Map01

[fabian]

Jon said:

I agree completely here. I'd sacrifice all existing resources, not just maps (which is to say: I'd critically evaluate all resources against the consistent vision, should there be one)

Who dares to ask the ten authors of D2TWID if they donate their maps?

[Catoptromancy]

MAP01 and E1M1 are the same. I think a remake of MAP01 would be an awesome idea for the doom2 target and can tie together the story. Both iwads start on same map, but map is ruined by invasion in doom2 version. Player starts should be in different area, there is a landing pad already in map.

[RjY]

wesleyjohnson's map01 edit, re-uploaded by Springy:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/b775bwt7pkztb9p/johnson_map01_04.zip

I've just played this. It's not that bad.

I don't like the passage up to the tower, it's long, narrow, cramped, and more or less flat. I generally dislike long 64-wide passages, they make maps feel like lab rat mazes.

I don't really see the point of making the tower accessible at all. I always thought the two sergeants, err, shotgunners at the top of the tower were meant to be a nasty trap for the unwary. I've died up there several times, having lost too much health in the room below, and then not reacting quickly enough at the top of the lift. I thought that was deliberate.

In general I don't care for the more exotic Boom features, like deep water, conveyors, friction and so forth, in my experience they often harm gameplay more than they enhance it. Trying to be excessively "realistic" in Doom is harmful.

On the other hand map01 is so short that it doesn't matter, and people might have fun playing with the nukage level, I don't know. I would probably leave the fence gaps completely open rather than lowering their middle textures, as it ends up looking like a texture height alignment error.

Finally I think exit signs should be reserved for actual map exits. They're not just decoration, they're more like the key-coloured doorstops, they have a conventional meaning in gameplay.

[wesleyjohnson]

I have a Map01 wad, with the Exit sign on central court door now just a broken sign. I had been hoping for more inspiration.

I note what has been said, but they are not very convincing compared to the arguments that I made as to why I was trying to change these things in the first place.

Why have access to the far room at all? Because some of us were wasting our time trying to find the hidden passage to it.

The passage to the far room is long and narrow. That is because it is far and minimalist. I did not want to waste resources on something that was marginal to the play of this level. It provides the access path for those who feel the need to get there. For those of you where going there does not fit in your gameplay, why is it you cannot just ignore the path? I cannot make it fit perfectly with everybody's style of gameplay. I found the omission of the path more of a problem.

It only takes 6 seconds to get down there, out of a play time of 120 seconds or so, if you are rushing through the map. Compare that to the side trips on some of the other maps and I think it is hardly noticeable in comparison.

I note that some people dislike the Boom features. This is a problem considering that the wad allows Boom features.
What would be the advantage of just having map01 being Boom free.
You could play map01 on Chocolate Doom and the like ??

One disadvantage would be that it would fool some players that tried it with a non-Boom port, and only discovered later that they cannot play the wad through.
I would prefer they know the port requirements on the first map, and get a taste of what Boom provides. Then they can decide if they want to play the wad, get a Boom port to play it, swear at it, or what.

What actually happens when it is played on a non-Boom port, you get an empty pit, and the buttons do not do anything ??

I have considered taking out the Deep water but that just leaves an empty pit. It does not save on size or many resources either.

[fraggle]

wesleyjohnson said:

I note that some people dislike the Boom features. This is a problem considering that the wad allows Boom features.
What would be the advantage of just having map01 being Boom free.
You could play map01 on Chocolate Doom and the like ??

You misunderstood what RjY said. There's nothing wrong with using Boom features in Freedoom levels: as you point out, Freedoom targets Boom-compatible source ports. What he's saying is that using them excessively detracts from the gameplay. It's a question of gameplay, not Boom/Vanilla compatibility.

What actually happens when it is played on a non-Boom port, you get an empty pit, and the buttons do not do anything ??

It won't work in a non-Boom compatible port: the deep water colormaps used as textures will mean that the game will crash when the level is loaded. (but as Freedoom targets Boom, this isn't a bug)

For my part, my position on this change remains the same as it was a few months ago: it makes the level more complicated, when it's already more complicated than it ought to be. It's a change that goes in the wrong direction.

I'm tempted to make my own modified version of the current MAP01 that goes more in the direction of how I think the level ought to be (ie. a simplified version). But I don't want to tread on your toes.

[wesleyjohnson]

These feel to me to be weak arguments. It feels like there is another unmentioned issue.

Complicated Gameplay ? , not complicated at all compared to most levels in FreeDoom. The far building can be skipped, the pit level control buttons can be skipped, the pump room can be skipped. Any player skipping these would not even notice anything missing. The only side trip is up the lift to get the armor, and that was not my doing.

Simplify ??
1. Remove the far building entirely. Kind of drastic.
Most levels have side trips that are far, far, far longer.

2.Drastic editing here (like using a transporter instead) just to avoid the 6 second trip down the long corridor just feels like spite.
I cannot see the how the instant gratification of using a transporter instead becomes a gameplay enhancer. It degrades my gameplay experience as I have explained before.

3. Remove the pit of nukage and replace it with something dry.
Don't know why every other level has to be swimming with nukage so it could be sacrificed. The nukage is a major element of this level design, but I think the pit could be eliminated. I felt that was more drastic than I was willing to promote on the first edit.

[fraggle]

wesleyjohnson said:

These feel to me to be weak arguments. It feels like there is another unmentioned issue.

Complicated Gameplay ? , not complicated at all compared to most levels in FreeDoom.

Then you're making the wrong comparison. This is the first level of the game, and for that reason it should be simpler and easier than any of the other levels.

First impressions matter a lot. Gameplay matters. MAP01 as it stands at the moment looks very nice but the gameplay kind of sucks as an introductory level.

Simplify ??
1. Remove the far building entirely. Kind of drastic.
Most levels have side trips that are far, far, far longer.

2.Drastic editing here (like using a transporter instead) just to avoid the 6 second trip down the long corridor just feels like spite.
I cannot see the how the instant gratification of using a transporter instead becomes a gameplay enhancer. It degrades my gameplay experience as I have explained before.

I'm not particularly bothered about the corridor, and the far building could be removed as far as I care. What I do care about is what the process of getting through the level is like.

Here's what the sequence for completing the level currently looks like:

• Fight off some monsters that are attacking you as soon as the game starts.
  
• Find a door that won't open; search for the switch nearby and press it to open it.
  
• Fight some more monsters at close range.
  
• Get to the slime pit section. Either go through the door and down the stairs, or jump into the slime and go down the pipe.
  
• Fight some more monsters and find the switch.
  
• Go back up the stairs and across the slime pit. Fight some more monsters.
  
• Hit the exit switch.
  

Your new version complicates this process even more: there's a key hunt and a bunch more buttons you have to press.

I contend that instead, the level would make a much better introductory level if half of those steps were eliminated. It should be possible to (mostly) run through the level, fighting a few monsters along the way. No buttons to press, no keys to find; a few monsters to fight along the way but none ambushing you at point blank as you come through a doorway. And it should be possible to get across the slime pit without taking damage.

3. Remove the pit of nukage and replace it with something dry.
Don't know why every other level has to be swimming with nukage so it could be sacrificed. The nukage is a major element of this level design, but I think the pit could be eliminated. I felt that was more drastic than I was willing to promote on the first edit.

I don't think that will be an improvement; the nukage is an important part of the level, and having it as a hazard to cross is useful for teaching the player the basics of the game. But deep water is not appropriate; I'd rather just ditch the whole "raising and lowering water level" aspect of the level.

[wesleyjohnson]

I do not remember any key in the latest Map01. (one version had a key that was only used to open an optional door, it was taken out again)

The only button I added was the one to lower the nukage, and that was because there already was one to raise the nukage and I did not want to rip it out. The button to raise used to be required to solve the level but in my version neither is required, and it does not slow the player at all if they are not pushed at all. It also does nothing bad if the player just pushes them both and runs on.

How are you seeing these as issues of gameplay. My version simplified the gameplay to the point that the only thing remaining is discovering that switch to open the first door. The player is virtually led to the exit switch by signs. My version also removed that sneaky secret switch on the back side of the exit button, that was so hard to find.

I already moved some of the shotgun guys to make it easier coming out of that door. The original version was much worse. I would have moved them farther, but I heard no complaints about that in the original version.

I really cannot see what you are comparing gameplay and complexity to.
DoomII Map01 is far more complicated, has more buttons, more backtracking, more secrets, more sneak attacks by monsters, and more puzzles to solve.

[fabian]

fraggle said:

I'm tempted to make my own modified version of the current MAP01 that goes more in the direction of how I think the level ought to be (ie. a simplified version). But I don't want to tread on your toes.

Please do so (the former, that is, please leave his toes intact), so we all can compare your efforts. :)

[Z0k]

hehe i also interested to see how fraggle would do map01 before i do it after finishing a map i have in works to donate again ;).

also i agree that the game well yeah map01 should be kinda simplistic but also need to show the "mechanics" on how the game works. its kinda obvious that us as old doomers know everything from doom and how things works. how would be the things at this day if we played doom for the first time? thats why also i believe that map01 also being simplistic should show also some of the basic mechanics of the game.

i think that map01 should be in some way as doom2 map01, you can exit anytime, i mean just look map01 you dont need to do something to exit, just reach the exit door and its done. but if you want you can explore the map and find some of the basic mechanic of the game that you would find in later levels of the game.

in that way i feel how map01 should be: you can exit anytime, but you will find some stuff to do to learn how the game works.

[wesleyjohnson]

I have an update to the Map01 that I last submitted. This is the version with the Boom deep water, and the tunnel to the distant room. Unless you have some plans to actually use it, I am not going to submit the latest version. The reason for that should be obvious. Mostly, it is some details, like changing one of the exit signs to a broken exit sign with only a red face.

[fraggle]

Merging your post into this thread so that the discussion stays centralized.

I don't think anything has changed - there were objections to your changes and we haven't reached a consensus about them.

I'm not sure what you mean by a broken exit sign.

[wesleyjohnson]

I saw there were 41 replies and thought "what the #* %^ @xxx".

Previous submission got some comments, one of which was that the EXIT sign was traditionally used for the Level Exit. Using it for an actual emergency exit was deemed confusing, so I broke the 2nd exit sign.

When I refer to some people not caring for Boom features, it is not about what RjY said. It is about how one Boom Deep water pit has been deemed excessive. That only leaves no Boom Deep water effects as a possibility, which just about summarizes the whole discussion.