of earlier modding has been replaced by what is essentially a semi-professional, indie games scene. The results are often impressive, but some of the charm has gone.

[Blastfrog]

Graf Zahl said:

That's nonsense.

The reason the code doesn't get committed is that it needs to be tested first and nobody has time for that.

I can't just take any submission and blindly add it to the engine without making sure that it won't cause problems.

Sorry about that, it's been a while since I've read anything about it and that's how I heard it went down from other members. I'll be more careful to actually research things more closely next time.

Graf Zahl said:

That's something entirely different and honestly one of the biggest problems ZDoom suffers from: overambitious modders who are intent to work outside the limits of the engine. They feature-request endlessly to get the stuff they want for their specific needs with 2 potential outcomes - new feature creep or whining that the devs are so mean to them by denying their requests. Sorry, but sometimes it's necessary to draw the line. Endless feature creep will eventually destroy the engine.

You know, that's a pretty good argument. I think the problem lies with ZDoom's reputation of being "THE" engine to go to for anything more advanced than what other ports can offer, and oftentimes they overestimate what ZDoom can really do. Until people learn that ZDoom isn't meant to be infinitely limitless, they'll keep begging for new ways to tweak the engine in almost every way possible.


I do want to apologize for being one of those people in the past, I was under the misconception that ZDoom is supposed to be infinitely limitless. I've learned over time what ZDoom's true intent is, and for anything complex I know I'm gonna need a different engine.

Hell, it might even be a good idea to explicitly state the philosophy of ZDoom's modability in one big announcement. People will surely bitch and whine once you put your foot down in that way rather than stating it on individual occurrences, but hopefully it'll stop the stupid and overdemanding feature requests.

[Graf Zahl]

Jonathan said:

Nowadays, mods like Black Mesa Source have big, specialised teams, and (very) long development cycles. The DIY approach of earlier modding has been replaced by what is essentially a semi-professional, indie games scene. The results are often impressive, but some of the charm has gone.

Thank god we still have Doom, don't you think?

[Jonathan]

Graf Zahl said:

Thank god we still have Doom, don't you think?

Absolutely. In fact, I think big part of the longetivity of the Doom community is the ability of pretty much anyone to sit down and create something for the game, without needing to be a professional 3D artist or master a whole complicated tool-chain.

A couple of years ago, I looked into doing some editing for Half Life 2. The SDK is easy enough to obtain and the documentation is extensive, but I found it's basically impossible to create something simple, like a new level or a single new monster, and slot it into the original game. Everything is geared around teams making new TCs. It's unfortunate, because it means there's no easy way for beginners to make something self-contained and 'real'.

Compare that with Doom. A beginner can download Doom Builder, draw out some sectors, and be playing it in the game in a matter of minutes. It's just a lot more encouraging and fun.

[Maes]

Jonathan said:

With regards to the purpose of the -file switches and other support for modding within the original Doom engine, I remember reading interviews with Carmack where he explicitly stated that it was intended to more easily enable the kind of amateur modifications that people were doing to Wolf 3D. I don't think it was intended for 3rd part licencees, as they would have presumably been supplied with the full tool-chain and could just build replacement .exes and iwads.

I wouldn't promptly dismiss or support that statement without access to the actual interviews. As it is often the case in such matters, there might be subtle wording involved that might make all the difference in the world. My idea so far was that id took and kept a de-facto "diplomatically distanced" stance from the entire Doom modding scene. They didn't frown upon it, but didn't move a finger to help it, either (other than the inclusion of -file, OK).

[Jonathan]

Maes said:

I wouldn't promptly dismiss or support that statement without access to the actual interviews. As it is often the case in such matters, there might be subtle wording involved that might make all the difference in the world. My idea so far was that id took and kept a de-facto "diplomatically distanced" stance from the entire Doom modding scene. They didn't frown upon it, but didn't move a finger to help it, either (other than the inclusion of -file, OK).

OK, I've tracked down the source, it's from the answers Carmack gave to Slashdot in response to various user-submitted questions (from 1999! Clearly my memory isn't as bad as I thought it was).

http://slashdot.org/story/99/10/15/1012230/john-carmack-answers

The relevant question/answer is this one:

7. Scott Francis[Mecham asks:
Recently someone posted about their experience in determining the file structure of the Doom WADfile. How did you feel when people were discovering how to modify Doom, from building new levels, to changing the executable itself(dhacked) originally without any information from id? In your opinion, is the modding community a valuable place for creating future game developers?

John Carmack Answers:
The hacking that went on in wolfenstein was unexpected, but based on that, DOOM was designed from the beginning to be modified by the user community.

The hacking that went on with the leaked alpha version was obviously not approved of, but after the official release I did start getting some specs and code out. I had sent some things out early on to a couple of the people that had done tools for wolfenstein, but in the end it was pretty much a completely different set of people that did the major work with DOOM.

The original source I released for the bsp tool was in objective-C, which wasn't the most helpful thing in the world, but it didn't take long for people to produce different tools.

Dhacked was a bit of a surprise to me, and I always looked at it as something that maybe shouldn't have been done. I'm not very fond of binary editing an executable. It clearly showed that people were interested in more control, so it probably argued for the greater freedom given with quake.

I still remember the first time I saw the original Star Wars DOOM mod. Seeing how someone had put the death star into our game felt so amazingly cool. I was so proud of what had been made possible, and I was completely sure that making games that could serve as a canvas for other people to work on was a valid direction.

A doom/quake add-on has become almost an industry standard resume component, which I think is a Very Good Thing. The best way to sell yourself is to show what you have produced, rather than tell people what you know, what you want to do, or what degrees you have.

In the modern gaming era, it is very difficult for a single person to produce a complete looking demonstration game from scratch. It does happen, but a much more reasonable scenario is to do an add-on that showcases your particular talents, whether they are in coding, design, or media. You want to be able to go to your prospective employer and say "There is a community of ten thousand people actively playing a mod that I wrote in my spare time. Give me a job and I will be able to devote all of my energy to gaming, and produce something vastly superior."

[Phobus]

DuckReconMajor said:

I feel like a dumbass for using the release version of ZDoom now.

To be fair, I stick to the official releases too. The one exception has been with ZDCMP2, as towork on that I needed to use thesame bleeding-edge stuff as everybody else. When the next ZDoom version comes out, I'll be sure to move onwards and upwards. Until then, I'll stick to 2.5.0, which does a lot more than I'd want most of the time anyway!

[Sirius104x]

Sorry to wake up such an old thread but have there been any map packs where they put the secret exit in other than level 15? Like through some kind of dehacking method or using an advanced engine (perhaps GZDoom can do this among its many new features?).

I swear I recall playing some map pack once where the exit wasn't it in map 15.

[Xaser]

A wide variety of ports support UMAPINFO nowadays, which lets you put secret exits wherever you please. Eviternity II is a recent major non-GZDoom release that makes good use of it (putting a secret exit in each episode), though that's just scratching the surface. Sky's the limit, these days.

[bofu]

57 minutes ago, Sirius104x said:

Sorry to wake up such an old thread but have there been any map packs where they put the secret exit in other than level 15? Like through some kind of dehacking method or using an advanced engine (perhaps GZDoom can do this among its many new features?).

I swear I recall playing some map pack once where the exit wasn't it in map 15.

In Dominus Diabolicus, I kept the secret exit in MAP15, but also added an additional secret map accessible from MAP29. As Xaser said, there are quite a few wads that have typically added secret maps. Any megawad that has more than the standard 32 maps is likely to have done this. Whispers of Satan also has something similar, I believe, though it was made in a time when only ZDoom supported its additional secret maps.

 

As for why mappers might choose to keep the secret exit in the MAP15 slot: probably to be nice to players who have come to expect it, honestly.

[Stabbey]

EDIT: Damn it, this is why necromancy is discouraged, I'm not entirely awake yet and just wasted time replying to an insanely old post. The question which bumped it could have been a perfectly fine stand-alone topic.

 

On 6/6/2012 at 9:47 AM, Graf Zahl said:

Commercial software development is a completely different business. If you don't need something you don't do it. End of story.

That's why secret exits, automap names, intermission texts and their locations are hardcoded. It's a lot quicker for the developers than to cook up a good definition format.

Also, considering the overall sloppiness of Doom's code it's quite clear that no time was spent on elaborate definition management. It had to serve the released game, nothing more.

The big question, though, is, why did the early ports like Boom, not address these configurability issues? They still persist to this day in PrBoom+. Only the more advanced ports eventually addressed them.

 

This. There are a lot of things which are missing from the standard doom actions which "should have been" there but aren't. For instance, line action 48 is "Scroll Texture Left," which creates an effect of the wall texture moving left.

 

There is no "Scroll Texture Right" function in vanilla doom, nor "Scroll Texture up" or "Scroll Texture Down," even though those are seemingly obvious extensions of the function. Why? Because stuff was added into the code only on an as-needed basis, and no one thought they needed that.

 

Also missing "obvious functions":

• WR Light Change to Darkest Adjacent
• SR Light Change to Darkest Adjacent
• SR Light Change to Brightest Adjacent
• WR Ceiling Raise to Highest Ceiling
• S1 Ceiling Raise to Highest Ceiling
• SR Ceiling Raise to Highest Ceiling
• SR Ceiling Lower to 8 above Floor
• S1 Teleport
• SR Teleport
• W1 Teleport (silent)
• WR Teleport (silent)
• W1 Teleport (silent, monsters only)
• WR Teleport (silent, monsters only)
• ...and so on.

It was 1992-1993 and they were a small team, they weren't thinking so much about the big picture or ease of modification for users.

Edited April 4, 2024 by Stabbey
oops

[Maximum Matt]

Similar-but-related (and I've ranted about this before): why were the special tags on monsters only able to work on specific maps? There's the tag for walls coming down after every baron is dead on E1M8, every spider mastermind on E4M8, walls blazing open for every cyberdemon on E4M6, the 'end level' tags on E2M8 and E3M8, and of course the aracnotron and mancubus tags on map07.  It would seem that having the freedom to put these tags on these monster classes in ANY level would open up new dimensions of level building/enemy encounters, and I only ask this because the goddamn Commander Keens, a friggin joke 'enemy', has a tag that works on every level.  I don't get it.

[june gloom]

I'm not really a coder (I've dabbled at best) so I can't really speak to that end of this discussion, but I can say as someone more interested in the design end of things that I suspect that Doom II was never really meant to have "true" secret levels at all -- the two secret levels we got were both (bad) recreations of the first and last levels of Wolfenstein 3D's shareware episode, bodged in the dead middle of the campaign as an Easter egg (hence the rather convoluted process to find MAP31 in the first place.) It honestly might be the start of id Software's long history of being self-referential, with Dopefish in particular turning into one of those little gaming shibboleths that have spread far beyond its original source, similar to the 451 keycode originally made famous in System Shock but seeing use in games as far from System Shock as Transistor -- and trying to use it gets you an achievement in Blackout Club.

 

Personally I like secret levels as added challenges or offering something special you can't get anywhere else -- Doom 64's a good example of both. The Wolfenstein levels not so much.

Edited April 5, 2024 by june gloom

[LoatharMDPhD]

On 6/6/2012 at 9:40 AM, Six said:

A secret exit isn't very secret if you're already aware of which map it's situated before you've even played a megawad, this is one of my pet peeves. I could understand that things needed to be cut to reach deadlines, but as trivial as secret exit location is, it couldn't of been that difficult to code in its own line action for both map 31 and 32.

// well luckily we have UMAPINFO to remedy this...

[Pure Hellspawn]

Mock 2 used them back in '03. secret in map 11, and 37 at the minimum.

https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Mock_2:_The_Speed_of_Stupid

 

Both Golden Souls are also very creative with secret exits (and exits).

Edited April 10, 2024 by Pure Hellspawn