Why is -Respawn unloved?

[TendaMonsta]

I never see this category receive any love from the speedrunning community. Why is this?

[vdgg]

I'm sure it's not manly enough for players like Vile or SAV. They just go for NM100% and the likes.

[myk]

Some people pointed out they like it, but since vanilla doesn't let you know the kill count during play it's always been something of a niche category where you have to gauge kills by habit and memory. I think improved level of play has made is a bit less awkward in Compet~n because now some people know the maps so well they can tell if they're nearing 100% kills. I think Revved and to some lesser degree vdgg have done a decent number of respawns, as well as xit vono. Outside Compet~n it's less usual because each map doesn't get that much attention, except maybe on some of the more played megawads, and there are always some exceptions.

[4shockblast]

I tried a map of Doom on -respawn for C-N, and it gets kind of annoying to see 96% and 97% on the intermission screen dozens of times. I never managed to get a demo I was satisfied with because I got bored. Though I still got a record, but I haven't released it since it's not a worthy improvement. So, it's a bit too random for me (even my -respawn for Origwad, a map with six monsters, had widely varying end times because of the randomness of the respawn time).

[Nevanos]

Huh, -respawn. Something I should consider in the future.

[didierbertrand]

respawn= nightmare of the poor guy lol

[j4rio]

It's just max with additional luck factor, and it's easy to break intended approach to that category with HUD (although argueably HUD makes that category much better but whatever, I'll pass).

[40oz]

I don't speed run but I do play with respawn to warm up. It's great for endurance exercises, or if you like a map so much that you don't want to exit. Unfortunately it requires a non linear layout and a place to hide for it to be really fun usually. A lot of iwad maps have that though

[TendaMonsta]

4shockblast said:

I tried a map of Doom on -respawn for C-N, and it gets kind of annoying to see 96% and 97% on the intermission screen dozens of times.

I find it more annoying to receive a higher percentage than 100% (Happened far too often with my respawn demos).

Do you guys find it boring to watch because I might return to Demo recording focusing on some respawn demos. I find that it can be quite challenging and offer unusual strategies to complete a map with a good time.

[j4rio]

It's not really about watcher's perspective, but rather the recorder's one. It's IMO generally unsatisfying category for recording where you just keep hitting exit switch in hopes of miracles. If you like it, then more power to you. Also, hi.

[4shockblast]

TendaMonsta said:

I find it more annoying to receive a higher percentage than 100% (Happened far too often with my respawn demos).

Do you guys find it boring to watch because I might return to Demo recording focusing on some respawn demos. I find that it can be quite challenging and offer unusual strategies to complete a map with a good time.

I don't really mind watching demos under any category, though I usually end up watching demos primarily for wads I'm familiar with.

[blob1024]

since respawn arent that common, I find those demos rather interesting actually
because not having the need to wipe certain enemies cuts the exit time so much very often.
even if it "looks" like a "lets kill some monsters and reach the exit"-run

[purist]

Couldn't -respawn speed be a substitute for where NM Speed or NM 100% secrets isn't thought to be possible? Like where the fast monster speeds prevent plausible runs in the conventional NM categories.

[Vile]

I've never tried -respawn. Some of the reasons already stated lined up with mine, though the main reason being that I had already been doing enough with the more standard categories to even bother. I've never tried -fast either, though I like that category more...

[Memfis]

One thing I like about respawn is how large crowds of monsters tend to gather together, looks quite amusing sometimes. Check out the mm21 respawn for a good example.

[Archy]

It's because of the luck factor, though like I have said, part of the skill factor is dealing with the luck factor.

[TendaMonsta]

So I'm basically wasting my time recording respawn demos.

*Was wasting my time. I have no mouse to waste time on speedruns.

[Springy]

TendaMonsta said:

So I'm basically wasting my time recording respawn demos.

*Was wasting my time. I have no mouse to waste time on speedruns.

Well put it this way, Archy was very right about the category it is mostly luck based and a lot of half arsed demos are produced. I ended up doing some for Icarus that were not beating the Max times, so I just decided to not do anymore in that category if I was not going to put a little more effort into it.

Edit: To paraphrase what I mean; I saw it as an opportunity to just increase my demo count, hence why I started producing them in the first place if I am being honest.

[TendaMonsta]

Springy said:

a lot of half arsed demos are produced.

I guess I'll have to be that guy that turns this around. I think in most circumstances a -respawn demo should beat a max run unless the map is rather small. As soon as I get a mouse I'll start recording respawn demos and get feedback from other runners because I really like this category (even with the added luck) and we need more of them. I'm surprised to see that the respawn table for the iwads barely exists compared to the standard UV-Max, Fast, Speed, NM runs.

[Zed]

OK, I have something in mind.

It seems that when you talk about the -respawn category, you include "-respawn speed" and "-respawn 100% kills (and 100% secrets, I assume)". Now, in my opinion, I don't see the point in reaching 100% kills, since as it's been implied (If I understand correctly), it's not just reaching 100% kills, but reaching that 100% killing all the monsters that were spawned at the beginning of the map, so you can't claim 100% kills if you killed a revenant twice but an imp somewhere else never even got disturbed, right? Now, what about a category like -respawn + 100% secrets (ignoring the kill %)? I think that's a little more reasonable, but I'm obviously not a speed runner, so I may be missing something. What do you think?

[4shockblast]

Zed said:

OK, I have something in mind.

It seems that when you talk about the -respawn category, you include "-respawn speed" and "-respawn 100% kills (and 100% secrets, I assume)". Now, in my opinion, I don't see the point in reaching 100% kills, since as it's been implied (If I understand correctly), it's not just reaching 100% kills, but reaching that 100% killing all the monsters that were spawned at the beginning of the map, so you can't claim 100% kills if you killed a revenant twice but an imp somewhere else never even got disturbed, right? Now, what about a category like -respawn + 100% secrets (ignoring the kill %)? I think that's a little more reasonable, but I'm obviously not a speed runner, so I may be missing something. What do you think?

No, the point of -respawn is just to get 100% kills or more; no need to kill every monster at least once. The issue is knowing when you've killed enough monsters to get over that number, and, conversely, knowing when you've killed too many monsters and wasted too much time. This is where some luck is required.

As for -respawn speed or -respawn 100% secrets, I think it'd probably be a little too similar to the equivalent category without the -respawn parameter for a large number of maps.

[Looper]

Zed said:

Now, what about a category like -respawn + 100% secrets (ignoring the kill %)? I think that's a little more reasonable, but I'm obviously not a speed runner, so I may be missing something. What do you think?

It would be pretty much identical to nm100s except easier, so the answer is nope.

[Archy]

TendaMonsta said:

As soon as I get a mouse I'll start recording respawn demos and get feedback from other runners because I really like this category (even with the added luck) and we need more of them.

It really is a great category, there's just not enough competition within it to make most of the demos interesting.