The DWmegawad Club plays: Vile Flesh

[Demon of the Well]

Map 28 -- Tower Block - 100% Kills / 75% Secrets
Aha, yes, I remember this. One of the weirdest maps in Vile Flesh, and I daresay a strong candidate for the hardest, too. Well, regardless of how difficult (or not) one finds it, I think it is fair to say that it's certainly one of the maps where Williams tries his hardest to maim/kill you.

Aesthetically, this is a very mixed bag. In keeping with the running Vile Flesh convention that corporate setting = modwall, the building is lousy with it, although there's a fair bit beige brickwork and some of that creepily anonymous red velour texture, as well. The obvious idea is that the whole tower block is succumbing to Hell's intrusion on the earthly reality; apart from serious structural damage, the building is also being slowly consumed from within by a crawling rash of vile flesh (!!!). The upshot of all this is that some areas are extremely plain--long, empty, orthogonal modwall corridors with almost no detailing to speak of--while others are among the most visually striking areas in the WAD. My personal favorite is the grand, sweeping 'staircase' that seems to have resulted from the internal collapse of one of the towers....I like everything about that idea, enough to where I don't even mind the comical modwall alignment along the right wall.

As for the action, well....map 25 (UAC Headquarters) was heavily centered around the concept of individual setpiece battles, and Tower Block is similar in that it also has a very obvious theme to it: this is the 'trap map.' The whole thing is mined with snares and booby traps of various kinds, evident from the outset by that hallway which suddenly buckles/collapses with potentially fatal results. There's a good variety of perils on offer, from environment-based ones (e.g. the early catwalk-over-fire segment) to strictly monster-based affairs, like the ninja revenants on the lift-step ascent or the late imp-box. Ammo felt a lot tighter here than in many of the other recent maps as well, to the point where I was regularly juking nobles to pick up shellboxes behind them that I needed to kill them, and I also non-berserk punched a few imps and demons at various points....though my stock quickly recovered right before the end, oddly. Found three of the four secrets (particularly like the fuck-you vile at the soulsphere), including the computer area map that showed the location of the fourth (off of the crumbling hallway), but I couldn't get it to open.

Interesting map. Apart from a few troublesome distant chaingunners, I didn't find it overly annoying (also didn't kill me), but I do seem to have a higher-than-average tolerance for catwalking/platforming and the like.

[Demon of the Well]

Finishing up.....

Map 29 -- Earth Siege - 100% Kills / 66% Secrets
A highly abstract setting to close out the 'real' levels, this one takes place in the ruined skyline of the burning city--rising from the inferno below is a towering network of carved marble walkways and keeps, a final line of defense protecting the heart of the demons' power at the top of the tallest skyscraper in the UAC block. The black/orange/mint green color scheme is pretty strange, but it doesn't look bad, despite that pretty much every place in the map is one uniform light level. A good example of scale/architecture trumping the paintjob, I guess. A more substantial concern is why so many of the manmade modwall towers are apparently just monolothic blocks of solid solid rock that the demons have had to tunnel through in order to set up their defenses, but I reckon that's one of those 'best not to think too much about it' DooMisms that we all know and love.

I don't think it's anywhere near as dangerous as the previous map, with more-than-adequate resources available, but folks that are psychologically uncomfortable running around on catwalks with distant snipers may well disagree. As has been the case in the majority of Vile Flesh, the actual monster concentration is fairly light; what danger there is elides from the player's soft-restricted movement space and the monsters' advantageous defensive positions. There are no major monster-based setpieces, just a number of variations on the theme of balancing the need to dodge projectiles with the need not to plummet into the see of fire below. Tell you the truth, I think the actual combat here is a mite anticlimactic--there's only one highly ineffective arch-vile, a shortage of flying monsters, and no boss creatures to speak of. Most of the pleasure to be had elides from moving around the environment itself, not from the fights.

Map 30 -- Hell Revealed - 3,200% Kills / No secrets
Well, as I've said countless times before by this juncture, I do find IoS maps fascinating and usually look forward to them, in contrast to the widespread disinterest/disgust that they tend to invite. Unfortunately, this is not a particularly strong iteration of the genre. It is a textbook example of an IoS setup where it's essentially mandatory to finish the boss brain as quickly as possible, or the map soon becomes practically unwinnable--I personally tend to prefer IoS setups that leave open the possibility of sticking around to fight (or to figure out what you need to do in order to actually damage the brain) for a while. Assuming you don't take too long (and you don't have shitty luck such that lots of arch-viles and PEs are spawned early on), actually completing this is very easy--just flip a few switches and then ride a perpetually cycling platform to line up the shot. No sense of timing is required; the only real protection the brain has is that there's a hell knight standing back inside of the forehead to absorb the first few rockets. On the upside, the start of the map is very suitably ominous from an aesthetic standpoint, and the concept of having to pick between the BFG and a megasphere is vaguely interesting (the sphere is hands-down the better choice, incidentally), but all in all this is not a particularly strong finisher.

******

So, after finally replaying Vile Flesh after all of this time, what's my impression? Well, one thing I must categorically disagree with is the oft-repeated view that it is an 'average' WAD. On the contrary, I think it's very unusual, with a very strong sense of unique personality that it exudes at nearly every turn. Of course, because it is so highly idiosyncratic, and characterized by some mapping tropes that have become widely unpopular in the years since it was first released (the most notable of these being just how big a swing finding secrets can make in how a given map plays, particularly where hidden weapons are concerned), I can certainly understand how some players would be less than enthusiastic about the overall experience, but 'average' or 'forgettable', my lack of goodness, no. It's a weird WAD, and perhaps one needs to be a bit of an odd duck to get much out of it, but like vdgg I myself do find it compelling.

Far, far from flawless, you understand. If you were to ask me what I think the WAD's greatest weakness is, I would answer without hesitation that it is too consistently too restrained/conservative in how it handles combat. The notion that parts of the WAD feel very 'empty' in terms of how they're populated is quite valid, I think; with some modified ammo balance I think many of the WAD's grandest scenes could've been made much grander still by dint of hosting battles more worthy of the scale of the environments. As it is, it is probably too understated for its own good at several points, and seriously, what the hell is with the lack of cacodemons/PEs? Of course, despite these very real qualms, I still find the WAD enjoyable because I don't think that combat per se was really its focus. It's more of an exploratory affair, quite a long strange journey if you will, through many unique/varied settings--there are some really fascinating uses of the stock textures here, and for so many of the maps to have such a strong sense of place despite an overriding orthogonality is really quite impressive.

Top 5 maps, in no particular order:
1. Map 21 -- Flesh Mill
2. Map 27 -- Dimension Shift
3. Map 25 -- UAC Headquarters
4. Map 14 -- The Pits
5. Map 12 -- Cliff Face

As I suppose that list of mine hints at, the WAD's also a bit of a slow starter, although given the overriding sense of journey I don't see that as being a crippling flaw.

Anyway, that's that. To those few of you who stuck around to the end, you have my kudos; love it or hate it, I think you'll find that Vile Flesh is not a WAD you will soon forget.

[Cynical]

I feel kinda guilty being one of the non-finishers, given that I was one of those who voted for this wad. Obviously, I liked it to some extent a decade ago -- after all, I'm still playing Doom -- but these days, I can't say it's anything close to what I look for in Doom. Carmack may think that Doom is "shotguns and demons", and this wad sure likes its shotgun and sure likes its nobles, but I'm more into "Rocket launchers and skeletons". Or at least bigger shotguns.

The obvious standout map for me is map 12, "Cliff Face". The nobles are a lot more interesting here just because of the crossfire potential, and I'm always a sucker for super-open layouts. Map 5 "Outpost", map 15 "Village", map 17 "Guard Towers", and map 19 "The Pillars" were also all enjoyable. The rest of it... honestly, I can't remember any of the rest, unless I thought it sucked for some reason. Hardly a ringing endorsement.

Also, DotW, check your PMs. Maybe you should turn notifications on? ;-)

[plums]

Well, it's December, and I'm throwing in the towel. My motivation to finish VF really dried up after Map 22, and then getting lost in Map 24. I'll probably go back at some point, but I find I get burnt out on even great megawads.

And Vile Flesh was not great. But it wasn't terrible. Several levels had some nice moments, and a few maps in the middle really worked for me. I also didn't have a problem with the style of secrets used, and actually found them rewarding to find beyond the equipment. Also, the music is unquestionably great.

That said, there are some really tedious moments in here, and I agree with DotW that there was just a lack of monsters in a lot of places. The most challenging moments seemed to be early in the wad where hitscanners could tear you to pieces if they got the jump on you. Beyond that, and a few scattered moments, it was very low on difficult or engaging fights.

Standout maps for me: 05, 12, 16, 17, 21, most of 24.

[GMan]

It really has been a very long time since I posted anything at all on this forum!

And it has been almost as long since I last looked at Vile Flesh with any sort of critical eye. Or at all, for that matter. I'm amazed that it still gets played and talked about all this time after release. I've kept an eye on it from afar though ;)

I would have respond to this thread just after it finished but I didn't actually know it was happening until a couple of days ago. It's been interesting seeing how people are getting on with Vile Flesh, particularly those who haven't played it before. I read most of the posts here in full.

I have to say, I would probably agree with most of the criticisms of the mapset. Vile Flesh was the first set of levels I had ever made, and as such I wasn't really sure how to approach it. Some levels worked, others really didn't, and many haven't aged particularly well. Though I would argue that when I started the level set (two or so years before it actually got released) the general style of Doom level was different to now. I also probably kept things simple due to my inexperience with mapping. Another big influence was Eternal Doom, which featured far more obtuse switch hunting than I managed to create, IIRC.

However, my general approach to the whole thing was 'make it up as you go along'. None of the levels were pre-planned, though a couple did get rebuilt from the ground up (Maps 01 and 02). Other than those two, the maps all appear in the order I made them, with the possible exception of Map 32. I have a feeling I made this after finishing the main levels.

The detailing of the maps was something I kept changing my mind about. When I set out, I was intending the levels to all be Doom 2 compatible, though this went out of the window quite quickly. I think I probably kept the mindset in terms of detailing. I can see many places that could really benefit from a little TLC, just to add a bit more character. And texture alignment was something I just didn't worry that much about. The levels were all made using WadAuthor, which didn't have any decent system for aligning textures. I didn't discover the joys of Doom Builder until much later.

The music was written with the individual levels in mind, up to about Map 15 when I started to recycle some tunes. I'm not sure I could have done 32 tunes! And as the project neared the end I probably got a bit impatient and just wanted it done. But I'm pleased that so many people seem to like the music. It's even been remixed, somewhere on YouTube.

I'm happy to answer any questions about the mapset, should anyone have any (I'm not sure there will be any, but what the hell). Even though it seems most of the above players didn't have the best of times (it's okay, really!), I'm pleased that Vile Flesh is still out there. Thanks for playing!

Gwyn.

[dobu gabu maru]

^ Thanks for responding! I didn't particularly enjoy it but I do appreciate it for what it is, and the hours you put into make quite an expansive megawad all by yourself; it's quite a feat.

[plums]

GMan said:

I'm happy to answer any questions about the mapset, should anyone have any (I'm not sure there will be any, but what the hell).

Hi Gywn. It seemed to me that Vile Flesh was designed to be played one of two ways: (1) Start to finish, continuously, or (2) pistol starts but with foreknowledge of the map, especially secret areas. Is that right at all? A lot of people on Doomworld seem to be fond of pistol starts, but they also didn't seem to get the style of secrets in VF, and that was the cause of some frustration because they missed out on some pretty vital equipment.

I personally liked the secrets, I thought they were clever for the most part and required thinking (and some "intelligent guessing"), and not just spotting texture misalignments.

[GMan]

@dobu garu maru
Thanks, it was one hell of a slog. I really enjoyed it, though. I know it won't ever be to everyone's taste, but I'm still proud of it. And it seems to be popular with speed runners.

@plums
It's hard remembering my exact thought track all this time later, but I intended Vile Flesh to be played through from the beginning. However, the extra kit in the secrets was something of a reward for those who like exploring a bit more. Perhaps at times this makes pistol starts tougher, but I generally played level sets by going through them consecutively, then going back and pistol starting my favourite levels. This is the sort of thing I was aiming at.

I enjoyed making the secrets. I think it's far more interesting to use the environments to hide secrets, rather than simply sticking everything behind wall panels all the time. It makes the player actually explore the level (though I appreciate the patience this takes) and feels genuinely rewarding when you finally figure out how to get all the secret stuff. There was an element of wanting to make the levels more interesting without monsters, too. Monsters were always the last thing I added to a level, unless there was a specific trap involving one or more, and so play testing was more interesting if there were lots of environmental things to play with. Perhaps a selfish reason, but I think it kinda worked ;)

[Memfis]

Nice to see Gwyn in this thread! Hehe, have you seen dew's uv-speed demo on map04? :) A very funny exploit there that you probably didn't expect.

[Demon of the Well]

Ah, good to see you're still around, Gwyn. I reckon that WADs like Vile Flesh are liable to cyclically pass into and out of favor over time depending on where the community's preferences lie at any given point; much the same thing has happened with Eternal DooM itself, for instance.

Generally speaking the combat is the least pronounced part of Vile Flesh, so those looking for a lot of fast action (which is a very reasonable thing to look for in Doom, after all) are liable to be disappointed with its slow burn and attrition-based play. It's more of an adventure-style WAD, where the destination is the journey, so to speak. It made enough of an impression on me for me to remember it for so many years, and returning to and playing it again it wasn't difficult to see why--it's very colorful and memorable as a travelogue, if not as a battle campaign.

There is one map-specific question I can't help but ask, though: in map 26, "Service Tunnels", what's the deal with the blue key thing? It's a big optional sidequest that takes up a considerable portion of the map's playable space, but if you see it through to the end, all that it nets you is one measly green armor (and no particular bonus battles or anything along the way). Now, VF in general is characterized by a relative sparseness of equipment/supplies, which is a perfectly valid design choice, but this seemed a little beyond the pale to me. Is there some aspect of that area that's just going over my head, or did you really mean for the reward to be something else and just sort of overlooked it as release time neared? ;)

[Suitepee]

Gwyn, please make Vile Flesh 2 with more interesting monster encounters.

[GMan]

@Memfis
Glad to be here! I haven't seen the demo, but I noticed your comment about it earlier in the thread (I think it was you, anyway). I've been back to the map. And yes, that is pretty daft! Though in my defence quite easy to miss ;) I need to catch up with some demo watching, I think.

@Demon of the Well
You're probably right. I think when the mapset was first released it seemed to go down much better than it has with the players in this thread. Like I said above, there are certainly things I could have improved with hindsight and unending enthusiasm. Maybe it will fall into favour with other players again in the future.

Regarding Map 26, I honestly can't remember. The chances are I just got carried away, designed an entire area and then had no real plan of how to sit it properly within the rest of the map. It didn't dawn on me at the time, clearly. I've been replaying some of the maps over the last couple of days, so I'll have a look at 26 again. This sort of thing is the downside of not really planning the levels in advance ;)

[GMan]

Oh, and @Suitepee
It was always on the cards to do a sequel, but I'd mapped myself silly by the end of Vile Flesh. Chances are it would have played differently, though I still quite enjoy the sorts of encounters featured in VF. I started a couple of others maps, including a Heretic map set, but nothing ever got finished. All were more detailed than Vile Flesh, and I paid far more attention to things like texture alignment. Maybe I'll get round to finishing them some day...

[Suitepee]

GMan said:

Oh, and @Suitepee
It was always on the cards to do a sequel, but I'd mapped myself silly by the end of Vile Flesh. Chances are it would have played differently, though I still quite enjoy the sorts of encounters featured in VF. I started a couple of others maps, including a Heretic map set, but nothing ever got finished. All were more detailed than Vile Flesh, and I paid far more attention to things like texture alignment. Maybe I'll get round to finishing them some day...

Here's hoping I get to play Vile Flesh 2 next year at some point then!

Also you considered contributing to Doomworld Mega Project 2013?

[plums]

GMan said:

I started a couple of others maps, including a Heretic map set, but nothing ever got finished.

I would love to see this sometime, even if it's just a WIP release of what you have done so far. I agree with DotW that the mapping style of VF was more adventure-oriented than focused on combat, and I think this kind of thing would fit Heretic/Hexen better than Doom.

[GMan]

@Suitepee
I think if there ever is a sequel, it will be some way off. It took me 2 years or so to make the first one! I haven't done any actual map making for a few years, so I hadn't considered contributing to anything at the moment.

@plums
I dug out the Heretic mapset. I'd finished four levels, of an intended 9. I think I was just going to do one episode, though I'd considered doing a hub in ZDoom, so that levels could be completed in any order. Though playing through it, I think it would work well as a standard a-b level set. The battles in it are pretty full on, and I'm not sure if I'd quite got the ammo/pickups/enemy balance quite right. I'll have to see if I can find some time to pick it up again.

[plums]

GMan said:

I dug out the Heretic mapset.

Wow, awesome! Hope it gets a release sometime.