Maximum height monsters can step on

[Sokoro]

Yea I use stairs a lot and I noticed that demons are dumb and wont use some stairs which are fine for other monsters.
What is this value for each monster? I tried to use doomwiki.org but could not find the info.

[MFG38]

I wish I knew the individual ones, but I'm thinking it varies between 8 and 24 units. The maximum step height for the player is 24 units (unless I'm mistaken), so that would make sense.

[esselfortium]

They don't have different maximum step heights, but what they'll be willing to walk on is dependent on the radius (and speed, I think?) of the monster. Larger monsters require wider and/or shorter steps, so that part of their body isn't too high above the lowest ground under them.

[GreyGhost]

I think it also depends on the monsters width, speed and how closely spaced the steps are, as plums discovered here.


EDIT - Ninja'd!

[Memfis]

Maximum height is 24 for all non-flying things but some need wider steps than others. I guess the rule is that at any point of the stairs all floor heights under the monster should be in the 24 range. (probably awful wording)

[Sokoro]

thanks, that explains it.

[schwerpunk]

Alright so the speed of a monster and the height and width of each stair is a factor in which monsters can traverse them... I wonder, would running a level with the "-fast" setting or Nightmare difficulty, 'break' the use of certain stairs for Pinkies?

It all depends on how fast-ness is handled, I guess. Is it just move distance travelled per tic? Because I could see that hypothetically breaking some kinds of stairs.

EDIT: Tried to run some tests in Chocolate. Inconclusive. If anything, Pinkies seem better at traversing narrow stairs on NM, because they fidget so much that if there's a certain angle they can use, they'll find it more quickly. Giving them less room to move side-to-side on the stairs didn't seem to show much difference between fast and non-fast Pinkies.

[Hellbent]

The way I've always understood it (read: assumed) is that all monsters can step up 24 units, but monsters cannot ascend more than 24 units in height per their width/depth dimensions. In other words, they need to fully fit on a stair before they can go up to the next stair, unless the monster is straddling more than one stair, in which case the stairs' combined height they are straddling are going up 24 units or less. So if you had a staircase that each stair was 32 deep and 12 high the demon would have no problem, because it would be able to effectively use two stairs as one stair, by straddling the two stairs which equal 24 in height and 64 in depth and 64 in width, before going up the next stair. But if a demon is confronted with a very common staircase that is 32 deep with stairs that are 16 units high the demon (and all other monsters, too) will only be able to step up onto the first stair because, in the case of the demon, he is not on a full 64x64 surface before attempting the second stair, and thus would effectively be trying to step up 32 units (for his size) which is higher than the 24 he is capable of. No monster is able to walk up these stairs because a monster would have to be 32 units or less in width to do so, and the smallest landlubbing monster is 40 units in depth (hence why seargents don't climb e1m1 stairs to the green armor).

Let me explain it further using the last example: The seargent steps up onto the 16 unit high stair that is 32 deep. Now when he tries to step up onto the next stair he can't, because he still has to keep one foot on the ground, because he can't fit both his feet on the small, 32 deep stair. So he has one foot on the ground, one foot on the first step, and since he has to keep one foot on the ground, stepping up to the second stair would effectively be a 32 unit high step up.

Now when the seargent, or demon ,tries to go up the staircase that has 12 unit high stairs that are 32 units deep, he is able to. He can step up onto the first stair, and since the stair is only 32 deep, he has to keep one foot on the ground before trying to step up onto the second stair. But he can step up onto the second stair, because he can still lift his foot up another 12 units to reach the second step, because the combined height means he is lifting his foot 24 units, and thus not exceeding his 24 unit limit. Now that he has one foot on the second step he can place his foot that is still on the ground onto the first step. Now he has one foot on the first step and one foot on the second step. This makes him, effectively 12 units off the ground, and thus he can step up onto the third step which is 36 units high and only 24 units higher than his lowest foot.

I've actually never tested any of this hypothesis, but it's what I've deduced from experience.

[scifista42]

schwerpunk said:

Alright so the speed of a monster and the height and width of each stair is a factor in which monsters can traverse them... I wonder, would running a level with the "-fast" setting or Nightmare difficulty, 'break' the use of certain stairs for Pinkies?

It all depends on how fast-ness is handled, I guess. Is it just move distance travelled per tic? Because I could see that hypothetically breaking some kinds of stairs.

EDIT: Tried to run some tests in Chocolate. Inconclusive. If anything, Pinkies seem better at traversing narrow stairs on NM, because they fidget so much that if there's a certain angle they can use, they'll find it more quickly. Giving them less room to move side-to-side on the stairs didn't seem to show much difference between fast and non-fast Pinkies.

The fast-ness is actually handled by speeding up pinky's AI code, I mean, durations of his states are halved. Then his moving function is called twice more often than normally (every 1/35 of second instead of every 2/35), while his speed per one "move" remains the same. The same moving function is also responsible for the floor-height checks. So yeah, Nightmare mode shouldn't affect pinky's ability to climb stairs, as I understand it.

[BaronOfStuff]

Hellbent said:

words

Pretty much. You can even test it on this piece of shit WAD I just threw together if you want.

[Hellbent]

cool wad. Nice architecture. Could make a good DM map. Some texture alignment and lighting and you'll be onto something. I like how you made it so only one demon at a time comes--not really sure how you pulled that off.

[ArmouredBlood]

This is something I've run into a lot considering how many cyberdemons and stairs I put in maps. General rule is to have deeper steps, like 40 units for cybers, or 64 for arachnos. This screws up flat tiling though, so I try not to do it much.

[Maes]

ArmouredBlood said:

This screws up flat tiling though, so I try not to do it much.

For years, Doom Monsters' workers unions have been divided over level aesthetics vs accessibility.

[ArmouredBlood]

Maes said:

For years, Doom Monsters' workers unions have been divided over level aesthetics vs accessibility.

Now I'm picturing an imp with a sign saying "Mancubi are demons too!" In front of Satan's palace - engineering wing.

[TimeOfDeath]

ArmouredBlood said:

General rule is to have deeper steps, like 40 units for cybers

Only if each step is 12 units high or less.

[William Blazkowicz]

What are 'steps'?

Could those be why these things from 'Hacx':



'Stutter' when they move? I doubt most people never even played or heard of it before to understand what the heck I am talking about.