Doom 2 In Name Only - Now (supsiciously) on a load of gaming articles

[Capellan]

Made a couple of tweaks to my level. New version at:

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?f6krgmut5u6mrwa

(changed link in earlier post, too)

Fixed the passable bars Eris found, fixed some difficulty flags which were making medium easier than easy in one fight, added some ceiling variation to the final room, and slung in a couple of tweaks for deathmatch. Not that I expect this map to see much if any DM play, but I couldn't ignore them :)

[Tristan]

Egregor said:

Eris Falling, can you use the same method on my map (level 11) and post it in here? I was using chocolate doom and just running around looking for it to peak out. That map seems much better. Try mine next!

I did all of them, yours was fine. I think it capped at around 110 visplanes. Nevertheless...Here's Drawsegs, followed by visplanes
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/3856/d2ino11drawsegs.png
I'm not sure you need to simplify anything though. I don't think any extra drawsegs appear from here. Also consider the distances. The 257th Drawseg is at the furthest possible distance from the player, so chances are you wouldn't see it anyway.
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/8366/d2ino11visplane.png

Also, adding links to OP. Glad to see MAP17 is up for playing :D If the overflow isn't accessible without cheating, leave it.
MAP07 goes to 150 visplanes on one of those sniper platforms. Call it a punishment for anyone who dares cheat in Vanilla ^_^

[scifista42]

Played MAP17.
First the things I like. Although the map is linear (there is only one right way how to get to the exit), it has many side ways to explore, with additional ammo etc. An_mutt evidently put a lot of effort to make it look as realistic as possible. The detail level is high not just in indoor areas, but also outdoors, which is something I'm personally bad at. I often reach maximum drawsegs/visplanes numbers very easy, and that's why I must admire the author, because this map really looks like a plausible ruins of a city and no overflows occur. I also like ammo balance and the ways you hid secrets, especially the revenant + rocket boxes secret. I like when you need to be clever and attentive to reach secrets.
And now things I didn't like. The BFG can be grabbed from the ground, which wasn't intended I think. Some of the slaughterbattles are too easily skippable, like in the blue key room. And in some areas, the maxvissprites limit is very very close to exceed, but that's more of a nitpick than anything else.
I would also recommend you for next times to use hidden/secret linedefs flags to make the sudden ambushes unexpectable ;).
Overall, I like this map a lot.

EDIT: I found out that player can get stuck in the plasmarifle secret. Fix that if possible, please.

[scifista42]

MAP32.
Good map. Cannonball and Eris already covered it. In my opinion, the super secret level doesn't need to be super-hard, it should be fun-2-play more than anything else, and also should give you plenty of heavy weaponry for further levels. The player proved his skill just to find this level, so he deserves a reward, not punishment for doing so. Capellan's map absolutely complies with this, and that's why I liked it.
Btw, I'm sorry, I know you'll hate me for saying this, but there's one more passable midtexture (bars) right at the start -_-.

[Tristan]

I quite liked MAP17. When I viewed it in DB2 afterwards, it was way smaller than I thought.
Those damn Revenants though...

Anyway, progress on MAP22 is back on track, following the updated demo.

I'm working on a new area, which replaces that godawful teleporter step before the main area. You'll be able to return to it too, once hitting the switch by the Masterminds. This area was inspired by an image of a real catacomb.

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/1387/screenshotdoom201212221.png
And it's inspiration

And an evil altar...Not sure what it does yet though.
http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/1387/screenshotdoom201212221.png

[scifista42]

(Sorry for multiposting. I decided to play and review all maps for this preject that I haven't played/reviewed yet.)

MAP21.
Cannonball shows that he's able to make maps of different concepts, difficulties and atmosphere, while it's still that typical, very well recognizable Cannonball's style. Keep up the good work :)
As you said, this is more of a "breather map" after the previous maps which are expected to be very difficult (and I can assure you, MAP19 will be ;)). I think it's a good idea. If not played from pistol start, this map will reduce the ammo player brought from previous levels which would bring more balance to the next levels ;) (assuming that non-pistol start players don't want to waste time with berserking if they have lots of ammo).
The visuals are good, as well as the gameplay. I already played this map (older version) longer time ago. Today when I played last version, I already knew the concept and a monster placement. I played very carefully. Then I opened red door and although I knew about that revenant and had 100%, he killed me. Berserking is tricky ;)
The secrets are hidden maybe too well :D I wasn't able to find any. So I used IDDT and even then I spent a lot of time searching. At least the blue armor secret would have been marked somehow.
Btw one pain elemental didn't teleport, make his box longer :). I already experienced the same thing in my maps, you think it's long enough but it isn't...
Good map, definitely unusual and untraditional, and I like such maps.

[cannonball]

Played map17, enjoyed it a lot. The start has a lot of threats, the archvile and chaingunners. You need to explore to get well equiped for the fight ahead. There are a lot of cramped moments, which having bfg helped with a lot. I liked the approach to the yellow and blue keys.
The red key area I think needs some work, as people have said already the fight is easily skip-able and isn't much of a threat, took them all out without being hit. Given the space maybe a boss monster would aid to making it a threat, probably a mastermind as a cyber would be able to do all the work for you.
BFG can be picked up without accessing the secret area, just simply move it away from the ledge and all will be well.
Detail was good through, weakest probably in the large open courtyard, but can't really offer alternatives to what you have.
Overall great map

@Scifista42, thanks for the heads up, I shall fix mr pain elemental and yeah I should be able to vary concepts as I have done ultimate doom maps and slaughterfest maps this year :P

[scifista42]

MAP02.
In many aspects similar to original MAP02 (cement+water, 2 keys, backtracking/crossing paths...). Detail level is low, but the style remains the same during the whole level, the map also features quite big height and light variation (when I take into account the simple detail), which is good. Difficulty is appropriate to the second level, as well as monster usage and length. Nothing that bothers me, nothing that fascinates me. Game flows very good, you always know where to go and cannot get lost for more than a moment. _bruce_ is actually good in this respect (I mean, consistent style and flow) and from what I've seen, his MAP14 is going to be a prove of that.

Good second map.

[Antroid]

Eris Falling posted
*a glowing inverted cross screenshot*

That's a damn cool lighting effect! Nothing unusual but it looks really good.

[scifista42]

MAP13.
Unfortunately I have to say I don't like visuals of this map. Yes, you were trying to make it look realistic, but... it just looks ugly. You are doing the same mistake as one Czech mapper, jaeden, used to do (I hope he doesn't kill me for saying this). Different parts of your map are either too large and thick and with extremely high ceiling, or too cramped, long and thin. Either too underdetailed, or with too much unnecessary small details, which look ugly. Either with too many objects (monsters), or with no objects. Either boxy, or with million walls of different angles. But the worst and most ugly thing is that the crossing between these parts of your level are too sharp. You are mixing too many different textures, shapes and heights. Examples:


The gameplay is unfortunately spoiled by some annoyances like monsters behind a midtexture or suddenly popping out (often behind you), pain elementals attacking you from close range etc. If I forget them (which is not easy)... ehh, the map is quite well playable. There are some interesting ideas used in this map, but putting into practice... Sometimes you run out of ammo, but that's not so big problem since you have the berserk from the beginning. Sometimes you get lost, which is slightly bigger problem, but it's possible to deal with that.
In total, I must admit, you put a lot of effort to detail, but the result isn't very good, at least I feel so. I'm sorry, but I think this is one of the worse maps here.



I played MAP17 again and found out a bug: the player can get stuck in the plasmarifle secret. Fix that if possible, please.

[Capellan]

scifista42 said:

Btw, I'm sorry, I know you'll hate me for saying this, but there's one more passable midtexture (bars) right at the start -_-.

I shall indeed hate you with a fiery passion for pointing out something that will take me 2 entire seconds to fix. HATE.

Or, you know, I'll just fix it (probably after Xmas, in case anyone else spots any issues before then) and thank you for pointing it out.

Hate or thanks? Which will it be?

(Spoiler: it's thanks)



In other news, if map09 doesn't end up being taken by Oblivion (it says "possibly" in the 1st post), I have an idea for it. So mark me down as an alternate for that one :)

[scifista42]

MAP07.
A small map with a simple concept, which works well. The most noticeable thing about this map is that there are plenties and plenties of ammo. You can beat all monsters and nevertheless exit the level with full ammo for SSG, chaingun and plasma, without paying extra attention to saving it. Not very detailed, not very difficult. The three sections with keys contain a lot of monsters of different types, which involves infighting, so this part provides most fun. The secrets are actually very obvious and contain unnecesarrily lot of ammo. Each of them provides a small challenge (raising chaingunners etc.) which could have been more difficult and interesting.
Not at all bad, especially considering that it's Eris's first mapping attempt. The biggest problem of this map is that it's... way TOO simple :) (and short) Needs something more interesting, remarkable, unique, complex... you understand. I would expect more than three fun fights and several not-so-fun ones.

EDIT:

Capellan said:

Oblivion

Lol. Obsidian :)

[Tristan]

Antroid said:

That's a damn cool lighting effect! Nothing unusual but it looks really good.

Thank you :)
The ceiling ruins it, but I'm not sure it's too visible from the ground without freelook.

Now...what to do with that altar...

[Tristan]

scifista42 said:

MAP07.
A small map with a simple concept, which works well. The most noticeable thing about this map is that there are plenties and plenties of ammo. You can beat all monsters and nevertheless exit the level with full ammo for SSG, chaingun and plasma, without paying extra attention to saving it. Not very detailed, not very difficult. The three sections with keys contain a lot of monsters of different types, which involves infighting, so this part provides most fun. The secrets are actually very obvious and contain unnecesarrily lot of ammo. Each of them provides a small challenge (raising chaingunners etc.) which could have been more difficult and interesting.
Not at all bad, especially considering that it's Eris's first mapping attempt. The biggest problem of this map is that it's... way TOO simple :) (and short) Needs something more interesting, remarkable, unique, complex... you understand. I would expect more than three fun fights and several not-so-fun ones.

I can make changes to the item placement, probably just messing with difficulty flags. But the layout and gameplay...

Besides

SIMPLE
adj. sim·pler, sim·plest
1. Having or composed of only one thing, element, or part. See Synonyms at pure.
2. Not involved or complicated; easy: a simple task. See Synonyms at easy.
3. Being without additions or modifications; mere: a simple "yes" or "no."
4. Having little or no ornamentation; not embellished or adorned: a simple dress.
5. Not elaborate, elegant, or luxurious. See Synonyms at plain.
6. Unassuming or unpretentious; not affected.
7.
a. Having or manifesting little sense or intelligence.
b. Uneducated; ignorant.
c. Unworldly or unsophisticated. See Synonyms at naive.
8. Not guileful or deceitful; sincere.
9. Humble or lowly in condition or rank: a simple woodcutter.
10. Ordinary or common: a simple head cold.
11.
a. Being a fundamental or rudimentary element; basic.
b. Not important or significant; trivial.
12. Biology Having no divisions or branches; not compound: a simple leaf; a simple eye or lens.
13. Music Being without figuration or elaboration: a simple tone

[scifista42]

I think that "DEAD SIMPLE" doesn't mean "LEVEL IS SIMPLE".

But yes, yes, of course you are true, after all you are the boss here :D
(joke)

EDIT: Six months on these forums and just 100 posts and "Junior member" title. I'm somehow backwards behindhand... (damn my English)

[Tristan]

scifista42 said:

I think that "DEAD SIMPLE" doesn't mean "LEVEL IS SIMPLE".

Then tell me, what does it mean?

[Capellan]

Well in the original instance, I think it means "this level is simple; just kill everything. Monsters dead? Level ends. Simple. Dead simple."

But it could also mean architecturally simple, conceptually simple, difficulty is simple. Lots of options :)

[scifista42]

Eris Falling said:

Then tell me, what does it mean?

It can mean for example "THIS LEVEL IS PRETTY HARD AND HAS A LOT OF DIFFERENT THREATS THAT WILL KILL YOU VERY QUICK AND EASILY" But that's just my interpretation. :)

[Tristan]

scifista42 said:

It can mean for example "THIS LEVEL IS PRETTY HARD AND HAS A LOT OF DIFFERENT THREATS THAT WILL KILL YOU VERY QUICK AND EASILY" But that's just my interpretation. :)

V3.0.0 was about 5 times harder than what you've played. I had HK's and Barons on the plinths, and more cacos, each walkway was visible from the rest of the map too.

I got told off for that. Perhaps ammo was the problem. I made the changes suggested by various others, and came up with the 3.3 series.

Dead - in modern times, this is synonymous with 'very'
Dead cool, dead quiet, dead simple

Now I'll gladly tighten up the ammo, since I do agree after you mentioned it. I might even redo some monsters, but layout changes are a no-no.

[scifista42]

Eris Falling said:

Dead - in modern times, this is synonymous with 'very'
Dead cool, dead quiet, dead simple

Again - YATB :D

Spoiler

You are the boss :D

(now dead seriously, I know you're right, my internet translator confirmed it)

[Antroid]

Eris Falling said:

The ceiling ruins it, but I'm not sure it's too visible from the ground without freelook.

Hey, just do what I did in map29 (use that one fireplace in that one stone building with lava for easiest reference) and raise the celining of the lighter sectors up like 512 or 1024 or whatever units. If you don't assign any upper sidedef textures after that it'll look like I guess you want it too.

[Tristan]

Antroid said:

Hey, just do what I did in map29 (use that one fireplace in that one stone building with lava for easiest reference) and raise the celining of the lighter sectors up like 512 or 1024 or whatever units. If you don't assign any upper sidedef textures after that it'll look like I guess you want it too.

yes, the illusio-chimneys worked. Although only if I got rid of all ceiling shadows (for realism the centre ones would stay), or the HOM was obvious. Ah well, shouldn't matter too much. Thanks.

[joe-ilya]

My map is done , now time to place monsters and skills :D

[cannonball]

joe-ilya said:

My map is done , now time to place monsters and skills :D

Awesome, is it possible to have a few cheeky screenshots :)

[Tristan]

Dead Simple - V3.3.8

Changes

• Tightened up ammo, bullets are very limited, so use some shells instead!
  
• Replaced shotgunners on plinths with chaingunners, can send the difficulty either way.
  
• The two Revenants on Medium also accompany the Baron on Hard, for progressive difficulty.
  
• The cacodemons in each area start by rising up out of the cracks.

[_bruce_]

Progress check - will take some more time.

http://i.imgur.com/FyWGn.gif

[Tristan]

_bruce_ said:

*second screenshot*

SKY1! I'm on to you Bruce!

Seriously though, that level seems to be shaping up nicely. I look forward to playing it.
There's 8 days until the ? maps are opened, Guess I'll have to send a bump PM O.o

[Antroid]

What the crap is up with the texture selection on that second screen? Only the flats seem right, all the sidedef textures are really random and out of place. 0_o

[joe-ilya]

starting area : http://pasteboard.co/1MrdjtIe.png

look behind : http://pbrd.co/12y2eaZ

i step on grass , how!? : http://pbrd.co/TNQlsE

im inside : http://pbrd.co/TNQvAm

i'm up the wooden platforms : http://pbrd.co/TNQCM5

im on the crates : http://pbrd.co/TNQFaH

fancy platforms :D : http://pbrd.co/TNQNXU

i'm inside the castle : http://pbrd.co/TNQT1B

spider master minds platform: http://pbrd.co/12y2GWV

if you want more download this : http://www.mediafire.com/?rfwzz296dljdgxg

[_bruce_]

Eris Falling said:

SKY1! I'm on to you Bruce!

Seriously though, that level seems to be shaping up nicely. I look forward to playing it.
There's 8 days until the ? maps are opened, Guess I'll have to send a bump PM O.o

I hope it hasn't to be finished in 8 days - that would be highly unlikely.
Played your latest edition and I think it seems complete to me. If you feel like it you could increase the arachnotron area a little bit in size to make it feel less urgent and more doable.