Doom 2 In Name Only - Now (supsiciously) on a load of gaming articles

[Antroid]

Actually my map29 is pretty much an embodiment of my ideas about doom2's hell. The living city is growing on the ruins of old, real ones. And the whole place is also being plunged into black nothingness of course, but the point remains that it's pretty much "hell on earth". I personally choose to liberally ignore or write off anything in the intermissions that implies us getting to hell through a portal. The portal can lead to the future or a more corrupted area of earth for all i care. :D

I now picture the spirit world map as an outdoors map that is as abstract and hellish as they come, but still can be recognized as what once was a normal stretch of landscape with something like a village, a factory, some highways, or an army base. Could fit rather well with map29. I could have our guy start by going out of a cave, implying that he returned from the depths of the earth (where the more infernal levels could've taken place) to the outside, finding it much worse than when he left it (at Gotcha). Unless people are strongly ideologically opposed to this sort of interpretation, i would indeed like to try working on map28 (eventually).

[Devalaous]

..I entirely forgot Living End was your map >_>

Sorry if it it looks like im trying to change it, as you can tell I'm kind of passionate about this kind of thing.

How does your version connect up with the Icon of Sin? (In your imagination, not any actual Map30 for this project) I can picture this living flesh city being built above and around it.

[Antroid]

It's too late to change anything major about map29 anyway. But it ends on that big platform you could see in Eris' spoilery screenshot, there is a big-ish hole in the floor that kinda glows. I decided to leave it ambigious, and it's a suicide exit too. So map30 could be a different dimension or anything else. I don't remember actually thinking about it too much, but i imagined the icon of sin being in actual hell, wherever the actual hell is by that time. If it was up to me though i wouldn't have any sky in map30 (as it's author did if i recall, that's why i had map29 end in such a way - map29 only has black sky) and would have it being the lowest point in the marine's jorney to the depths of hell beneath the earth, but in this wad that ain't happening, because apparently the marine comes back to the surface/earth before finding a portal to Romero's lair.

[Alfonzo]

Just posting to announce that I've begun work on map03 as of today, and that I'll probably have something to show for it before the check-in at the end of the year.

I'm also pretty keen on having a stab at Barrels o' Fun, having happened onto an idea for it this morning, but seeing as I've yet to nip this here Gantlet in the bud it's likely more sensible to leave it open for now.

[Tristan]

cannonball said:

Also I would say that map02 isn't there, unless you have omitted it for other reasons so far. On that note that reminds me to actually playtest it.......

Nah, I don't know how to run RAR's. I don't seem to have this 7-zip thing I thought you supposed to use.

@Antroid: p.s. i love the constantly changing thread title, have we disheartened you from making the alpha so easily Eris? :p

Nah, I just forgot that the maps are already avaliable.

As for the Abandoned Mines description, I was never entirely sure if it was inside hell or part of earth that had been converted to look a bit like hell. They were merely jokes, but they seem to have become a bit more than that :O

As for Gotcha, we don't know what the result will be, the development of that map has been called into question.

Removing the ? from Map03 and marking Antroid in as a possible MAP28er.
EDIT: And having just seen the identity of the other MAP28er...

EDIT: Forum Regular within 4 months. Is that a record? :D

YET ANOTHER EDIT: OK, got MAP02 going. Nice easy map, I beat it first time on UV :D. There seem to be 2 lines around the yellow door that haven't been textured with the yellow door indicator. Is this intentional?
Noted in OP that it's in MAP01 slot, and added cheesy screenshot to OP.

[Antroid]

Okay so today while riding the subway i had 2 ideas. First, maybe we could swap the music tracks between Gotcha and Spirit world. I really think that spirit world should have that track, kind of calm and cynically depressing, and gotcha sounds like more of an action level that would benefit from the original map28's track.

Idea 2, i thought how to incorporate the first map28 author's idea about the scrolling facewall textures outside all windows and such. I wanna try to have the map consist of two "alternate realities", roughly speaking: inside all the structures, which is dark, more realistic, and has the freaky walls of densely packed spirits outside all windows and even doors. Except when you escape a building through a door right into the wall of faces, you go to the "outside" reality, intended to be a representation of what all the spirits "see", so it's gonna be way more abstract and evil-looking. I dunno how to explain it better...

[cannonball]

@Antroid, you really have got the ideas machine going at the moment, interesting times ahead on here methinks :)
Also just a note, you don't have to use the original doom 2 tracks for the maps so don't feel pressurised into using 'message for the archvile' or 'getting too tense' for map28.

[Antroid]

Well i kinda don't really like the idea of new music in this wad, and anyways when i was trying to hum a melody based on my imagined versin of map28 i couldn't help but hum the "message for (of?) the archie". Then i thought about it and realized that it'd probably be very suitable if these two tracks got swapped.

[Tristan]

Antroid, similar to TNT04: Wormhole?
I'm thinking of putting a final boss premonition in the central catacomb of MAP22. The face of the Baphomet lowers into the floor, revealing the burial chamber of a Spiderdemon. And 8 Arachnotrons off to the side.

In E1M3 of original Doom, when you take the blue key, the linedef triggers the lights to go off. Can this effect be used to have the lights turn on instead?

You're definitely right about MAP20 and MAP28 MIDI's being in the wrong place. Although I can't agree with your views on the custom music. Some maps (1 and 11 spring to mind) have greatly benefited from it. MAP15 could probably survive with D_RUNNIN, but based on the thread about this track, I can't imagine anyone wants it as the soundtrack to such a long map.

[Gez]

Antroid said:

Well i kinda don't really like the idea of new music in this wad

Put that in DEHACKED:

Text 5 6
tensemessg

Text 6 5
messgtense

And there you go, no new music, but it's swapped nonetheless. :)

(At least I think it should work.)

[cannonball]

It's a fair enough point but consider this,
if the levels haven't been made yet, who is to say that the music has been composed for this game yet? Just saying.
Of course this only works if someone decides to swan in a compose for the entire wad like Robert Prince did. It's not really an issue and I feel d_running would really grate on map15 here though it would get away with countdown to death on map21.

[Antroid]

Eris Falling said:

Antroid, similar to TNT04: Wormhole?

Not too similiar, i wasn't thinking of two versions of an area, more like the outside and inside are different in concept (inside is us practically hiding from the ~spooky spirit blizzard~, outside is us going out there and seeing the world through their eyes).

You're definitely right about MAP20 and MAP28 MIDI's being in the wrong place. Although I can't agree with your views on the custom music. Some maps (1 and 11 spring to mind) have greatly benefited from it. MAP15 could probably survive with D_RUNNIN, but based on the thread about this track, I can't imagine anyone wants it as the soundtrack to such a long map.

Well it's certainly personal taste, it just feels sort of wrong to me when we have the same level names and all to have different music. Also the levels with custom music are going to stand out too much imho. But this is up to the people who wish to include it and to whoever handles the project as a whole.

Gez said:

And there you go, no new music, but it's swapped nonetheless. :)

Well by new music i meant entirely original tracks, not inserting old ones under new names (i am of the belief that if it works i don't care how it is done :p ). I have no experience with dehacked (only zdoom stuff like decorate) so i can't even fathom how those lines are going to help... I wonder if i could write a decent doom level tune, i have fl studio after all.

[scifista42]

Eris Falling said:

In E1M3 of original Doom, when you take the blue key, the linedef triggers the lights to go off. Can this effect be used to have the lights turn on instead?

Yes. Linedef action 12 (Light Change to 255) or 13 (Light Change to Brightest Adjanced).

As for the music, I'm definitely for custom music. I already said it ages ago in the old thread - some maps in Doom 2 has music that don't fit to them (to their names) at all, like MAP22 (I feel so).
(By the way, my map currently uses music from TNT MAP10. I did put it there right when I started making the map. But maybe I will eventually remove/change that music.)

[Tristan]

scifista42 said:

Yes. Linedef action 12 (Light Change to 255) or 13 (Light Change to Brightest Adjanced).

As for the music, I'm definitely for custom music. I already said it ages ago in the old thread - some maps in Doom 2 has music that don't fit to them (to their names) at all, like MAP22 (I feel so).
(By the way, my map currently uses music from TNT MAP10. I did put it there right when I started making the map. But maybe I will eventually remove/change that music.)

Ah thank you. I'm hoping to really make the central catacomb extremely creepy. Do you think marble textures would detract from the catacombiness? And yes, MAP22's D_DDTBLU3 is getting nuked. What by I'm not entirely sure yet.

Cannonball
It's a fair enough point but consider this,
if the levels haven't been made yet, who is to say that the music has been composed for this game yet? Just saying.

Here's my opinion on the custom music so far

MAP01: The music is part of the gameplay for this level. It's much faster-paced than D_RUNNIN, and really gets you into the killing spree mood.

MAP11: This is one of the best MIDIs I've ever heard. Dat piano. Fits the level perfectly and makes it kind of creepy at times. Can you imagine The Healer Stalks over this? (console time!)

MAP13: Doesn't use music, but I don't feel D_DOOM fits this level. Except for the broken subway and the tunnels. And that's only a very small part of the map Just my opinion though.

MAP15: I still think D_RUNNIN could work on this map. I'm not saying I'd prefer it, but I think it could. I'm not sure what it is about this track. It just works.

MAP18: D_ROMERO might have worked better. Still, this is a very catchy track, and a change of scenery(wut) is never a bad thing.

MAP19: Not seen the map yet, but I'm not sure TNT10 is the best choice for an eerie map.

MAP21: D_COUNT2...maybe you're right. You could probably JUST get away with it...Still, what you have is better.

[Memfis]

cannonball said:

if the levels haven't been made yet, who is to say that the music has been composed for this game yet? Just saying.

AFAIK some Doom 2 midis were originally made for Doom 1. :) For example, D_ROMERO was intended for E1M3 I think.

[Tristan]

Memfis said:

AFAIK some Doom 2 midis were originally made for Doom 1. :) For example, D_ROMERO was intended for E1M3 I think.

Yes, and D_OPENIN was made for the title screen, which is why it's called Opening to Hell

[Memfis]

Eris Falling said:

MAP11: Circle of Death / 'O' of Destruction by Eregore/Egregor - Possibly final version

I tried it in Prboom-plus with doom2.exe compatibility and couldn't lower the lift tagged 22, probably because there is a demon too close to a wall.

[scifista42]

Eris Falling said:

Ah thank you. I'm hoping to really make the central catacomb extremely creepy. Do you think marble textures would detract from the catacombiness? And yes, MAP22's D_DDTBLU3 is getting nuked. What by I'm not entirely sure yet.

Well, if I were making catacombs, I would make them consisting mostly of long, curved, low-detailed corridors textured by some rock-like/brick textures or ashwall. Those corridors would connect many rooms - rooms with more interesting architecture and textured differently, for example with said marble. But I definitely wouldn't use marble bricks for long passageways - that would detract from the catacombiness IMO. In addition, I would make the corridors really dark. I think the Catacombs level is a great opportunity to use light amplification googles, as they aren't used in maps very often.

In fact - I am making some sort of catacombs (underground corridors) in my Citadel, and they will look like I described you in previous paragraph. I haven't made much of those catacombs, but I already imagined them and they must be there - to connect two significant parts of my map, which are separated and distant from each other now. My catacombs will be dark corridors, 128 units wide, made of ROCK3 texture. I'm planning to make there torture chambers, storage rooms, corridors flooded by blood or lava... But as I said, I only made a small fraction of what I wanted to, yet. It's one of the last things I should complete before saying my map is done... I'm saying this all to give you some inspiration, but also because it wouldn't be best if both my and your catacombs looked the same. However, from what I've seen in your screenshots, I think your style is so different from mine so it won't happen.

[Tristan]

scifista42 said:

(About catacombs)

Yeah. It's mostly a rock map, and I think Marble could add to the grandness of the main catacomb (paired with SUPPORT3 of course). I've been using Ashwalls, Wood and Zimmer for most of these places. Some marble was used in a plasma rifle trap too.

For liquids, I'm planning to use a liquid quite extensively in the central comb, but other than that, liquid doesn't really play much of a part.

I think the Catacombs level is a great opportunity to use light amplification googles, as they aren't used in maps very often.

Maybe I'll throw in a very obscure secret somewhere, but they would sort of detract from the atmosphere of my map, and undo the lighting detail. We will see.

Your tunnels are 128 wide, mine are 64 tall, but width? Pfft...

So now I've finally finished the western catacombs (red-key section), now what if you turned right at the cyber-chamber to go for the eastern catacombs...maybe you'll find another key. After all, there's two pillars blocking off the northern tunnels.

[Gez]

Memfis said:

AFAIK some Doom 2 midis were originally made for Doom 1. :) For example, D_ROMERO was intended for E1M3 I think.

Yep, it's what was used when they recorded a visit to Id Software.

[Tristan]

Random Screenshot

Somewhere, in the tunnels to the Eastern Catacombs, behind some MIDBARS, a Cacodemon lurks in the shadows, waiting to pounce. On HMP or higher, this cacodemon has been killed by a Baron, which replaces it. The corpse of the cacodemon will still be present.

[Antroid]

That's pretty cool but i'm pretty certain nobody would've noticed that. However i love such little tidbits that you pretty much have to point out about your levels and then people go "Ooookay. Interesting i guess".

[Tristan]

Antroid said:

That's pretty cool but i'm pretty certain nobody would've noticed that. However i love such little tidbits that you pretty much have to point out about your levels and then people go "Ooookay. Interesting i guess".

Hahaha, they are on to me :P
Well, it wasn't going to break any limits by being there, it looks cool, the player will see this tunnel if they hear the baron/caco and decide to fight it. So really, why not? :D

[Tristan]

The main catacomb isn't turning out as I'd hoped. Quite frankly, I think it looks like shit. Suggestions for improvement? I think we can safely say that the red marble is going.

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/3871/screenshotdoom201212021.png

[cannonball]

red and green marble doesn't exactly go well, try making all the marble green and mixing it with some flesh or wood as the colours clash a little less. On the other hand it is hell and they can do what the heck they want aka the Sandy Peterson effect :P

[Tristan]

cannonball said:

red and green marble doesn't exactly go well, try making all the marble green and mixing it with some flesh or wood as the colours clash a little less. On the other hand it is hell and they can do what the heck they want aka the Sandy Petersen effect :P

I shrank the columns back to 128x128, since they lower to the floor and stuck Arachnotrons aren't a problem, so I have more to work with now.

Regarding difficulty, do you think 2 Masterminds on UV can be justified with 8 Arachnotrons also in the chamber, allowing for infighting? The player will also have a BFG if not on a pistol start too.

[cannonball]

Well i'm fine with it, to be honest it was very likely that this wad would be more difficult than the original doom 2

[Tristan]

cannonball said:

Well i'm fine with it, to be honest it was very likely that this wad would be more difficult than the original doom 2

I nearly survived 2 masterminds, which is probably a good indicator it's not too tough a fight anyway. We'll see how it turns out.

Texture wise, I'm literally experimenting right now with lots of different textures. Will show some alternative shots later.

EDIT: Replaced most of the green marble with red, change the floor and ceiling to wood, the gunk to blood and added some SUPPORT textures. It's an improvement, no doubt.
http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/7374/chambertake2.png

[Babel]

i see map23 OPEN, i want take it, can i?

[Tristan]

Joseph Lord said:

i see map23 OPEN, i want take it, can i?

Yes. I'll mark you down?