What will be Doom 4's appeal?

[printz]

DooM_RO said:

That's basically what I feel. Phobos is basically the only worthwhile Doom 3 related mod. Dark Mod doesn't count.

Eh, there are a few more Doom 3 custom levels that are worth trying out.

[Avoozl]

Touchdown said:

Everytime I see someone mention this all I can think is: so what?! People were bitching and moaning about no source code release for D3. id released it and you know what? Nothing! TDM became standalone, big deal. People were bitching and moaning about no SDK for RAGE. id released it and you know what? Nothing! I don't see ANY reason for D4 to have modding support or source code release. No one will do anything interesting with it anyway.

Well I thought Carmack was the one responsible for pushing for the release the source codes and assumed with him gone there's a chance it might not happen.

[DooM_RO]

Doom 4 uses Id Tech 5 for which we already have an editor. As for the source code...people don't give a shit about Id Tech 5 modding anyway so why bother?

[Avoozl]

Because it's Doom and people will likely want to mod it just like with Doom 3.

[Technician]

DooM_RO said:

Even if the game is groundbreaking it would still likely offend some of the unreasonable people around here simply because it's not a better JDoom or not like Doom 2 or not like Brutal Doom (in case of the newer fans).

Do you even know this community? JDoom and Brutal Doom aren't exactly cheered for around here.

[Flesh420]

I have to respectfully disagree with that one guy that wrote that huge post. The only thing I want to feel ways about in a Doom game is that my pet bunny was beheaded by some assholes from Hell. Screw mainstream, if they can find a way to blend an outlandish/tech/Hell atmosphere with blasting demons to pieces that'd be perfect. Do it simply and make it satisfying. People want too much shit in games now: upgrades, levels etc. Doom has always been, in my eyes, about simplicity.

[Avoozl]

Wolfenstein 3D was far more simple than Doom, Doom definitely wasn't that simple compared to it.

[Shaviro]

Flesh420 said:

I have to respectfully disagree with that one guy that wrote that huge post. The only thing I want to feel ways about in a Doom game is that my pet bunny was beheaded by some assholes from Hell. Screw mainstream, if they can find a way to blend an outlandish/tech/Hell atmosphere with blasting demons to pieces that'd be perfect. Do it simply and make it satisfying. People want too much shit in games now: upgrades, levels etc. Doom has always been, in my eyes, about simplicity.

What I wrote was my view as to how Doom could work for the general audience without completely abandoning all that is classic Doom. As for mainstream, I carefully describe how they could avoid some of the flaws of mainstream games in general and specifically 3 very common pitfalls I argue against. I can understand why you would want to freshen up your Doom experience and more or less relive it, but facts are Id Software today is a 100-200 development team. This means it will have to sell a *lot* just to break even. The market has changed. Games have changed. "We" no longer expect top games to just throw you into a level where you shoot monsters and call it a day. You can't go home again.

Wishful thinking aside; until you can formulate a post with actual reasoning, arguments and counterarguments that will make sense to anyone other than a classic Doom zealot, you're living in a pipe-dream.

[DooM_RO]

Shaviro said:

What I wrote was my view as to how Doom could work for the general audience without completely abandoning all that is classic Doom. As for mainstream, I carefully describe how they could avoid some of the flaws of mainstream games in general and specifically 3 very common pitfalls I argue against. I can understand why you would want to freshen up your Doom experience and more or less relive it, but facts are Id Software today is a 100-200 development team. This means it will have to sell a *lot* just to break even. The market has changed. Games have changed. "We" no longer expect top games to just throw you into a level where you shoot monsters and call it a day. You can't go home again.

Wishful thinking aside; until you can formulate a post with actual reasoning, arguments and counterarguments that will make sense to anyone other than a classic Doom zealot, you're living in a pipe-dream.

Don't worry, he'll learn. From what I've noticed only the newer members around here think like him. I used to be like that too. The sooner people realize that Doom has many facets and that Doom 4 needs to respect ALL of them, the better.

[schwerpunk]

Honestly, our ideal expectations (empty 'hopes' would be a better word) are so unrealistic, that I think most of us keep them in a separate category - in the same cerebral compartment as fantasies involving Gillian Anderson or a giant cake that is also a trampoline. But maybe I'm just speaking for myself, there.

For instance, I would love to see id reinvigorate software renderer tech, like they did with Quake 2 (seriously, take a look under the hood (article) some time).

But likewise Gillian Anderson will never visit me with that cake, and so I keep my empty dreams safely locked away.

[DooM_RO]

Expecting the game to be EXACTLY like Doom with not even the slightest modern features would be commercial suicide for Id. I'm not talking about not making a lot of money, I'm talking about being driven into bankruptcy. The way I see it, people will have to make some compromises if they are to enjoy Doom 4. You will NEVER get another Doom 2. I can promise you this. NEVER EVER.

[Koko Ricky]

I've learned to be realistic about my expectations. I'm totally open to various newschool features, but also know that changing the gameplay significantly would make it very un-Doom. Vehicular sections, iron sights, alternate firing modes, high-concept weapons, NPC interaction, mild plot points, portable inventory items and destructible areas are all elements I can deal with, and have wanted to see since I was an adolescent. It's regenerating health (unless it stops after a certain percentage), purely linear layouts, very slow player speed and a lack of demonic elements that would be absolute blasphemy; I'd like to think id is smart enough to avoid such changes.

Those leaked screenshots from a few years back represent what happens when you take a concept like "Hell on Earth," but don't have the imagination to modernize it. I think we can all imagine highly industrialized, futuristic cities in ruin, corrupted by a massive living demonic organism that eventually leads into Hell itself. What Doom 4 is going to come down to is artists who understand Doom's aesthetic and its influences (H.R. Giger, heavy metal, "Aliens," etc.).

[DooM_RO]

GoatLord said:

I've learned to be realistic about my expectations. I'm totally open to various newschool features, but also know that changing the gameplay significantly would make it very un-Doom. Vehicular sections, iron sights, alternate firing modes, high-concept weapons, NPC interaction, mild plot points, portable inventory items and destructible areas are all elements I can deal with, and have wanted to see since I was an adolescent. It's regenerating health (unless it stops after a certain percentage), purely linear layouts, very slow player speed and a lack of demonic elements that would be absolute blasphemy; I'd like to think id is smart enough to avoid such changes.

Those leaked screenshots from a few years back represent what happens when you take a concept like "Hell on Earth," but don't have the imagination to modernize it. I think we can all imagine highly industrialized, futuristic cities in ruin, corrupted by a massive living demonic organism that eventually leads into Hell itself. What Doom 4 is going to come down to is artists who understand Doom's aesthetic and its influences (H.R. Giger, heavy metal, "Aliens," etc.).

I'd rather they not make Doom 4 a reimagination of Doom 2 because you can't make a game with design as outlandish as Doom 2's and get away with it in a modern game. If they made it a hyper-realistic Doom 2 questions such as "where are the cars and people?", "why are there wood and bricks everywhere?" would arise simply because of how realistic it would be. People wanted Hell on Earth and that's exactly what they got. Earth is one of the most boring places you could make Doom in and this is why they should avoid it. Alternatively, they could split the game into 6 hour episodes. One on Mars/Phobos, one on Earth and one in medieval Hell and hell factories made out of stolen UAC tech.

As for the features you mentioned, I fail to see why they couldn't be "fun" and "exciting" instead of just "tolerable". Alternate ammo and upgradable weapons could be a really good way to modernize the Doom formula while still maintaining its legacy. If Wolfenstein is what I think it is, then maybe Machinegames could make Doom 5 if Doom 4 bombs. Who knows, if Id can't get their shit together maybe they will even get to work on Doom 4.

[Koko Ricky]

I'd rather they not make Doom 4 a reimagination of Doom 2 because you can't make a game with design as outlandish as Doom 2's and get away with it in a modern game.

Says who? Doesn't that boil down, as I mentioned, to how imaginative the artist is?

Earth is one of the most boring places you could make Doom in and this is why they should avoid it.

Are you saying that an Earth full of strange, futuristic cities that meld nature and man-made structures would be boring? An earth with flying cars, space ports, underground suburbs, demon-infested caverns, entire communities residing on the ocean surface, forests crawling with monsters and evil altars? That sounds pretty damn exciting to me, actually. I get tired of Martian tech bases, as much fun as they are.

As for the features you mentioned, I fail to see why they couldn't be "fun" and "exciting" instead of just "tolerable".

Maybe I didn't make myself clear, but I think these features could potentially be really kickass and add a lot of much needed variety and charm to a new Doom.

[DooM_RO]

Hmmm, I have recently made up an explanation for all the wood and brick structures you see in Doom 2, which is set in the 22th century. Earth now has a population of 20 billion people and the resources are rapidly being drained. Because of this, people are now impoverished, overworked in factories in order to keep up with the demand for basic necessities and live in buildings made of brick and wood that resemble 19th century London. This strange combination of futurism and Industrial London could be a very interesting setting and could possibly justify the actions of the UAC on Mars and its moons.

[Koko Ricky]

I wonder myself what the reasoning was for the archaic textures frequently found in Doom 2. That's a pretty cool explanation.

[Sergeant_Mark_IV]

DooM_RO said:

Hmmm, I have recently made up an explanation for all the wood and brick structures you see in Doom 2, which is set in the 22th century. Earth now has a population of 20 billion people and the resources are rapidly being drained. Because of this, people are now impoverished

It's an ok explanation for brick, but not for wood. In a distopic future where natural resources are about to get depleted, the last thing you would want to use trees and iron is to make houses. Everything would be made of stones, concrete and bricks, and very minor use of iron just to make essential pillars and support structures.

DooM_RO said:

Earth is one of the most boring places you could make Doom in and this is why they should avoid it.

Yeah, sure! Doom 4 should take place on Mars, just like Doom3! Doom 3 was great on all its amazing never-ending black and gray techbases with two brown cave levels.

[schwerpunk]

The wood is actually old, faded plastic, warbled and pitted so that it looks like wood. I don't know, heh, but Doom_RO's explanation makes the most 'realistic' sense. Maybe trees have taken over again, after large swathes of land have been left uninhabited after the first wave of Earth's famines.

Personally, I like to think that even the cities and 'burbs are part of the demons' invasion. So yeah, people used to live here, but not like this. Familiar places have been twisted into weird, abstract arrangements to better suit the demented invaders.

[DooM_RO]

Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

It's an ok explanation for brick, but not for wood. In a distopic future where natural resources are about to get depleted, the last thing you would want to use trees and iron is to make houses. Everything would be made of stones, concrete and bricks, and very minor use of iron just to make essential pillars and support structures.

Gosh, now I feel stupid...maybe very old houses could be made out of wood? There must have been just enough wood say 70 years before the invasion to justify houses made of wood?

Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

Yeah, sure! Doom 4 should take place on Mars, just like Doom3! Doom 3 was great on all its amazing never-ending black and gray techbases with two brown cave levels.

Come to think of it, Doom 4 should not have purely tech or earth bases. Splitting the game into episodes with different themes would inject much-needed variety in the game. E1 is on Phobos, E2 on Earth and E3 in medieval hell where the later levels are hell-factories made of stolen UAC tech. I mean where do all the Revenants and Mancubi come from? What about the Spidermastermind and Cyberdemon?

[Deleted_Account]

Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

Yeah, sure! Doom 4 should take place on Mars, just like Doom3! Doom 3 was great on all its amazing never-ending black and gray techbases with two brown cave levels.

I'd rather much play Doom 3 over Brutal Doom, lol.

[Avoozl]

I wonder why there isn't a Brutal Doom 3 yet.

[Deleted_Account]

Avoozl said:

I wonder why there isn't a Brutal Doom 3 yet.

There would be major slowdown issues from all the ludicrous gibs flying all over the place and people spamming taunts and insults, plus all the shadows and lighting from Doom 3.

[Koko Ricky]

Not to mention, Doom 3 isn't that great, so it would be a wasted effort.

[schwerpunk]

I like Doom 3, but it wouldn't really fit the lower monster counts. Now, Brutal Serious Sam, Max Payne, or even Quake...!

Although if modern games (i.e. Doom IV) were to take any notes from BD, I'd hope it be that fast, frantic, unforgiving combat is satisfying. Especially in a game with low load times, where dying isn't a huge pain in the HDD. The gore, for me, is a [pleasant] afterthought.

[Deleted_Account]

I like Doom 3 a lot, actually. I just don't want to see it get "Brutalized". Same goes for Doom 4.

[_bruce_]

Pretty interesting how "modern" and other marvelous catch phrases dictate what to expect from a game. The industry has become literally an industry when the consumer has to go along with a currently established theme instead of what he or she may want their product to be like.
Doom4 will, most likely, follow id's post heyday tactics of numbing wannabe bloat.

[Sergeant_Mark_IV]

Piper Maru said:

I'd rather much play Doom 3 over Brutal Doom, lol.

I wonder what's your point in comparing a gameplay mod with the level design of Doom 3. "lol"

[Deleted_Account]

Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

I wonder what's your point in comparing a gameplay mod with the level design of Doom 3. "lol"

Have you considered making Brutal Call of Duty? lol.

[schwerpunk]

_bruce_ said:

Pretty interesting how "modern" and other marvelous catch phrases dictate what to expect from a game.[/B] The industry has become literally an industry when the consumer has to go along with a currently established theme instead of what he or she may want their product to be like.
Doom4 will, most likely, follow id's post heyday tactics of numbing wannabe bloat.

I suppose 'modern AAA' (i.e. big budget) would be a better term. As there are many, uh, contemporary games that don't fit into the above category. See anything 'retro,' or really any game that doesn't spend a million bucks wooing art graduates away from other commercial work. :P

[DooM_RO]

_bruce_ said:

Pretty interesting how "modern" and other marvelous catch phrases dictate what to expect from a game. The industry has become literally an industry when the consumer has to go along with a currently established theme instead of what he or she may want their product to be like.
Doom4 will, most likely, follow id's post heyday tactics of numbing wannabe bloat.

Let me repeat something for you. You will NOT get Doom 2 with better textures and 3D monsters. EVER. Games need to evolve and Doom is no exception.

If they made Doom according to what people like YOU wanted, we would get horrible abominations like this example here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FP2IoVkmM3M