The DWmegawad Club plays: (Ultimate) DOOM

[The Boulder]

I'm not convinced the lull is entirely because of the (i)wad choice, and even if it is, there is no reason to necessarily think that if a pwad is chosen, the lull will continue. I don't think a break in this monthly tradition is justified based on the premises given. It's probably time about now that people simply can cast their vote (a brief post) on this thread of D2TWID, Concerned, or whatever else they want, preferably but not necessarily contemporary. If truly no one posts a preference or any other form of interest, then maybe it is good to skip a month. But definitely skipping a month without at least allowing some voting does not seem to be warranted.

[Steve D]

Note to Hurricyclone -- I certainly haven't lost an ounce of enthusiasm. As you noted in an earlier post, Christmas was a major momentum-killer for many of us, including myself. I played all the E3 maps last Sunday and after posting the first commentaries, I had no more time until now to finish them.

BTW, I went to my sister's for Christmas, and all the little crumbsnatchers were there. Once they worked themselves into full honk it was World War 3, and trust me, there are few sights more unnerving than a light-sabre armed 2-year old sociopath with blood in his eye! ;D A howling good time was had by all, of course!

Okay, back on topic . . .

E3M5 – Unholy Cathedral. Kills – 97, Items – 97, Secret – 80. Time 24:29. End Health – 200, Armor – 29. Death Count – Zero

One of my least-favorite maps to pistol-start, though I may try it again soon now that I know the path better.

Anywho, on continuous, I found this map a total blast. No more running from Pinkies in shrieking terror until I finally get a shotgun or Zerk. I do tend to agree with some of the commentators who weren’t thrilled with the teleport puzzle. And that bit in the square room with the chaingun and blue key was a little tedious, too. Just the same, it’s one of Sandy’s better-looking maps, and it also has some special Amiga significance for me.

Back in the Paleozoic, when I used to hang out with Eryops, my beloved Amiga 4000T received its Doom ports. At the time, I had a 20-inch Toshiba TIMM, a kind of cross between TV and computer monitor – mostly TV – that could handle resolutions up to 800 x 600. I used the TIMM to handle the Amiga’s native NTSC and PAL screenmodes, while I used a 17-inch monitor connected to a video card for everything else, making the miggy my first dual-monitor machine. I played Doom in NTSC Hi-Res, which delivered a stunningly huge and colorful display of fullscreen 320x200 (believe it or not), and I used to really enjoy playing this map because all that SP_Hot looked really cool on the TIMM, and so did the Barons. Mac and PC friends were amazed! ;D

This is another mostly symmetrical map, and is quite tricky. It’s also a massive map by Doom standards, with 268 sectors, and pretty good detail here and there. As DoTW noted, combat is reasonably easy except for pistol-start, where you mostly suffer from lack of health and ammo. For me, it’s yet another fun as hell E3 map.

[Steve D]

The Boulder said:

But definitely skipping a month without at least allowing some voting does not seem to be warranted.

I thought votes had been cast and that D2TWiD had a slight lead on Concerned, although Whitemare had at least 2 votes, I think.

I'd be happy with any of the options. Of course, I playtested Concerned prior to release, and can verify that it's a killer Doom 1 megawad. Having played this already is the only reason I chose D2TWiD, in fact.

I also wouldn't mind doing another month of episodes, if people have any they'd like to nominate.

[Steve D]

E3M6 – Mt. Erebus. Kills – 100, Items – 91, Secret – 50. Time 23:09. End Health – NR*, Armor – NR*. Death Count – Zero *NR = Not Recorded

I have no memory of ever playing this map in the old days, but I can tell you that I really enjoyed it now that I've finally done so. Oh man, the Fireblu buildings! Loved it! The first Doom Sandbox, ‘ey? Very clever how Sandy staggered the release of enemies to keep the pressure more or less constant. Also, props to Sandy for staggering the sky-texture ceiling heights to achieve the “hut effect” out on the lava. Color me impressed.

The write-up is kinda lame because I played this map last Sunday, so I don’t recall the gameplay progression. There were a few tense moments and some decent fights, though. Lost Souls and Cacos were especially menacing. The main thing I remember is I had a smile on my face all the way through. I can see why so many players view this as a classic. I agree.

[The Boulder]

Regarding the idea of episodes: Keeping this contemporary, it could be Visions of Eternity (9 levels) + Swim With the Wales (3 levels intro excluded) + Kuchitsu (6 levels) + Dark Side of Deimos (9 levels). Two of these are for Doom II and two for Doom I - total 27 maps, very close to the right amount. Would just need preferably another 4-6 level wad to squeeze in. Maybe 900 Deep in the Dead (9 levels, but they are 100 line levels, so 2 levels a day would be easy for that wad). Or perhaps do ZDCMP2? While it's only one level, it's so huge with so many areas that splitting it into half a week would be easy.

Either wad I like that possible idea as well as the megawads going around. Would be nice mix between Doom I/II as well.

It would seem the most plausible ideas (in no order) would be:

1) D2TWID
2) Concerned + additional episode
3) Several episodes
4) Hellbound (putting it last, but despite no mention of it yet it is definitely something that could be chosen)

Probably a good time now to post in preferences & go from there.

[Steve D]

E3M7 – Limbo. Kills – 89, Items – 87, Secret – 75. Time 22:45. End Health – 86, Armor – 0. Death Count – Zero

Ah, all the way through the main maps without a death! Gotta love continuous! ;)

This is a map that I’ve disliked on pistol-start because my deaths usually occurred on toxic floors trying to figure out another teleport puzzle which, thanks to an early computer-game trauma, I'm not especially fond of. You see, the first computer game I ever played was Power Pete on the Mac (now known as Mighty Mike). It’s a really cool side-scroller about toys coming to life in a toy store. Yeah, old idea. Anyway, I was tooling along just fine in this game until I reached the teleport-puzzle level. I never figured out that puzzle, and I never finished the game. I've been butthurt about that ever since.

Limbo’s puzzle is a bit easier, but it did induce a little tedium and some alarming drops in health.

Aside from that, it had the typical battle-plan of E3 – Pinkie-pounce at the start, and if you pistol it, running around like crazy searching for a shotgun, some ammo, and a Zerk, but IIRC, this map has no Zerk, or Chainsaw. Luckily, I found the BFG, not sure if I found the PG. Still, combat was a bit easy on this map, more than necessary, IMO, but just the same, I enjoyed the loopy flow. This is definitely a map where you fight the environment more than the monsters. On pistol, I dislike it, but on continuous, I had more fun than I expected. Yet another E3 winner!

[Steve D]

@The Boulder

I like all the episode ideas you presented. I've played 900 Deep In The Dead, great stuff, though it can all be played in a single morning session, which has its attractions. Jayextee also has Nex Credo out there, with 11 maps. Kuchitsu is good-looking and clever, if a bit easy. Swimming with Whales is definitely NOT easy. I'd vote for it, and play on HNTR. I've played some of Visions of Eternity, too. Excellent maps, and I've fallen way behind in play and commentary, as with Nex Credo.

I'm also quite intrigued by Hellbound, but not sure if it can get the needed support since a few club members have played it already.

So . . . my vote for D2TWiD still stands. I might change my vote to episodes if a few people decide to go that way.

[Steve D]

E3M8 – Dis. Kills – 50, Items – 0, Secret – 0. Time 1:04. End Health – NA, Armor – NA. Death Count – Zero

And a trivial BFG-blasting of the Spider mastermind to round out my zero-death playthrough of E3's main maps. I’ve pistol-started this map recently and still had a fairly easy time of it. Nothing more to say on this one, really, so let’s talk about the secret level.


E3M9 – Warrens. Kills – 100, Items – 100, Secret – 100. Time 17:22. End Health – 170, Armor – 32. Death Count – 2

Oh, my charmed run comes to a close. Yeah, I once again failed to find the supposedly easy-to-find secret exit, and so I have to pistol-start another secret map. Once again, I have no memory of ever playing this before, but since it’s just a revised E3M1, at least I managed to remember how to play the start.

My first death came at the fake exit when the Cyb was revealed. It shouldn’t have happened, but I just diddle-fuck-spazzed on the keyboard and ended up standing stock still as I ate an incoming rocket. After that offense, I chose not to avoid the Cyb, and killed it out of spite.

My next death occurred when teleporting into the big L-shaped hallway with a fuck-ton of Sergeants in it. Beat it on the second try, albeit with minimal health remaining, though I managed to beef myself back up. Also spent some time wandering aimlessly looking for the exit before I consulted DB2. Oh, the shame! :D

I frankly enjoyed the hell out of this map. The revisions led to some nice pitched battles and moments of sweat-inducing tension. Big win!!!!!

[The Boulder]

The only reason I didn't include Nex Credo is because it seems Jayextee kind of lost interest. If that's not the case, it's perfectly fair game. Of the ones I mentioned Dark Side of Deimos is possibly the weakest of the bunch so it could be replaced with Nex Credo. That now would have 29 days covered (instead of 27), but playing 900 Deep in 2-3 days (3 maps a day) should be quite manageable.

It might be best to do Kuchitsu right after Swim With the Wales, to give everyone a breather!

[Steve D]

The Boulder said:

It might be best to do Kuchitsu right after Swim With the Wales, to give everyone a breather!

Tru dat! ;)

Well, I'm game. What say everyone else? Episodes or megawad or take a month off?

[Steve D]

Final Thoughts on Inferno

Historically, I've tended to view Inferno as the ugly sister of Ultimate Doom, coming right after a decent E2 and before a sometimes amazing E4. But times and opinions change, and this time, I thought E3 shat all over E2, which I guess is, to me, the new ugly sister of Ultimate Doom.

I really enjoyed the hell out of E3. I thought the Hell Theme was done better than E2's HellTech Theme. I thought the maps were overall better-looking, with layouts at least the equal of those in E2, and usually better.

Admittedly, I didn't see anything quite as awesome to me as E2M2, but I also saw nothing as lame as E2M6. I think Inferno's action is, for the most part, pitched a notch or two higher than E2.

Unfortunately, the type of action is the same as in E2 -- Pinkie-pouncing followed by a mad dash for weapons, i.e. The Meat Game. I've heard people say that E1's hitscanner-oriented combat is repetitive, but it's no more repetitive than The Meat Game, and for me is a lot more fun. Thus, so far, E1 still stands as The Undisputed Champ of Ultimate Doom, at least in my house.

That said, the fast and frantic encounters in some of these maps are classic, and I greatly enjoyed several of them. My fave maps;

E3M6
E3M4
E3M3
E3M9

So there you have it, E3 moves up to my second-favorite, with E4 still to play.

[Magnusblitz]

E4M4: Unruly Evil
100% kills, 1/2 secrets, ~10 deaths

Screw this map. Yeah, it's supposed to be a breather map, and it is in some respects, being quite short. Maybe I was just playing shitty/lazy, but I feel like I died far too many times on this map. One of the spectres at the start seemed to get me on the second bite every time, and there's not much room to manuever (finally used the plasma gun out of frustration). On -fast grabbing the berserk secret is very dangerous as the shotgunners will blast you before you can do anything. Stepping through the teleporter will put you right in the middle of the imps, too. The health packs near the invuln sphere aren't technically a secret, but it's a really obscure wallpush to get them. Looks-wise it's a pretty ugly level too, not sure why they decided to use brown dirt on everything. Blargh.

[Jayextee]

The Boulder said:

The only reason I didn't include Nex Credo is because it seems Jayaxtee kind of lost interest. If that's not the case, it's perfectly fair game.

Jayaxtee? At least it wasn't Jayex-tree. :P

I'm grateful for both 900 Deep and Nex Credo being considered, to be honest. In the case of the former, it was an experimental WAD that may be a diversion even if it isn't too reflective of my mapping skills; Nex Credo is also experimental in places, and will divide people. Already has.

As for losing interest? Kinda. I don't know. I have a tonne of ideas for maps already and may finish it to 32 maps in the near future, calling the current incarnation a 'demo' or something; then again, depending on my whims I may spit-and-polish what's there and /idgames it. I don't know, ball's in your guys' court with that one.

I'm game for DWmegawad club in January, even if (due to visiting my partner's family) I know I'll be a late-starter.

[Avoozl]

Jayextee said:

Jayaxtee? At least it wasn't Jayex-tree. :P

How about JayAxedThee? :P

[NuMetalManiak]

The only reason I was even here on Christmas is that I was home.

Without a fucking job :).

Having played D2TWID on UV lately I've suffered more hitscan disease, so I'd probably put that on the no.

[The Boulder]

Oops, the name misspelling was a mistake. Will fix in post.

Best idea for Nex Credo would probably be to polish it up, release it, and expand later if desired (or start a different wad) - so that considered, it could quite possibly be a good one to consider for next month - which would lend itself to the idea of episodes. Maybe call it 'Various Episodes from 2013' or something like that?

[Jaws In Space]

The Ultimate Doom E4M7: UV, Pistol Start

So yup I had never played this level until October 14th of this year due to frustration from the previous level. This is the second time I've ever played this map. I find this map to be extremely easy, maybe even the easiest of the episode, kind of weird for being right before the boss map. The only room that was any bit challenging was the big open area with the exit switch. Visually it's seems slightly out of place for E4, the whole exit area is much more E2 along with some other oddball rooms throughout the map.

[Magnusblitz]

Alright, let's finish this up...

E4M5: They Will Repent
98% kills, 2/2 secrets, 1 death

I always liked this map, especially for its interesting use of vertical space and ledges. The wide windows and being able to connect to multiple rooms is a nice callback to E1, as well. The texture scheme is a little bit bland, but not bad by any means. Playing on -fast, this is the breather map - usually only one hitscanner at a time, space between you and demons, and the lost souls are usually hidden down in trenches and can be safely taken out one at a time. Only thing I don't like is the design at the end, jumping through the window and missing a ledge forces you to miss the yellow key and BFG - gotta find the secret teleporter first (or be careful and land on a ledge).

E4M6: Against Thee Wickedly
98% kills, 2/3 secrets, ~15 deaths

I want to like this map, I really do. It's iconic in a sense, and has lots of cool ideas with the central teleporter, the cyberdemon finale, using the cards to open up multiple secrets, etc. Unfortunately, there's also a lot of frustrating aspects. First is the goddamn lava everywhere, with not enough radsuits. Playing this level on -fast is already painful enough with all the hitscanners and fireballs everywhere (and limited space to dodge) but adding unavoidable lava on that makes it a pain. I got stuck at a lot of spots because I was only at 15% health or lower and simply couldn't make it past the lava to the next objective, which is lame. I also don't know why the rightmost cage near the yellow skullkey is marked unblockable - maybe it's for the secret, or maybe it's just so that one goddamn cacodemon and just fly through the cage like air and fuck me in the ass. Also, this level reminded me how much I fucking hate cacodemons. Most IWAD levels so far put them in small, tiny corridors, but this level finally lets them fly freely around to fry my ass and use their bullshit infinite z-movement speed.

E4M7: And Hell Followed
100% kills, 2/4 secrets, 5 deaths

Another map I like. Definitely doesn't feel like an IWAD map, but instead a PWAD map made by someone who had time to really think about how to details maps (and sure enough, it is!) There's some nice lighting in the wooden hallways, and nice detailing with the texturing (I really like the combination of SUPPORT and the gargoyles faces). Some of the choices are a bit strange (the random techbase bits) but nothing too gaudy. Combat for most of the level isn't too bad, but the outside area was a nice challenge on -fast. My only real complaint is the goddamn instant-drop walls - especially on -fast, they're kinda bullshitty.

E4M8: Unto the Cruel
87% kills, 1/1 secret, 0 deaths

Another map with some nice looks. Probably my second favorite boss map overall behind E2M8, just because I like having some meat to the level before the final showdown (especially when the Mastermind is such a weakling). The amount of zombie meat at the start is pretty funny, and the rest is a decent romp. Nothing too dastardly though, even on -fast, and even if you don't come in super stocked from E4M7, the goodies here will stock you up. The final battle is a little tougher than E3's simply because of all the extra monsters, but also easier because of the infighting they create and the extra goodies in the area.

[Jaws In Space]

The Ultimate Doom E4M8: UV, Pistol Start

This is my second favorite level of the episode & in my opinion the only boss level that still holds up pretty well, but this is mostly due to it being an actual level with a boss monster thrown in at the end. The start is fairly hard to the the large amount of hitscanners, the outside area looks great & is fun to play, the 2 wood hallways seem to just be filler to get the key. The boss battle itself could have been better if the Spider wasn't so large & could actually chase you around the the pillar. Also except for the outside area & wood hallways, this map looks like Hello Kitty.

Overall I liked E4 just slightly more than E3, but still less than E1. Here is how I would rank the levels from my favorite to least favorite.

E4M3 4/4
E4M8 4/4
E4M5 3/4
E4M9 3/4
E4M7 2/4
E4M2 2/4
E4M4 2/4
E4M1 2/4
E4M6 1/4

As For the Entire Game

Top 5
E3M2
E3M6
E4M3
E4M8
E1M9

Bottom 5
E3M5
E4M6
E2M6
E2M4
E3M7

[EvilNed]

I didn't play through with you guys, because I played UD not too long ago. Nevertheless, here are my thoughts:

E1-

The classic. What's been said has been said. As someone (or many) noted, however, these maps aren't as non-linear as we like to remember. But there's usually plenty of additional rooms and spaces to explore that are not part of the path to victory. Favorite map is probably E1M6. Don't know why, I just really like that one.

E2-

Not a favorite of mine. Generally, a lot of the maps are ugly and boring. Texture choices and base designs are non-sensical for the most part. Containment Area is the sole map that's a standout, however I really like Command Center as well, which got otherwise panned in this thread.

E3-

More ugliness, but I like most of the maps on some level. However, E3M1 is buttugly and I don't get why E3M2 gets any praise at all. It's a pretty boring map. E3M6 is one of my UD favorites however, and E3M3 and E3M4 are pretty nice maps as well. E3M5 is not that great and E3M7 is a real disappointment as pen-ultimate map.

E4-

I have to admit, this is my favorite episode. The maps are of consistantly high quality and of a much higher difficulty. This episode is what E3 should have been. It's more hellish in my view, and I see that E4M6 gets a lot of hate here. That's my absolutely favorite level of UD! But as I mentioned, it's consistent in it's high quality. Only E4M4 is kinda dull.

Top 5 maps (in no particular order):

E4M6
E4M2
E4M3
E3M6
E1M5

Honorable mention: E2M2.

[The Boulder]

Looks like most plays are wrapping up, so here's what's been discussed for January - time to take a vote:

1) D2TWID
2) Concerned + another episode (see 5 for choices)
3) Hellbound
4) Whitemare + Map01-Map15 of Suitcase of Gor
5) Series of episodes of 2013 (In any order: Nex Credo + Swim With the Wales + Kuchitsu + Visions of Eternity + 900 Deep in the Dead)
6) Russian month! (Whitemare + Sacrement, OR A.L.T., OR Heroes' Tales)
7) Something else - specify
8) Skip a month

[Memfis]

I vote for ultimate doom 2

[Marcaek]

I mentioned Whitemare!

[The Boulder]

Oops, sorry overlooked that one! (It's odd, I remember it very clearly now that you mentioned it.) Added it in and since it's only half length I paired it up with another half length wad.

[Avoozl]

Perhaps Suitcase of Gor.

[Demon of the Well]

I changed my mind, I'm voting for the combination of Whitemare and Sacrament.

(Sticking with D2TWiD if the above is not valid for some reason, e.g. it's time only for a new release or whatnot).

[NuMetalManiak]

Going for the Russian stuff as well. Never played Sacrament, but I can remember Whitemare being excellent.

[The Boulder]

If there's a growing consensus towards 'Russian Doom Month', I might as well mention A.L.T. as a possibility also. Oh, and Heroes' Tales also. Not really quite contemporary, but where the consensus goes, so does the club.

[dobu gabu maru]

Whitemare and Sacrament sounds good to me too, I'm looking forward to some russian maps.

[Demon of the Well]

Hurrah, an excuse to drink even more vodka than I usually do!

A. L. T. is pretty cool, too, would be a good one for another time. Heroes' Tales certainly has its ups and downs, but of course so have a lot of the other WADs we've played, so it's not one I'd refuse at some later date.