Swim With The Whales [Final Release]

[TimeOfDeath]

Looks cool. I think Ribbiks wants to work at Marine Land when he grows up:

[mouldy]

Ribbiks said:

eesh, the fact that that mastermind fight is such a roadblock for so many people is surprising me, it didn't really give me or my playtesters any trouble. I'm comfortable now nerfing that area a little bit on HMP.

It might be that I'm tackling it wrong, but the way I was playing it involved standing waiting for him to shoot at me and hit a few of the monsters behind, then wait til he's finished fighting those and repeat. It involved a lot of luck and waiting and after a while I just thought sod this, that mastermind is playing this game more than I am, so I gave up. I wouldn't worry too much though, if the gameplay is largely engineered for very specific tactics then it probably won't be my cup of tea anyway.

[Cynical]

mouldy said:

It might be that I'm tackling it wrong, but the way I was playing it involved standing waiting for him to shoot at me and hit a few of the monsters behind, then wait til he's finished fighting those and repeat. It involved a lot of luck and waiting and after a while I just thought sod this, that mastermind is playing this game more than I am, so I gave up.

This is exactly the same problems with it that I had.

(Well, except with my first two attempts, instead of quitting, I just decided "fuck this", started firing rockets into the phalanx of smaller enemies, and got murdered horribly.)

[Ribbiks]

UV pretty much requires the MM gets involved, HMP not so much, for example you can alternatively:

- brush up again HKs, exposing vile, RL to death
- wake things up, then wander about camping any of the sensible locations
- just go full retard with RL/PG (if you entered with sufficient resources)

The infighting is nice, largely for the sole purpose of getting the MM distracted so you're free to use the entire arena to take out the vile after waking things up. So specific tactics? not so much. though I guess I'm at fault for having a situation where everyone's first instinct is to play it unenjoyably :p. and fuckit dude, probably gonna nerf it anyway.


also awesome demo danne, and yes ToD I've contemplated dropping out of uni and working at Seaworld!

[WH-Wilou84]

A bunch of FDAs on all maps :
http://www.mediafire.com/download/g4lr59r3p02ycfk/swtw_betaR1-fdapack-wh.zip

I've been awaiting this wad for quite some time now, and it's even better than what I expected.
Visuals are gorgeous, and the automap views alone are a work of art.

Gameplay is up to par with Stardate 20X6 ( which means "excellent, extremely hard, well planned" in my book ) for what I have seen. Map 31 is way easier here though ( provided you find a lame way to deal with the Cyberdemon area ).

I cringed at the jumping sequence in map 01 but after a few deaths it wasn't that bad.

Cool visual trick with the midtextures just before this "useless lift" on map 01.

On map 03 I was unconfortable with letting major threats live behind me ( Revenants, Cyberdemon etc. ) and still I was starving for ammo and health all the time... Instead of fat brown whales with flamethrowers for arms, what about a couple cute mermaids giving you some actual health and ammo for a change ? :o
Maybe I've missed many secrets though... Including the one I got killed into.
I shall retry maps 02 and 03 with saves, just to see all the cool stuff I've missed. :)

Excellent work so far.

[gggmork]

Not an fda, I was just too lazy to rename it. First part was more memorized and faster, when I start going slow is when stuff was only half memorized because I only did the rest with idfa and iddqd briefly.
http://www.filedropper.com/swtwbetar1-02-fda-ggg
spoiler: I died
also I pressed escape to pause sometimes cuz Skittle Bumpkins the fewocious tigoow tinks a keybowd is a perfecwy acceptabow pwace to walk awound on.

[TimeOfDeath]

haha, so essel is j4rio and gggmork is Grazza?

[Obsidian]

AND I'M KENNY ROGERS!

Sorry. =D I kind of wish MAP01 had a bit more to it, but I can't deny that it looks great. Will probably try the other maps properly when I finish squashing Vanguard into the ground.

[Veinen]

Beautiful stuff, really liked these maps. Played through the whole thing on UV with extreme save-spamming and good god is it merciless. Maps 02 and 31 are manageable but some parts of map03 were just way beyond my paygrade. It's not even the occasional slaughter hordes that gave me fits but the monster placement that is so very cruel, most notably the AVs that show up in almost every battle. But even though it brutally murders me, I still liked map03 the best. Just love the layout and the general openness it has. Combat is challenging but not unfair, just a matter of developing a working strategy (skipped the BFG fight because it seemed rather ridiculous, but I assume there's a strategy to it as well).

The only thing I disliked was the mandatory platforming crap. I really don't get the fascination for that shit but obviously some people disagree since those "puzzles" are being put into the maps in the first place.

[gggmork]

TimeOfDeath said:

haha, so essel is j4rio and gggmork is Grazza?

I'm not sure you're ready to go down this rabbit hole, but I'm actually a multiple account... of you.

[Ribbiks]

thanks for the kind words wilhou, and for the demos wh/ggg, will look forward to watching those.

Veinen said:

The only thing I disliked was the mandatory platforming crap. I really don't get the fascination for that shit but obviously some people disagree since those "puzzles" are being put into the maps in the first place.

a.) it's not mandatory if you get the black key
b.) there's only platforming stuff on UV
c.) I like it :p

btw thanks for playing, grats on clearing UV :)

[Demon of the Well]

These really are gorgeous, even moreso than most of what was in Stardate-20X6. The indigo/black color scheme really works for me. It's a shame there's only 4 maps, and that one of those is just a weird little fragment.

Anyway, I enjoyed playing them, too, that's the main thing. I played on UV and had a grand old time, although at this difficulty it eventually gets to be a little more stressful at points than I'd want to partake of every single day of my DooMing career....still, I'm really glad challenges like this exist. Map 02 was my favorite of the set, with a pleasing tense/lull rhythm and a number of clever encounters that stand out in my mind, particularly the cyber-twins, and the rush of imps/commandos that suddenly crash what looked like it was going to be a two-vile party. I also liked the controversial mastermind area, even, a nice battle-puzzle. I would agree with others that perhaps you might try lengthening the spider's platform a bit to encourage it to fire more often, though--the idea is certainly sound, but it's the kind of thing that's prone to take longer than is really good for the encounter's benefit if RNG decides to be prudish. It's not really a huge issue, though, as even on UV you really only strictly need the spider to pull a few knights if you have a good plan for attacking the viles. Oh, and the secret plasma rifle battle, liked that, too, although it's another one that can go a little south if the cyberdemon decides he doesn't feel like firing at you in a timely fashion.

Incidentally, despite some of the criticism it got in Stardate, I'm personally glad that you decided to keep with the practice of sticking potentially dangerous battles in secrets--to my way of thinking, a hidden battle and new scenery/opportunities for exploration can be a reward in themselves if done well, wholly apart from whatever weapons/supplies a player might stand to gain from completing them. It adds intrigue to a map, and intrigue's almost always good.

Map 03, man that's a ball-buster. I haven't been able to beat it without allowing myself a couple of saves yet, but I'm glad I swallowed my pride and used them so I could see the later parts, as they're quite picturesque. The thing here is that I think the earlier parts of the map are actually a lot more grueling than the later bits--there's just so little wiggle-room in the health and ammo department that any real mistake will eventually see you ground into the dirt through attrition, and dealing with the earlier encounters in a fairly safe and/or ammo-efficient way requires some time-consuming acrobatics/infighting antics, which at their worst border on the metagame-y. When I began to discover more secrets on repeat attempts I was able to pick up some momentum, but before then, whooooo. Like I said, the later, more traditionally 'slaughterous' encounters almost feel like a destressing excercise in comparison. Still an enjoyable experience, but man, my pride--and my neck and back!--are glad that not all maps are this unforgiving.

The bonus map felt like a true spiritual successor to map 31 in Stardate, and not just because of the cheesy pop MIDI--like that map, it kills the shit out of you if you bumble about, but it's actually probably the easiest proper map once you've seen its tricks a time or two. Particularly liked the cyberdemon rocket-tunnel setup.

I do have a couple of complaints, both fairly minor. The main one is that I feel some of the use of damage floor is more thrown-in or idly spiteful than it really needs to be. I've seen you use damage floor before to put an interesting twist on major battles--for example, the final battle in 'Vehelits'--and I certainly understand/respect its applications in preventing camping/cheesing of certain kinds of fights (hence the ooze outside the dual-cyb room in map 02), but when there's just a random little patch or stripe of it in a mid-sized room where the actual encounters don't really seem designed around any kind of 'the floor is lava!' concept, it just comes off like a haphazard jab for the sake of obnoxiousness, somewhat out of keeping with the generally very highly-choreographed nature of these fights. The second is that I feel like maybe the 'this switch obviously brings these dormant monsters to life, but what else can I do but throw it?' setup is overused a bit over the course of the two main maps, to the point where it seems like it's beginning to flirt with the outskirts of parody by the end. Not really anything to do about this now, but something to consider for next time, maybe--'variety in all things', as they say.

Didn't see any actual bugs, just a few lighting anomalies, and some thin lines in the 'sky' for a few instants in a few places in map 03.

On the whole, really fascinating maps, and a real treat for the eyes, too--more please!

[Steve D]

Well, Cynical talked me into trying to finish on HMP, and sure enough, I got past the teleporting Imps and Chaingunner only to freeze at the double-Cyb arena. It didn't occur to me to check if I could just escape from there. Doh! ;D

So I decided to re-start the map from HNTR as planned, and I was pretty well sailing through it and really enjoying myself. I did have a death count because, after all, I'm a spastic keyboarder and a kamikaze to boot. So a high death count is expected in any kind of hard map. I was pretty well pleased, though, as the map seemed to be hitting the difficulty I like, which is to say, practically anyone else's "hard" map on UV. ;D As one example, I think only map19 and Map24 of BTSX E1 can compete, on UV, with this map on HNTR, at least for me with my playstyle.

So anyway, the early fights were easier, and the SpiderQueen section was much easier thanks to the absence of Archie. I still died twice here while testing out strategies. I was able to get all but one of the HKs and 2 of the Revvies to fight the Queen, and I rocketed the rest, then dusted off the Queen with SSG.

I died once at the strange yet beautiful "platform in the sky" with all the HKs, Revvies and Mancs showing their backsides. I attacked it first with the PG, died, and did much better the second time with the RL. The key was killing the Revvies, for which the PG sucked since it didn't seem to target them.

But before that, of course, was the Cyb arena, where you still had 2 of them. IMO, for HNTR players, this should be reduced to 1, or perhaps 2 Mancs instead of any Cybs. Maybe we can get Melon in here to see what he thinks, since he's a HNTR player. The problem I had was the small size of the space for a keyboarder who doesn't turn well, and with the 2 Cybs teleporting all over the place, it becomes unmanageable when you lack good directional control. After 2 deaths, I sneaked past them.

Now we get to the big problem I had -- I had no idea how to access the area leading to the dark blue key. I decided to God Mode the Cyb arena to see if that made any difference. Then I took the other lift out of that arena, which just returned me to the first arena. I wandered around a bit more, then checked my time -- I was 35 minutes into this map with no clue how to proceed, so I bailed -- a shame, since i had plenty of health and ammo for more combat.

I'll check some FDAs to see what I missed and give it another go tomorrow. My death count was 7 at the time of stoppage.

I should mention that I really like the MIDI for this map. You have a knack for choosing MIDIs that complement the artistic direction of your design.

Aside from the noted problems I had with progression, I thought HNTR was nicely balanced for people who want a "hard UV" by the standards of most maps. I was having a blast, though I did think the "platform in the sky" seemed overly gimmicky, and the impassable line at the edge of the platform seemed wrong. But it was so good-looking that I really didn't care that much. ;D BTW, I was very impressed by the spires I barely made out in the darkness.

I did notice that several of the studded metal textures were horizontally misaligned on several 45-degree lines.

So I'll give it another go tomorrow. ;)

[Veinen]

Ribbiks said:
a.) it's not mandatory if you get the black key
b.) there's only platforming stuff on UV
c.) I like it :p

Not mandatory even for maxkills? I did find the black key but missed a few other secrets along with a sizable number of enemies so maybe I should explore even more... Now a little platforming isn't going to stop me from playing on UV because I love the challenge, but just not that kind of challenge. And if you like those personally then there's not much I can do is there :)

[Avoozl]

The colour actually looks like more a violet-blue than just blue which I love about it, I just downloaded this to my laptop and will play it tomorrow.

[Cynical]

SteveD said:

Now we get to the big problem I had -- I had no idea how to access the area leading to the dark blue key. I decided to God Mode the Cyb arena to see if that made any difference. Then I took the other lift out of that arena, which just returned me to the first arena. I wandered around a bit more, then checked my time -- I was 35 minutes into this map with no clue how to proceed, so I bailed -- a shame, since i had plenty of health and ammo for more combat.

I'll check some FDAs to see what I missed and give it another go tomorrow. My death count was 7 at the time of stoppage.

Go back to the start area; go to the east side, the narrow platform that had a bunch of imps in the beginning that had the switch you had to hit to lower the lift consisting of a bunch of narrow pillars. Near there, there's a small "door-like opening". Go in that opening, you'll find a backpack (if you don't already have it) and a lift. Use the lift, ride it up, you'll find four Revenants and a Soulsphere (on HMP). Kill them, grab the Soulsphere, hit the switch in that room, continue from there.

[invictius]

A Ribbiks wad isn't a Ribbiks wad without a 90's midi on the secret level.

[Steve D]

Thanks, Cynical. And I was in that room so many times! ;D Maybe I'm colorblind when it comes to brown????? I'll get the hang of this Doom thing yet. ;D

[darkreaver]

Superb stuff, indeed! =)

Somewhat frustrating at times, but hey, I was kinda expecting that!

Looks totally awesome, as usual with Ribbiks maps.

(y)

[ellmo]

Me and Kenny don't give two shits about stupid... ass... whaaaales
...we were talking about Wales the country

Looks ballbustingly good.

[gggmork]

Map 3 looks frustratingly barely possible in tyson:
http://www.filedropper.com/swtwbetar1-03-tyson-fail-ggg
At the part where I died, you can sneak a cyber rocket all the way to hit the switch at just the right angle. That makes most of them move to the wall to infight and you can pick them off one by one (didn't work that time but I still got close). And in a saves run I also did the part where you have to hit both side switches w/ chaingunners on both sides as tyson. The part with 2 cybers and 2 viles on high ledges might be impossible though, especially when you go back up the lift and meet both cybers waiting right in your face.

[Ribbiks]

damn ggg, that was crazy. pro-skill infighting, and I can't believe how long you survived the 3viles/2baron area with just berserk -.-

the lift that returns to the dark blue key area can actually be skipped though, there's a nearby teleporter to a soulsphere secret that lets you go back around (though you have to reopen the light blue entrance door, which means more platforming :p).

The fact that you would try tyson at all is absolutely ludicrous, I'm 99.999% sure it's impossible, given the number of cyberdemons/AVs you need to manually kill (normally with BFG), for example in the final arena, or the hexagonal secret arena (no cover, 6 AVs, no weapons? gg). pretty cool to see the tricks you managed to find though :)

Veinen said:

Not mandatory even for maxkills?

You can skip it completely with no consequence, with the key. there's a black switch in the slime pit of the platforming area that alters the nearby teleporter, changing it to telefrag the intial cyb, from there you can jump to the light-blue switch.



also thanks for the detailed thoughts dotw/steved, always fun to read. Many comments will be taken into consideration as the wad nears proper release.

[invictius]

Ribbiks said:*snip*

*poke* Set me up with that mediafire folder of your wads, please. It asked me to request access as it was a private folder. And my PM's rarely seem to work on here :/

[Ribbiks]

-

[Cynical]

Map 3 on HMP... where the fuck am I supposed to go after getting the rocket launchers and killing the stuff down there?

Every switch requires the light blue key, which I can see but can't get to. I found the shoot-switch that lets me teleport back to the start area, but there's nothing to do there. I ended up just wandering around forever hitting walls futilely until one of the gave way and dumped me into an inescapable pit (why the fuck would you put a trap like that in a level?!?!)

Also, from the top rocket launcher, it's possible to jump into an impossible fight if you jump to the rockets/cells secret and then jump onto the "smaller" island below; it triggers the Manc/Revenant battle, but the Revs just spawn right in your face while you're cornered.

Here's the demo: http://www.mediafire.com/download/cdebr8lucdaudl9/swtw03hmp2WTF.lmp

I'd say that this one needs some rework to the layout.

[dannebubinga]

Cynical:

You just press the switch inside the monstercloset near the light BK area. The closet that holds some AV's, Pe's and revs. It will teleport you to the light BK. Make sure you play with cl_9.

Jumping from the RL area triggers the teleporters just so the fight won't brake.

I'd say you need some work with your playing and sense of direction.

[Dime]

Looks cool, will try this wad out tonight on stream.

[Ribbiks]

oi gl. ready yourself for pain :)

drop a link and I'll check it out (assuming it gets recorded)

[Dime]

Ah missed your message ribbiks. Map 2 turned out to be a lot of fun. But I messed up the order or something on map 3 and ended up with low ammo in the section with revenants/barons/2 cybers and arch-viles on each side. Didn't seem like there was much of a safe zone in that area and unfortunately I ended up saving the game.

Either I wasted too much plasma taking out the cyber who was defending the nasty platforming section or im worse than I thought. Other than getting stuck, I really enjoyed it. The 4 cyber arena was pretty intense.

[Soundblock]

Nice looking screenshots. Props!