Doom 2 In Name Only - Now (supsiciously) on a load of gaming articles

[Antroid]

I think it's better to just fix the start of map06 if it isn't already, but I'm not ENTIRELY opposed to the idea of new skies, as long as they look really close to the originals. SKY1 provides a certain atmosphere that I'll personally really miss if it's gone, the city sky is alright and it fits the levels at this point and I don't think we can make a much better city sky anyways. SKY3 however I kinda hate and I would actually be all for it being some generic red sky, maybe with mountains, but preferrably not because a tileable (or tall) SKY3 could really help map31.

When I get home from work, or on the weekend if I fall asleep immidiately, I'll try my hand at some new-ish skies. I've made a couple for my zdoom project, maybe I can make good ones here. Any advice on what size a sky should be vertically to fit the entire screen at all times, if the player doesn't use mouselook?

[Springy]

Antroid said:

When I get home from work, or on the weekend if I fall asleep immediately, I'll try my hand at some new-ish skies.

I wish I had the power to be able to produce skies in my sleep. I can't wait to see how the new skies turn out though.

[mouldy]

Jayextee said:

Might I add, as well, that new skies probably wouldn't hurt too much -- I'm mainly thinking of a tilable one being needed for MAP01-11 because otherwise that outside area at the beginning of The Crusher is going to remain ugly as sin.

The start of the crusher has already been changed to fix this I believe.

[cannonball]

After watching Tarnman's stream (currently paused at the start of map15), I shall try my best to visually improve the map, I've taken out some of the doors to improve the flow, widened other doors and added a bit of ceiling height variation.
Yay all still comfortably within limits

[joe-ilya]

MAP08 is full of tutti-fruities.

[Avoozl]

I just played up to MAP08, I quite enjoyed it so far until I got to the part with hundreads of revenants and few chaingunners and hellknights, the fight was too hard and I only had 45 health so I died a few times round, ugh I hate revenants in gangs.

[mouldy]

Map 14 - found no problems with this, nice relaxing map to play. In fact I had never played it before and found I didn't die once so felt like a step down in difficulty maybe, but thats no big deal.

Map 15 - quite an epic map to play through. its a bit of an obscure switch hunt at times but I got through it all no problem and even managed to solve the secret exit puzzle (hate those memory things). The hitler room confused me somewhat, I didnt remember that from last time. Was that for resetting the secret exit switches if you get one wrong? Anyway, the only visual niggles I had are very minor and pedantic:


The shadow on the floor in this room is weird, there are ceiling lights in the middle but not on the outside so it makes no sense.


The way that brick stepping doesn't follow the bricks on the texture really annoys my brain, dunno if thats intentional or not though given that its the crappy wolfenstein texture..

[cannonball]

Map09 - died over and over again.
I'm sorry I had a horrible time in the pit area, there needs to be a drastic cut in pain elementals as they cause no end of havoc. There are need to be an increase in health too as I got 2/3 of the way through and was on 25 health and there was nothing left to spare in the entire areas I explore, note I' not going into the pit as the 20% damage means leaky suit will kill me down there away even with a radsuit.
Also I might add that this map suffers from some of the same issues your Monochrome map has, there are so many rooms with no purpose full of doom furniture which could irritate many (including Tarnsman)
When you could let rip a little in the tech and cavern areas, the map plays all right, and I do like the sheer scale of the map just for novelty.
Note this was the first DNF as frankly I had left myself no chance here and then my laptop overheated and died :P

[mouldy]

Map 31 - nothing bad to say about this one, although playing just now the cyber at the start didn't teleport, so thats still possible.

Map 32 - I'd not played this one before, quite a fun map. I'll have to try again from pistol start some day as I breezed through it with all my big guns. I only found one misaligned texture above the door inside the last building

although the windows/alcoves/doorway just not quite lining up with the brick texture bugs me. I seem to be getting a bit ocd about that these days

[joe-ilya]

Eris Falling said:

Also, I think the difficulty should be brought down a tad for it to be a MAP08.

Why is the current map08 is so damn hard? It's a slaughter map.

[Jayextee]

I dare say, only MAP08's yellow key area needs toning down. The rest is okay.

[an_mutt]

I've already said that I'm going to rework the yellow key room of Map 08. Having finally watched parts of Tarnsman's stream (which is excellent and funny, by the way), I've decided that I'm going to rework more parts of that map. The room with the Plasma Rifle needs work, and I realised that the sewer bit afterwards seems a bit too much like Map 05. (I expected them to pick up on that!) Also the last area with the wood textures looks like shit (somebody pointed that out earlier in the thread I think?) so that's getting a makever as well.

The music's definitely getting reworked as well - I've got an ambient remix planned out which I'll post to the thread when I get some time to work on it, but if the actual song itself and its melody is considered to be shit then I'll find a new track to replace it with. On the topic of music, I think the original tracks of maps 05 & 17 fit pretty well, but if the whole wads' music is being changed then I'll find something new for them as well.

[scifista42]

Seele00TextOnly said:

Tarns stream

Antroid said:

stream

Eris said:

stream

cannonball said:

stream

Processingcontrol said:

livestream

an_mutt said:

Tarnsman's stream

Please, WHERE do I find it?
(CorSair already asked it too)

[Tristan]

Sorry, Glen PM'd me the link last night along with some other things

http://www.twitch.tv/tarnsmandw/b/428713161

Can't say I liked it myself.

[Antroid]

an_mutt said:

On the topic of music, I think the original tracks of maps 05 & 17 fit pretty well, but if the whole wads' music is being changed then I'll find something new for them as well.

I really hope all the standard music isn't being changed... I was making map04 and map29 with precisely the tracks they have now in mind. I would hate to have them replaced by something totally unrelated.

Eris Falling said:

Can't say I liked it myself.

Haven't watched all of it (and won't before playing the wad myself in the far (?) future), but I usually prefer Alfonzo's streams where he's playing and he's the main (or only) commentator. Sure, Tarnsman's criticism can be insightful and helpful, but I usually disagree with him and some other guests he has sometimes (like Pavera) so much that watching them becomes sort of irritating. And there's nearly always this air of "we and only we know how to make doom maps right and everyone else is just stumbling around Doom Builder with their eyes closed". I can't imagine how it's like for you as the project leader!

[Tristan]

What pissed me off was watching them play the later maps with just about every ZDoom console cheat. Jumping, seriously? Pretty sure I disabled that, for the exact purpose I saw it being used for on MAP22. You can't criticise a map if you aren't even going to play it ffs. It probably would have been more helpful if the stream had just been stopped at whatever point that stuff started.

As for MAP07, I can agree it's not very good and it's definitely not for some people. Worst map ever played though?
Someone suggested to me when I started on MAP07 that I just make a corridor with the exit switch at the end of it, dead simple...

"we and only we know how to make doom maps right and everyone else is just stumbling around Doom Builder with their eyes closed".

Yeah, that sort of thing came into my mind too. Haven't played D2TWID did yet, but already I don't like that the list of mappers was essentially the BTSX team, but then that's probably for the best, for the above statement. Anyway, I'll leave this post here, before I get too carried away and publicly write stuff I'll regret.

[mouldy]

Not sure some guy noclipping through the whole wad in an evening is really worthy of this much discussion. I'd just take what you want from it and move on to feedback from people playing the maps

[Antroid]

Eris Falling said:

Someone suggested to me when I started on MAP07 that I just make a corridor with the exit switch at the end of it, dead simple...

Is it too late to do that yet? It's fucking hilarious. Although then the opportunity for the cool-ass music track to play wouldn't be there. Maybe a very long corridor?

Anyway, I'll leave this post here, before I get too carried away and publicly write stuff I'll regret.

I do that all the time and life's been okay so far :D

[Tarnsman]

Eris Falling said:

What pissed me off was watching them play the later maps with just about every ZDoom console cheat. Jumping, seriously? Pretty sure I disabled that, for the exact purpose I saw it being used for on MAP22. You can't criticise a map if you aren't even going to play it ffs.

If a mapset is consistently mediocre in such a consistent way that I want to cheat, I'm going to cheat, I'm no longer gaining anything out of the mapset and I want to at least see what the other maps are. I can sit down for 5 hours and play Plutonia for example and not get "exhausted", because it's good. I'm not going to bother to actually play something I don't like.

See I absolutely and unequivocally can judge a map I haven't played just but looking at it for a brief moment. Much like I was able to clip through 24 and say "this is a cool map" and have that validated upon actually playing it, I can look at a series of narrow boring tunnels and instantly be able to say that it sucks. I've played enough of that to know the end result.

Get over it.

Antroid said:

"we and only we know how to make doom maps right and everyone else is just stumbling around Doom Builder with their eyes closed".

Son what the fuck are you talking about? When I play a map I discuss what I like and don't like about a map, which has nothing to do with the "right" way to map. X component can be done well and X can be done like shit. If I thought I was the only one who knew how to make Doom maps I would never praise something like a Bruce map. But I do because a Bruce map is fun to play and interesting. Like there is no right or wrong school of mapping only how you execute it.

[Tristan]

Antroid said:

Is it too late to do that yet? It's fucking hilarious.

If V4 gets a similar reception

[cannonball]

Tarnsman said:

If a mapset is consistently mediocre in such a consistent way that I want to cheat, I'm going to cheat, I'm no longer gaining anything out of the mapset and I want to at least see what the other maps are. I can sit down for 5 hours and play Plutonia for example and not get "exhausted", because it's good. I'm not going to bother to actually play something I don't like.

I have to admit I probably couldn't do that even for the best wads. The only times I've played that long were for zdaemon sessions where the wad involved was one I'm involved in and feel obliged to play till the small hours for playtesting purposes.
But hey each to their own. Plus in general the criticisms for my maps were fair. I laughed at map15 as yeah I am completely guilty of drawing huge objects and filling it. I do feel that I might have to gut a couple of the builing to try to make some more open arenas which would be better to play in.

[CorSair]

mouldy said:

Interesting changes, I can see how the monsters tend to bunch up though. Would you mind if I have a go at messing around with monster placement for this map? Just to see if a different approach would make an improvement or give you some ideas..

By all means, please do so if you want. I am at least trying to be open for all sorts of ideas. I am already stumped. :P

cannonball said:

Map09 - died over and over again.
I'm sorry I had a horrible time in the pit area, there needs to be a drastic cut in pain elementals as they cause no end of havoc. There are need to be an increase in health too as I got 2/3 of the way through and was on 25 health and there was nothing left to spare in the entire areas I explore, note I' not going into the pit as the 20% damage means leaky suit will kill me down there away even with a radsuit.
Also I might add that this map suffers from some of the same issues your Monochrome map has, there are so many rooms with no purpose full of doom furniture which could irritate many (including Tarnsman)
When you could let rip a little in the tech and cavern areas, the map plays all right, and I do like the sheer scale of the map just for novelty.
Note this was the first DNF as frankly I had left myself no chance here and then my laptop overheated and died :P

I too admit that health is bit too low. Should've increased that already when I first playtested, but couldn't be arsed.
As for pain elementals, they are only in hard difficulty. But I still would like to keep them, if only to show their potential at worst/best. Call me sadist if you wish. :P
Sorry, but I don't like too much empty space, to be honest, especially when the area should have some meaning or distinct to other areas. :P
But I guess I should see that they don't do anything stupid, at least. And some of the main areas have difference, in regards of that yellow key. Don't know if people see through the gimmick, though.
Too bad you didn't like it, but comments are by all means appreciated, so thanks for that.

[Tarnsman]

Well if the stream was supposed to be a critical feedback vid like the megawad club ones, I would have sat down and actually played each map and split it into several parts, and bothered to link it here, but when I'm just playing something (especially something I KNOW the megawad club is going to eventually do) I'm not going to bother playing stuff I already know I'm not going to enjoy.

[cannonball]

CorSair said:

Too bad you didn't like it, but comments are by all means appreciated, so thanks for that.

I think if you increase the ammo of health available to the player it would encourage (for me personally) to be a lot more aggressive in tackling the map which would hopefully make the map drag less.
Oh and a personal preference, knock the lava back to 10% damage as it stops the leaky suit :P

[Antroid]

Tarnsman said:

Son what the fuck are you talking about? When I play a map I discuss what I like and don't like about a map, which has nothing to do with the "right" way to map. X component can be done well and X can be done like shit. If I thought I was the only one who knew how to make Doom maps I would never praise something like a Bruce map. But I do because a Bruce map is fun to play and interesting. Like there is no right or wrong school of mapping only how you execute it.

I've often disagreed with your opinions watching the streams on what's done well and what's done like shit, so that's why I say that. You are basically repeating the exact thing I said in different words: instead of claiming to possess reliable knowledge of how to make good doom maps, you claim to possess reliable knowledge of whether something is shit or not. The way I see it, your and other people's judgements on how well maps execute certain concepts are for the most part no more objective and universally right than someone's who would say "all slaughtermaps are shit" or something like that. Especially because the argument often boils down to subjective perception anyway, like when crampedness feels restrictive and when it feels right. Not everyone's going to feel the same way about it, but you talk about it like a school teacher spreading undisputed knowledge.


All that said, let me reiterate that I do very much appreciate your and Alfonzo's streams and they have been pretty helpful to me in getting a slightly better perspective on mapping, and I apologize if I've been rude - it was unintentional if that's the case, I just says it like I feels it.

[Capellan]

mouldy said:

Map 32 - I only found one misaligned texture above the door inside the last building

Huh. I found a couple more and fixed 'em.

[Tarnsman]

Antroid said:

I've often disagreed with your opinions watching the streams on what's done well and what's done like shit, so that's why I say that. You are basically repeating the exact thing I said in different words: instead of claiming to possess reliable knowledge of how to make good doom maps, you claim to possess reliable knowledge of whether something is shit or not.

No, I possess the reliable knowledge to declare whether or not I THINK it's shit. Which I will then explain by breaking down what aspects I like and dislike and why. So that I justify why I consider it shit. That's how an opinion works. If I come across a room that's offensively ugly to me and plays like shit, I'm going to inform you that I hate it and it sucks and you should feel bad for making it. At which point you can decide how much you do or do not agree with my reasoning behind it and change as desired.

The whole "Objectively Wrong(TM)" thing is just us fucking around. Unless you do claim something like "this sucks because the IWADs did it differently and then I can point out that you are in fact wrong" but that's a different story.

[mouldy]

Map 17 - Gameplay seems cool in this map, I like the whole idea and layout of it. I have a few things to say about some of the visuals:

This bathroom has some weird lighting:
http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/1892/1ingyfbxnzrbqir6g.jpg
Just wasn't sure if that was intentional or not?

Texture mistake:
http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/78d7/ctyr2sx7xkzk1r36g.jpg

One thing I thought was that the outdoors was a bit brightly lit, but then I got to this courtyard where it seems to be night-time
http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/c6c8/kt9jekbfsggw3c86g.jpg
I quite like the lighting here, its a bit weird not being consistant though. Another reason I took this picture was to show how there are a lot of plain square walls all the same height in this map. Would be nice to break them up with some height variation, maybe a suggestion of other buildings in the background.

The lighting here looks a bit off:
http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/4399/2lpg02ppba30f406g.jpg
like the corner shadow seems a bit too dark next to the brightly lit wall. Also there are shadows behind the lights on silver pillars which looks odd. Come to think of it, I wonder what this area would look like with the same lighting as the dark courtyard..

Think the ceiling texture on these rocky bits might be wrong:
http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/a442/7tdoa4r1mcdxtw36g.jpg

This is another weird lighting bit:
http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/d652/k6hsccxr1vlr0pl6g.jpg
The way the sides are bright while the stairs go darker looks strange to me, as if there should be something there lighting those walls.

The doortrack on this door moves when it opens:
http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/f18e/ht4oy0y7qwyh63c6g.jpg

Apart from all that I really like the look of it, especially where fleshy hell is breaking through.

[CorSair]

cannonball said:

I think if you increase the ammo of health available to the player it would encourage (for me personally) to be a lot more aggressive in tackling the map which would hopefully make the map drag less.
Oh and a personal preference, knock the lava back to 10% damage as it stops the leaky suit :P

Well, you're not supposed to enjoy your stay in the pit, except for the quick evasion (not gonna happen to anyone, I suppose), red key or that building with mega-armor, ammo and 2 medpacks. And I suppose you should be even happy I dotted those radsuits, thought only 4 would be max. :P Not gonna promise anything, but I guess I can pull some strings...

But health is definitely gonna get added.


Also, folks: Tarnsman has opinion, so do you too. World doesn't burn for that. (Unless he wants that.)

[schwerpunk]

Hey, I hate to bust in asking for feedback without providing any of my own, but any thoughts on MAP16? I'm really at an impasse. My mapping hand died somewhere around 2/3rds and I'm struggling to get it playable. On top of that, it's the most difficult map I've ever made, so I have no idea how to balance it properly, since I lack the skillz to test it without cheating.