The DWmegawad Club plays: Back to Saturn X E1 & Favillesco E1

[marineController]

dew said:

he just walks towards the hole and disappears, try idclipping to him from start. i don't understand why this is happening. :/

It looks like there is a problem with the nodes on this map.

[mouldy]

MAP12 - “Underground Initiations” by Traversd/Skillsaw

That was an epic map, I enjoyed every one of the 47 minutes it took to beat it. Being such an open adventure I managed to pick the route that left me without any big guns for longer than was comfortable, thats just luck of the draw though with so many paths to choose from, and a secret SSG saved the day. I actually found 6 out of the 7 secrets which made a nice change. Definitely needed automap on this one, and there were a couple of lost moments, but its a great map to explore, loads of varied locations. The lava section was particularly cool. Think this might join map 7 in equal first place for favourite map so far.

[NuMetalManiak]

MAP12 Underground Initiations

For Christ's sake help me, this was HUGE.

But thankfully combat here is much more tamer though, and I decided to use the chaingun for pretty much the first half of the map. Another nonlinear layout of sorts, where the red and blues keys are first acquired before the yellow. Red key wasn't much, though it's possible to miss some monsters, including an archvile, if one ignores the blue doors (usually if they go for the red key first, like I did.) Blue key area isn't anything too interesting, the spiderdemon was pretty easy. Southern part of the level with the yellow key and all was most interesting. Quite easy to get lost, and there's also lotsa nukage. Somehow, I discovered how to get the key by complete accident, but it didn't matter cuz I'm too busy with monster mashing. I will say though, I love the trap in the megasphere secret in the southeast, even though the monster teleporter lines only work once and if one gets the BFG secret before it and is prepared, they can kill most of the monsters in short order. Onwards to the three-key door, this finale was a good one for me. These walls, they lower and bring me lotsa monsters, ranging from imps, mancubi, spectres, and a cyberdemon. Got lucky with BFG'ing the guy too, and with that I can say while it's pretty frakking long, it's much more fun than previous levels, and is my new favorite map. Final Time 18:42.

[Veinen]

Map11: The Colossus Crawls West

FDA. UV/solo-net, no deaths, missed one monster, final time 17:32.

This was fucking great. This is a full blown ssg-fest with little need for other weapons and while it may not appeal to everyone, I sure did love it. Ridiculously fun to play and with all the traps it managed to keep me on my toes throughout the map too. The traps are seriously everywhere, every new room and switch you press there's something teleporting in. It makes for exciting gameplay but I guess they were all kinda samey since my strategy of choice worked almost every time. That is, backtrack to the previous room or the one before that and then do that in reverse while mowing down the opposition. It gets a bit easy when you're expecting them but it's not like there couldn't be any variation so you can't really lower your guard too much.

The best moments in my opinion were the very first claustrophobic teleport trap, the battle on the hillside and this one trap that is triggered when you go into an alcove and suddenly monsters teleport into the YK room and to the corridor to your left. The first one was just intense and potentially dangerous if you can’t thin the herd quickly enough. The second one was very nicely designed, there’s no real cover so the player has to keep moving all the time and the height variation mixes things up a bit too. The third ambush was actually pretty unexpected and I took some serious damage there as I couldn’t really escape quickly. Those are just my top three favorites though, it’s not like the rest of the map is unmemorable or anything. Visually it’s maybe one the least impressive maps so far but I wouldn’t say it’s bad either. I thought it lacked some variation as it’s mostly insides of a techbase. Still, this ties map07 as my favorite map so far.

Next up is the epic that is map12. Playing on solonet, I laugh heartily at cannonballs notion that the finale was easy.

[Jayextee]

MAP12 - Underground Initiations

From the offset, I knew this would be a meandering one; and it kinda is. I say 'kinda' because the interconnectivity and landmarking were second-to-none, save for the trudge through the slimy ravine to get to the red key door that leads to the warehouse area housing the yellow key. It has the illusion of being more non-linear than it is, but that's not a bad thing; certain areas can be tackled in more than one way.

But boy, is this stage long. Longer than I like; I've now gone from saving at the start of maps only to my own personal system of "keydoor is a checkpoint".

I liked most of it though. Early on it would've been a bit of a snooze were it not for the fact that I left the previous level on low health, and this one doesn't hand it out much. At first. Later on, health was in abundance, but that's okay. I liked the small 'arena' at the end, although Cyberdude was pretty much optional.

A nice enough map, just a bit long. I think 75% of its length (maybe cull the wandering through a rocky and slimy ravine?) and it'd be just fine.

[esselfortium]

@Hurricyclone: In MAP12, you can actually get the keys in any order you like, and getting them in a different order can change how it plays if you make use of the key-locked shortcut doors in each area.

[NuMetalManiak]

So I coulda got the yellow key before the others? o_O

Granted, this is the first time I've ever played BTSX so I wouldn't know what to expect.

At least I didn't die 11 times on this one.

[ClonedPickle]

MAP12: Long As Shit

But not bad at all. I got hella murdered in the megasphere secret because I was thinking "ooh imps I can use more berserk" and then suddenly 3 archviles and barons and sadface. Coming back to that with BFG Justice was pretty satisfying, at least. I certainly hope there aren't many more 40+ minute maps given my UV/pistol start/no saves playstyle that I'm getting used to here, but this was still quite enjoyable. Pretty decent exit room, the pillars help make the cyber fight feel claustrophobic without actually being claustrophobic (although he still didn't even scorch me). Oh, and I'd like to thank this map for making me realize the awesomeness of Liquid Luck.


I still think the "forcefield" colored bars are silly, though.

[j4rio]

Map 12 - played twice, once UV once solo-net, pistol start, glb+

The first time I played this on UV, all I could think of was 'a huge, disappointing bore'. Combat was in vast majority of map simplistic, unengaging, uninteresting and took too long to be tolerable. After around 15 minutes in I just wanted this disaster to end, so I can forget about this and move on.

A fine first experience, isn't it? I had hard time even mustering willpower to replay it with solo-net. Surprisingly, those few additional monsters at the beginning make the scene much more lively, especially when considering limited ammo given. Now, let's move onto the first secret behind chainsaw. That ssg secret is bad. It makes a gigantic leap in how upcoming encounters consisting of usually unthreatening huge monsters are about to be handled, so making it only optional is just stupid, kill that secret with fire. Either dump ssg in place of chainsaw, or delete that secret entirely with its content. I'd personally favor removal, because another error can rise and shine. Now what awaits ahead is a case of non-linearity done just wrong. Without ssg, weilding just sg+cg, you can pick 3 paths. The RK way gives away different non-secret ssg after you take out one manc, one spider and a little bunch of weaklings and demons. The BK route forces you to remove one manc, cacos, a lot of imps/hitscan, then 4 chainers, then more weaklings, then more cacos, and before getting to ssg you still have a hk and rev in the way. Now as for YK route... opposition at first consists of mainly loads of weak stuff, a baron (!) and a bunch of cacos, but there is no non-secret ssg, just another one that is in secret. Like... why?. What the hell is the point of making such huge difference in how you (don't) acquire ssg. Opposition overall was nowhere near as exciting as in map 11, getting back to btsx standarts. I didn't mind Bk/RK routes, they were relatively fine, except for the silly BK spiderdemon. RK monsters teleporting in once key gets revealed could contain an archvile mixed in the bulk on solo-net instead of having it almost alone with chaingunner in different closet. YK route was by far weakest, there was just too little to it, and it just dragged and dragged on without offering almost anything of interest, just lots of spread lone monsters or couples, rarely groups consisting of weak monsters, except for that one bit with 4 mancs and another with 2 avs mixed into bunch of hitscanners and imps. The ending bit was again the only part I genuinely enjoyed, which is just underwhelming. Also, I would never ever find that blue armor secret no matter what, even if my life was dependant on it - I found it in solo-net because I did some DB searching before to have an idea about secret contents. Another thing - please make RK lava do just 10 damage, with 20 you can get hit even with radsuit, which is retarded.

demos - http://filesmelt.com/dl/saturnx-stuff-j45.zip

[Seele00TextOnly]

^ One of the changes for the map that was already discussed yesterday in the dev chan was to just give the SSG right at the start.

As for your consistent hatred of the Doom monsters ('They're weak!!! D:') and ever, ever having to encounter them head on: I have no idea what your deal is. 'Shooting things in front of me?!?! What is wrong with you map designers!!!' I'm not sure how you ever enjoy this game, or any wads of it.

Roaming around a map, shooting things and obtaining keys to get to an exit! It's really quite intolerable, isn't it.

[Jayextee]

I draw the line at THINGS. Any mapper who uses things in their maps is fucking shit. I hate them, and their families.

[Memfis]

Well, there is a difference between "open a door, see a few monsters, kill them from the entrance while strafing left and right a bit" and "run around an area a lot, avoid getting cornered by the ground level monsters but at the same time pay attention to the cacodemons above and to the snipers on tall pillars, while using these pillars to hide from that arch-vile's deadly attacks", for example.

[j4rio]

Yeah, I'm such an annoying freak, isn't it?

I don't hate doom monsters, they're cool, why would I do that? I just don't like if they are used badly, have little to no purpose, or in other words are used in an improvable way. Shooting monsters was a novelty in 1994, by now a little more thought can be poured into that, aye? There may be reason why wads like sod and such are generally treated in so high regards. I don't mean difficulty at all, even easiest maps from that wad in particular leave a purpose for majority of deployed bestiary. I don't get that feel from btsx. Sure, I admit I look like I'm a minority here, but I'm willing to bet I'm not the only one with such stance.

[dew]

You're annoying, but entitled to your opinions! Keep criticizing, citizien. Even if just a tenth of your utterly unbearable whining leads to changes, it means progress towards brighter days from both our and your perspective! ;)

[cannonball]

j4rio said:

Yeah, I'm such an annoying freak, isn't it?

I don't hate doom monsters, they're cool, why would I do that? I just don't like if they are used badly, have little to no purpose, or in other words are used in an improvable way. Shooting monsters was a novelty in 1994, by now a little more thought can be poured into that, aye? There may be reason why wads like sod and such are generally treated in so high regards. I don't mean difficulty at all, even easiest maps from that wad in particular leave a purpose for majority of deployed bestiary. I don't get that feel from btsx. Sure, I admit I look like I'm a minority here, but I'm willing to bet I'm not the only one with such stance.

Nope, precisely my stance, I am baffled to see any logic which shows that killing 60 imps on cliff faces and alcoves could be anything other than a chore. Sorry map10.
The map designs so far have been excellent, layouts are great, I like the music. Just deploying monsters in these maps feels so restrained and cautious. The maps rely on initial placement and don't add any more monsters on the whole to the map through monster closets and teleport traps. My favourite maps so far are 3, 7 and 11 and guess what they all had in common, they all contained these traps in a reasonable amount.

[j4rio]

cannonball said:

Nope, precisely my stance

HIghfive!

I don't mean that I find 'teleport traps' and 'monster closets' lacking to be the single worst opposing thing ever. It's just easiest way of achieving the process of making gameplay more interesting. There are really lots of ways in managing that, but usually it's layout dependant, while namely 'teleport traps' and 'monster closets' are not. You can get teleported straight into action, or just face single monsters with minimal dodging space, or endless amounts of other instances limited only by imagination.

[cannonball]

Disclaimer - I apologise for the early posting of my thoughts to map13, this is due to being away for the entirety of tomorrow, please send all your complaints to Evotec.
MAP13 - “I'll Replace You With Machines” by Esselfortium/Skillsaw
This map started well throwing a double AV trap right off the bat, then I remember nothing until the blue key which I survived because I had 100/200 due to not being hit once for like 5 minutes. I died in the room with the two lifts on each side because a pain elemental went on a lost soul spam and I ran out of ammo (that was my only death), I would tag this on, the map seemed to get easier as you progressed, well in my opinion it did.
Again the gameplay is really forgettable except for said locations, the map also feels like an "esselfied" version of the previous map. It's pretty linear and straight though in contrast to the previous map. Again I like how you looped round to get the key and have easy return to the door which required the key to exit the map. Also ammo was well balanced as I left with just a couple of rockets and a few plasma cells left.
Not much else to say, typical strengths and weaknesses of this mapset so far are present in this map in spades.
If everyone uses esselfied enough, maybe we can get it inserted into the english dictionary :P

[Steve D]

cannonball said:

Nope, precisely my stance, I am baffled to see any logic which shows that killing 60 imps on cliff faces and alcoves could be anything other than a chore. Sorry map10.

I didn't have as much problem with that, especially on continuous, but I concur that there were too many Imps sniping from cliffs. If each 2 Imps were replaced by a mix of 1 Sergeant, Chaingunner or Revvie, the gameplay would be dramatically different, though perhaps inspiring a different complaint, i.e., it encourages the player to camp at entryways and snipe out enemies who might otherwise make an area near-impossible to survive. But there is a balance to be struck here.

BTW, I forgot to mention, the Chaingunner sniper on the path to the chainsaw on Map10 is almost guaranteed to kill himself by shooting the barrels next to him. Chuckles, I guess, but it means he poses no threat. I also objected to the Manc surrounded by barrels. This kinda stuff seemed gimmicky and dialed down the threat too much.

cannonball said:

The maps rely on initial placement and don't add any more monsters on the whole to the map through monster closets and teleport traps. My favourite maps so far are 3, 7 and 11 and guess what they all had in common, they all contained these traps in a reasonable amount.

Actually, Map10 did have teleport and monster closet traps, I guess the debate would be whether the amount was "reasonable." I would say, it wasn't quite enough, but since I like what DoTW describes as "incidental combat," I don't think an enormous increase is necessary. I've been pretty happy with the maps so far, for the most part, but they could be a bit more difficult. I haven't hit a 10-death map yet, which for me is where a good, tough map is measured, but further, I need to be killed in more than one place for it to really count and indicate the map has generally tough combat as opposed to one nasty Hamburger Hill. I died 9 times on Map05 and 8 on Map06, but in both cases it was because of one specific set-piece that plays to my personal weaknesses. Both maps, as a whole, were otherwise very easy, and in the case of Map05, I only died 3 times on pistol start because I decided to let the Cyb survive. So basically, that map was easy to me, though very fun on pistol. Weird. ;D

So it remains to be seen whether any map in BTSX E1 can hand my ass to me 20 times as did E2M5 of cannonball's Concerned, or the 14 deaths I suffered on E3M8 while playing on HNTR. Well, it ain't over yet. ;D

[dew]

Teleporting the player is highly gimmicky and breaks the fourth wall very, very fast if used repeatedly. Monsters teleporting from outside of the map are almost a cheap cliche, but one of the valid methods, sure. There will be some of that in the upcoming maps, I promise, heh. BtSX tries to not overdo it with teleport cavalry, however, as it also feels quite meta and not immersive after a while. Closets feel the least gimmicky when you repeat them over and over, however they're much trickier to build right to endanger the player, so some traps might feel like duds, I'll freely admit that.

I'm a massive fan of monsters teleporting within the map via monster teleport lines, a technique that seems underused overall. Maybe I could sneak in more of those for greater trap efficiency without resorting to boringly cliched "surprises".

[cannonball]

That is right Steve, in my review of the map I said the map did get a lot better after the blue key door (i think, well approaching the yellow key in any case). Ironically I preferred the environment of the first half of the map.
I think you will receive quite a bit of grief on the next map ;)

[Jayextee]

Are imps on cliffs really such a bad thing? The way I see it, they're an annoyance that can help stop the player from finding sweet spots in an arena; they're annoying to shoot, so many players won't bother - which increases the threat level a little. Players that do? They have less ammo to play with.

I'd rather imps than barons on ledges anyway.

[cannonball]

Jayextee said:

Are imps on cliffs really such a bad thing? The way I see it, they're an annoyance that can help stop the player from finding sweet spots in an arena; they're annoying to shoot, so many players won't bother - which increases the threat level a little. Players that do? They have less ammo to play with.

I'd rather imps than barons on ledges anyway.

Hell knights and barons would be much worse
Thing is imps don't fire particularly fast and even weaving around the battlefield oblivious to them will very rarely result in a hit. Minor hitscan like zombies and sergeants are much better for these positions. Chaingunners are probably going too far.

[Tarnsman]

It's all about play preferences, maps with less "traps" are a lot more enjoyable to play to people like dew and myself who enjoy just blitzing through everything and playing as aggressively as possible. Where as the trap laden stuff is less so. For example J4rio listed DR2008 map 2 as a good example of "threatening the player" and "making a map interesting" so I played it, and it was one of the biggest piles of shit I've ever played and a prime example of why traps need to be used sparingly. The map was basically THE HALLWAY.wad except for the first half of the map I just held down fire on the chaingun knowing exactly where every trap would open up (because when you spam traps like that they become so goddamn predictable) and the second half of the map was repeated boring circle strafes in ever room with equally predictable traps. And the level didn't even have structure on its side. The architecture was extremely bland and restricted to one movement plane with almost zero height variation sans retarded floor bumpiness that didn't need to exist.

A good trap is really cool every now and again but it gets boring as shit when constantly used. It would be like if Scythe 2 was map 23-25 and 27-30 on every single map. The break-up really helps to not only make those maps stand out more but give them mapset a better overall flow.

As for imps on cliffs? Just don't kill them. It's not that hard. I understand that there is a compelling force that makes you want to make the game less fun for yourself, but you should really resist it. (Not that I'm against adding barrels to make killing them easier, adding barrels is always the right choice no matter what).

Edit: Yes other monsters sans hell knights and barons make for better cliffside attackers.

[Steve D]

cannonball said:

I think you will receive quite a bit of grief on the next map ;)

Map11? Pistol start remains to be seen, but it was a fun Map on continuous. However, in spite of all the traps, I had zero deaths and ended with 100 health and 141 armor and lots of medikits left behind. The biggest problem for me was getting lost at the end until I finally used the automap to find my way back to the exit. ;D

Well, time to do the pistol-start . . .

[mouldy]

Personally I'd prefer monsters placed in a well designed layout to badly implemented traps.

I think this demo of me playing map 11 says more than I ever could:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/ku82dn9xukjlzr6/btsx-11-mouldy.lmp

I'm shooting nearly everything through doorways, generally only dealing with stuff from direction, at eye level, and without having to move around much other than strolling away from the traps to camp outside doorways again. I'm still a bit baffled at the praise its getting, maybe its just the way I'm playing it..

[j4rio]

Tarnsman said:

It's all about play preferences, maps with less "traps" are a lot more enjoyable to play to people like dew and myself who enjoy just blitzing through everything and playing as aggressively as possible.

The downside to it is that you need to know a map beforehand to do that comfortably, unless you like dying. Skipping monsters in unexplored maps is pointlessly risky. That's what speedrunning is for, where you can completely remove that barrier. For casual playing, I prefer trying to remain alive. Sure, now that I know the map I can make it harder for myself by playing god, and I'll most likely enjoy it because that's guaranteed fun, but don't expect that when it's the first time I see unknown map.

Tarnsman said:

For example J4rio listed DR2008 map 2 as a good example of "threatening the player" and "making a map interesting" so I played it, and it was one of the biggest piles of shit I've ever played and a prime example of why traps need to be used sparingly.

The only reason I listed it was because it contains a huge showcase of possibilities how to liven up gameplay, not because of being the godliest doom experience ever. That map did overdo it (I admitted that back then!), but that wasn't my point. For a good example of "threatening the player" and "making a map interesting" even good 'ol plutonia would have been more than sufficient example.

[NuMetalManiak]

SteveD said:

Map11?...zero deaths

Oh...Sonuva bitch! I was hoping that you'd die here at least once. I played continuous and died about 11 times! My carelessness and kamikaze style (and the berserk pack) must've run me through.

[Steve D]

Hurricyclone said:

Oh...Sonuva bitch! I was hoping that you'd die here at least once. I played continuous and died about 11 times! My carelessness and kamikaze style (and the berserk pack) must've run me through.

I have good news for you, I died once on pistol start. ;) I mishandled the very first Revvie and got taken out thanks to accumulated damage. This map is actually super-easy for a casual save-and-reload player. I might have died twice more if I hadn't reloaded a game when my health got below 30%.

Yeah, I can see how going kamikaze in this map would result in a high death count. I made use of the Zerk, too, but because my skills are low, I only punch Pinkies. There were many situations when I had to use ssg/cg instead because the Pinkies had Imps and hitscanners mixed in with them, and punching those is a good way for me to get killed. The yellow key area is a good example of my cheesy approach. When the walls come down in the yellow key room, you can access a room loaded with Pinkies and Imps. I learned to creep up to the openings and show my shoulder so the Pinkies saw me first. They come storming in and get punched out, and Imps who wander in get the SSG, until I clear out that first area, race in, and send rockets at the big Imp cluster at the end of the room, next to a barrel. Ka-Bam! Away they go! ;D

You and cannonball might go nuts playing my way, and Tarnsman, too. I guess I cheese my way through these maps on UV to some extent, but there were still plenty of wild melees here and there. Which reminds me, I gotta do a write-up. ;)

[Moustachio]

In which I gush about MAP12:

[dew]

Playtester's War Journal, day08: Get Out of My Stations I (essel)

YouTube: the song in ~2:11 (played on v. 099j8)

Ah, the hub. The idea was born when we realized we had too many maps to fit in a single megawad and even more were cropping up. So we decided to split the thing into three megawads, except now we had three sparse wads that wouldn't reach the intermission text screens we wanted to reach... so, FILLER!

Despite some attempts by people to suggest filling the map, essel strictly wanted to keep the map completely empty, so everyone understands it's just for a breather and a bit of sight seeing. And it really looks nice. The hub actually existed before map01, it was pasted to it later, afaik (edit: as essel informs me, it was mapped around the same time map01 was, so it was more of a parallel process). Anyways, the idea caught on and the next episodes will also get hubs, except over time we actually got to a point where there's almost no space for more maps. But damn, we're not cutting away hubs, no way. They actually seem to grow bigger and more complex, heh.

Oh and I need to mention the music. I love it and it's easily my favourite of the wad, so I made a video just to get it on YouTube in its entirety. When essel made the map, I immediatelly knew what the music for it should sound like, so I made him listen to The Future Flashback theme from The Terminator and more importantly Dawn over Barrier Walls, a city theme from X-Com Apocalypse, two extremely haunting tunes accompanying images of dystopian futures. essel created a similar tune, but he shifted the mood from ominousness and desperation towards trademark BtSX melancholy. And trains. Yay!