The DWmegawad Club plays: Back to Saturn X E1 & Favillesco E1

[Jayextee]

MAP08 - GET OUT OF MY STATIONS I

Hubby McHubhub. It's a hub. Hubcaps. I liked the music.

MAP09 - SOME DRILLING IMPLIED

This one managed to blindside me a couple of times, but nothing major. There's not a lot to say about it; layout would've been more confusing were it not for that fact that each section pretty much directs you to the next one; or where it joins an older one leading to the next one. It felt like jogging around in a pretzel-shape until the end.

I did like the Hellknight encounter at the end; even though I spammed the last of my rockets, two of the four left the main pack and came down the stairs -- something that looks more intelligent than Doom's monster routines really are. But it was neat.

A short and inoffensive map, for sure. It's alright.

[punnyone]

Map 08 - Hub - Even though this is just a transition level, the shadowy lighting job on it does look good and the music piece acts as the calm before the storm (or in the case of the last level, after the storm).

One minor issue I used to have was that there was no seamless transition between the levels and the hubs, you took a train at the end of the hub and the next level started off in a totally irreverent location. However, I usually make my own theory, ie, the door you have you back to at the start of map 9 leads to the tram station where you came from.

Map 09 - Some Drilling Implied - Essel/TraversD - 100% Kills,Items,Secrets. HMP Skill

A nice shorter level after the last 3 larger levels. Seeing how this is also the start of the next cluster, it's not too difficult, and I did't die once on it. Secrets are relatively easy to find if one has a habit of backtracking and checking every nook and cranny.

The predominant color scheme in the map is a brown techbase which gives it a worn and rusty feel in a way. Also, damaging floors (in this case, nukage), make another appearance after being absent for quite a few maps.

The ending ambush caught me off guard on my first playthrough last year, but it's not too difficult a battle so long as you have a quick trigger finger and room to dodge.

[j4rio]

Glad to see there are alterations of some maps happenning, those changes to 4 seem to take a turn for the better.

if one's hell bent on taking down the ledge mancos without really having to. Don't do it.

How about keeping just one manc and have the second one teleport in at that spot after picking RK?

[dew]

wellll... it'd probably save a few guys from SGing two mancos slowly, but then again it'd cut down player freedom a little bit. let's keep a balance between "not refined enough" and "overly scripted". ;)

[j4rio]

dew said:

then again it'd cut down player freedom a little bit. let's keep a balance between "not refined enough" and "overly scripted"

How would it impede freedom? What is considered 'freedom' here anyway? Where is the line between "not refined enough" and "overly scripted"? What is scriped about casual monster-teleport-in-from-dummy-room trick used since the existence of doom?

[Tompig]

Map 08 - Get out of my stations.

Hub, nice details... has sofas.

Map 09 - Some drilling implied.

We seem to have roped the difficulty back somewhat making this feel like the start of a new episode.

Not much to say on this one, fights were entertaining but nothing too special, detail was very good as always but it didn't really look like anything.

Highlight I think was the rather well defended exit room, but even this was quite tame in comparison to some previous maps.

Still a welcome addition, look forward to the rest of the wad.

[Suitepee]

http://youtu.be/KEdVZTn8v4o = promo video for my livestream of Back to Saturn X.

Well it's that time again. Time to spend another weekday night playing Doom wads for a small audience of fellow Doomers for the sake of a DWMegawad Club thread! Going to be tackling part 1 of Back to Saturn X next Thursday (15th August) at 7pm GMT/BST. Expecting some interesting atmospheric things from this one, since the only other space-themed wad I've played is Icarus-Alien Vanguard, which was awesomely varied.

Feel free to come join me on the night itself in a week's time, to throw tips and possibly some sticks & stones.

[traversd]

j4rio said:

How about keeping just one manc and have the second one teleport in at that spot after picking RK?

I dare say Essel or myself will make some changes based on the difficulty comments. As pointed out it is the start map of the next episode but the comments so far indicate it could have the stakes raised slightly.

Thank you for the comments and suggestions :o)

[Jayextee]

I'd say it's fine. That and the hub make for a nice breather.

[esselfortium]

The absence of SSG in MAP09 outside of a secret makes it a bit difficult to find a best fit of balance in its slot -- for continuous players the opposition is simple for their built-up arsenal, and for pistol-starting players adding too much more would probably be a slog.

[SavageCorona]

I want to join. How does one join? Post a video of me playing the wad?

[scifista42]

I want to join too. But unlike SavageCorona, I know how on it. I feel it's quite late now, so I'll try next month, or maybe when the Favillesco will be started.

You join by playing through the megawad day by day (roughly) and share your thoughts. That's all.

[cannonball]

scifista42 said:

I want to join too. But unlike SavageCorona, I know how on it. I feel it's quite late now, so I'll try next month, or maybe when the Favillesco will be started.

You join by playing through the megawad day by day (roughly) and share your thoughts. That's all.

Just start on map09 today, it's pretty much starting on map01 due to the level progression

[Jayextee]

scifista42 said:

You join by playing through the megawad day by day (roughly) and share your thoughts. That's all.

It really is this simple. Megawad Club started because so many of us start these things and never finish them -- we call that 'wad fatigue', where for some reason or another we're just tired of playing it and don't complete the thing.

It's actually really fun sharing thoughts with others on a common ground like this, especially when the mappers themselves (or someone involved in a collaborative project, like SteveD on last month's Realm of Chaos) have got something to say. Occasionally (and this thread is a great example) discussion happens. Feel free to join in!

MAP09 is a great starter in a way, even if it may be a little harsh to pistol-start. But you could play catchup with 2 maps a day (they're not super-long) until you're with the rest of us?

[The Green Herring]

Last night, I got the PSU in my desktop replaced, so now I can record on doom2.exe again. I'll be catching up, no matter how slowly. For now, here are my comments on the first level I played since my last post.

MAP06: Mix Up the Satellite by Trevor Primmett -

I've heard this level described as a "glorified hallway," which is interesting because it didn't feel that way to me. It's linear, but not in an incredibly blatant, not-even-trying way like the first few rooms of ZPack E2M2. It did, however, feel a little too easy. In particular, the battle with the arch-viles in the corpse pile (cleverly set up as it is) and the final room felt like they were meant to be much more difficult than they were. I did have a bit of trouble in other areas, but still, the opposition felt a little off that way. The blue armor secret rewards those curious enough to see if they can jump into a certain panel, not that I needed that or the soul sphere.

Note for the FDA: At one point, I stand still for a few seconds. This is not because I was checking the automap, but because I was pausing to retrieve my phone from my pocket.

FDA (doom2.exe v1.9, Ultra-Violence, 13:52 level/total time, 104% Kills/83% Items/0% Secrets, no deaths): https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6650582/BTSX-E1M6-FDA-byTGH.zip

(Video to be recorded eventually.)

[j4rio]

Map 10 - played twice, once UV once solo-net, pistol start, glb+

Allright let's get this out of the way, overall I didn't like this. At all. The gameplay had me mentally suffering during vast majority of map during both playthroughs. I actually gave it another third try on casual UV but nope, even with preknowledge and remembering stuff all around it was still the same map I haven't enjoyed twice in a row just a few moments before, so scratch that. Gameplay is just subpar, which is especially disappointing considering other author's works are huge source of inspirative gameplay 'scripts'.

I'll go from start. The starting point itself doesn't bother me in any way, a simple sg ordeal, just delife hitscan spreading stuff and optional unthreatening bunch of imps in distant sight and go on. From the moment of grabbing chaingun onwards, however, it gets uninteresting. The outside hillsy section holds encounters that I just didn't find interesting for current arsenal. Monsters, as usual, thrown straight into player's sight with not even a sign of scripted little thingy about to happen and instead completely nothing happenning at all, not even a single linedef utilized to make things more interesting, despite layout riping for it. Imps on higher cliffs which are unthreatening and boring to remove could be accompanied by additional barrel or two, namely at least some of sectors 1184, 1148, 1151, 1170, 1174 and 1168. Thing 424 (gray tree) is placed in void. Thing 701 (chaingunner) could be changed to revenant and accompanied by a barrel or two. Thing 678 (cacodemon) could be replaced by pain elemental in hard difficulty.

(...)

Allright let's move on with rant on 10. In the ssg room - opposition around entrance of this room is meh, just more timewaste for cg/sg. I'd consider making lifts impossible to activate by those walkover lines and instead have a switch in the middle of room doing that job. As it is, you'd be probably brought to safe distance from this room without even knowing how it happenned if you decide to use place around lifts as cover. I'm not sure if I like PE here, I think 3-4 lost souls in its place would have been sufficient on UV instead, I'd keep it just for coop. Distant unthreatening imps are becoming a trademark in this map and we see a bunch of them in this room as well. Another problem - it's possible to miss ssg, which was obviously kept in mind when working on gameplay. The downside effect to it is that up to next ssg placed in RK section, the map just can't get really interesting and has to work for either possible arsenal currently weilded by player. Something like that is VERY difficult to achieve in fashion, if not impossible. This map just does it in a safe way and throws only weaker stuff on the path, making encounters quite unsatisfying for ssg weilder, and I'm not willing to find out how it works for sg/cg player. The first note regarding solo-net - that cyb has a hilariously weird placement here. Some rooms onwards, we get to outside bit housing RK. First time playing on casual UV (solo-net has RL near start), I missed rocket launcher and this encounter just turned to endless bore. It's actually offering quite boring encounter even if I DO have rocket launcher, so making it just possible for player to enter without it is something I think is out of question. The room with rl is also barely of much interest. RK room near start already assumes that we definitely acquired ssg, but encounters still doesn't feel like livening up, offering just weaklings at the entrance and not too interestingly placed mancs. Monster closets with a numerous weaker content opens up eventually, but there's a wall holding whole content at bay and prevents from spreading around room. The rest of encounter up to BK consists of just lone high tier monsters that just didn't offer too much. AV teleporting in after picking BK was also quite crude, with all that unused wall I expected more stuff guarding BK. Progressing further, the room accessible by BK with just arach and imps on ceiling you can barely see in it is completely pointless. Cleaning up upcoming encounter was just fine, but it lasted only up to before PG, where opposition gets boring once again, with 3 arachs just taking up space and double avs used in rather amateurish, unthreatening and unsatisfying way. Lowering YK finally reveals some closet with a bunch of monsters... that gets entirely cleaned out in just a few halfdecently aimed rockets. YK room at first offers 2 pointless circular rooms that add nothing of any value to gameplay whatsoever. The exit room is probably the only place in map I genuinely liked.

demos - http://filesmelt.com/dl/saturnx-stuff-j42.zip

skillsaw said:

I don't like map 10 either, j4rio. I made it a very long time ago TBH so it's kind of a relic that's refused to die. The map was done at least a month before I even started working on Vanguard and I was still learning what kind of map I actually liked to make.

That's actually quite a relief to hear.

[skillsaw]

I don't like map 10 either, j4rio. I made it a very long time ago TBH so it's kind of a relic that's refused to die. The map was done at least a month before I even started working on Vanguard and I was still learning what kind of map I actually liked to make.

[Moustachio]

MAP09:

[Tarnsman]

If Skillsaw doesn't make a totally new map the barrels suggestion would really liven up the map.

[Demon of the Well]

Map 08 -- Get Out of My Stations I
This is, of course, the hub map. It currently contains no combat and, as far as I can tell, nothing hidden to find. Its only real purposes are for atmosphere, to help solidify the WAD's overall setting, and to delineate the second 'episode' (or 'cluster') from the first. It doesn't go for spectacle; it looks as carefully crafted as most everything else in the WAD, yes, but hasn't got much in the way of eyecandy, most of its aesthetic virtues being understated (the SID-style fade-to-black effect on the walls in the tram tunnels, the clever guide texture, and so on). There are a few corpses scattered about as reminders of the horror of the greater situation, but the overall mood of the place is restful and tranquil, rather than ominous or oppressive.

Some will see this kind of map as little more than a time-wasting gewgaw, of course; it's certainly true that the real point of the game is found in the infested stations, not here in the interim. But, for my part, I wholeheartedly approve of the inclusion of bits of narrative like this, particularly in a WAD that strives to instill a sense of place to the degree that this one does (via aesthetic cohesiveness, via the episodic cluster setup, etc.). BTSX is, of course, far from the first WAD to employ this concept, but it is generally proportionally rather rare in the history of PWADs (esp. outside of ZDooM WADs), which is something of a minor shame. I look forward to seeing what sort of developments there might be in this hub as it is revisited later in the WAD.

Map 09 -- Some Drilling Implied - 100% Kills / 100% Secrets
My overall assessment is about in line with that of Cannonball and j4rio, in that I felt this to be rather underwhelming....I believe my favorite thing about it was the music track, actually. I think the difficulty is pitched pretty appropriately for being the first area in the second cluster, and there aren't any disproportionately glaring flaws that come to mind....it's simply that it lacks any one particular thing--be it an unusual quirk of layout, an interesting or challenging fight, a visually impressive structure or vista, etc.--upon which to hang its hat. Note that I'm not intending to say that I think it feels particularly 'samey', although naturally some of the author's design propensities as also seen in map 04 are here as well--as far as details go, I would say that the map does still have its own identity distinct from its predecessors, i.e. it seems like it aims for a more noticeably pressuring 'get a shotgun, quick!' task (from pistol-start) than most of the prior maps, focuses more on short-range combat than most prior maps, uses monster closets a bit more liberally, etc.

These apologetics aside, the main problem is that, moreso than in any other map thus far, there's not much to do other than shoot groups of monsters a few paces away on your level, rinse and repeat. There is some height variation, most notably in the room with the severe staircase and the SSG secret, but architecturally the whole thing is generally so compact, concise, and understated that you'll naturally tend to find yourself fighting with things from spitting distance away, even in cases where they can't actually reach you due to minor height variation or a fence or whatnot. This kind of gameplay can be fine in small doses/when carried off well, but here it's mostly makework, largely owing to in-map weapon progression. Perhaps it's more an issue of expectation than execution--I don't mind being made to use the basic shotgun and chaingun a lot, but they aren't the weapons of choice (tactically or from a flow perspective) for the kind of room-clearing we do here. These tight spaces packed full of little guys (with occasional corpulent blobs of demonic HP) are prime SSG territory, but that weapon only shows up halfway in, and in a secret, at that. Doing this work with smaller weapons doesn't really add challenge, in this case, simply elapsed time. The rocket launcher has a similar issue--while there are a few spots throughout where it could be useful, it only shows up after these have all fallen by the wayside--myself, I think I only made relevant use of it against the group of knights in the exit chamber, and that only because I had a stockpile of rockets at that point, which I attribute to the weird timing of its appearance. I suspect this map is actually more fun on a continuous playthrough, come to think of it; an easy way to pep it up on pistol-start might be to make the hidden SSG the RL instead, and have the SSG itself show up even earlier.

Aesthetically, it's a similar issue--nothing is broken, nothing looks tacky or ugly, it's skillfully and carefully put together, etc. etc.--there's just not much 'wow' factor, no particular centerpiece. In some ways, I suspect this would have been better as 'Some Drilling Shown', rather than 'Some Drilling Implied.' There are some pleasant little details, like the crates mostly submerged in ooze in the SSG area or the techlamps used to accent skylights, but these are too subtle to really carry the day. I would say the most visually memorable thing is that odd Picasso-esque staircase, honestly.

It certainly ain't a bad map, all things considered, but it's certainly outclassed in most respects by the maps it's sharing the WAD with, including the others worked on by one of the same authors.

[punnyone]

I actually enjoyed map 10 visually, (more on that tomorrow). Although since I haven't replayed it yet, I can't say how the combat is, which seems to be the complaint. Worst comes to worse, someone could mix up the monster encounters.

Still I don't see why anyone would consider scrapping it. Even though I don't think there's any BAD maps in the pack, if I personally had to chop 2-3 maps, this one wouldn't be one of them.

[Tarnsman]

Skillsaw doesn't like the layout. Which is the reason he's never revamped the gameplay. Hence, just make a new level.

[dew]

Tarnsman said:

Skillsaw doesn't like the layout. Which is the reason he's never revamped the gameplay. Hence, just make a new level.

he actually did, the map got an overhaul a few years ago (that sounds silly), but it's possible skillsaw just pronounced the preexisting layout problems even further, because he made most of the areas bigger without changing the overall progression.

[Steve D]

Map08 - Episode Hub by esselfortium

I thought this hub looked super cool and very creepy. Loved the fuzzy darkness over the tracks. Well-observed architecture abounds, and the sofas looked unusually cool for Doom Furniture. The Untilted music track was exceptional, nice ambient stuff suitable for a creepy techbase map. For an actual map to play, I'd like some industrial horror music added to provide some sense of drive.

I'll copy cannonball and give a quick summary of my feelings about the first cluster.

The most fun maps to play were Map03 and Map07, closely followed by Map04. Map05 was great fun on pistol start, but way too easy on continuous, except for the big Cyb fight. The only map I didn't like was Map06, which to me was a meat-slog corridor crawl.

My favorite map, however, is Map01. The stunning architecture, including the opening courtyard, the Mordeth bridge, and the Caco fight area as IMO the visual standouts, combined with the incredible, moody music track, all combined to give this map superior atmosphere and immersion. And I realized something about myself, because I usually play a map once and only once. The maps I come back to again and again are the ones, like this one, with superior mood and atmosphere. This includes my favorite IWAD episode, Knee Deep In The Dead, the Fava Beans mapset, the Eqyptian mod Osiris, and my favorite single-level map, Doomsday of The UAC, with its incredible invisible staircase, IMO the single greatest moment in PWAD history. It's been all downhill since '94. ;D

Several writers have commented about whether this or that map is memorable. I can tell you now that Map01 for me is definitely memorable, because I remembered it so clearly, and so fondly, since playing it last year, and I did a bit of gushing over it in the BTSX thread, IIRC. So I can guarantee that I will remember this map and will play it again, a few times at least, not so much for the gameplay, which isn't bad at all, but to experience its atmosphere and immersion.

[dew]

Playtester's War Journal, day05: Total Exposure (Pavera)

YouTube: UV SoloNet Max in 6:51 (played on v. 099j5)

When I played and finished this map for the first time I restarted the map immediately without monsters and just ran through at top speed, because the open layout, the wide path ahead, the clean, almost undetailed borders just begged for a nice sr50 speedrun. With the outer path looping back to the beginning, metallic grey theme and pseudo-finish line exit room it looks like the bastard son of Wipeout and Quake 2. This very linear but very speedy concept is wonderfully goofy and I pity the fool that hangs back and takes potshots at enemies. :)

The map does a good job drawing player into new areas for the most part. The SSG invites you to slalom through the pinkies, because who'd bother taking them down with chaingun or something? The valley terrorized by spiders also forces you to dash for the key under heavy fire, because angles and ammo supplies play against you this time. The only part that grinds down to halt is, of course, the cyb room. The first cyb of the megawad is nerfed into a glorified rocket turret, but it makes him more durable and less prone to taking out everything else in the room for you. Player also gets to decide whether to bother with him at all, or just hit all the right buttons and leave. As far as cyb introductions go it's a good one, imo - especially because you're not handed proper tools to waste him in a few seconds.

We discussed the pacing problems of the fight and it's probably going to be a compromise. Plasma will be there (already is?) for the lower difficulties, but no plasma for UV, because stop crying, you pampered sissies! In my day before they invented guns we fought cyberdemons with our bare fists and didn't even whine about chipped nails on Facegram. On a serious(er) note, the possible issue of outcamping the battle and that rather annoying ninja vile will probably be dealt with in a two-birds-one-stone fashion.

As for the demo i made... not much to say. It's a more casual attempt than the suicidal grind of the previous map, so the movement's a bit slacky and pain dealt upon monsters suboptimal. It was fun recording it though, no vessels popping in my eyes.

Fun Fact: The secret is a secret, because the map didn't have one, but I kept forgetting about that... appendix and the goodies inside, what with the track wooing to press on, always forward, never look back. Pav thought it fitting to flag it as, well, an ironic secret?

[cannonball]

MAP10 - “A Proud And Booming Industry” by Skillsaw
Ha you can tell this was an early effort just by realising that you have travelled through 75% of the map before seeing a revenant :P
The map looks nice with its mix of tech/nukage/outdoor and cavern areas so there is good variety. Just the gameplay is extremely slow in the first 75% of the map. I feel a little dubious about the rocket launcher placement, it would have really helped in the red key area (not to save my life, but because I ran out of ammo in that spot and had to leave the imps behind)
Actually this is a regular occurrence in this map. Imps on every hill, every little alcove who pose a threat value of zero who I feel obliged to kill. If I returned I would send a message to them to just not bother turning up.
Things just didn't happen in this map, the red key area, I fought cacos and mancubi, lower the red key and it's a rinse and repeat of some of the slowest monsters around.
The map did improve later on and killed me twice, the first was stupidly running away from an archvile in the blue key area and got trapped in the lowered section with the crates by hellknights on both sides. The second was in the exit room which was pretty decent.
Again a rather mediocre map just crying for something exciting to happen but it just doesn't happen.

[Capellan]

map10
I like the looks of this: the various areas with ledges and platforms overlooking nukage are done well, and the blending in of rocky areas in some sections provides a break from the tech base theme.

Gameplay-wise, I didn't have any large complaints. I'm playing continuously though, which means that I don't have to deal with any sloggy sg/cg sections if I don't want to. The red key trap is very easy to run away from, though - and for whatever reason the monsters never followed me out of there. My favorite sections were the northern outdoor area, and the western section leading up to getting the yellow key.

[dobu gabu maru]

Only have time for quick commentary before bed. To celebrate the portioned nature of the episodes, I'm relinquishing all my weapons each time I arrive to the hub.

MAP08: First off, that midi is soooooo good. I'm a Stars of the Lid fan and just hearing drones as I walk around an empty terminal was sending shivers up my spine. It's a great act break between each little section, and I spent some time just walking around and looking at stuff. I really like how well the other side of the tram abyss looks, the texture nicely fading into dark. Only thing I'm bummed about is that you can't sit/stand on any of the sofas :(

[j4rio]

dew said:

We discussed the pacing problems of the fight and it's probably going to be a compromise. Plasma will be there (already is?) for the lower difficulties, but no plasma for UV, because stop crying, you pampered sissies! In my day before they invented guns we fought cyberdemons with our bare fists and didn't even whine about chipped nails on Facegram. On a serious(er) note, the possible issue of outcamping the battle and that rather annoying ninja vile will probably be dealt with in a two-birds-one-stone fashion.

Plasma has been in lower difficulty already.

The issue with that fight is if you don't handle it exactly as you did in demo, chances are it would turn boring. And no, thanks, but getting suicidal for fun isn't my kind of treating survivability. Any casual player with some self-respect will take out the cyb as soon as possible, because that thing spews shit that removes you if you make one wrong move, and since map suddenly allows me to, why not doing it? If I skip him, who knows what crap will surround the map? It may be a novelty when handled in demo-ish way, but if you want to maintain survivability, that encounter as a whole needs more to it.

dew said:
As for the demo i made... not much to say. It's a more casual attempt than the suicidal grind of the previous map, so the movement's a bit slacky and pain dealt upon monsters suboptimal. It was fun recording it though, no vessels popping in my eyes.

One vessel would be that you missed a monster. :P

Also, edited my previous post.

[dew]

j4rio said:

One vessel would be that you missed a monster. :P

that's a bug, the spider is deaf and doesn't teleport. i'm not sure how that could've happened. :)