The DWmegawad Club plays: Back to Saturn X E1 & Favillesco E1

[Tompig]

Map 07 - Metal Mothers.

Fantastic map, hardest of the lot I'd say.

Loved the use of spidermasterminds and teleporter ambushes.

Also the only map I've found that makes the partial invisibility useful.

Unique and well put together.

[j4rio]

Map 7 - played twice - UV and solo-net, pistol start, glb+

Nothing really bothered me too much, it has a fair share of wise teleporting traps / closets, but also a bunch of encounters that were more on the 'filler' side which could have been made more interesting. Without running into BFG some spiderdemons feel uninteresting, especially the lone one revealed from behind wall after picking RK, which would IMO benefit from some company, but those 3 teleported to start didn't really sell me either. I guess expecting perfectionized balance of map with heap of spiderdemons and optional BFG is asking for too much, so I'm not complaining about this one, overall I find it rather neat. Teleporting dummy rooms are quite terribly designed though, I'd add additional teleporting linedefs close to those already in place but activatable from the other side - it would get stuff out of dummy rooms more reliably.

demos - http://filesmelt.com/dl/saturnx-stuff-j4.zip

[punnyone]

Map 07 - Metal Mothers - Vader - 100% kills/items/secrets - HMP Skill

This is the best and hardest level so far. Not one, not two but 6 masterminds on HMP (and I assume more in ultra violence). Each encounter with them is in a different setting, from the -easy to dodge and find cover- north-eastern outdoor area to the central indoor room where you are constantly being sniped by one. The tag 667 secret is ingenious and clever, (I'm curious to see how its handled for E2 and E3's map 7).

The map was also very open-ended and while in the end there was still one main goal, you had multiple ways to solve it. This map's most unexpected challenge for me was the hitscanner enemies like chaingunners and seargents who often appeared out of nowhere. The texturing and dark lighting also look really good, especially in the the caves. A nice finale to cluster 1.

Also, on a side note, I assume tomorrow we're supposed to play the next TWO maps? since map 8 is just a hub.

[cannonball]

As we have completed section 1 of episode 1 of BTSX, I think I will put my thoughts on the first section.
My favourite maps were map03 and map07. I liked the quick punchy gameplay of map03 with the brilliant yellow key set piece which really gives a taste of things to come. Map07 I thought was well designed and nicely balanced.
Maps01,02 and 04 were solid enough with good visuals and decent gameplay if a little easy but I feel for the slots it's fine.
The latter part of map05 wasn't really to my liking but I will let Pavera off given his explanation for the gameplay mechanics. As they say, each to their own.
Map06 felt the weakest, it was too dumbed down with an over abundance of health, a rather corridor like design and certain traps which for me at least seemed to rather derp, this included the archvile trap where I was instantly attacked which proved advantageous to the player and the final room where the revenants were too easy to put down with little pressure from behind (I can't even remember whether there was an arch vile in the final room???)
Overall, decent start but I feel the maps are perhaps being little too lenient. It kind of feels like the mappers were going for large architecture with the maps but then realise that the original designs are too hard for early map slots and perhaps over compensated to that degree.
Either way it's been an enjoyable start, you can't really get bored with short/medium maps most of the time and will look forward to the wad cranking up through the difficulty gears ;)

[Veinen]

Map07: Metal Mothers

FDA. Solonet UV as usual, missed 1 secret (correction: I think I missed more than that :P) and a bunch of monsters. No deaths and total time was 18:37.

Great map! Features MANY Spiderdemons for a non-slaughter map and although most of them aren't even positioned very dangerously, they do make their presence felt for pistol starters at least. The very first one, for example, is an enemy you have no chance to battle against at first so running away is the only option. But as you enter the hallway at the bottom of the stairs, you see yet another Spider Mastermind waiting to put a bullet in you. For a second I felt a bit overwhelmed there and you can probably see it in the demo too as there's a short moment of hesitation at that point. Then there was this amusing spot where I take a lift down to the big open yard and wake up some Arachs and a Spiderdemon. At that point I was still very underequipped so you can probably guess my reaction. Hint: I didn't go that way.

The BFG secret was by far the deadliest encounter in the level for me. Partly because I played it stupidly but still I must give props for the great enemy placement there. Didn't pick up the BFG before running away from the Revs so I got pinned between the Revs and Arachs that teleported to the corridor, which would usually mean a quick death for me. Especially if you happen to get stuck on an Arachs line of fire like what happened now. Took a lucky pain state and an Arach walking away from me to escape. After grabbing the BFG, vengeance was mine and the SpiderQueens bit the dust one after another. Overall the combat was enjoyable in the map, it's mostly ssg action with an occasional rocket here and there and then the BFG massacrings later on in the map. The Archie residing in the cave section (near a small lift) is an another example of good enemy placement. It's very tempting to play it aggressively since playing safe means awkward RL shots and a lot of resurrected hitscanners but jumping down there would have been like a leap of faith with all the potential spots for ambushes.

Visually this map sets itself apart from the previous offerings with lots of outdoor and cavey -sections along with the techbase stuff. Really liked this variety and the more diverse texturing, I must say. I also liked the non-linear layout which can be tackled in a few different ways. The possibility of going through the outdoor areas first isn't really appealing for casual pistol starters but it's there for continuous players and speedrunners at least. So yeah, this was a fantastic map in my opinion and sufficiently challenging to boot. Pretty easily my favorite map thus far.

@cannonball and SteveD: The Archie in the final room of map06 is a solonet only -feature so regular UV-players are missing all the fun in that room ;)

Well, watching j4rios demos I realized I may sound like I'm talking out of my ass if the reader's not playing with the -solo-net parameter added. Just to clarify, all my reviews are based on my experiences when playing on the UV-solonet difficulty and they should be read with keeping that in mind. It really does seem to make a considerable difference in these later maps compared to regular UV.

[Capellan]

esselfortium said:

This post seems to begin in medias res.

It's an ARTISTIC STATEMENT, man!

Either that, or I re-ordered my comments and didn't edit the first sentence properly. :)

ETA: It's map08 and map09 today, correct?

[cannonball]

Interesting insight Veinen, I would definitely suggest having the arch vile in regular UV because the ending is rather limp to be honest. I had no bother taking out the revenants between the exit room and the monster closet they came out of. There really needs to an incentive to avoid doing what I did.

[Steve D]

Veinen said:

Map07: Metal Mothers
@cannonball and SteveD: The Archie in the final room of map06 is a solonet only -feature so regular UV-players are missing all the fun in that room ;)

Thanks for the heads-up, Veinen. I should've taken a closer look at the Archie thing in DB2. D'oh! ;D

[Tarnsman]

Map 07: Metal Mothers by A Town in Lewis County, Washington
This map has a really good layout and structure to it, as expected from a Vader map. I like the heavy use of the CONC texture set here as it helps it identify with Map 06 and stick out from the first five maps. The spider gimmick works well and there are some neat secrets in this map (the mancubi is absolutely adorable). As for the difficulty? My morning stroll through the warehouses was not interrupted.

I give this map 13 Bottle Caps out of Skype.

[ClonedPickle]

MAP07: Reached the exit at like 17:35 and went back to look for secrets and things to kill. Found some things to kill but no more secrets because I am dumb, exited with 33%. And I'm just fine with that, maybe I'll go through later and find the rest (forgot it was map07). So yeah, I love everything about this map, basically. It is so ridiculously open and having 2-3 different backpacks/SSGs/RLs/plasmas in different locations for a Choose Your Own Doom-style of play is amazing. I love that there are just so many Masterminds (and you have -quite- enough ammunition to take care of them all, which is excellent). I love the "oh? You found the BFG? Good, good, then I guess you'll be able to handle ALL OF THESE REVENANTS" and I love how you can get an arachnotron to hate another arachnotron with barrels and I love how partial invisibilities are actually useful for once an- well you get the point.

MAP08: I'm sorry, everyone. I'm sorry. I played this through with all my gear from MAP07 and completely ruined it. Please, forgive me.

[traversd]

ClonedPickle said:

MAP08: I'm sorry, everyone. I'm sorry. I played this through with all my gear from MAP07 and completely ruined it. Please, forgive me.

Sounds like someone found the secret exit in the green key area!

[Demon of the Well]

Map 07 -- Metal Mothers - 100% Kills / 100% Secrets
That hidden mancubus. Good show.

This is a very fine map, probably the best in the mapset up to this point. Whereas many folks find things like lift/rocket IoS setups to be overdone to the point of torture, that's the way I myself feel about maps in slot 07 that are just simple mancubus/arachnatron arenas, so suffice to say that the fact that this is not one of those is not a problem for me. The grounds are crawling with 'trons, sure, but it's the bigger spiders (and clusters of revenants, oddly) that you've got to worry about.

Or that's the idea, anyway. Much like map 01, the vast majority of the action here appears to be optional--the blue key can be gotten easily in just a few seconds from map start if you know where it is; it allows access to the red key after a brief battle in an upstairs annex, and the exit is only a few seconds away from the red key. It's much more fun to explore and clean out the infestation, however. As far as balancing a nonlinear map like this goes, this one makes sure that you'll have an SSG, a plasma rifle, and maybe a rocket launcher in fairly short order, no matter which direction you end up heading in from the start. These are all you'll need, though there's a BFG available for the curious which trivializes most of the titular matriarchs. This weapon/ammo placement encourages one to try different routes on replays of the map, as opposed to some non-linear maps which have an obviously ideal path and obviously inoptimal alternatives; the downside to this is that, if you explore the whole thing, you naturally tend to end up grotesquely overarmed before too long.

It doesn't really matter, though, because there's always some pitched bloodletting to be done to keep things moving, whether it's vs. arachnid horrors around the perimeter, vs. squads of revenants in towers and on overlooks that act as a pressuring force, vs. the surprisingly large horde of zombies spread out through the tunnels in the lower levels, or vs. any number of other things. It's not really a difficult map at all, but it does need to be taken at least somewhat seriously, and at no point does it shy away from keeping you on your toes. I think that this is why this map is satisfying in an extra way that some of the other maps thus far are not--it's true that it's really not any more difficult to clear overall than the last few maps, but the fundamental difference between it and them is that it doesn't have any segment that feels like it was actively neutered in order to make it more neatly fit the target difficulty level/curve. You could say that while it doesn't throw many knockout punches for an experienced player, it doesn't ever seem like it's consciously pulling its punches, either. Contrary to what some of my comments in the various DWMC threads might suggest, I don't actually require ball-breaking difficulty in order to greatly enjoy a map; this one is consistently violent, varied, and fast-paced regardless of its relatively low challenge level, and like all of the other BTSX maps takes place in an aesthetically pleasing setting (I too appreciate the extra emphasis on the rocky terrain surrounding the compound), and so I'm quite happy with it.

Oh, yeah, bonus points for demonstrating that the blur sphere can, in fact, be a genuinely useful artifact when placed in the right sort of situation.

[dobu gabu maru]

Reminder: We're playing both MAP08 and MAP09 on August 8th.

MAP07: The first episode of the... first episode ends on a satisfying note. This particular theme shifts from the standard (or simple nyuk nyuk) formula of mancs & arachs, to merely focusing on the spider monstrosities themselves, housing a whopping seven masterminds on UV (unless I missed one). The music is very suitable for this nonlinear journey as you scour around trying to determine what you can pick up without waking up a shit-ton of angry abominations, being pushed from multiple sides at once. I really like how the arachnatrons are used here and in conjunction with perched hitscanners— they can be a fierce combo.

Only major complain is that I felt there were actually too many hitscanners overall, since I had to use more cover than I ideally wanted to in order to survive. There were a handful of moments where I would ride a lift or descend some stairs just to meet a bit to many, forcing me back. Other than that I quite enjoyed it, and found the tri-master finale an interesting puzzle to work around (since you needed them to infight without wiping you out).

[Crusader No Regret]

Map 5: did not finish, 2 deaths
There's 3 bullet clips stacked on top of each other early on (before the first staircase). The map has a case of unavoidable armor bonus too.
I had this idea of using the cyber to off the revenants. The execution went horribly and revenant missiles splattered me, not the cyber.

Map 6: did not finish, 4 deaths
Difficulty spikes here. Died in the area the first lift leads to every time and my attention span gave out. It's my own fault for trying to dance around unwanted items; doing this artificially inflates the difficulty.

[Tristan]

I haven't forgotten about this, I'll try and catch up later.

[Moustachio]

MAP07 and MAP08:

[cannonball]

MAP08 - Episode Hub by Esselfortium
Redefines the meaning of awesome, this is not a hubmap, it's an M&S hubmap

MAP09 - “Some Drilling Implied” by Esselfortium/Traversd
Eh did not like this map at all. Mix of frustration and bordeom as I chew through lots of mid tier monsters with the boomstick/chaingun combo. Noticed the ssg which would have been handy but there was a bar between me and the "make level better gun".
It's tight and clean and loops around nicely but the encounters were boring, 2 mancubi, 3 revenants, 2 spiders all handled with basic weapons which is easy and dull.
Sorry but this map is by far the weakest of the lot so far :/

[Tarnsman]

Matt, I think post commentary works a lot better.

[Capellan]

map08
Don't have much to say about this really. It's a subway station, and I changed platforms. :)


map09
The difficulty has clearly reset (though I found map07 easier than map06). On HNTR, this map features one rev, one manc, and one 'tron. Other than that, an HK or caco from time to time is all the threat it can muster. It's also, for some reason, got piles and piles of armor helmets. Of course, a map being easy on HNTR is "working as designed", so this is not a flaw.

As with the other maps in this series, map08 is carefully constructed to bring us back to the appropriate key doors as soon as we have the keys. BtSX is almost too helpful in this regard. I'm hoping for a level sooner or later with a bit more of a trek to reach the necessary door (with lots of new monsters to kill en route, of course). Just to mix things up a little :)

All the design and looks of the map are solid. I like that you saw the blue and yellow keys a goodly time before accessing them, and the use of lowering and raising floors to change what parts of the levels could be accessed. Something that would need a fair bit of testing for co-op though. Speaking of which, I noticed that in DB2 the player starts were not all together - 3 and 4 are separated from the others. What's the story there?

A month or two from now, I suspect I won't really remember this map - it's not as distinctive as some of the others, and it definitely lacks the memortable fights of 06 or 07, but as a "reboot" map it works fine.

[j4rio]

map 8
waste of mapslot

map 9 - played twice, UV and solo-net, glb+, pistol start

Well, to be honest, I find what cb said to be mostly correct. I didn't mind picking off revs with weaker weapons, but one arach is unnecessary and those mancs should have teleported in / reveal from some closet while impeding free movement by locking player in claustrophobic fight with them instead of being freely available to pick off from far. I liked additional avs in solo-net. I did find ssg and it made the rest of map quite fun, but deliberately not picking it on solo-net changed encounters towards boring rather than challenging. I didn't mind this map tbh, it was quite allright for me, because unlike map 6 it does allow player to rush without being too punishing. Unrelated - I find weapons in secret to be kind of double-edged sword. If used properly, it can add a lot to map, on the other hand bad use of it can make map much worse. Giving off ssg on more obvious spot would imo benefit map. I think the same about BFG in map 7.

http://filesmelt.com/dl/saturnx-stuff-j41.zip

[dew]

Capellan said:

Speaking of which, I noticed that in DB2 the player starts were not all together - 3 and 4 are separated from the others. What's the story there?

essel and trav let me do the coop placement and i couldn't fit the additional starts into the first room, at least not without some of them facing chainers and a manco immediatelly. it's a bit less romantic than going for memento mori-style separated starts by design, sorry. :)

j4rio said:

those mancs should have teleported in / reveal from some closet while impeding free movement by locking player in claustrophobic fight with them

this is a solid idea. i always try to get the guys to infight something, but that rarely happens. i'd say "locking or surprising into jumping back down", heh.

[Steve D]

Map07 (Continuous) – Metal Mothers by Vader – Kills – 91, Items – 98, Secret – 16. Time 39:46. End Health 100, Armor 130. Death Count – 4

I’ll join the chorus of hosannas here, this is a fantastic map. The only reason I didn’t also do a pistol start is because it’s huge, I’m a slow player, and I didn’t have the time, but as my pitiful secret count reveals, there is replay room in this puppy.

I died right off the bat by taking the lift down, running like crazy through the first Corridor of Death, and when I stopped to fight some little scumbags, I was pelted from behind by an Arachnotron. I made a mental note to fight the Arachnotron first the next time, but instead I went into the open area, which proved really easy for a continuous player, and before I knew it, I was presented with the first of many SpiderQueens, along with a tower full of Revvies, both easily disposed of thanks my vast collection of rockets and the BFG I acquired in Map03. I don’t have a lot of practice at fighting SpiderQueens, so I didn’t feel bad about using the BFG for a job I normally accomplish, tediously, with SSG.

I was killed twice more by the next SpiderQueen, which teleports in when you get the Plasma Gun, but these were only Dumbass Deaths because I got the bright idea that circling her to encourage infighting with the Chaingunners and Revvies would be super-cool fun. Didn’t work out so well, so I dusted her off with the BFG and used rockets against the rest. Those Chaingunners were especially dangerous, since they were high and distant, exactly the kinda thing people complained about in my maps – heh! – only here it was even worse because they had you in a crossfire and were backed by 2 Revvies!

Going into the building they guarded led to several good battles against hitscanners. Chaingunners wore me out on this map, which is something I really enjoy, and the Arachnotrons were a constant danger, not to mention occasional gangs of Revvies and the odd well-placed Sergeant or two. With a nice mix of structural challenges and teleport traps, this map kept me on my toes even after I’d killed over 70% of the critters. I never knew where the next attack would come from, so I stayed nervous, which kept me alert.

The only SpiderQueen who didn’t get killed by BFG was the one guarding the blue and red keys. I suffered another Dumbass Death here -- an Arachnotron got me while I dodged around after killing Queenie with rockets and SSG. The next time, I had already unloaded rockets from the blue key platform until I was down to 30, and as I was heading below to finish her off with SSG, she shot at me, hit an Arachnotron, and the angry spiderbaby took her out. “Fuck you, mom!” ;D

The final battle against 3 SpiderQueens was surprisingly easy. I killed the nearest one, then the 2 behind went at it, and luckily for me, the one on my plane died. Killing the survivor was easy work after that. I hoped that going through the red door would lead to the BFG secret, but instead it was the exit. I also heard the Manc that others talked about, but never saw it.

As others have said, this map is gorgeous. Very Quake2ish in its “base built into the rocks” theme, and exceptionally well executed. The cave/alcove where you snag a PG just before a SpiderQueen teleports in is a choice piece of work and exemplifies the excellence of small details found throughout this mapset. The layout was fun and flowing and nonlinear, and Jimmy’s peppy music track is outstanding as well. Great map!

[Jayextee]

Are we supposed to pistol-start the new hub/episode? I'm confused.

[cannonball]

Jayextee said:

Are we supposed to pistol-start the new hub/episode? I'm confused.

Do whatever you feel comfortable with. Like deciding whether to wear speedos or a mankini on the beach :P

[Jayextee]

I'll just have a paper bag over the critical parts, and let my fuzzy man-hair free with the rest.

Continuous it is.

[NuMetalManiak]

MAP08 Get Out of my Stations I

A simple intermission level done Batman-Doom style where the place to go is shown on a monitor. Final Time 0:08.

MAP09 Some Drilling Implied

I like short levels :).

But this one is really nothing to talk about except for maybe secrets. Got bored with this, or maybe I'm just being daffy? Either way, sorry no good. Final Time 4:10.

[mouldy]

Since map 8 is a hub room I'll move straight on to map 9 (i did play it though, honest)

MAP09 - “Some Drilling Implied” by Esselfortium/Traversd

This is another map I had no memory of. Its a perfectly decent map, there are some great fights and placement of enemies to make things awkward, far off rev snipers, shotgunners round blind corners, attacks from high and low. Again the map is very interconnected whilst leading you on a specific route via locked doors. I don't know if I missed the SSG on the way, but I ended up doing most of it with shotgun/chaingun. Not a massive problem but there were moments where a couple of rockets would have been welcome. When the launcher finally did arrive it felt like "ok you have rocket launcher, now here is a wall of hellknights to use it on", and then its the exit. Its a fine map on its own, but not very memorable in the context of this wad.

[ClonedPickle]

MAP09: A pretty fun romp. Not difficult, but it doesn't need to be, as this is definitely the start of an episode-within-an-episode (I guess "cluster" is the scientific term when it comes to BTSX). The start is nicely imposing from UV pistol start with the mid-tier monsters facing your low-tier weaponry but once things get rolling it's a grand old time as you rock out to Untilted.

God, I love Untilted.

And it's a nice feeling that I managed to get 100% secrets this time. I should really go back and do that for 07.

[Veinen]

Nothing really to say about map08 so moving straight to map09.

Map09: Some Drilling Implied

Demo. Solonet UV, everything died but missed one secret. Total time 15:52 but that includes a few minutes of secret hunting.

The demo is technically not a FDA since I died once pretty much at the start (very similarly to j4rio in his UV-demo) and I cut that part off. But beyond the first few rooms, it's unseen territory so I play accordingly.

What about the map itself then? Well, it's an obvious breather map for one. Looks fine and plays decent but like others have already said, it's not very memorable at all. Enemies are mostly small scale baddies that fall victim to the players shotgun/chaingun quickly. There is also an ssg but it's in a secret and a RL which is acquired very late in the map. I played most of the map with just the shotgun/chaingun combo since the ssg-switch was so "hard" to find but I didn't really mind at all. I think it's actually just good that the ssg isn't simply given to the player because in that case the map would become an absolute cakewalk to complete. On the other hand it would allow more aggressive playstyle but I dunno... Maybe there is a balance somewhere in between. There are indeed a couple of really well-placed Archies on the solonet UV -difficulty who spice things up a lot. First one is on the platform with some crates overlooking the nukage path leading to the ssg secret, second one is released as the yellow key platform lowers and the last one is hiding in the pillar-maze after the RL is acquired. Otherwise the combat and traps and just about everything really is pretty tame here.

Overall this map just feels so much like breather and not in a good way. Breather maps can be fun too but this was just a bit too tame and unmemorable for my tastes at this point of the wad. But the visuals were quality stuff once again so no problems in that department. That one little balcony with a door was especially intriguing, I was sure it must be a secret of some sorts judging by the looks of it.

[dew]

Playtester's War Journal, day04: A Good Flying Bird (esselfortium)

YouTube: UV SoloNet Max in 3:59 (played on v. 099j5)

This essel map started as a "speedmapped" layout in Nov 2011 and let me tell you - if you think it's easy, you should've seen version 1, haha. It took essel some time and medidation before he shifted to higher difficulty gear and this one started as a very easy map with mild opposition and an obscene amount of shells. I think there might have been twice as much hitscan ammo than in the version you played - and we already cut out some more, haha. Conversely, opposition has been growing throughout revisions, which is a trend for most of the maps intended for early slots created before 2012. And since you guys whined about the map being too easy, that too has been addressed already, heh. In retrospect it seems the original difficulty curve started lower, but with growing ambitions it was decided that no map would be left behind.

First moments are a bit lukewarm, especially if one's hell bent on taking down the ledge mancos without really having to. Don't do it. Then it's the main area already and it's a pretty sweet set piece, it just needed proper challenge. I'm playing the updated version with a bigger caco horde and some improved monster positioning to inconvenience the player more and it seems to work - actually, with my crazy rush on solonet that place kicked my ass for over an hour before I got a nice smooth demo out of it. Previously I'd use the coop cyber to take out as many monsters for me as possible, but that plan's scrapped now and the caco invasion has to be dealt with by hand.

The BK/staircase area stays the same, afaik. It's a pretty messy fight on solonet and not keeping a bit of plasma ammo can mean a lot of trouble between the two barons. The staircase itself isn't very threatening, but it's pretty. :) I like the arcadey music. Very retro.