The DWmegawad Club plays: Sunder & Countdown to Extinction

[dobu gabu maru]

What is the DWmegawad Club?
This is a place where we settle down, have a cup of tea (or drink of your choice) and take a month to play through a megawad on our own, together! Any keen observations, criticisms, or frustrated ranting about it goes here in the discussion. As long as you want to say something about what you've played, feel free to speak your mind.

Can I join?
Sure. The only rule is that you have to play at least some of the levels in our monthly megawad to contribute, but you're generally encouraged to finish the whole thing, even if you've played it before.

What levels am I allowed to post about?
Whatever day of the month it is, is the upper limit for the map you can post on regarding Sunder. After that we're playing two maps per day for Countdown to Extinction.

Do I have to post an entry every day?
Nope, not at all. This is only for our more enthusiastic members. As long as you play through it with us you’re part of the club.

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The megawad we are playing through currently is Countdown to Extinction

>>>DOWNLOAD SUNDER HERE<<<

>>>DOWNLOAD COUNTDOWN TO EXTINCTION HERE<<<

This month has us exploring realms both large and small! Our first foray is Insane_Gazebo's unfinished masterpiece Sunder, a Boom-compatible slaughterfest initially shown in 2009 and updated a few years later; the maps are elaborate, gorgeous, and ruthless. To contrast that we have Obsidian's Countdown to Extinction, a megawad of 1-hour speedmaps completed just last month, containing some truly devilish ideas. Remember that the only difficulty implemented in Sunder is Ultra-Violence, so if you want an easier time play on I'm Too Young to Die for the double ammo and half damage.

Maplist for Sunder:

Quote

Map01 - “Python"
Map02 - “The Burrow"
Map03 - “The Dreaming Garden"
Map04 - “Metal Descendants"
Map05 - “Precarious"
Map06 - "Grinder"
Map07 - “Hollow Icon"
Map08 - “Pale Monument"
Map09 - “The Cage"
Map10 - “The Hag's Finger"
Map11 - “The Furnace"
Map12 - “The Zealous Machine"
Map13 - “Obsidian Nightmare"
Map14 - “Hive Mother"

Maplist for Countdown to Exctinction:

Quote

Map01 - "Contact"
Map02 - “The Yard"
Map03 - “The Database"
Map04 - “Tripwire"
Map05 - "Demanufacture"
Map06 - "Time Bomb"
Map07 - “Retribution"
Map08 - “Vietnow"
Map09 - “Portality"
Map10 - “Technophage"
Map11 - “The Vortex"
Map12 - “Wayward"
Map13 - “Sanctuary"
Map14 - “Black Books"
Map15 - “Blackened Books"

Map31 - “Radiation"
Map32 - “Rippler"

Map16 - “Volatile"
Map17 - “Cave In"
Map18 - “Steel Trap"
Map19 - “Detonator"
Map20 - “DarkSteel"
Map21 - “Immolate"
Map22 - “Writemare"
Map23 - “Mortal Processing"
Map24 - “Rabishu
Map25 - “Terramorph"
Map26 - “Tread Lightly"
Map27 - “Danse Macabre"
Map28 - “Hellfire Compound"
Map29 - “Run Like Hell"
Map30 - “The Architect"

BONUS CONTENT
Larzuk06's playthrough of Countdown to Extinction
----------
OLD THREADS
BF_THUD!
Community Chest 4
Jenesis
MAYhem 2012
Memento Mori
Interception
2002: A Doom Odyssey
Hadephobia
Coffee Break & Fava Beans & Double Impact
HYMN
Stardate 20X6 & Monochrome Mapping Project
Realm of Chaos
Back to Saturn X E1 & Favillesco E1
Kama Sutra
Unholy Realms & Zone 300
Vile Flesh
Ultimate Doom
Whitemare & Sacrament
Scythe
Epic 2
Whitemare 2

Edited May 9, 2023 by dobu gabu maru

[Suitepee]

More like "DWMegawad Club ATTEMPTS to play Sunder".

As much as I've recently developed an interest in slaughtermaps, I don't think I'm going to be tackling a super hard mapset like Sunder just yet. But best of luck to those who do attempt Sunder!

I might consider covering Countdown to Extinction, but no promises.

[dobu gabu maru]

^ You should play the first map of Sunder, it might surprise you.

Speaking of, the mediafire link for it is my doing and if there are any inaccuracies feel free to let me know.

[Magnusblitz]

I might play a few maps of Sunder but doubt I'll get around to all of them. Some of the later maps have five thousand monsters. Not to mention the extreme slowdown that ZDoom (my port of choice, gotta have that mouselook) gets on some of the levels as well.

[tourniquet]

I must admit that i play Sunder quite often, without ever getting tired of it, so this looks like a good reason to replay one of my all time faves once again.

[Avoozl]

Edit: Nevermind I just realized I made an error.

[Steve D]

Sunder - Map01 - DNF

Yeah, this is not in any way fun for me. I thought I'd take a look just to get some inspiration for my Amiga Demo Party maps, but those are what I call Hardcore Run 'n Gun with high monster stress, not really slaughtermaps or even slaughter-lite, because there's no "strategy" except running around like crazy and try to stay alive and kill everything. Sunder's Map01 does require strategy, and IMO, this would be pretty easy if I wasn't a one-handed keyboarder. I do all my movement with my right hand on the numeric keypad, and only use my left index finger for the Fire key -- "A" on my setup, and among other things, that leads to major wrist fatigue on maps like these. ;D If I was a two-handed keyboarder or a mouser, I'm guessing the maps I've watched played on YouTube, up through Map04, would not be terribly hard, but might instead be sloggy, especially that seemingly endless army of Revvies on Map02 -- just what Suitepee was hoping for! ;D

OTOH, these maps are good-looking, some of them very good-looking, so if I start soon to learn mouseplay, and improve through a year or so of practice, I might give these another try. But damn, there's a lot of Meat and hardly any Hitscanners, the exact opposite of what I look for. ;)

I'll keep reading the thread. I look forward to commentary from DoTW, since I'm guessing these maps are right up his alley, and I bet some people who haven't been DWMC members before will jump in for these. Can we dare hope that Alfonzo and Tarnsman will make an appearance? We'll see.

I'll be back for as many Obsidian maps as I can cram in, though I'm very heavily-scheduled this month.

[NuMetalManiak]

Sunder? pass.

Countdown to Extinction? maybe. so 15 days before we start counting down existence in whatever the heck Obsidian throws at us?

[Obsidian]

My little maps vs Sunder? Oh dear.

By the way, CtE is now on IdGames. :)

[Inkie]

EDIT: Waiting until the 15th to do a run of countdown

[plums]

Inkie said:

I'll do a run-through of Countdown to Extinction. Ultra-Violent w/ pistol start.

I think the idea was to wait until Sunder is done before starting the CtE maps?

Anyhow I'll definitely try Sunder, maybe I'll have to play with some super-powered DeHackEd mod to get anywhere. Countdown to Extinction is a lot of fun, very easy to play through such short maps so I highly recommend everyone gives it a look. I've been through those maps a few times now since I took on the role of bug-finder for it, but they're short enough that I'll probably play them again anyhow.

[dobu gabu maru]

Stoked to start this. Furthest I got was MAP05 and that was on the easiest difficulty, but now I’m doing UV and pistol starts. I played through most of Macabre, Insane_Gazebo’s earliest work, and found his maps… interesting.

MAP01: I remember back when I first downloaded Sunder, I took one look at this opener and went “noooooope”. This time however, it surprising how manageable it starts. Granted it’s no pushover and instills a reasonable amount of fear into the player, but I think most playing this should be able to handle the opening gambit. As a bit of a side note, I IDDQD'd through the wad when I first got my hands on it and always wondered how a player would be able to beat these maps since there’s not stacks of ammo and soulspheres everywhere, but it’s actually more lenient than current slaughter maps.

Anyway, this is an excellent opener to the hell that is Sunder. Nice, simplistic architecture that features a handful of reasonable rough encounters. Infighting isn’t as terribly important on this map as there’s a mountain of shells you can find, and the blue armor ensures that as long as you watch the cyber you'll exit with your ass intact. I really like the emerald valley outside the complex, as it provides a good counterbalance to the small dingy complex inside. It’s an easygoing map, although it may not seem so.

The one unfortunate wrinkle to come out of this is arguably Sunder’s achilles heel—switch hunting. It’s an obvious effort by Gazebo to stop the player from rushing from one area to another, but there are a couple of instances where it feels… unnecessary (as leaving the monsters alive is enough of a hassle). Perhaps the other issue I’d have with the map is that it’s very easy to finish with 100 shells and have plenty left over thanks to that stockade across the valley. That and the green armor is unnecessary as there’s not enough health to cover all the blue armor anyway. Good stuff though.

plums said:

I think the idea was to wait until Sunder is done before starting the CtE maps?

Yeah, Obsidian Hurricyclone has it right, we start posting about CtE on May 15th so we don't interlap comments about each of the wads Inkie.

[Magnusblitz]

MAP01: Python
93% kills, no secrets

Probably the only accessible Sunder map (I recognize playing MAP02 before and that it was a pain in the ass, and looking at the further ones, they look even worse) but this one is at a reasonable svelte 127 monsters. The first fight is a good one - the only real threat is the AV, and it's a bit of game of cat-and-mouse to take him out while avoiding the hell knights and revenants (who will also happily kill themselves). It's a good exploration of mechanics, especially making sure to not shoot the AV if he's in the middle of attacking a monster since he'll flip to targeting the player mid-blast.

The wave of imps is pure drudgery though - there's plenty of ammo, and an easy choke point on the stairs, so its just slowly plinking your way through 60 imps one shell at a time. The next few fights are a good escalation, nothing too difficult to handle. Mainly just being able to take out the AVs first, then wipe up the remainders. Plenty of chances for infighting. The one at the end is a bit difficult since the Viles get the chance to resurrect some foes, but nothing too hard. I ignored all the arachnatrons outside, they seem to just be there to lure lazy (or deaf?) players into letting the Viles have more time.

One thing I do think Sunder excels at is aesthetics. I've often complained about maps that use too many colors all at once, and I think this map is a very good example of what I think is how to do it: there's one vivid color (the green slime and rock outdoors), one pale color (the green brick) and one dark accent color (the metal). There's also a good level of detailing, adding enough to spruce up the room without getting in the way. The main room, for example, is just a box with two pillars in the middle and a staircase to the side, but by adding detail to the walls (the slimefall windows), ceiling, and curved staircases, it looks really nice.

[ella guro]

i was gonna attempt to join in on this, but Sunder is probably just too much for me to handle right now. good luck to those who venture forth! i will check out Obsidian's maps though. maybe i'll join in on the 15th when all of that starts.

[NuMetalManiak]

dobu gabu maru said:

Yeah, Obsidian has it right, we start posting about CtE on May 15th so we don't interlap comments about each of the wads Inkie.

that was me who said it :).

BTW, is the music in MAP01 of Sunder the same as in Descent Level 3, or a different version of it?

[Demon of the Well]

Ah, Sunder. While the slaughter playstyle seemingly remains somewhat controversial, there's no denying that this WAD has managed to capture the imagination of great swaths of Doomers. To be honest, I reckon its enduring interest probably has more to do with its aesthetics than its gameplay, but I would cordially invite those who think something like this is simply undoable for everyone but godlike players to use some savegames and give a few of the maps a try. It's true that Sunder is quite difficult as a whole, but not as consistently inaccessible as one might think; many of the marquee fights are surprisingly manageable with a sound strategy--it's not just borderline-ESP twitch skill all the time. A lot of the real difficulty is that many of the maps are very lengthy, and so even if you play well for 20-30 minutes straight, there's always a risk you'll blow it at the end, and then have to climb the mountain all over, which can quickly get exhausting. Well, that's if you try to one-shot it or record a demo, of course! Playing more casually, it's a much less stressful experience. Incidentally, Insane_Gazebo made a pretty good effort at keeping the combat scenarios varying from map to map, so just because one of them bugs the hell out of you (and there are a couple I'm not so fond of, too) doesn't necessarily mean the next one will. Anyway, without further ado...

Map 01 -- Python - 213% Kills / No secrets
A fairly simple map 01 that feels a bit abrupt somehow, but it has enough personality between its visuals and its last fight to get the job done. The setting is a grimy cinderblock bunker sunk in a venomous veridian crater into which flow a number of massive toxic rivers. It is a most pernicious and uninviting landscape that gives the impression that just being in it is having some deleterious effect on one's life expectancy; the blasted trees silhouetted against the glowering sky are the only signs of life. One suspects that the crater may not be natural....but of course, I'm rambling here. In a way, though, this is a salient point to make about Sunder (and one that I and others will probably keep making over the duration); how visually striking the mapset is--a function of scale, color, texture selection, its hardwrought chunky shapes, etc.--cannot be understated, and you just might find that this power to create immersive settings is what really keeps you going even if the action is grinding you into the dust. It isn't utterly spotless--the textures are noticeably aligned differently on some of the walls that open--but for the most part very effective. One gripe I do have, though, is that I don't really like the music selection (not the tune itself, but just how it fits with the map), which is an issue I have with a lot of Sunder. Probably just me, though.

Anyway, Python presents a series of very discrete fights in its main building, with a little jaunt outside for some fresh, cancer-inducing air as a sort of built-in intermission (another thing Sunder is good about including). Magnus mentioned that the opening fight with the arch-vile and his retinue is a good primer on the former's AI mechanics; I agree, and it seems to me that the whole map has been framed as a sample platter of the types of scenarios we're going to see and techniques we're going to need to use again later on. There's the vile waltz, the horde of imps that needs to be efficiently beat back lest it smother you, the cyberdemon which is best co-opted into serving as a living weapon (incidentally, I suggest leaving him alive until the end if you're able--something I didn't do this time, which led to my kill score being what it was), the outdoor jaunt which sees fire coming from great distances, and then the ghoulish vile-vulture scenario at the end.

The unifying thread through most of this is that there's not a huge amount of space for dealing with most of these fights (the outdoor section excepted, of course); in actuality, there's plenty of room, but if you're not used to this kind of thing it probably seems pretty demanding. Of course, many of the later maps will give us a lot more space to move, but of course, they'll often have dozens of times the monsters in them, as well. As Dobu observes, there's a lot of ammo here, and if you play efficiently you won't need a whole lot of it. I myself did NOT play efficiently this time around; I spent way too much time outside, gawking at the scenery and futzing about with the spiderbabies, and as a result, I ended up having to recorpse-ify most of what I'd left cooling on the floor when I first went outside (if the cyber had still been alive he could've helped me clear the monster clog at the door), several times over in a few cases, which took all of my rockets and a lot of shells. While I certainly could've handled this more gracefully, I'm kind of glad it went this way, since it underscores the point that for the most part Sunder doesn't demand you play every encounter in one specific way, and outside of a few rough spots is pretty well-balanced for taking different approaches into account.

Anyway, it's an enjoyable map. A little bit choppy in terms of flow, maybe (although you can remedy that to some degree by rushing), but since it's kind of a tutorial map of sorts it almost stands to reason.

[Cynical]

I'd like to second what DotW said about not being too intimidated by Sunder, and going at it with some saves. It's a rather inconsistent bunch of levels in my opinion, and despite being the best known slaughter wad I'd say it's certainly not the best (that honor goes to Combat Shock 2, by a mile), but most of it is surprisingly approachable if you've played Hell Revealed or Kama Sutra, and there's some maps in here you don't want to miss; in particular, Grinder, Pale Monument, and Hive Mother.

[mouldy]

Woo Sunder! I've started this wad a number of times but don't think I ever finished it. I'd agree with others that its worth having a go for the sheer spectacle of it, just save spam away. (although I might end up skipping that platforming one, that's just ridiculous)

Map01 - “Python"

This is probably the only map in the set that I would have a chance of of completing without dying. It sets up a lot of the stock sunder gameplay elements (sequential unfolding arenas with locked-in switch hunts) while keeping the enemy count at sane levels. The start presents an interesting choice of dealing with the monsters or running around them to find more suitable weapons. If you deal with them then you'll have to concentrate on the archvile while leaving the others to hopefully fight amongst themselves. Leaving them to press the switch summons more monsters, which is the eternal dilemma I have in these maps, whether to play it safe and clear out the existing enemies or summon a load more in the hope of more infighting. The safe option is usually grindy while the unsafe option promises a quicker but deadlier progression. In the case of this map I find that leaving the cyber to help clear the final wave is a good idea.

Map02 - “The Burrow"

I love the music on this map. Again we have the starting scenario of facing a bunch big monsters plus archvile with a peashooter. A few various hordes join the fun, there is a diversion in a hellknight colosseum where I quickly leaned to move in a constant circle while facing one way. After that a couple of cybers cause a nuisance, I considered leaving one alive to help with the final fight but it was more hassle than it was worth, so in the end it was just me against the army of revenants. This was the point that I quit the first time I ever played Sunder, it seemed like such a relentless grind killing the endless scrawny skeletons while constantly ducking and diving from their missiles. The supply of rockets soon runs out leaving you to plink away at the boney swarm with SSG. Its not the most interesting battle I have to say, or rather it makes itself a grind by its awkward nature and the lack of resources forcing a methodical extermination. I'm guessing the idea is that they chase you out into the cave system where chaos will take over, but I found it best to horse-shoe around them at the entrance to the building they pour out of. Eventually you are left with pockets of revs trickling out of the building in ones and twos. Maybe I should have kept that cyber after all...

[j4rio]

You might want whole month reserved for sunder, maps take too long to complete so 2 days per map would be more ideal I think.

[Salt-Man Z]

Okay, so I've played the first two maps of Sunder before, but it was only to try out the Russian Overkill weapon mod, and even with that I got brutalized. But I'm willing to give this a go. I'm a casual-playing save-spammer by nature, so the advice given by posters above sounds fine to me.

I'll let y'all in a little secret: I never play UV. (That's a lie; I've recently replayed KDitD, Mordeth, and Aliens TC on UV, and it was great.) But HMP is my default PWAD difficulty. (I played Deus Vult for the first time recently, and had to back down to HNTR, which was still intense.) Anyway, hearing that Sunder basically is only either UV or ITYTD, I've opted for the latter, which I have never used before. It's fun! I've had to rethink my ammo strategy (don't want to grab that box of shells until I'm down to 60) but I don't see how I'd come close to beating these maps without it.

But enough rambling, lets get to Sunder! (As usual: GZDoom, continuous, keyboard-only.)

MAP01: Python
100% across the board.
My typical play style is to jump in headfirst, guns blazing, and this map laughs at that approach. An archvile, a pair of revenants, and a pair of HKs with just a shotgun? Ha ha. Prior to playing this, I had watched a YouTube UV-Max of this map, and made note of the run-around-dodging-everything-and-hitting-switches strategy, and figured that (or something like it) made the most sense, so I went that route. I did have to take out a bunch of imps with the shotgun to get to the stairs, and once I got the RL, I made a beeline for the archie, 'cause I didn't want things to get too out of hand. Once I made it outside and cleaned out the scenery, I found the doorway back inside jam-packed with everything, Cyber included, so I spent a ton of rockets clearing it out. (Thankfully ITYTD makes ammo more or less plentiful.) All around, this was a lot more fun than I expected it to be.

MAP02: The Burrow
100% everything again.
When I played this previously, I got stuck halfway through, so I wasn't entirely sure what to expect. I was actually surprised how well I was able to handle the first half of the map; I didn't die until the HK room, and even in that room I surprised myself by not taking a single hit until I had the room 3/4 clear. (I then proceeded to die 3-4 times.) Eventually it was me and two Cybers doing the RL dance. If I had known what was coming, I might have left them alive, but I'm not sure it would have made a whole lot of difference. What's that, like, 150 revenants? Holy crap, man. They're boiling out of the building and I'm slamming rockets as fast as I can into them, but I still died a couple dozen times fighting them. (At one point, I saved it with 12 health left because, hey, I can avoid getting hit until I find some health, right?) Overall, this map was about making use of the cavern space; running away from the hordes, ducking through tunnels and around pillars, coming up behind the baddies or turning around and taking them on after getting some distance. All those homing rockets, though, that was almost too much. Everything up to that point (and even some of the revvie fight) was fun, though.

[Veinen]

Sunder! I'm excited, I haven't even properly played through the entire thing so here's hoping that I can play casually enough to get myself through. I'll definitely be using saves since I suspect that I can only finish the first two maps in one go with relative ease. The Dreaming Garden has that one nasty fight against a Noble army that I haven't figured out yet, otherwise maybe possible for me without saves. That's where I always get stuck and quit after a while so he first three maps are pretty much my experiences with Sunder so far. I'm pretty confident that the Club "duties" will help me over that bump heh. I'm not even a very good slaughter player but for some reason I really love slaughtermaps so it's high time I get this modern classic the attention it deserves. Anyways,

Map01: Python - 8:32 - 161% kills

This is a pretty accessible opener in my opinion, a soft landing I might say. It's definitely an introductory map of a sorts and shows the player what you should expect if you dare embark the journey through Sunder. That is, large hordes in smallish spaces, a lot of Arch-Viles and even more switches. It also tells a little bit what you should expect from the mapset visually; which is greatness all the way through. Sunder is maybe a mapset that I haven't properly played but I definitely recognize from the demos I've watched on youtube.

It's exactly like mouldy says, how you approach the fights makes a huge difference regarding difficulty in this map. The fast way is the tough way and as much as I'd like to play it like j4rio does in his demo, it's just not worth it considering the amount of retries I'd have to take to get through. So instead I took my time, killed the Archie before launching the Imps, killed the Imps before opening the next area and so on, and suddenly it's not that hard of a map at all. My slow strategies end after the third switch for a while though, after which I just ignore everything and go for the RL to get the most out of the Cyberdemon's gunning abilities. Hardly matters how many foes the AVs resurrect if the Cyber is guarding the doorway since you can easily lure the Cyber to slaughter almost everything else around, including the Archies. The Arachs around the perimeter of the fortress are kind of goofy but I suppose it is like someone said that they are just a means to slow the player down enough so that the Archies can do their magic inside.

An enjoyable and an accesible start to the mapset. Even with my slower and safer tactics it didn't feel very grindy at all because you still have to move and pay attention if you wish to survive.

Map02: The Burrow - 13:04 - 114% kills

The comfortable radioactive pit is switched to a rocky hellhole as the colour of the map changes from green to red. This is probably one of the least impressive looking maps in Sunder but it still manages to be pretty interesting. The two fortresses that break the redness look very nice outwards, especially the Rev one, and not out of place at all. The flesh curve is kind of weird but it does give the map some extra variety.

As for the gameplay, well it starts suspiciously similarly to map01. There's an AV with his back turned and a bunch of other monsters for support, now a little more threatening combination in my opinion and the environment is a little more advantagous for the Arch-Vile as well. Again I dispatched the lone Archie before releasing anything else although in here it's perhaps not even that necessary since you can easily outmaneuver the Pinkies and leave everything behind. And that's what you want to do here, leave everything behind, since there will be a Cyber there and he will once again be your best weapon. The Revs in the flesh curve are a speedbump at best and the HK set piece, while a pretty nicely crafted and an interesting fight, is also rather easy if you play it right. I don't think I took a single hit in that room either heh. The finale is tougher though, so many Revenants that even if you manage to contain them inside the building for a bit, it's very likely that at some point you'll get hit by a rocket or two and back a little, and that's when they'll start pouring out. But if you managed to thin the herd enough it doesn't really matter if some of them come out since there are ways to deal with them in the outside too. I just circled (or half-circled I suppose) them in the yard which works if it's a moderate group that storms out of the doors. There's room to backtrack to the previous areas for the "safest way" or if you get completely overwhelmed so the challenge in that battle again somewhat depends on the players style of play.

Overall another good map and at least for me personally not overwhelmingly challenging. Now I have played this map a few times and know the "right" strategies so that obviously helps a lot. This is where things get problematic for me too so I doubt I'll fare as good from the next map onwards.

[MajorRawne]

What the hell's Countdown to Extinction?

* Downloads *

[dobu gabu maru]

j4rio said:

You might want whole month reserved for sunder, maps take too long to complete so 2 days per map would be more ideal I think.

I figure people can play into the days meant for CtE since that's short enough that it won't be hard to catch up, but yeah I hope we'll be able to keep up pace as the monster count rises.

Also, good to see you trying this Salt Man Z, hopefully it won't overwhelm ya.

MAP02: Our second battle sees us deep beneath the earth, with plenty more revenants on our tail. As Veinen noted the opening encounter is similar in style to MAP01’s (an AV and his minions vs. you and your shotgun), but it’s a bit tenser with sergeants and mancubii mucking things up, along with the twin pillars being further apart to your detriment. After that it’s not too bothersome, although I kept trying to rush the double AV/cyber fight which led to a lot of reckless deaths. Even the big revenant college dorm parade might seem intimidating at first but as long as you play it mindfully there’s enough ammo to barbecue the boney boys (though it can be aggravating to try and tease them from their two cubbies they like to swarm in, and a lot of reckless deaths were the result of this).

A neat, semi-chaotic map, although in some ways it’s missing much of Gazebo’s fantastic detailing and elaborate setpieces (not to say it’s ugly, but it feels like a cavern map that perhaps others would design).

[Magnusblitz]

MAP02: The Burrow
100% kills, no secrets

As others have said, this does play pretty similarly to MAP01, so if you played that you have a nice tutorial map for this one. This map definitely isn't as bad as I remember, I think mainly due to being more patient this time around. I tend to like to run from huge swarms of monsters or cause infighting; two things which don't really work on this map. Instead, best to take each encounter as it comes.

The start is almost a copy of Python, with the AV, a small retinue, a single shotgun and two columns for cover. Instead of a swarm of imps, its a swarm of demons (which is also abuseable using the staircase and bad monster pathing). Like Salt-Man Z (same one as the Allspark? If so, small world) I almost completed the Hell Knight room on my first try, died, then died horribly the next 3-4 times before finally completing it. Then a "vile-vulture" battle as Demon calls it, before moving onto the last room. This part is the one that kinda bugs me, as its just drudgery to slowly blast through the huge swarm of revenants. The easiest way to handle it is simply to retreat back to the "mouth" cave, jump the gap and then fire rockets from safety, dodging around the 90-degree turn when needed. It's also longer than it needs to be due to lack of rocket ammo and the propensity for the revenants to clump up, especially inside the original building's sides.

Looks-wise, yeah, this is probably the weakest map in the set. It's still got the good color design, though the general darkness of the map tends to make it look washed-out. And I really like the "mouth" cave, but the rest is somewhat bland browns and red rock caves that seem a bit generic (especially after playing Scythe recently).

[Salt-Man Z]

Magnusblitz said:

Salt-Man Z (same one as the Allspark? If so, small world)

Indeed! :)

[Steve D]

Oh, bloody fucking hell! It's all Salt-Man Z's fault, what with him playing the maps continuous on ITYTD, which is how I managed to deal with Stardate 20x6, and a rather rewarding experience it was. So because of this Salt-Man guy, I just finished the first 2 Sunder maps in one sitting. I'm not quite as big a wimp as I thought I was! ;D

So, continuous, ITYTD, Risen3D, keyboard only, frequent fucking saves!

Map01 – Python – Kills – 202, Items – 0, Secrets – 0. Time – 19:25. End health – 59, Armor – 84. Death Count – 10

A good-looking map, not terribly fun for me thanks to how long it takes to kill the meat, but after I finally killed the first Archie, which took me 5 or so deaths to accomplish, the map was relatively easy, though a Death Count of 10 is usually – on UV – my marker for a tough map. Maybe someday I’ll play this on UV, but not today. ;D

I was lucky to be playing on ITYTD, since otherwise I wouldn’t have had the ammo to kill the Archie-generated army that ballooned once the little guys killed Herr Cyb. I was dancing around at the doorway – from outside, natch – to keep the infights going, when I noticed that there were 2 Archies and I couldn’t hear the Cyb. I died on my first attempt to storm the door, after bulling my way inside. On the next attempt, I unleashed a rocket shower against the horde and killed them faster than the Archies could provide triage, then leaped through to discover only 2 Archies, 3 Revvies and four HKs inside. As usual, I became an Archie-seeking missile and dusted them off, followed by the Revvies, and some clean-up SSG work against the HKs.

Music track was very good. I did feel a sense of accomplishment. All is well with the world.

Map02 – The Burrow – Kills – 105, Items – 100, Secret – 0. Time – 35:12. End Health – 100, Armor – 0. Death Count – 7

Much to my surprise, I actually liked this map. I also liked its looks better than other reviewers. Maybe that’s because I still haven’t played a lot of cavern maps, but to me, this is well-detailed with great use of light and shadow, and the intestine tunnel is pretty damned cool.

The music track is phenomenal, and IIRC, some YouTube commenter said it’s from the old FPS Blood.

Jumping down with RL in hand from the last map, I successfully dispatched Archie but managed to get killed by Revvies. On the second try, I killed Archie even faster, got some infights between Revvies and Mancs, and went all the way to the Chaingunners before getting killed again when Pinkies hemmed me in from behind while the bald jagoffs ventilated my twitching body. Got hemmed-in again by just Pinkies and killed on the next try before reaching the Chaingunners again with rocket in hand and blasting through. After that, it became a game of “Run, jagoff, run!” It was the only thing I could do with all that meat, fireballs and homing rockets everywhere.

The action calmed somewhat in the Hell Knight Room, where the only damage I took for most of it was my own rocket splash. Embarrassingly, I was finally hit by an HK up on the platforms. I was truly ashamed of myself for that. I also managed to die once by Cyberdemon, another embarrassment since I had so much space and the upper, turreted Cyb wasn’t very dangerous, but because I thought about him, I looked once and made the wrong move, allowing the ground Cyb to feed me a rocket sandwich.

I’m pretty sure I only died 3 times fighting the Revvie swarm, including twice inside their fortress. The only way I could deal with them was to draw them out, usually running to the intestine tunnel, or as some call it, the mouth tunnel, so I could rocket them across the gap. Then I’d go up the back way and rinse, repeat. Although this battle looked very sloggy on YouTube, I’m so much worse than that player that for me it was spine-tingling excitement as I dodged blizzards of rockets and ran shrieking through the caverns. Of course, while I did in fact dodge blizzards of rockets, I was hit by quite a few as well, but managed to survive, usually, thanks to the magic of ITYTD.

The Zerk at the end made me feel better, because it indicated that some thought was given to continuous players. Looks like Insane_Gazebo wanted to fuel us up before the next map.

All in all, I thought this was really good. The main issue I had was with Risen3D, which for some reason is now insisting on using custom sounds for the monsters. Aside from me not liking these sounds, this caused audio glitches when large numbers of Revvies were around, as the app couldn’t seem to handle the Revvies and music at the same time. I’d switch to GZDoom, except that I know it’s going to chug when the action’s intense.

[Obsidian]

SteveD said:

The music track is phenomenal, and IIRC, some YouTube commenter said it’s from the old FPS Blood.

Uhh, stop me if I'm wrong about this, but isn't the track for MAP02 "Agony Rhapsody" from MAP06 of TNT: Evilution?

[tourniquet]

Your right it's from TNT, Sunder's Map 4 uses a track from Blood.

[Salt-Man Z]

SteveD said:

It's all Salt-Man Z's fault, what with him playing the maps continuous on ITYTD, which is how I managed to deal with Stardate 20x6, and a rather rewarding experience it was.

That's fine, I'll take the blame. :) I actually did 20X6 on HMP (though I've got a couple maps left) and it was brutal, but manageable. Amazing wad.

SteveD also said:

The Zerk at the end made me feel better, because it indicated that some thought was given to continuous players. Looks like Insane_Gazebo wanted to fuel us up before the next map.

Yeah, I was soooo happy to see that. I was honestly worried, as I had I think under 30 health left once I dispatched the last of the revvies. So kudos to the author for that.

SteveD also said:

I’d switch to GZDoom, except that I know it’s going to chug when the action’s intense.

Is it really that bad? I know I've heard about ZDoom/GZDoom slowdowns on big, busy maps, but I've yet to experience such a thing. I mean, I just played through Deus Vult for the first time a couple weeks ago, and didn't notice any issues. I am running Win7 on a brand new machine, so I don't know how much that factors into it, but I'd hate to have to switch ports mid-wad.

[Steve D]

@Obsidian and Tourniquet - thanks for clearing that up. Wonder why Insane_Gazebo listed the copyright for that as "?????" since he presumably knew where it came from. Funny thing, I recently played a bunch of the early maps in Evilution, but maybe missed that one. ;D