Why I prefer Ultimate Doom WADs

[Melon]

Piper Maru said:

How are you guys taking down Cyberdemons with 2 BFG shots anyways? Tips and advice is appreciated!

In addition to Grazza's post above I also wrote a Steam guide that talks about how it works, with the advantage of having pretty pictures. And by "pretty" I mean "horrible MSPaint garbage".

[Lightning Hunter]

Here are a few youtube videos of myself vs. Cyberdemons and Revenents. The first video is of myself two-shotting nearly 20 cyberdemons in under 3 minutes before I die. It took about 8-9 tries. There were only maybe 2 Cyberdemons that took more than two shots. The only cheat I used is IDKFA so I didn't have to find cells. I kill Cyberdemons with 2-3 shots quite often in WADs that I play, but not usually this carelessly. I guess this was more of a speed run. Heh.

Two-Shotting almost 20 Cyberdemons in under 3 minutes: http://youtu.be/7nAeHD-iOqk

The other video is of me taking out 30 Revenents in an open space with the SSG, and showing how to dodge their projectiles with no cover at the end of the video(would also work in a tight hallway if you do it right). Once again, I used IDKFA. This video only took one try. My point in this thread was not that I CAN'T do it. My point was that it's boring. Revenents in AV are often in windows in groups of 15 or so, and ducking/covering is the easiest way to kill them. Obviously, open areas with enough space to run doesn't require any ducking or covering, as seen in my video. Btw, I often play UD WADs and Doom2 WADs with my own difficulty mods with Risen3d that increase the health of the monsters, speed of the fireballs, and decreases the ammo you receive by 1/2. I play through just about every WAD with these mods, including AV. I guess I just prefer the atmosphere and theme of UD, rather than the slaughter-fests commonly found in Doom2. For the sake of these videos, I had no mods enabled except 3d models and visual stuff.

Killing 30 Revenents: http://youtu.be/1TMaDXExsuc

Anyway, I think I'll leave this childish debate behind since everyone wants to discuss how I play Doom rather than compare UD WADs to Doom2 WADs. Enjoy the thread all to yourselves, you derailers.

[Grazza]

What discussion got "derailed" here? You expressed an "opinion" and made it clear that even though you posted it in a discussion context (this is a forum, not a personal blog), you regarded there as being nothing to discuss. It was a case of "this is mah opinion and aam entitled to it". Which is a rather pointless position to take in any context.

[Lightning Hunter]

Grazza said:

What discussion got "derailed" here? You expressed an "opinion" and made it clear that even though you posted it in a discussion context (this is a forum, not a personal blog), you regarded there as being nothing to discuss. It was a case of "this is mah opinion and aam entitled to it". Which is a rather pointless position to take in any context.

I was hoping for peple to discuss whether or not they like UD WADs or Doom2 WADs, and for what reasons (not to argue with each other about which one is better, but to post their own opinion). People were doing this on page one. Then on page two, the topic turned in to a Lightning Hunter bash fest and how I play Doom (which I think I've proved isn't noobish with my videos above). I would say that's pretty freakin' derailed.

I'm wondering if any of the people who were criticizing me can even make better videos of themselves two-shotting cyberdemons.

[TimeOfDeath]

Post demos.

[j4rio]

Reasons for preference of Doom2 - SSG, new monsters
Reasons for preference of UD - none, lol

[Lightning Hunter]

You mean Doom format Demos? I've never done it before. I used bandicam to record this one... I would have to do it again in order to record a demo. I'll look in to it if you really want me to. Why do you want a demo?

[Melon]

If we are all giving opinions then here is mine: I think something that comes out quite well in the Ultimate Doom is that it's possible to make interesting and difficult encounters with a very small number of monsters if the player's arsenal is very limited. A single baron may have a simple attack pattern but if you've only got a few shells, a chainsaw and no armour then he can still be threatening. Being bad at the game like I am probably helps.

Of course, as Doom 2 is just Ultimate Doom with more stuff this still applies, it's just the episodic format of Ultimate Doom makes you more likely to experience it. Two of my best ever Doom moments were doing MAP08 and MAP16 from Doom2 from a pistol start because a lot of the map was spent in severely disadvantaged situations where even a single pain elemental or arch-vile or mancubus was a force to be reckoned with (MAP16 only being the case because I didn't know about the SSG secret, which totally ruins the map IMO). Running around MAP16 with only a chaingun and 40 bullets to my name and an arch-vile hot on my heels and big nasties guarding all the other weapons was my most exhilarating Doom moment of all time.

I think deep down what I want most is Ultimate Doom style levels with a small presence of Doom 2 monsters, that is, Doom 1 gameplay except instead of only having cacos and barons to fill the tough monster niche you could use a Doom 2 monster instead, but only when the encounter would really make the most of their particular mechanics.

Also I really like the rhythm of the regular shotgun and wish more Doom 2 levels would take better advantage of it. Sure, it's tedious to kill 10 cacos at once with only the regular shotgun, so you just not have to make the player not go up against so many at once :) The SSG has some nice risk/reward stuff going on but it also makes almost all encounters vs a single monster easy as hell when you've got one, so you're sort of forced to put the player against much larger numbers in order to end up with any sort of meaningful encounter. A shame that shells always end up as the "default" ammo in this case, I'd rather mappers focussed more on bullets as the backup when you've got the SSG.

[Alfonzo]

I guess one could talk about how designing levels for a certain IWAD can redirect a philosophy to better mimic the stock representatives (which is very common for Doom E1 and Plutonia, for example, but oddly never the case for Doom 2), but once you recognise that the only significant difference between the first and second games is in the texture selection and episode structure -- admittedly a better setup, I think -- it becomes difficult to decry anything other than the level designer's ability when commenting on things you don't like. Or, otherwise, his decision to adhere to what almost everyone considers a base for better gameplay. None of the tools have been taken away, remember; it's the same tool belt extended, featuring toys that nobody has been made to use. You could just as a well create a Doom 1 level set for Doom 2 baring a couple of differences and nobody would bat an eye.

Xaser has already summed this up well in short form, I think.

Xaser said:

The biggest tangible advantages Doom the First has over its sequel are the 9-map episode format and SKINTEK. Everything else boils down to differences in mapping convention, which can be purposely bucked if desired. Though I suppose there's plenty to be said about D1's limitations breeding creativity, perhaps.

There really isn't much else to be said.

Of course, if your major concern is with the lack of WADS adhering to the kind of gameplay promoted by Doom 1 instead of that promoted by Doom 2's new material (not, I repeat from the top, Doom 2 itself), then it only remains to be said again that Doom 2 has the capacity for more scenarios than Doom 1 and thus remains the superior option. Objectively. Can you blame anyone for making this decision?

[plums]

plums said:

I'm assuming you're talking about the way wads usually have been made as opposed to things that are inherent in making a wad for UD or D2, and if so, I agree with you, to an extent. (I think you should emphasize this point, or you can expect a lot of posts talking about how Doom 2 levels don't need to use harder monsters or SSGs or whatever.)

I guess it's valid to discuss what can and can't be done with Doom 2 vs Doom but I do think it is also worth talking about content that exists currently.

[Da Werecat]

wesleyjohnson said:

It did introduce more weapons but then goes so quickly to baron shootouts that it is still only a few kinds of weapons that are reasonable to use.

wesleyjohnson said:

It did introduce more weapons but then goes so quickly to baron/caco/revenant shootouts that it is still only a few kinds of weapons that are reasonable to use.

This is a very strange edit. Because it's not the same.

New monsters were introduced in Doom 2 mostly for one important reason: to make mid-tier/high-tier fights more varied and strategic. In Doom 1, most of the fights were of two categories:

1. Shooting at cannon fodder.
2. Shooting at bullet sponges that are equally easy to avoid.

Doom 2 changed that so that monsters have anything other to threaten the player than high HP or attack strenght. It's not just bigger baddies. In fact, there are still very few monsters that can compete with baron in sheer durability.

[Lightning Hunter]

I couldn't figure out how to record a demo using Risen3d, so I installed Zdoom for the first time in years. It took a while to get used to the slight differences in sensitivity with the controls in Zdoom vs. Risen3d, but after about 7 tries, I warmed up a bit. I got a demo killing about 17 Cyberdemons in under 3 minutes. The first 4 or so Cyberdemons took 3 shots - but once I warmed up, I two-shotted the rest of them. I'll upload a much better demo later, when I've gotten used to Zdoom again.

Download the demo for Zdoom in a zip file here:
http://filebeam.com/0bd8befc9cc3557c6299caeeed850d26

You need Tom19.wad to play the demo:
http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/?id=15880

[40oz]

Jesus this thread went sour pretty quick.

I don't think Lightning Hunter has said anything that merited how much he (or his opinion, really) is being berated right now.

His opinion is just as valid as anyone else's and any disagreements are mostly because of differences in playstyle, preference, and skillset. There's no scientific fact or real hard evidence to determine whether one is better than the other, so just let each other have their own fun.

What he finds fun is different than what I or many people posting in this thread finds fun, but this isn't the first time I've seen someone adamant about his opinion get ganged up on by a bunch of people dissecting his posts and criticizing his every sentence for the slightest hair-splitting fallacies. It's all really childish.

Someone had to say it.

[Lightning Hunter]

40oz said:

Jesus this thread went sour pretty quick.

I don't think Lightning Hunter has said anything that merited how much he (or his opinion, really) is being berated right now.

His opinion is just as valid as anyone else's and any disagreements are mostly because of differences in playstyle, preference, and skillset. There's no scientific fact or real hard evidence to determine whether one is better than the other, so just let each other have their own fun.

What he finds fun is different than what I or many people posting in this thread finds fun, but this isn't the first time I've seen someone adamant about his opinion get ganged up on by a bunch of people dissecting his posts and criticizing his every sentence for the slightest hair-splitting fallacies. It's all really childish.

Someone had to say it.

Thanks 40oz, I appreciate it. I'm glad more people are discussing the topic. :)

On the other hand, I sort of had fun making the youtube video and demo. I now believe that I CAN consistently kill Cyberdemons in Two shots. I never tried on this many Cyberdemons before, but it's proving to be rather easy. My youtube video and demo should prove that. It didn't take as many tries a I thought to succeed in two-shotting nearly 20 cyberdemons. Time to increase that number and release of a demo of about 50 Cyberdemons killed in two shots! :)

[plums]

40oz said:

I don't think Lightning Hunter has said anything that merited how much he (or his opinion, really) is being berated right now.

I agree, buuuuut, a lot of his responses aren't really doing anything to de-escalate the antagonsim from other people. Maybe that's an unfair criticism.

OK Lightning Hunter, what are some of your favourite UD levels or episodes that I should check out? I know you've named a few throughout this thread but I don't want to sift through those embers ;P

[Lightning Hunter]

plums said:

I agree, buuuuut, a lot of his responses aren't really doing anything to de-escalate the antagonsim from other people. Maybe that's an unfair criticism.

OK Lightning Hunter, what are some of your favourite UD levels or episodes that I should check out? I know you've named a few throughout this thread but I don't want to sift through those embers ;P

I agree that I said a few things that should not have been said to escalate things, but I did feel like it was the forum regulars vs. me... I apologize if I sounded like a Troll ever.

Anyway, Check out Death Tormention 3, Par-Lutz (Phobos Anomaly Reborn), Inferno (the episode by Christopher Lutz), Base Ganymede complete, and 2002ad10. You may find them boring if you enjoy the run-and-gun style of AV, but I personally find these maps to be atmospheric and enjoyable. Try using some PSX music tracks with Risen3d, and some difficulty mods to make them harder, if you prefer a challenge. I can provide you with some difficulty mods to make them harder if you want. I usually enable mods that give me less ammo, more health for the monsters, and more damage dealt by the monsters' weapons.

Did anyone look at my demo or Youtube video? I'm curious what people think now. :P

[esselfortium]

Lightning Hunter said:

I can provide you with some difficulty mods to make them harder if you want. I usually enable mods that give me less ammo, more health for the monsters, and more damage dealt by the monsters' weapons.

Doesn't that sort of lend itself to the same kind of duck-and-cover gameplay you said you disliked, though, when describing revenants earlier?

BTW, ZDoom's tracer behavior is different enough than Doom's original behavior that some folks may or may not consider your video to demonstrate much. Just so you're aware :P

[Lightning Hunter]

esselfortium said:

Doesn't that sort of lend itself to the same kind of duck-and-cover gameplay you said you disliked, though, when describing revenants earlier?

[/b]

No, I barely increased the speed of fireballs, or even the health of Imps. one extremely well placed shotgun blast can still kill them, but it has to be a precise blast (they have 75 health as opposed to the default of 60). Fireballs aren't THAT much faster. And they aren't homing. I enjoy ammo conservation more than anything else. I hate having more than 20 shotgun shells or 100 clips in stock at one time.

It's just not my style to be running and gunning against hordes of upper-tiered monsters. I think one big reason I don't like hordes of upper-tiered monsters is the amount of time it takes to kill them, even with the BFG. Doom2 WADs like AV tend to place hordes of monsters in one big open room that you have to spend nearly 5 minutes in before you can move on. I enjoy navigating at a steady pace from one detailed hell-themed room to the next, and UD WADs have much more of that. Of course, I know that I don't always have to kill everything to progress, but I hate skipping things. I enjoy the sense of completeness to see the 100% stat at the end of the level.

BTW, ZDoom's tracer behavior is different enough than Doom's original behavior that some folks may or may not consider your video to demonstrate much. Just so you're aware :P

I didn't use Zdoom for the youtube video of the Revenents. I used Risen3d. Zdoom was only used for the Cyberdemon demo a few posts above. But yeah, I wouldn't care anyway. :P

[Job]

It always pissed me off that Doom 2 didn't have a lot of the really good tech base textures that Ultimate Doom did. Space limitations don't even serve as a good excuse for that.

[vdgg]

Lightning Hunter said:

I couldn't figure out how to record a demo using Risen3d, so I installed Zdoom for the first time in years. It took a while to get used to the slight differences in sensitivity with the controls in Zdoom vs. Risen3d, but after about 7 tries, I warmed up a bit. I got a demo killing about 17 Cyberdemons in under 3 minutes. The first 4 or so Cyberdemons took 3 shots - but once I warmed up, I two-shotted the rest of them. I'll upload a much better demo later, when I've gotten used to Zdoom again.

Thanks very much for your effort. However, you need to specify the version you used. I got the message "Demo was recorded using a different version of ZDoom" right at the start with 2.7.1 and 2.5.0 and don't expect me to download 20 different versions to try to watch your demo...

[plums]

Lightning Hunter said:

Anyway, Check out Death Tormention 3, Par-Lutz (Phobos Anomaly Reborn), Inferno (the episode by Christopher Lutz), Base Ganymede complete, and 2002ad10. You may find them boring if you enjoy the run-and-gun style of AV, but I personally find these maps to be atmospheric and enjoyable. Try using some PSX music tracks with Risen3d, and some difficulty mods to make them harder, if you prefer a challenge. I can provide you with some difficulty mods to make them harder if you want. I usually enable mods that give me less ammo, more health for the monsters, and more damage dealt by the monsters' weapons.

Did anyone look at my demo or Youtube video? I'm curious what people think now. :P

Cool, I'll check these out sometime. I don't mind easier levels once in a while, if it's too easy I just play with -fast.

Your cyberdemon video was good. The revenant video was basically circle-strafing the whole time, not too hard. Much harder to beat a horde of revenants in a long, nearly-straight hallway. (Though personally I don't think you have to prove yourself :p)

[TimeOfDeath]

I wasn't necessarily attacking your skill, it just bugged me when you said bfg was easy to use. It's cool that you made the demos and had fun doing them. But if it takes several tries to get warmed up and missed some two-shotting in zdoom, yet you think it's rather easy, maybe you're just a masochist and should try some gggmork maps. :)

As for the topic, I usually prefer doom2 maps because of the new awesome monsters and the ssg.

[Cynical]

Lightning Hunter said:

I agree that I said a few things that should not have been said to escalate things, but I did feel like it was the forum regulars vs. me... I apologize if I sounded like a Troll ever.

Anyway, Check out Death Tormention 3, Par-Lutz (Phobos Anomaly Reborn), Inferno (the episode by Christopher Lutz), Base Ganymede complete, and 2002ad10. You may find them boring if you enjoy the run-and-gun style of AV, but I personally find these maps to be atmospheric and enjoyable. Try using some PSX music tracks with Risen3d, and some difficulty mods to make them harder, if you prefer a challenge. I can provide you with some difficulty mods to make them harder if you want. I usually enable mods that give me less ammo, more health for the monsters, and more damage dealt by the monsters' weapons.

Did anyone look at my demo or Youtube video? I'm curious what people think now. :P

I've actually played the first two of that list. Par is gorgeous, but didn't offer anything to sink my teeth into; Chris Lutz's "Caverns of Darkness" is much better. Death Tormentation 3 was just bleh.

If you like atmospheric maps that are all about saving every last bullet, try Chord 3. Strategic Viles and Pain Elementals are great for that style of play ;)

Oh, and:

Revenents in AV are often in windows in groups of 15 or so

Often? It happens in just three maps (32, 18, and 26), all made by Anders Johnsen.

[Touchdown]

I really don't understand the point of this thread. There's nothing to debate here. DOOM II is better because it has more tools in the toolbox. Everything else is just a matter of how those tools are being used.

[Lightning Hunter]

TimeOfDeath said:

I wasn't necessarily attacking your skill, it just bugged me when you said bfg was easy to use. It's cool that you made the demos and had fun doing them. But if it takes several tries to get warmed up and missed some two-shotting in zdoom, yet you think it's rather easy, maybe you're just a masochist and should try some gggmork maps. :)

I only had to warm up when I installed Zdoom for the first time in a long time. It took several tries because I was trying to two-shot 20 Cyberdemons in a row, and do so in perfect fashion with fast speed to look fancy in a video. The original point was that people didn't believe I could kill them in 2-3 shots consistently, but I can, and I proved it. The only time I don't kill Cyberdemons in 2-3 BFG shots is if they are placed in a narrow hallway, and you can't get close enough. But that is rare. I also wouldn't kill them as fast and as carelessly as I did in the demos posted above if I were playing a normal game. I would take my time and keep my distance from their rockets. In the videos, I am clearly getting within inches of their rockets. I admit, I was trying to show off. :P

vdgg said:

Thanks very much for your effort. However, you need to specify the version you used. I got the message "Demo was recorded using a different version of ZDoom" right at the start with 2.7.1 and 2.5.0 and don't expect me to download 20 different versions to try to watch your demo...

Whoops, I didn't realize different versions of Zdoom would cause mismatches for demos! That certainly is a limitation if you can't view old demos in newer versions of Zdoom... Anyway, I used version 2.1.4 to record them. I think this link should work:
http://www.zdoom.org/files/zdoom/2.1/zdoom-2.1.4.zip

Touchdown said:

I really don't understand the point of this thread. There's nothing to debate here. DOOM II is better because it has more tools in the toolbox. Everything else is just a matter of how those tools are being used.

Did you even read the first post? I think all of us are clear that Doom2 has mostly the same tools as UD (with the exception of the 4 episode layout), but that is NOT the topic. The real topic is whether you prefer custom UD WADs or Doom2 WADs. I find myself preferring UD WADs for all the reasons I stated. Sometimes, fewer tools at the disposal of mappers is a good thing, and keeps them focused on making a simple experience. In Doom2, mappers often tend to complicate things, and the end result isn't as fun to me. That's my opinion, of course. Everyone enjoys different types of WADs. The question is, do you find yourself enjoying custom WADs for UD, or for Doom2? What are the reasons? This topic is once again NOT a debate about whether UD is better or Doom2 is better. It's about which game you prefer playing custom WADs for (unless you haven't even played any custom WADs for UD).

plums said:
Your cyberdemon video was good. The revenant video was basically circle-strafing the whole time, not too hard. Much harder to beat a horde of revenants in a long, nearly-straight hallway. (Though personally I don't think you have to prove yourself :p) [/B]

Thanks, plums. And yes, the Revenent video was not to impress anyone, but to simply show that I'm not some noob who doesn't know the tactics of how to kill them. It was to show how easy Revenents are to defeat. Half of the time, I was just fooling around and running away from fireballs. In fact, I was considering putting a footnote halfway through the video that said "zzzzzz". :P The real point of the video was at the very end, when I showed how to avoid their fireballs with NO cover whatsoever. I'm pretty sure only Doom veterans can pull off that move.

[Doominator2]

Dragonsbrethren said:

Cool. I like Doom 2 because you can't just sidestep all of the monsters' projectiles. Not many people can craft something like E4M2 that actually makes Doom's monsters a threat (and even there it's due to restricting the player's movement).

Well in doom I find it hard to dodge the shotgun guys blasts since you cant actually see there projectiles coming towards you.

[Maes]

Touchdown said:

I really don't understand the point of this thread. There's nothing to debate here. DOOM II is better because it has more tools in the toolbox. Everything else is just a matter of how those tools are being used.

I'm with you on this one. Doom II is a proper superset of Doom and Ultimate Doom, for what regards the .EXEs and mapping features (the IWADs, that's another story). What's stopping a mapper from mapping "Ultimate Doom style" in Doom II, by limiting his choice of monsters and weapons?

[Touchdown]

Lightning Hunter said:

Did you even read the first post? I think all of us are clear that Doom2 has mostly the same tools as UD (with the exception of the 4 episode layout), but that is NOT the topic. The real topic is whether you prefer custom UD WADs or Doom2 WADs. I find myself preferring UD WADs for all the reasons I stated. Sometimes, fewer tools at the disposal of mappers is a good thing, and keeps them focused on making a simple experience. In Doom2, mappers often tend to complicate things, and the end result isn't as fun to me. That's my opinion, of course. Everyone enjoys different types of WADs. The question is, do you find yourself enjoying custom WADs for UD, or for Doom2? What are the reasons? This topic is once again NOT a debate about whether UD is better or Doom2 is better. It's about which game you prefer playing custom WADs for (unless you haven't even played any custom WADs for UD).

You prefer UD Wads because of design choices. The same design choices can be made in D2. All the things you don't like in D2 can be fixed in D2 and don't require switching to UD. You make is sound as if mapping for UD magically makes weapons / enemy progression or texture usage better.

[Lightning Hunter]

Touchdown said:

You prefer UD Wads because of design choices. The same design choices can be made in D2. All the things you don't like in D2 can be fixed in D2 and don't require switching to UD. You make is sound as if mapping for UD magically makes weapons / enemy progression or texture usage better.

Yes, obviously Doom2 WAD makers can follow the UD style if they really wanted to, but they don't. The fact is that a majority of all Doom2 WADs follow a completely different style than UD WADs. It is rare that a Doom2 WAD follows the game play style of UD. For example, how many Doom2 WADs have you played that don't have the Super Shotgun? I personally don't like finding a Super Shotgun early in the game, and most Doom2 WADs out there have it almost immediately. I enjoy using the shotgun against lower tiered monsters, but don't find as much of that in Doom2. Also, the 4-episode format of UD is a huge advantage over the 32 consecutive level format of Doom2, as mentioned earlier in this thread. It forces the player to lose all their weapons at the start of each episode, like a fresh start.

My favorite WADs for UD have a much different style than the fan-favorite WADs for Doom2. Death Tormention 3, 2002ado, Inferno, and Phobos Anomaly Reborn for UD have VERY different game play styles than Alien Vendetta, Hell Revealed, Schythe 2, Speed of Doom, and countless others. Doom2 mappers often favor slaughter-fests, while UD mappers do not. Doom2 mappers favor City themes and brown metal themes, while UD mappers favor Hell themes. These are just a few examples of common differences.

Can you give any examples of Doom2 WADs that use the UD style, or the other way around? There are very few around. The point is, mappers of Doom2 often choose a completely different style than UD mappers, which is why I wish there were more UD maps.

[Maes]

Lightning Hunter said:

Can you give any examples of Doom2 WADs that use the UD style, or the other way around? There are very few around. The point is, mappers of Doom2 often choose a completely different style than UD mappers, which is why I wish there were more UD maps.

I always thought that UD was much more "Doom 2" in style than E1-E3 (all those rust/metal textures....). However in Doom 2 it's unusual to see all this wood + metal + rust combination, even if it's technically possible. Plus, UD still has access to all Doom textures, some of which Doom 2 doesn't have... so essentially UD = Doom plus some Doom 2 textures, minus the Doom 2 monsters and weapon. In turn, Doom 2 = Doom + new monsters + new weapon + MANY new textures -some textures and flat.

I'd say that you witness the "Ultimate Doom" style mostly on DM maps, which are usually laden with ripped resources but run in Doom 2 mode (SSG ;-)