Interesting John Carmack quote

[DooM_RO]

"It’s been hard—one of the things that was a little bit surprising that you might not think so from the outside, but deciding exactly what the essence of Doom is, with this 20-year history, is a heck of a lot harder than you might think. You get multiple Doom fans that have different views of what the core essence of it is, and there’s been a design challenge through all of it"

It seems like they are having a hard time deciding what Doom is all about but I am glad they are at least trying to find out. I think making it purely action oriented would be a big mistake - as big as making Doom 3 purely horror oriented. Doom had BOTH action and horror sections and maps like E1M5 are testament of that.

So what do you think?

http://www.strategyinformer.com/news/26481/carmack-figuring-dooms-essence-a-design-challenge-through-all-of-doom-4

EDIT: Can someone please move this to the Doom 4 section?

[Patrol1985]

Why exactly would a "pure" action game be a bad idea?

[Marnetmar]

Because Doom is not Serious Sam.

[Da Werecat]

Was Doom 2 a "pure" action game?

[Clonehunter]

The Doom marine should also quote movies and be voiced by John St. John

[Patrol1985]

Da Werecat said:

Was Doom 2 a "pure" action game?

In terms of pacing it sure was.

Marnetmar said:

Because Doom is not Serious Sam.

The main difference between "old" action games (meaning Doom, Duke Nukem 3D, etc.) and "new" action games (Serious Sam, Painkiller, etc.) is that the "old" generation included an element of puzzle solving.

Painkiller is all about "clear room A, proceed to room B, clear room B..." etc.... and I don't see it necessarily as a bad thing.

However, I'm not so sure the model of "puzzle solving mixed with fast action" would work today, because Half-life achieved success in 1998 EXACTLY because it broke with this model.

EDIT: I mean the "traditional" puzzle solving, which usually meant you had to find key coloured X, open its matching door and press a button. Half-life had lots of puzzles as well, but more varied and it wasn't actually about running through a maze. Save for I believe one level (the one where you drive this small cart on rail tracks) it was very linear, unlike Doom.

[bcwood16]

Doom is very action packed...hence why its great to just sit down and chill out with not much thinking.....just watching gore go all over the screen! :)

However, it does have some puzzle thinking and many secret areas so if you need a quick break or in that sort of mood, there is plenty that can be found from looking behind corners to very secretive doors.

Only thing I was never a great fan of was not so much the level design, but the theme, sometimes it was just too random and not sure what the level was supposed to represent, thats why in many ways I prefer Ultimate Doom levels, as they certainly tried to be 'something'....though you still had to use your imagination a little, which is nice actually.

Half-Life was great because the puzzles were in 'real' places, well when I say real you knew what room you were in and what puzzle you needed to do to progress. There was hardly no back tracking, which usually I don't like, but in Doom it worked as often getting a key and going back through an area reveals more monsters from now opened secret Doors and things.

So personally I think Doom 4 needs to have maps laid out in a similar way, but have a more 'modern' feel to them with pipes, machines and stuff. Keycards can still work, getting them from dead body A who was last seen in Room D.....some logs with clues may be good, but nothing that makes you stop too long to listen to long audio logs, needs to be quick. Finally the weapons need to be good!....really good! Along with lots of gore and blood....sorted!

[DooM_RO]

To those who are unsure, I suggest you study/pay attention to levels like E1M5. It starts out as a very action-packed level but there are alternative pathways and the very last room is something completely unexpected which is why it worked as a horror section. A game like Doom NEEDS VARIETY and this can be achieved by placing horror/action sections at different intervals of time. Some levels should be huge with tons of monsters, a few should be like Doom 3 and most should be somewhere in between.

Maybe the game can also have themed episodes that have their own flavor.

E1 is dark and claustrophobic but with more variety in terms of monster placement, monster count and more lighting and level design variety. Basically Doom 3 but done right.

E2 is set on Earth. The action begins to intensify, new enemies appear, the old ones have slightly altered models with new skins and new abilities, weapons now have alternative fire (shotguns can fire incendiary rounds)

E3 initially starts slower to set the mood and this is where you can have a lot of variety. Heretic-like castles and cathedrals, hell-factories made from stolen UAC technology, a level with irrational level design. The weapons are based on the originals but are magical and can be leveled up as you use them. 4 is the Necromanteion. It is a "chaingun" that has faster rate of fire on default-mode but when it levels up you can choose between two permanent upgrades .The Leecher steals life (a full magazine restores up to 25%) or The Reviver, which raises a monster to fight for you based on its power level.

I would also love to see an explosive lost soul variant...always thought they would have been more interesting as a flying kamikaze monster.

[Da Werecat]

Re: Puzzles and backtracking

Keep in mind that big sprawling levels won't work so well with "realistic" speeds. "Oldschool" player speed, on the other hand, tends to clash with modern visuals.

DooM_RO said:

The weapons are based on the originals but are magical and can be leveled up as you use them.

Changing the rules halfway through usually suggests lack of clear vision.

[DooM_RO]

Not halfway, more like every 33% of the game but not so much that it completely changes the game. At their core, each episodic weapon has the same core but some new rules. It should also be imperative to make the weapons completely playable and interesting to use without any upgrades.

As for realistic speeds, minimal recoil and rapid recovery using med-packs, that could be explained using the marine suit. The legs of the suit use some kind of mechanical speed enhancer, medpacks contain nanites that are immediately injected (or something like that) and the suit reacts to the recoil, allowing the use of stuff like chainguns. Of course, the speed should not be exactly like in Doom, 25% faster than walking speed would be enough.

I also have this side story in mind. It would be cool that after you finish E1, you enter a coma when you reach for the portal to Earth and when you get back, people are desperate and drug themselves with demon blood and form this crazy cult. The berserker packs are actually made of refined demon blood.

[bcwood16]

DooM_RO said:

The weapons are based on the originals but are magical and can be leveled up as you use them.

Im on the fence with weapon upgrades! Some games it works on, think it depends on the theme. For instance upgrading guns in Fallout might have been cool as you adapt them with what ever crap you find laying about to get the edge and survive. It was ok in Bioshock and hacking weapons on System Shock 2 was neat.

However, if its supposed to be 'believable' FPS game then finding a bit of silver and an old gas pipe connection then combining them making the rocket launcher fire faster is stupid! Yea because an average marine guy can easily combine junk and make weapons much faster and powerful then what the actually weapon manufactures could do!

Im ok with finding better ammo and maybe a magazine extender, a silencer, a scope (basically attachments I guess).

Hell I'm even ok with using duct tape to bind to weapons together so you can use them both at the time time.....though no game seems to have done that yet (that I know of)

[Da Werecat]

DooM_RO said:

Not halfway, more like every 33% of the game but not so much that it completely changes the game.

Of course. Still, it doesn't feel like an id game. Games by id are more consistent, they achieve more with less stuff crammed in. Ideally, anyway.

Your concept looks a little like something Raven could make in early 00s. A gimmicky generation.

DooM_RO said:

Of course, the speed should not be exactly like in Doom, 25% faster than walking speed would be enough.

Hello, new Rise of the Triad.

[DooM_RO]

bcwood16 said:

Im on the fence with weapon upgrades! Some games it works on, think it depends on the theme. For instance upgrading guns in Fallout might have been cool as you adapt them with what ever crap you find laying about to get the edge and survive. It was ok in Bioshock and hacking weapons on System Shock 2 was neat.

However, if its supposed to be 'believable' FPS game then finding a bit of silver and an old gas pipe connection then combining them making the rocket launcher fire faster is stupid! Yea because an average marine guy can easily combine junk and make weapons much faster and powerful then what the actually weapon manufactures could do!

Im ok with finding better ammo and maybe a magazine extender, a silencer, a scope (basically attachments I guess).

Hell I'm even ok with using duct tape to bind to weapons together so you can use them both at the time time.....though no game seems to have done that yet (that I know of)

No, not like that. The more you use a weapon, the more XP it gets but since Doom is a simple but hard to master type of game, you can only choose between two upgrades. Kinda like talent points.

Da Werecat said:

Hello, new Rise of the Triad.

Another horrible and overrated game.

[Da Werecat]

DooM_RO said:

Another horrible and overrated game.

I don't know if I should laugh or cry now, really. :)

[bcwood16]

DooM_RO said:

No, not like that. The more you use a weapon, the more XP it gets but since Doom is a simple but hard to master type of game, you can only choose between two upgrades. Kinda like talent points.

No no!! God no, I hate getting experience for shooting things *shudders at thought* I greatly disliked Border Lands for this....I never got the point of the whole game....dull.

Oh I can just imagine shooting imps and all these wonderful colours float off their bodies. Each bullet giving me a few points....yuck!

Sorry DooM_RO, I know thats not quite what you meant.....my imagination just got the better of me lol

[DooM_RO]

Well, it's not you getting the experience, it's the weapon :P. Was thinking about a soul steal mechanic. To be honest, I got this idea while playing Doom64, Demon Eclipse and thinking what kind of weapon system Heretic could have had but instead of finding the upgrades, your weapon steals souls and when you have enough you get to choose between two permanent upgrades. I really fail to see why this wouldn't work in Doom, especially in a medievalesque hell setting inspired by Heretic with lots of black magic in it.

EDIT: Oh and the alternative fire mode from E2 should not be like silencers/scopes, more like the extremely awesome Nailgun from the RAGE DLC but with only two fire modes in order to maintain the simplicity characteristic of Doom.

[Da Werecat]

DooM_RO said:

Oh and the alternative fire mode from E2 should not be like silencers/scopes, more like the extremely awesome Nailgun from the RAGE DLC but with only two fire modes in order to maintain the simplicity characteristic of Doom.

You mean, like in Painkiller?

[DooM_RO]

Da Werecat said:

You mean, like in Painkiller?

No, like in Daikatana :)

EDIT: Ok, that was a bad joke.

[Magnetick]

Patrol1985 said:

Painkiller is all about "clear room A, proceed to room B, clear room B..." etc.... and I don't see it necessarily as a bad thing.

Games like Painkiller and Serious Sam forget about level design. The levels are mostly just arenas, unlike Doom's corridors and exploration.

DooM_RO said:

Another horrible and overrated game.

What is wrong with Rise of the Triad? It's my favorite game from this year.

[Patrol1985]

Magnetick said:

Games like Painkiller and Serious Sam forget about level design. The levels are mostly just arenas, unlike Doom's corridors and exploration

I know. That's what I meant and I repeat that I don't see it as a bad thing. It's just another approach, some may like it, some may not.

[Da Werecat]

Magnetick said:

Games like Painkiller and Serious Sam forget about level design.

That's an overstatement.

[Koko Ricky]

Magnetick said:

What is wrong with Rise of the Triad? It's my favorite game from this year.

I haven't played it, but the endless bugs might play a part. Though that's been patched somewhat, I think.

[Avoozl]

I'm more interested in trying Shadow Warrior 2013 but alas my internet sucks.

[DooM_RO]

Patrol1985 said:

I know. That's what I meant and I repeat that I don't see it as a bad thing. It's just another approach, some may like it, some may not.

The problem I have with these games is that people think this is all Doom is about and that if Doom 4 is not 100% like that it will suck.

GoatLord said:

I haven't played it, but the endless bugs might play a part. Though that's been patched somewhat, I think.

It's not just the bugs, like I've said before, the modern graphics violently clash with the visuals which means 0 immersion.The weapons are cheap and are a far cry from what we see in RAGE. The game also has an aura of stupidity around it because of its stupid voice-overs.

Doom should be a glorious game with high standards not some humble indie fumble that thinks it is "the real deal"

[Clonehunter]

DooM_RO said:

Another horrible and overrated game.

How. You always seem to diss this, but I don't think I have ever seen an actual reason. It was one of the better shooters released this year. I mean just my opinion too of course.

I'll admit the speed may of been a bit of the problem (And I think for Doom 4, speed probably shouldn't be a huge look-at), but it wasn't game breaking and was sorta fresh.

[Patrol1985]

DooM_RO said:

The problem I have with these games is that people think this is all Doom is about and that if Doom 4 is not 100% like that it will suck.

Unfortunately you're right. The main marketing point of both SS and PK was "shooters in the old-school style" and I bought PK mainly because of this reason. However, even though I MASSIVELY enjoyed it I couldn't stop thinking that, save for the fact that you shoot all the time, the game is almost nothing like the "old-school" shooters.

The latest "old-school" shooters I recall (those which combined action with level design) were released shortly before Half-life 1, so probably games like "Quake 2", though these were slightly different as well.

Build engine games (Duke 3D, Blood, Shadow Warrior, Redneck Rampage) were a lot closer to Doom than true 3D shooters, and I'm talking about gameplay, not graphics.

[Avoozl]

Some of those games were more than what Doom had.

[Phml]

How. You always seem to diss this, but I don't think I have ever seen an actual reason. It was one of the better shooters released this year. I mean just my opinion too of course.

Personally, I'm the other way around. I keep seeing people praising RoTT 2013, but I haven't seen convincing arguments as to why.

Don't get me wrong, I was actually hyped for this game and grabbed it as soon as it went on a -50% sale. Unfortunately found out all the cool oldschool stuff it supposedly does is more in name than in spirit.

To be fair, the first Rise of the Triad was a pretty shit game. Entertaining but ultimately shit. RoTT 2013 is true to the form in that regard.

Actual issues I have with the game:

- low performance. It's unacceptable to have dips below 60 FPS on a fast-paced FPS with small levels, and those happen even with all settings on lowest, on your average gaming rig handling much more impressive-looking games.

- wonky physics. Movement is unenjoyable (regardless of which character you pick, this is not about speed but acceleration, deceleration, inertia, air control and resistance). Jumping is a gamble, partly because of the above.

- level design. While RoTT 2013 doesn't make you walk in a straight line like most other modern FPS, it's perfectly willing to make you go through six perfectly identical rooms on one side of a symmetrical room, then six perfectly identical rooms on the other side of that room; or backtrack for a minute with a grand total of two or three enemies spawned.

There's the idea of doing non-linear level design here, but not any idea as to how it should actually be done. Triggers (switches, keys) are often unintuitive, lacking visual contrast with the environment. Sometimes there's no feedback or connection between the trigger and the newly revealed path. Actual doors and random detail in walls will share the same textures.

- unappealing graphics. I'm not going to check if I'm right or making a fool of myself, but I'll bet the game was built on Unreal Engine 3. It shares this plastic, glossy look common among basic UE games, complete with noisy textures. Couple that with the copy-and-paste nature of the environments, and all in all it's a pain to look at. For me this was so bad I often couldn't see where the enemies shooting at me were until I sprayed like mad and got a "+100" score popup somewhere.

- boring enemy cast. Can it even be called an enemy "cast"? At this point I got to E2M3 or E2M4, and all I fought was nazi hitscanners. I guess some wear helms and some don't, and some are lieutenants, but they all do the same thing, rush slowly at you while spamming machine guns. Every once in a while you've got a dude dashing at you to steal your machine gun or your rocket launcher. That's it. Have fun playing the same fight over and over and over and over and over and...

- poor enemy AI. Getting stuck in doors, getting stuck *through* doors, running into walls, or doing absolutely nothing are common occurances for the bad guys. Their pathfinding is ridiculously easy to exploit (to the point it fails even when you don't try to abuse it), the slightest corner or wall indentation will prove an insurmontable obstacle.

- poor enemy placement. Most enemies are spawned dynamically (as if teleporting). Sometimes this will happen in a logical way, out of your sight; but often they will pop up right in front of you, out of nowhere. There is no teleport animation, no nothing; you're clearly expected to hang back and slowly creep up forward so the illusion works, even though the game gives you a range of characters with movement speed ranging from "fast" to "ludicrously fast". Schizophrenic design at work.

- boring weaponry, boring balance, boring gameplay. No ammo management whatsoever. Infinite machine gun makes it so there's no point using your infinite pistols save for the few seconds when a nazi steals your gun. You have a knife and an admittedly cool dash move... Except when it fails. Rocket launchers replace each other, so you're left using the latest you currently have rather than the one you prefer, and it's more a shoot and pray affair than deliberate choice. Besides, with weak HP enemies in low numbers rockets can be a liability more often than not. So most of the game (early game, anyway) is just hitscanning hitscanners.

- invisible walls. And inconsistent, at that.

- bugs, bugs, bugs. Characters will shout with the voice of another character at times. Scripts will fail to trigger.

- generally speaking, because of all of the above, a low budget, low polish feel. The devs had a checklist and successfully crossed a X next to every item, but there's no meat to this game, no depth, no soul.

It's not complete doom and gloom, I'm just mentioning the issues here. There's still an entertaining game in there, but the frustrations pile up too quickly for it to be called "good". I started playing it with a smile on my face, ended up badly disappointed.



Shadow Warrior 2013 fares much better... Ironically, because the devs looked beyond just making an "oldschool" game. Which was the mistake they did with Hard Reset, that is, using their idea of what an oldschool game was instead of what the good ones actually were, and we ended with this awful mess of low speed character fighting with ranged weapons against fast speed melee enemies in a linear corridor filled with explosive barrels. Utterly boring.

Shadow Warrior sheds any pretense of being an oldschool first-person shooter (at least in gameplay, if not in marketing...) and embraces the type of game they probably wanted to make in the first place, by giving the main character a powerful melee weapon, dash moves and magical powers. Fighting melee with melee is immediately more fun and solves much of the problems in arena level design (you don't care if the room is a box when most of the action happens at arm's length). You still have the repetition characteristic of Flying Wild Hog, both in environments and foes, but the enemy cast is more than diverse enough to make fights varied and interesting (especially as they are used well).



Best oldschool shooter of 2013? Probably FC3 Blood Dragon, even though it's the only one that doesn't try to pass off as such. You've got solid performance, fast movement speed, no fall damage, no invisible walls within the "expected" playing area, tight controls, good arsenal complete with the prerequisite uber final weapon, decent level design (if nothing else, in the sense that open world beats linear corridor); and very importantly, it's wonderfully cheesy and self-aware while staying consistent within its own universe (something I would argue is characteristic of Doom, and to a lesser degree Duke3D and derivatives). It doesn't last long enough, and there's not quite the enemy diversity required to keep things fresh for longer than that anyway, but it's a game in which it's just plain enjoyable to move around and shoot things - such a basic, important point so many shooters seem to forget.

[DooM_RO]

^ Finally! Someone gets it!

EDIT: Maybe we should also get the thread back on track. What do you think about the quote I posted?

[Da Werecat]

DooM_RO said:

The problem I have with these games is that people think this is all Doom is about and that if Doom 4 is not 100% like that it will suck.

Is that what makes these games "horrible"?

Patrol1985 said:

The latest "old-school" shooters I recall (those which combined action with level design) were released shortly before Half-life 1, so probably games like "Quake 2", though these were slightly different as well.

I'm not sure that 2.5D level design tendencies would really fit into more modern games. Then again, Quake did something like that, so I dunno.

Perhaps Quake is the closest thing to a true 3D Doom game we're gonna get. Relatively fast, levels are abstract and interconnected, etc.