Why I prefer Ultimate Doom WADs

[Memfis]

Hey Phml, use this as your avatar. :)

[Grazza]

If he doesn't want it, can I have it?

[Memfis]

Of course you can have it! In USSR everyone had one, it was some amazing ointment from Vietnam that could heal anything. :)

[Cynical]

Phml pretty much wrote the post I wanted to, and did it better than I could, but I've got a couple of things to add on:

1. About the SSG vs. the SG, the slower firing rate of the latter means that when you're in the middle of, let's say, an imp swarm, target prioritization matters much more. Choosing which three imps to blow away, knowing that that's where you're going to have room to move for the next few seconds while you reload, is a much bigger decision than the relatively constant fire of the single-barrel allows. Add to that the fact that position matters much more with the SSG (both because of the looser spread and the possibility of multiple kills per shot- a possibility you don't have with the SG, but need to be working for in intense SSG fights), and you have a weapon that has a much higher skill ceiling (read: can create much more interesting fights) than the single-barrel.

2.

and a BFG requires you to be looking at the monster you hit.

That is not how the BFG works. If you do a semi-tight circle-strafe around a Cyberdemon, you may not touch the Cyb with the hitscan tracer blast even though you're still looking at him, because the direction you were facing when you fired the BFG shot is the direction that the tracers will take, rather than the direction you're facing when the ball detonates and the tracers are calculated.

3.

Perhaps you would like to retort with some better Doom2 WADs?

Here's 10 quick obvious picks:

Deus Vult II
Alien Vendetta
Vanguard
Scythe
Hell Ground
Kama Sutra
Chord series
Demonfear
Scythe 2
Combat Shock 2

All of those are better than any UDoom wad I've ever played (or Whispers of Satan, which frankly is really boring).

[Lightning Hunter]

Cynical said:

That is not how the BFG works. If you do a semi-tight circle-strafe around a Cyberdemon, you may not touch the Cyb with the hitscan tracer blast even though you're still looking at him, because the direction you were facing when you fired the BFG shot is the direction that the tracers will take, rather than the direction you're facing when the ball detonates and the tracers are calculated.

Yes, I already knew that. I was just summing up how it works without using a whole paragraph to do so. I'm not some noob who just started playing Doom yesterday. Nobody was asking how the BFG works; I was simply stating that it's easy to use, which I still believe. Get up close to a Cyberdemon with the BFG, and he's dead in two or three shots. What's the fun in that? I much prefer a long battle with rockets. E2M8 of UD is still my favorite boss fight, because there is no BFG to fight the Cyberdemon.

Here's 10 quick obvious picks:

Deus Vult II
Alien Vendetta
Vanguard
Scythe
Hell Ground
Kama Sutra
Chord series
Demonfear
Scythe 2
Combat Shock 2

All of those are better than any UDoom wad I've ever played (or Whispers of Satan, which frankly is really boring).

Yes, I'm aware of all those Megawads. You are entitled to your opinion, and I can see why some people would like those WADs - but I personally wasn't impressed, due to the reasons I mentioned in my first post. I glanced at several others on your list in the past to determine if I wanted to play them, and decided against it because of the customized content in the WAD files. Too many of those WADs you mentioned use base themes, city themes, and custom textures (like ancient themes) that I feel don't belong in Doom. They also suffer from the Doom2 "brown syndrome" - in which most of the maps use the brown bricks, wood, metal, base textures, etc.. Where are the hellish themed WADs? Anyway, that is once again my opinion. I truly enjoy WADs in which the authors stick to the original Hell theme of UD. Most Doom2 WADs have nothing to do with this theme, which is unfortunate.

I understand why Whispers of Satan would be boring to you if you enjoyed Alien Vendetta. They are opposite game play styles, and I just happen to like the style of UD. I found AV to be boring, because it was just running and gunning with the BFG, Plasma Gun, and Rocket Launcher. I don't even remember using the SSG much beyond level 15. Whispers is more of an atmosphere based WAD with lower-tiered monster fights - similar to UD. I just happen to enjoy that, and haven't found many WADs in Doom2 of that style.

[Dragonsbrethren]

Also, DM without the SSG kinda sucks.

[Lightning Hunter]

Dragonsbrethren said:

Also, DM without the SSG kinda sucks.

We won't go there. I'm not even a fan of Doom multiplayer, except maybe coop. :P

[Dragonsbrethren]

Yeah, but DM is where the range advantage of the normal shotty over the SSG can really show. We know id played a lot of DM during Doom 2's development (American McGee said as much), so that mode definitely influenced the weapon balance.

[TimeOfDeath]

Lightning Hunter said:

I'm not some noob who just started playing Doom yesterday.

But you think a horde of revenants is annoying?

Lightning Hunter said:

Nobody was asking how the BFG works; I was simply stating that it's easy to use, which I still believe. Get up close to a Cyberdemon with the BFG, and he's dead in two or three shots. What's the fun in that?

The fun is two-shotting cybers consistently. Why don't you show us how easy it is?

[clamgor]

Lightning Hunter said:

The Demon trap in "Tricks and Traps" of Doom2 would actually be a challenge without the SSG. Just imagine trying to kill all those Demons with the shotgun only.

The SSG ruined the challenge. It would have been nice to have played Doom 2 without the SSG. Imagine how tough it would be.

[Marcaek]

What you're calling a challenge there I'd call a tedious grind. I don't mind that the demons can't really do much, because they do at least pressure you to move and avoid getting boxed in. In gameplay terms, that's an "easy" encounter, which is perfectly okay because plenty of other stuff in map08 can kill you fairly easily.

Also insisting on using the SSG in some situations over faster weapons will get you killed. You're very vulnerable while reloading it.

[Lightning Hunter]

TimeOfDeath said:

But you think a horde of revenants is annoying?


The fun is two-shotting cybers consistently. Why don't you show us how easy it is?

I said they were annoying, not difficult. Why should I have to prove anything to you? Are players here in Doomworld respected according to their Doom penis size, erm, I mean, skill? Heh.

I was hoping for a nice discussion that compares Ultimate Doom WADs to Doom2 WADs, but instead got a bunch of trolls feeding their Doom ego. Thanks goes out to the few people who actually took part in this discussion on page one. Thumbs down to those who derailed it on page 2.

[Marcaek]

What's annoying about revenants? The fact that their attack isn't a simple slow, dumbfired projectile(at least half the time) combined with their low HP makes them quite fun to fight, honestly.

Watch who you're calling a troll btw.

[Lightning Hunter]

Revenents are annoying in large groups, because you have to shoot, duck, cover, shoot duck, cover. you can't just run in and blaze away like you can with other hordes of monsters. I prefer closeup battles.

Marcaek said:

Watch who you're calling a troll btw. [/B]

Why? Am I going to offend the regulars who have the longest penises? Or is that postcounts? Yes, good ol' highlighting and seeing their postcounts. Can't ever hide that.

[Cynical]

Lightning Hunter said:

Yes, I already knew that. I was just summing up how it works without using a whole paragraph to do so. I'm not some noob who just started playing Doom yesterday. Nobody was asking how the BFG works; I was simply stating that it's easy to use, which I still believe. Get up close to a Cyberdemon with the BFG, and he's dead in two or three shots. What's the fun in that? I much prefer a long battle with rockets. E2M8 of UD is still my favorite boss fight, because there is no BFG to fight the Cyberdemon.

Not having a BFG just makes it take longer. It's still the same "strafe away from his rockets, the Lost Souls are more dangerous than he is" without the BFG as it would be with.

Where are the hellish themed WADs?

Hell Ground wasn't enough of a giveaway? What on earth do you have against new textures, anyways? Variety is cool.

Also, DVII, AV, Scythe, Scythe II, Kama Sutra, and Demonfear *all* have traditional brimstone, marble, and redrock hell episodes.

I don't even remember using the SSG much beyond level 15.

Ok, you have to be trolling. Seriously, Misri Halek, the most famous map in that wad doesn't have any SSG/Chaingun action? WTF?
(a video, in case you've forgotten the level somehow: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9hpDejo42c&list=PL26D335B6D11D06D0&index=23 )

Whispers is more of an atmosphere based WAD with lower-tiered monster fights - similar to UD. I just happen to enjoy that, and haven't found many WADs in Doom2 of that style.

Try the Chord series. Or Asylum of the Wretched.

Revenents are annoying in large groups, because you have to shoot, duck, cover, shoot duck, cover. you can't just run in and blaze away like you can with other hordes of monsters.

Not if you're fighting against them correctly, you don't. Closeup vs. Revenants is a time-honored tradition, and you really can't play peekaboo in, say, Alien Vendetta or Scythe's third episode in many cases.

[Lightning Hunter]

Well, it's 1am here and time for bed, so I won't be able to defend myself against judgmental attacks on my skill for the next 12 hours or so. Would it satisfy your curiosity of my skill if I posted a video on youtube of myself defeating 30 or so Revenents in an open room with no cover? How about another video of myself killing a Revenent with the fists? And how about a video of myself taking out Cyberdemons with the BFG in a few shots? Would that make you happy enough to stop slandering my skill and get back to discussing the original topic of this thread? If so, I'll have some videos up tomorrow if time permits. I am not trolling here, but this thread sure has taken a strange direction that I did not intend. I would actually be happy if page two was entirely deleted from this thread.

This is like going back to high-school and having to prove something just to get respect. :laughs:

[Gez]

Lightning Hunter said:

I understand that all the Ultimate Doom textures are present in Doom2

No, they aren't.

And you don't use cover against revenants. You use mobility. Let the homing missiles move about, you're faster than them. Kill all the revenants, and then take cover -- preferably behind a cyberdemon, so that the missiles will be useful to you instead of merely crashing on a wall.

Done this way, revenant fights are a lot more fun and interesting than the newbie's tedious grind of peekaboom.

[Da Werecat]

Lightning Hunter said:

that I feel don't belong in Doom

I think I've seen this conversation before. It usually leads nowhere.

[Memfis]

Lightning Hunter said:

This is like going back to high-school and having to prove something just to get respect. :laughs:

It's not to get respect but to prove your claims. You claim that BFG is easy to master but we find it a bit hard to believe that you can, for example, kill cyberdemons in 2 BFG shots consistently. You will be tested on MAP11 of this wad, it has 101 cyberdemons, one per room. Let's see if you can two-shot at least half of them. If you can't then BFG isn't easy to use, since even the guy who has to duck and shoot against revenants hasn't mastered it yet.

The fact is, your skill is directly related to the topic. You're saying "revenants are boring because you have to duck and shoot" but what you really should be saying is "revenants are boring FOR ME because my skill isn't sufficient enough to fight them in a fun way". If you watch some max demos for Speed of Doom on maps with lots of revenants, you will not see much duck-and-shooting there (if any). That's because there are much more fun and efficient ways of fighting them but you probably just aren't experienced enough to understand that. We aren't attacking you here, just trying to help you be more honest with yourself. ;)

[Cynical]

Lightning Hunter said:

Well, it's 1am here and time for bed, so I won't be able to defend myself against judgmental attacks on my skill for the next 12 hours or so. Would it satisfy your curiosity of my skill if I posted a video on youtube of myself defeating 30 or so Revenents in an open room with no cover? How about another video of myself killing a Revenent with the fists? And how about a video of myself taking out Cyberdemons with the BFG in a few shots? Would that make you happy enough to stop slandering my skill and get back to discussing the original topic of this thread? If so, I'll have some videos up tomorrow if time permits. I am not trolling here, but this thread sure has taken a strange direction that I did not intend. I would actually be happy if page two was entirely deleted from this thread.

This is like going back to high-school and having to prove something just to get respect. :laughs:

I don't care about your skill (there's plenty of evidence on the internet that I'm a terrible player, whether we're talking about my FDAs of various maps or the YouTube video of me needing over 40 minutes to run AV 26 "Dark Dome" in a run that isn't even a max). I only care that you're saying things that are blatantly false (the BFG is as simple as "looking at your target", Revenants have to be fought with peekaboo tactics), and then backpedaling when you're called on it.

Also, there's a massive chasm between "killing the Cyberdemon in a few BFG shots" and "consistently killing him in two shots". The former is easy. The latter is fucking hard (even Tatsurd-Cacocaco decides not to go for it sometimes, if you watch his YouTube videos).

[TimeOfDeath]

Lightning Hunter said:

This is like going back to high-school and having to prove something just to get respect. :laughs:

You're the one who said a horde of revenants isn't difficult and using the bfg is easy. You can't say stuff like that without getting attacked. Considering revenants are one of the tougher enemies in the game and maximizing bfg damage isn't easy, it just sounds like you're making excuses for why you prefer UD.

Videos aren't necessary, just record a demo if you want. Here's a map where you start with 1% health, 0 bullets, only enough cells to two-shot 10 cybers with bfg, and only enough shells to two-shot 10 revenants with ssg: 2srevcyb.zip

[Lightning Hunter]

Lol, you guys are hilarious. I never said I could consistently kill Cyberdemons with 2 shots. I said they can be killed with two-three shots (never used the word consistently, or even implied it could be done every time). Way to take things out of context! I will make a video showing 2-3 shot kills if it will shut you all up. Also, when I was talking about ducking and covering with a Revenent, I was thinking about facing one in a narrow cooridor; NOT an open space. Many Revenents are found in hallways, where you have no space to avoid their shots. As such, you have to duck behind the next hallway to avoid the shot. Obviously, in an open space, mobility is key. I'll record videos to show you guys I'm not a noob... This isn't even the topic. :laughs:

[Cynical]

Lightning Hunter said:

Many Revenents are found in hallways, where you have no space to avoid their shots. As such, you have to duck behind the next hallway to avoid the shot.

What will you say when I point out that in a lot of maps, you don't have a "next hallway" to duck behind, and you can survive "Revenant in a narrow hallway" situations by staying on one side of the hallway, and running to the other side + forward to get "inside" of the Revenant fireball turning radius?

I can't wait to see where you'll backpedal to next!

[TimeOfDeath]

Lightning Hunter said:

I never said I could consistently kill Cyberdemons with 2 shots. I said they can be killed with two-three shots (never used the word consistently, or even implied it could be done every time).

Two-shotting (not three) cybers consistently is entirely possible and it's not "easy", that's the point I was trying to make. If you can't do it then don't go saying using bfg is easy.

The map I posted is entirely possible to beat, so feel free to record a demo on it (I can't watch videos).

2srevcyb.zip

[wesleyjohnson]

Even though I would rather play Doom2, I have to agree with much of Hunter's observations, but I have different reasons.

I try to avoid using the BFG. It would have helped if the BFG would burn-out after 5 uses.

I prefer the single shotgun over the SSG. But if you are going to wade in against pinkies you want the SSG. You can fight the whole level just using the SSG, which is not that bad.

It is the level design with wide corridors, open spaces, many big monsters and lots of ammo, that make BFG and SSG battles. The map designers had that in mind, and they are hard to play any other way.
Lack of variety and lack of choice leads to dissatisfaction.

As was stated, Ult Doom is like picking up an Anthology of Sci Fi stories, while Doom2 is like starting War and Peace (or 2 weeks of newpapers depending on how well you think it is organized). In making Doom2 it looks like they ran out of ideas, were getting desperate, and started using stuff that was rejected in Ult Doom.

Ult Doom has progression from startup to the showdown. Doom2, like so many PWAD, was done as a sequel to Episode 4 (or Episode 3, it does not matter which), and suffers like all sequels in trying to outdo its predecessor just by being more excessive.

What suffers is the lack of variety. It did introduce more weapons but then goes so quickly to baron/caco/revenant shootouts that it is still only a few kinds of weapons that are reasonable to use. It is easy to notice that the top monsters from Ult Doom appear often and in numbers in Doom2. This has nothing to do with counting Barons, it is about how that changes the play.

Just encountering larger hordes of monsters gets boring. I know that getting rid of the large horde is the only thing I will be able to do. My choices have been taken away. Other choices could be given in how to fight the horde, but many maps only provide more and bigger monsters, in more difficult and limited situations. The usual excessive sudden death trap, 10 monsters around me, repeated so many times .. blah.

Ult Doom had more variety than that and the variation from learning to exploring to showdowns is what was reduced in Doom2.
With only a few new weapons to offer (really needed more varied objects and linedefs), using bigger and more monsters was the only way to seem more impressive, and having 31 maps each trying be more impressive is like watching 31 sequels to Friday the 13th.

A Doom2 PWAD can be made that has variety, but it is different technique than just throwing more and bigger monsters against bigger weapons. It is Boom that saved Doom by providing enhancements in other directions.

[Marcaek]

Ult Doom has progression from startup to the showdown. Doom2, like so many PWAD, was done as a sequel to Episode 4, and suffers like all sequels in trying to outdo it predecessor just by being more excessive.

Episode 4 was made after Doom 2.

What suffers is the lack of variety. It did introduce more weapons but then goes so quickly to baron shootouts that it is still only a few kinds of weapons that are reasonable to use.

There are so few Barons in Doom 2 that I'd say this is untrue on it's face.

[Deleted_Account]

How are you guys taking down Cyberdemons with 2 BFG shots anyways? Tips and advice is appreciated!

[Dragonsbrethren]

wesleyjohnson said:

Ult Doom has progression from startup to the showdown. Doom2, like so many PWAD, was done as a sequel to Episode 4, and suffers like all sequels in trying to outdo it predecessor just by being more excessive.

Episode 4 is a sequel to Doom 2 by this logic, not the other way around. And Episode 4 really does feel like Doom 2 maps without the monsters/SSG. Especially E4M1 and E4M2 - they're just asking for something less of a meat wall than Barons.

Piper Maru said:

How are you guys taking down Cyberdemons with 2 BFG shots anyways? Tips and advice is appreciated!

More hitscans will connect if you hit them on a diagonal, since Doom's hitboxes are squares. There's still luck involved with the damage too, right? I'm not that competitive a player.

[Marcaek]

Piper Maru said:

How are you guys taking down Cyberdemons with 2 BFG shots anyways? Tips and advice is appreciated!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFU6eTTNQBQ

[Grazza]

Piper Maru said:

How are you guys taking down Cyberdemons with 2 BFG shots anyways? Tips and advice is appreciated!

The first thing to understand is that most of the power of the BFG is in its invisible tracers, and not the fireball. You'll often see good players waste the fireball (e.g. pump it into a wall) in order to make good use of the tracers. Due to the way Doom's PRNG works, two full doses of tracers will always kill a cyberdemon (even if the fireball misses). Note that you could hit a cyber ten times with the fireball and fail to kill it if none of the tracers connect.

So you need to understand how the tracers work. I'll assume you do; if not, read the BFG FAQ or a summary of it (such as this). But in brief: a little while after the fireball explodes, 40 tracers are emitted from the player's current location in the same "geographical" direction as the weapon was fired (not necessarily the direction you are currently facing). These tracers are hitscan attacks, and not splash damage or projectiles.

The tracers spread out in a kind of cone of damage, with a degree of autoaiming - that's why they can take out a roomfull of smaller enemies. Obviously, versus a cyberdemon, you just want to hit a single target, so you need to be really close to it at the point the tracers are released.

Players who are good at two-shotting a cyber will tend to carry out a little dance while the cyber is firing its batch of three rockets, dodging the rockets while moving into position for their attack. They'll fire so that just after the fireball explodes, they are close enough to the cyber and at correct angle so that almost all the tracers hit.

A similar "dance" tends to be used when punching a cyber to death in Tyson runs, but obviously that takes many more "nibbles". You might want to practise simply dodging cyber missiles close-up to develop the relevant movement skills.

Regarding the angle of attack (i.e. north, south, northwest, etc.), this isn't something you'll be able to think about much in the thick of most battles, but if you are able to plan out your attack in this manner (e.g. in a set-piece battle), then attacking from due south, north, east or west should be more effective than attacking from an angle, due to blockmap quirks. This is less of a factor with a cyber than with a spidermastermind though (where it makes a very large difference).

(All this assumes vanilla behaviour. If you're playing in a port that doesn't emulate the original games accurately in these respects, then things may be very different.)