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[Cacatou]

Well I’m a bit late in joining this but the maps are short so here are my brief reviews of this not so memorable WAD.

MAP01: I liked the distinct Underhalls vibe this map had but it shows errors such as an invulnerability for such a weak opposition. The design was nice and it was a reasonable start. 6/10

MAP02: Horrible. Terrible. I hated this stupid switch hunt in a mazey layout along with that stupid revenant that surprised me a bit. 3/10

MAP03: Better but still annoying. Searching around for all those switches and getting the rocket launcher when I’d already killed everything. 4/10

MAP04: Boring as hell besides the start which was nice. Inescapable pits again cause annoyance. Running around a big toxic pit is not my idea of fun. 4/10

MAP05: Another crappy switch-hunt features and there is a ton of plasma which is entirely unnecessary because of the amazing “strength” of the opposition. Oh yeah there’s another invulnerability too. 4/10

MAP06: Annoying but I slightly enjoyed it. Plus the arch-vile gave me a nice fright although the crushers were more of a nuisance than a threat. 5/10

MAP07: Found the secret on the first playthrough. The only replay value this map has is to try to complete it in 0 seconds. I was hoping for something like Dead Simple. Disappointment. 1/10

MAP08: Died a few times. Found how to solve it and rushed through. Bad execution of an okay-good concept. 3/10

MAP09: Hate is a strong word but it sums up everything I feel about this map. Atrocious running around again in mazes but with damaging floors now. 0/10

MAP10: Okayish map that isn’t too memorable. 5/10

MAP11: Now this is a turn-around. I enjoyed this map a lot. The revenant horde was the best part of the WAD yet. 8.5/10

MAP12: Very mediocre map. I run about for a bit. Find all the keys and exit soon enough. 5/10

MAP13: Downtown-esque map that was quite good. A bit tougher opposition could have made this map even better. Not bad. 7.5/10

MAP14: Okay. Average map with the obligatory mazes of course but on the plus side there was a fun encounter with an arch-vile with a shotgun only. 6.5/10

[elic]

Map13: Fun 1995 style city map. The puzzles were good at the gamplay was good.

Map14: Ugh, back to the boring maze maps. Not only do all the mazes look the same, but there's a lot of copy paste. The only interesting room was the start, with that cool table (?) and fireplace. The rest of the map was junk.

[ComicMischief]

Clearly I am doing this wrong with my approach of devoting more than a handful of sentence fragments per map appraisal. Will try harder next time. :3

[glenzinho]

Nah, ComicMischief, you're doing just fine!

About copy + paste, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember there being any editors that had a copy and paste feature back in the infancy of Doom modding, not even for Things. Shit was so primitive back then that you could fart or sneeze and your wad would be screwed up just like that. The first editor I've seen with copy and paste is DB.

[purist]

dobugabumaru said:

Nice job on getting caught up Purist! It'll definitely be more fun going through 2 maps per day now.

You're right, it does! It feels a little like having a Doom advent calendar.

@glenzinho: I peppered the walls with my chaingun but must have missed the support texture. I thought something was up there as it never made the grunt noise when I tried using it. How stupid to have a gun activated switch on a texture that is use activated every other time it's present in the level!

ComicMischief said:

Clearly I am doing this wrong with my approach of devoting more than a handful of sentence fragments per map appraisal. Will try harder next time. :3

I've enjoyed reading your posts so don't feel the need to shorten them if that's what you're suggesting.

MAP13

This is the best one so far. The city was fun to run around and I felt like I was making the most of my arsenal by chaingunning the sniping hitscanners and saving my shells for imps. The blue key trick from MAP01 made a reappearance here to aquire the PR, cells and megasphere, which was cool. As usual there's a bit of a key hunt but that's always preferable to a switch hunt and it didn't feel too laboured compared to previous horrors. Decent map.

MAP14

Another semi non-linear map which starts you in a hub but removes all advantages of non-linear play by copy-pasting each branch area so it feels like you're running down a hall in an old Scooby Doo cartoon. That aside the map was quite tastefully textured and had a nice atmosphere. I dropped into the AV zone first off and that put me suitably on edge creeping around the corridors. Disappointedly, there was no reason for the nerves as the AV was the only moment of threat. Teleporting without warning is another Klie trademark that I'm pleased never caught on as standard practice with the rest of the mapping community.

[Capellan]

Back in 1994, when these levels were being made, editing tools lacked a lot of the conveniences they have today. I remember when DEU gained the ability for you to say 'insert a line and split the sector' and 'insert a vertex and split the line' as single commands. Before that, if you wanted to split an existing object, you had to delete it, add the new stuff, then re-build everything.

I also remember doing X and Y texture alignment by hand, in the map editor. Fun! :)

So yeah, copy/paste design might happen in these levels, in the sense of re-using the same layout, but it would not have been done with a copy/paste command.

[mouldy]

Map 13 was a blast from pistol start, lots of running to find cover and weapons while a whole load of monsters come at you. After clearing them all thats pretty much it for the fighting, seems to be the way with these maps though, at least finding the exit wasn't as tedious as pushing a sequence of identical switches.

Map 14 started off quite interesting but became a bit of a copy and paste symetrical tunnel maze. The vile was a welcome surprise, could have done with more monsters in those tunnels though. When you have mazes that are identical it kind of defeats the purpose of a maze, you get the feeling the mapper wasn't interested in giving a challenge rather than making his map last a bit longer.

Oh and invisible teleports are becoming tiresome.

[Hellbent]

dobugabumaru said:

I am quite surprised so many people like MAP09, when I found it absolutely dreadful.

MAP09: cool map. I like it. The SW1s to the two extra rad suits should be made SRs so you can actually get them both!

[mouldy]

glenzinho said:

About copy + paste, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember there being any editors that had a copy and paste feature back in the infancy of Doom modding, not even for Things.

Dear god no, the thought of this guy making identical mazes by hand makes me feel like I am playing through a madman's autistic nightmare..

[purist]

I started off using WADED and I think there was no copy/paste feature there also. Like mouldy says it feels almost worse that he never copy/pasted those areas. It means he made a concious effort to make those duplicate sections, which is hard to understand. At least modern mappers guilty over copy/paste abuse are doing so out of convenience.

[Capellan]

"I'll make these sections exactly the same as each other because that way a smart player will pick up on it and be able to navigate them quickly and easily."


"I'll make these sections exactly the same because every time I build something it takes three times as long because I have to delete and re-add sectors every time I forget a vertex."


"I'll make these sections exactly the same because I like symmetry."


These are all possible reasons. There are other possibilities, I'm sure. But these are the first three that came to mind.

[glenzinho]

I started off with WadEd as well. It was a nice editor for adding & moving things around and changing SideDefs and ceiling & floor textures, but anytime you tried to move a Vertice, the map went to a squiggly line mess. There was no locking grid either, so thing placement was all over the place, but it was super quick. Those were the days... I still remember the intro screen where if you were using the shareware version it would count down 30 seconds until you could enter, good times!

[Ribbiks]

Capellan said:

I also remember doing X and Y texture alignment by hand, in the map editor. Fun! :)

Totally this! I used to sit there with a calculator adding up line lengths and aligning walls sidedef by sidedef -.-

When I came back to doom about a decade later the sophistication of the editing tools blew my mind

[glenzinho]

DAY 8

MAP15

Hectic opening! Another good, beginning fight... also another cameo by our old friend, the useless invulnerability sphere on the floor of the main area. There's a nice little idea in 'control' rooms 1 & 2 with switches behind crushing pistons, although it would go severely against the OH&S policy at my workplace ;) Also, I have absolutely no idea what all of these switches do! Oh look, I just found a room with 3 invulnerabilities... now I just found out why, Hi Archies! Looked all around for the exit when it was behind the switch in control room 8 all the time... wait, that's not an exit! Damn treachery! At least it gives you another (short) battle before the end.

100/100/100 7:52
Great start, crappy hunt, nothing different here... not bad!

MAP16

This is a beautiful looking map by 1995 standards, a kind of abstract townhouse area. i just want to harp on about the design of a couple of rooms in particular here: In the 'libraries' there are F_SKY skylights with wooden beams that is so prevalent in today's mapping but virtually UNHEARD of in January 1995, so kudos Klie! A series of lowering lifts give way to a Cybie room, which is so small that the only way you'll survive this is if you 'knocked over' that bookcase and found the 3 invulnerability spheres, although only one is necessary. A nitpick, the Blue Skull is found in the PE library and is not intuitive, so a lot of running around is needed to find that... would've been better and a more fitting reward after killing the Cybie.

100/100/100 6:08
It's ok and pretty.

[NaturalTvventy]

glenzinho said:

Nah, ComicMischief, you're doing just fine!

About copy + paste, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember there being any editors that had a copy and paste feature back in the infancy of Doom modding, not even for Things. Shit was so primitive back then that you could fart or sneeze and your wad would be screwed up just like that. The first editor I've seen with copy and paste is DB.

He used DEU, and I'm pretty darn sure it had copy/paste. Like, 95% sure.

[glenzinho]

It's coming back to me now... I can vaguely remember copying and pasting sectors inside sectors in DEU, but I also remember it being not very useful for some reason... maybe too much crashing? I don't know anymore, long time ago!

[Capellan]

NaturalTvventy said:

He used DEU, and I'm pretty darn sure it had copy/paste. Like, 95% sure.

It did get added at some point (well, DETH has it, so I am guessing DEU probably did too), but I don't know when. When I first used DEU, which was before Doom 2 came out, you couldn't even automatically split a line with it. You had to delete the sectors the line was in, delete the line, insert the new vertex(es), insert the new lines, and insert the new sectors in place of the old ones. Copy/paste was waaaay beyond what it could do.

[dobu gabu maru]

MAP15: Fun level, but I wonder how the pistol starters are going to survive this, considering that I went in with 200/200 and that was eaten away fast. Slightly useless switch hunting at the end that wasn't that annoying... par for the course I guess. But man, that exit trick... that was definitely one of the funnest things I've played in the megawad so far.

MAP16: Another interestingly designed level, with a couple of good solid rooms. Didn't like the cybie fight, since it was just stand+shoot with invulnerability on. Also, the door-lifts took a little too long to bring down, which made backtracking a chore. But these levels have more of a solid design than the first ten to be honest.

Hope everyone is sticking in there. Even if you're not posting as much, at least keep playing through with us! Over half way through!

[DooMer 4ever]

Map 15:

I'm not sure if activating all those switches behind the crushers was needed, but I did that and it was damn tedious. Not too bad a map besides that, though it becomes very easy when entering the pits in the correct order.

Map 16:

Really good looking start area. Rest of the map isn't that impressive though as surviving the cyber depends on finding a secret, which I did luckily find on my first try, and then there's too much identical rooms as well.

[cannonball]

Map 15 - 7:12, no deaths, (100/100)
Interesting start, can say this map is too bad, though the secret area here is also a soulsphere followed by a megasphere??? Anyways the layout isn't too bad and though there is a switch hunt,it isn't hard to figure out, also found the secret exit switch, which is pointless in this playthrough.
Map 16 - 7:57, no deaths (100/50)
There were some really nice touches in the map, the room with the pain elemental is gorgeous. The cyber room has a room behind it which I believe is mandatory to get to, but it's so annoying with those lifts. Only found one secret, was going to browse around but got locked in the final room so just exited the level. Yet again not a bad level.

[elic]

Map15: The intense start was good, and I thought the whole crusher section was fun. I used up the invulnerability sphere before I got to it, so I had to quickly weave in and out to hit the switches giving access to the other invulnerabilities before being crushed. Intense stuff.


Map16: Most of this map was just meh. The gameplay was very forgettable except for the Cyberdemon fight, and that was just memorable because of how bad it was. All you do is take a secret invulnerability and spam plasma at it. Also all those lifts took annoying long to lower and it was boring running around trying to find the keys at the end. However, the PE room looks amazing for 1995.

[mouldy]

map 15 - very harsh start with just a pistol, pretty much certain death unless you already died so you know to start running straight away. I let most of the monsters down below kill each other before venturing down, although it would have been an interesting fight otherwise, lots of health and cover down there. Then came the 8 little rooms, thank god they were clearly numbered at least - I assume thats the order you go through them. I'm not even entirely sure you needed to go in them all. Seeing the first 2 identical rooms each with 6 crusher switches made me groan, knowing this guy I was expecting another 6 rooms exactly like that. But thankfully there was a bit of variety after, though not much challenge to speak of. Overall not a bad map in the scheme of things.

map 16 had some interesting architecture and a respectable amount of killing. Did my eyes deceive me or were there enemies teleporting into one room? I think thats the first time I've seen that in this wad, would have been nice to see a bit more of that in earlier maps, although knowing this guy he would have found a way to make it annoying. There was a monster shooting me from behind a false wall who I had harsh words with. Also I'm glad I stumbled on the secret room before the cyberdemon, I'm assuming that fight would be impossible otherwise. I nearly picked up all 3 invulnerability spheres at once cos they were right behind another false wall. But niggles aside this was another ok map with a respectable body count throughout. And the surprise ending made me laugh. Or maybe that was on map 15? I have real trouble remembering these maps...

[purist]

Still hanging in... actually it's become more of a pleasure - the maps are definitely getting better.

MAP15

I had a lot of fun in the start area with the weapons carried over. Unfortunately, I dropped into the AV hole first and was killed. I decided to pistol start for my second attempt and the start is more of a gruel without a chaingun to chew up those zombies but there's plenty of health in the middle section to recover.

I also stupidly ignored the number clues and decided to instead avenge my own death by heading straight back to the AV hole. I used the Invulnerability sphere in the central area and plasma'd them all to death. After this I visiting the remaining holes in order and, other than the really cool switches stuck behind the crushers (which I'm probably going to steal!), it was pretty routine and uninteresting from here.

I missed the interesting fight people have mentioned by being too clever for my own good and activating a switch from behind, which sent me to the stock Doom II MAP31 secret level.

MAP16

This is the best looking level in the set so far - the only real pimple being those ugly blocks of key indicator bars. It was also a reasonable play through. I am playing in HMP, which handily provided me with an invulnerability sphere directly before the Cyb fight, which trivialised it but at least it didn't force you to rely on a secret.

I have to note that I was particular impressed by the use of sky in this level, especially in the PE room, which looked like it was warped in from the future. I was also slightly surprised by the teleporting monsters as I didn't think this was a common trait in these older PWADs as well.

After all the monsters were dead it became another key hunt and they were more hidden than I liked but the map was quite small and other than those lowering lifts slowing progress I didn't find it too tedious.


So, we're past halfway now and I have to say it's gradually been getting better so far. These two are the best double so far in the megawad. I saved at the start of MAP17, which was just a close up of a switch so it's hard to make any early judgements. I'll just have to wait until tomorrow...

[Ribbiks]

map13: 5:53

As already mentioned, this one was a pretty fun pistol-start. Lotsa baddies right off the bat. Then similar to map 11 once you kill them all off it's basically just wandering around mostly vacant structures and collecting keys. The BFG and a bajillion cells was a bit overkill but what else is new.

map14: 4:49

Brown mazes, we meet again. I'm pleasantly surprised that most of the stone textures are aligned. Also some quirky use of teleporters, I thought I was trapped after getting the soulsphere in the yellow-key maze.

map15: 6:26

I reiterate my previous complaint: kill monsters --> wander around empty brown mazes trying to figure out how to get the keys. It would be more exciting if keys triggered traps or something. Just sort of tedious.

map16: 2:05

This one didn't really feel like a bf_thud map, more like a normal E1 style map. Didn't really enjoy it so I kind of just ran for the keys and made a quick exit.

[glenzinho]

DAY 9

MAP17

And we're off.. usual kind of start area with door options N,E,S,W. Watch out for the blue skull! I warned you...
Damn, that curved ledge must of been a bitch to make back then, the textures are aligned even!
Whoops, those barrel explosions got me from way down there. Gotta love infinitely tall actors.
Got stuck in the soulsphere chamber. Inescapable? Not fun Chris...

100/98/0 7:19
This was a little confusing, just like my comments...
Not a bad level I guess, but I didn't like it at all.

MAP18

This is more like it! The teleporting enemies at the start is a nice touch.
Uhhh, why is there an arrow pointing at the only possible place to go? Foreshadowing of modern FPSes? ;)
Good trap, that lowering floor one. I also liked the drop down lift a la E1M9.
Those repeatable pushable lowering stairs are... interesting. Can see some possibilities there.
We've had the Circle of Death, now get ready for the TRIANGLE OF TERROR!....or not, I'm good either way..
Great big outdoor area that I like, plenty of cannon fodder.
Peeves here: unmarked doors.

100/76/0 8:05
This is one of the best in the wad.

Some thoughts: This was only 2 or 3 months after Doom 2 came out. Maybe people weren't comfortable with the new harder monsters back then?
Maybe that's why there's fewer of them and a lot of powerups to use?

[molten_]

Oops, I missed a day. M'bad.


MAP13:
Not the prettiest map, but still pretty fun. The city layout made the fight at the beginning really intense and fun, running around for cover and ammo. It wasn't nearly as good as Doom 2's city map (Obviously) but it was definitely entertaining.

I don't really remember how I got the blue key, I think it was somewhere on the building that had the BFG, but I don't think I noticed picking it up so I ran around a lot longer than I should have.

Overall a decent map.


MAP14:
Ouch. Maybe I was just playing dumb but this map felt like a huge step up in difficulty compared to the rest of the maps. Also ... more copy/pasted mazes! I find it funny to think that the author deliberately drew in the copies by hand because his editor didn't couldn't copy, but that is probably just wishful thinking on my part.

Anyway, I didn't really like this map. The beginning looked kind of cool, but the mazes at this point are unforgivable. They aren't even that well designed. This definitely feels like a step back from MAP12 where the mazes were made infinitely better.

I got kind of lucky with the Archvile trap because I had the invulnsphere from the previous maze, so that's cool.

Overall it was pretty disappointing, mainly because the other maps have shown a marked improvement in the author's mapping style. Idk.


MAP15:
This level was pretty tense. The beginning almost feels like luck whether or not you die, but everything after that was pretty fun. The different spots you drop into after the fight in the central area were kind of interesting, at least it wasn't the same thing over and over again.

And I'm not going to lie, the spot with 3 Archviles scared the shit out of me.

Overall, decent map. Not bad.


MAP16:
I've noticed that the developer has a habit of making maps where enemies can see you right where you spawn. This isn't that bad, but it's a pet peeve of mine.

Anyway, this was a neat little map. I liked the different design styles going on, and the combat was rather fun. If nothing else I'm definitely enjoying the combat in this wad so far.

However, the blue key is placed in an extremely devious place ... however, if you've played Doom as long as most of us here have, you probably knew something was up when you looked at the automap and saw that the line wasn't solid. I still think it was dumb placement though.

Otherwise, this was fun map. Running back and forth got kind of annoying once you defeated all the enemies and all you had to do was collect the keys, but it wasn't too bad.

[dobu gabu maru]

It's funny that Processingcontrol and I basically had the same impression of MAP16

MAP17: The levels are getting harder... had to exit with 56 health. I like how there were barrels everywhere which made it difficult to mow down enemies without accidentally blowing yourself up... I also got crushed getting the blue key. Not bad, but not memorable.

MAP18: Wow, this was a long and mostly tough level. Without finding the supercharges at the start, its tough to survive the onslaught (and take the left path as I did). Otherwise it wasn't too bad. I like the crusher in the large courtyard area, and the switch hunt wasn't grueling. Pretty fun.

[cannonball]

Map 17 - Time - 4:51, no deaths (100/0)
Not a bad level, just more of the same stuff from this wad.
Map 18 - Time 8:41, 2 deaths (cheated once) (100/0)
This map starts ok and then gets worse, I had to noclip one section (area with the lowering steps as one of the steps refused to lower making progression impossible. Got nailed by chaingunners twice, there seemed to be no rng on those guys, it's 15 damage per bullet, even with armour for some reason. I think i was having an unlucky day :(

[DooMer 4ever]

Map 17:

Poor thing placement here in places when infinitely tall monsters keep blocking you when you want to jump down to a room. The barrel traps were somewhat unfair as well. Other than that, very much the same as most of the wad.

Map 18:

I also got stuck in the lowering stairs part. Nice idea, but flawed execution as you can make the mistake of not lowering first of the steps. Quite challenging from pistol start, though once you get to the soulsphere/blue armor etc. it becomes too easy again.

[ComicMischief]

I had to miss a day due to traveling and having lunch with BDSM-community perverts (all good people, as it happens) so I did four maps, just now.

MAP15
This one had an interesting beginning section, to say the least. Mad dash amidst a hail of bullets and fireballs to get the yellow key? I like it. Shame the rest of the level quickly devolved into a switch-hunt though. A couple of nice things within -- numbered sections were welcome (and made the switchfest less tedious) and so was the triple-Archvile threat. Other than that, an average map so I'm going to give it an average score. 5/10

MAP16
Halls of the halls of the halls. I got the feeling this isn't going to be the last completely pointless Cyberdemon battle, as I sat there; invulnerable; just pumping plasma into the beastie. Ah well, those excess cells had to be used SOMEWHERE. What I do like is that the author seemed to learn how to detail a room nicely for the Pain Elemental and Blue Key room, which looked rather good for this WAD. However, the rest of the map followed in a standard manner for this WAD, chasing keys in silence - save for one Revenant who is completely no threat at all. Another average map. 5/10

MAP17
Whoopee, a four-sided layout. I dreaded the navigational dirge that is rotational symmetry here as I blasted a few of the early fodder that did a great job of wearing down my health. There was some neat barrel placement l here and there, but this was otherwise a pretty dull map with sections that threatened to be interesting but fell flat. Minus marks for one switch hidden within all those lion-face textures. 4/10

MAP18
The beginning of this mauled me a few times. Enemies teleporting right behind me, a mad dash to switch and turn back into an alcove to pick off imps and chaingunners, and nothing much in the way of health early on. A sneaky start that unfortunately doesn't set the tone so well for the rest of the map. I did like the actual courtyard section somewhat -- and those cramped stairs I had to force down to get through, those were GENIUS. Other than that, I'm afraid another average mark. 5/10

My scores in general are getting lower due to the fact that this WAD is getting on a bit, and it's doing very little to hold my attention. I'm looking at the bigger picture here, as always. :)