The DWmegawad Club plays: Sunder & Countdown to Extinction

[Salt-Man Z]

Cynical said:

Wow, participation for this one sure is dying off...

I do plan on getting back to this. Just taking a couple days off to let my anger at MAP05 simmer down (and also play through Epic 1 and try out some HocusDoom—which is amazing, by the way, thanks for asking.) I plan on getting back into Sunder this weekend, and I figure the CtE levels will be short enough that I can work them in around Sunder saves.

[dobu gabu maru]

I too would like to thank Demon of the Well for his ornate observations on many of Sunder's locales. I think it's easy just to look at these maps and be so awe-struck at times that all you write is "it looks really good", that I'm glad we have someone giving us some interesting flavor text to these nettlesome adventures.

MAP09: I was looking forward to playing this map the most when we first set out to play Sunder, as I think the theme of a enormous, dank, metallic prison-like complex is very alluring. I played the early incarnation of this in Macabre although that was largely impossible due to a lack of munitions, but I really dug the setting and wanted to see how its big brother would hold up.

But man, this map. The first half has you fighting enemies both above and below you constantly, and vertical combat is far from Doom’s gameplay strengths. There’s just a ton of awkward corner camping and light movement, as it’s very easy to just fly off the platforms down to your end, especially when you're strafing things as lethal as the cyber rockets. When the latter half returns to conventional combat inside interesting arenas, it’s spoiled by the presence of dual invul spheres, making the encounters more like a dirty puzzle game of "grab the invul and BFG spam!". The last arena at least demands you move around more, but it becomes such a slog once the masterminds and AVs are dead, as you circle about and use the block monster lines to your advantage. That and Cynical is dead on with the bumpiness near the invuls, as that killed me a couple times when I needed to grab it in the nick of time.

I really enjoy the atmosphere here (might be visually my favorite of the wad, this or Obsidian Nightmare), but the gameplay was just terribly monotonous.

[j4rio]

Demonologist said:
offering long monotonous grind combined with cramped dickishness and extremely annoying platforming parts.

A sincere question - what the hell is a grind? So far the one and only time I've ever heard that term was in holyhell where it was basically implying an encounter in which you need to take out enormous amounts of monsters without much pressure put on player and almost no height variation present which devolves into a bore. Outside of map 10's HK army there really isn't much of a "grind" unless you forcibly create one yourself, although I can't think of many possible instances anyway. And how the hell does an author of realm of demonology mind grind and cramped dickishness?

Demonologist said:
I'll join those who think that Sunder's dreaded aura is pretty much undeserved. Play TimeOfdeath's maps or something like that, and I can guarantee you that you'll get your ass kicked much more often. Heck, Deus Vult 2 is still more demanding in parts than this, so what's that crushingly difficult you're talking about?

I think by the time sunder came out, nothing was as overwhelmingly difficult to pull off in a single go as sunder. It's on par with death-destiny maps played on UV and a lot more harsh than Alm's extreme stuff. Vast majority of ToD's stuff until his rather late maps were a breeze if you could use BFG at least halfdecently in comparision to sunder, but I think they are too diffirent for a sufficient comparision.

Demonologist said:
Map08 - “Pale Monument"
I'll part ways with the reviewers of this map above me and say that it's awful look-wise, the color- and texture choices are eye-plucking, and design is just bizarre. Not in a good way. Gameplay is just a prolonged grind all over the place. Cacovasion was an interesting part, and the final fight isn't bad either, but everything before and between these two is meh.

Absolutely disagree. I feel like unless any kind of map has a mock2 sort of design, arguments about color and texture choices is like arguing that green is better than blue, or something. You get the point. A grind? Nah, there really isn't almost any instance of grind. You always get a multi-vectorial ambushes and never simply stand and shoot, ever. Maybe except fight before final room, but that's about it.





Meanwhile, map 7. This map is a complete bitch to pull off in a single go - https://www.mediafire.com/?cksmyrgj45mx1bp

[Demonologist]

Cynical said:

Though if you meant "there are individual fights in DVII that are harder than any individual fights in Sunder other than the starts of Grinder or Obsidian Nightmare", I'd certainly agree with that.

Yep, that's the point.
I do agree about Grinder, but what's so difficult with Obsidian Nightmare's start? Just look around to figure out how everything works and remember that curves on the ground are your allies. Here's a short demo that demonstrates my way to reach the safespot, from there it's just the routine task of provoking infights (mainly cyb vs everything kind of thing) and clearing all the ledges. Slow if compared to Okuplok's route, but more safe and reliable. Not that I was in haste, mind you, my completion time for this map was ~1 hour.

[Demonologist]

j4rio said:

A sincere question - what the hell is a grind? So far the one and only time I've ever heard that term was in holyhell where it was basically implying an encounter in which you need to take out enormous amounts of monsters without much pressure put on player and almost no height variation present which devolves into a bore. Outside of map 10's HK army there really isn't much of a "grind" unless you forcibly create one yourself, although I can't think of many possible instances anyway. And how the hell does an author of realm of demonology mind grind and cramped dickishness?

Switching to hypocrite hunting, are we? Rod was by no means ideal, and I've always been itching to improve something in my maps while looking back at them. A perfectionist's curse, I guess. But at the same time, it was never meant to be a super-hard mapset, just a thing I made for personal amusement and wanted to pull off faster because it started to steal too much time.
Your definition of grind is accurate (though height variation is barely an issue here, you may be equally bored with clearing 3-4 levels of foes, right?), and I honestly don't understand what you're trying to prove. Imp army that you just bfg spam in map12; whole map11; rev-hk-baron area in map14; one more imp arena in map13; map10 was already mentioned by you. These are some examples. No offence, but I'm not surprised you're okay with things like that after your words of praise for map21 of ngmvmt1, the one where monsters act more like an annoying factor rather than a fun-creating one. Anyway, this all comes down to tastes, so I'm totally cool with your attitude. Let's just gib them imps.

j4rio said:

I think by the time sunder came out, nothing was as overwhelmingly difficult to pull off in a single go as sunder. It's on par with death-destiny maps played on UV and a lot more harsh than Alm's extreme stuff. Vast majority of ToD's stuff until his rather late maps were a breeze if you could use BFG at least halfdecently in comparision to sunder, but I think they are too diffirent for a sufficient comparision.

The fact is, Sunder's reputation follows it even still. After all these years.
Maybe it's just me, but DD's maps hit me much more painfully. No Chance is still unmatched.

j4rio said:

Absolutely disagree. I feel like unless any kind of map has a mock2 sort of design, arguments about color and texture choices is like arguing that green is better than blue, or something. You get the point. A grind? Nah, there really isn't almost any instance of grind. You always get a multi-vectorial ambushes and never simply stand and shoot, ever. Maybe except fight before final room, but that's about it.

As you wish.
Opinions are opinions, right? I don't force mine, so if anyone disagrees - that's fine.

[Memfis]

You know, it's pretty amusing to read these megawad club threads and see people mercilessly bash the wads I consider godly and perfect. :) That must be the best thing about the club, before it there weren't really many opportunities for people to criticize the classics and other notable wads.

[Veinen]

Still here as well, just busy with other stuff and my doom quota the past few days has been filled with desperate demo recording attempts. That said:

Map07: Hollow Icon - 28:43 - 100% kills

Now this was an excellent map. "Looks really good" - Veinen regarding every Sunder map, and the spaciousness was vey much welcome after Grinders tight quarters. Somewhat due to the larger areas the map is miles easier as well, almost like a breather map regarding difficulty like DotW said. The BFG sure helps too and it sure makes the megaslaughters that much more fun. Yeah, that's exactly what this map was: REALLY fucking fun. Just loved the combat here from start to finish. The later fights are huge but there are a lot of cannon fodder filler baddies that you can cut through with the BFG at will.

Starts off with a series of smaller fights, none of them very hard or require a specific strategy to complete. I tried to stir infights in the very fist area which lead to some fails but after going for a more direct approach I breezed through the rest of the "first" part of the map in one go. About five minutes in shit starts to get real in a big way. Each of the three fights start the same way, you have the opportunity to scout the landscape for strategies and collect ammo and health before initiating combat. In the first one the main obstacles are the multiple Cybers and a few strategically placed Archies. Took me a few tries to make out how everything works but wasn't much of a problem all things considered. My main strategy in this one and in the second one was pretty much to kill as few as possible myself. The second one is a little harder because of the myriad of Mancubi that spill into the ground area from the ledge and since I had to brute force through the enemy lines a couple of times to not get totally flanked. ALL hell breaks loose in the finale but it's really not very difficult of a battle either. I don't even remember my strategy here heh, just ran around like a headless chicken blasting BFG-shots to get through walls of Pinkies and Imps. Worked though since I got through most of it on my first attempt. I do remember noticing the massive cloud of PEs from the other side of the arena at one point of the battle and then just pushing through everything to get there asap heh.

[j4rio]

Switching to hypocrite hunting, are we?

No, I'm genuinely curious.

Well, I think height variation matters a lot when defining "grind". If they are all in front of you then yeah, grind, but if there are separated groups on multiple disconnected platforms, then you basically get something like second to last map 7 fight.

I honestly don't understand what you're trying to prove.

Nothing. You don't always need to prove something when you argue.

Imp army that you just bfg spam in map12

A single depletition of BFG from 600 to 0 cells takes, like, 15 seconds? Is that really considerable as grindy? I wouldn't say a word if you restocked around 6-7 times but... eh.

whole map11

Got me there. I've never played map 11 in my life as Gazebo kept saying he's doing a lot of overhauls with encounters which never happenned.

rev-hk-baron area in map14; one more imp arena in map13

I honestly don't recall those. Long time since I tried 13-14 as well.

The fact is, Sunder's reputation follows it even still. After all these years.

It's deserved, if you ask me.

[Steve D]

Cynical said:

Wow, participation for this one sure is dying off...

I have good excuses. First, I do a lot of CPU-intensive paid work on my computer, and I can't do that and play Doom at the same time, and since the work often pushes towards midnight, I have very little time to spare. Second, despite being overscheduled, I decided to join Mayhem2048 and be the resident playtester. Started off easy, then all of a sudden it's raining maps and I've played I think 8 so far and with revisions to playtest now. And on top of that I have other playtests on the side . . . ahem. ;D And then there's my own maps to work on. Add it all up, and I still haven't even started Map03! ;D

I'm sure no one was interested in all that whining, but I thought I'd blather it out anyway.

I will get back to Sunder, but TBH, I'm really surprised we haven't seen more of the slaughter contingent jumping in to sound off on this puppy.

[Demonologist]

j4rio said:

If they are all in front of you then yeah, grind, but if there are separated groups on multiple disconnected platforms, then you basically get something like second to last map 7 fight.

Not always like that. Everything depends on execution though.

j4rio said:

You don't always need to prove something when you argue.

I hear ya. That sums it all up.

j4rio said:

A single depletition of BFG from 600 to 0 cells takes, like, 15 seconds? Is that really considerable as grindy? I wouldn't say a word if you restocked around 6-7 times but... eh.

I'd like to watch how you evaporize, say, 1.5k of imps in 15 seconds. I think it took a bit more time in your demo.

j4rio said:

It's deserved, if you ask me.

It's not on the top of the food chain nowadays, anyway. I'm not saying it's easy and just a walk in the park, but there are some things that may kick your arse in a much more brutal way. *cough* Anathema *cough*
So, the point is - it's rargely overrated when people say about its unmatched difficulty and perfect combat scenarios. But hands down it's still pretty damn impressive as an artistic work, I'm not going to deny that.

[Memfis]

I think j4rio should play map03 from this. :)

[j4rio]

Memfis said:

I think j4rio should play map03 from this. :)

I regret nothing.

[Ribbiks]

my skill/patience is clearly not enough to beat many more of these in one go. Here's some shitty demos though:

https://www.mediafire.com/?ib8rsaespee4fg5

map04: couple deaths, I ultimately give up after failing hard at the platforming
map05: beat after 1 death, yay.
map06: jesus christ. so many deaths in the first room, the included demo is the furthest I've gotten, died out of stupidity because cybs are placed way too fucking awkwardly.
map07: skipped, I like this map but spent more than enough time with it recording my uv-max for it awhile back.
map08: got to the last room on my first attempt, died because I suck.



commentary:

map06:

needs no introduction, the start of this is probably the most chaotic encounter in the entirety of sunder. Everything after the 3-vile ambush is pretty bleh, camping corridors while chipping away at awkwardly placed boss monsters. This feels like a very early gazebo map, similar to map09. aka lots of steep height variation and comically dense ledges of enemies, extremely sloppy gameplay. Also the visuals are kind of hideous.


map07:

my second favorite map in the set. Extremely well balanced imo: a surplus of ammo if you play super conservatively, but more than enough to clear out baddies quickly during a max-run. Great aesthetics, fun traps, last 2 rooms are very daunting, but very consistently beatable with the right maneuvering. A+.


map08:

I never tried playing this one "normally", so when I decided to play safely/slowly, camping various safe areas, I was surprised at how much easier this map was compared to how I remembered it. I would've nailed it on my first try if I hadn't sucked so hard in the last room. Overall there's an absurd amount of health in this map, lots of forgiveness for small mistakes. I do wonder though wtf was gazebo thinking with that ledge full of barons with the spider-mastermind, royally pointless and tedious enemies. Very novel visual theme, beautiful structures.

[Demon of the Well]

Map 08 -- Pale Monument - 99% Kills / No secrets
A striking setting even by the generally high standards of the WAD, this, with a genuinely fascinating juxtaposition of flesh, metal, stucco, and plaster textures. I even like the music selection in this one! While many of the Sunder maps are characterized by a very stark, brutalist architectural style that carries a sense of unfeeling, crushing pressure, there is a certain stately grandeur to the sweep and scale of the majestic terraces and airy courtyards found here. Its strangely dignified impression is redolent of a once enlightened civilization that has become a nightmarish reflection of its former self. While only throngs of terrible creatures roam the streets now, the citizenry has hardly departed; their flesh and sinew collectively harvested, sloughed, liquified, and then reformed and repurposed as construction materiel through some unimaginably powerful necromantic magic. While the city has become a great monument to death, ironically it still appears to 'live'--its aqueducts and reflecting pools brim crimson with an endless torrent of blood and bile, byproducts of the now undying remains of those compelled to make the ultimate sacrifice in the interest of 'civic renovation.'

I'm inclined to agree with Cynical that this is the best map in the current iteration of Sunder....of all the maps I could've picked, if you'd told me it'd be the one without any arch-viles in it I'd probably have laughed, but so it goes. Anyway, apart from being fascinating thematically/aesthetically, I feel like this one does a lot of things right/better than several of the other maps in the set. The first of these is layout; Gazebo's 'terraced' construction style really comes into its own here. However visually striking they might be, a lot of Sunder's marquee areas essentially involve discrete, giant boxes that the player moves about at floor level while trying to avoid being hemmed in around the edges by hellspawn; a lot of the vertical scale is often relevant mainly in a visual sense. In this map, however, the stacking/arrangement of the various play areas is much more dense and nuanced--later areas overlook earlier ones, side passages at ground level wrap around to expansive vantages on main areas at higher levels, many areas can be accessed from several different points (especially once the little tele-booth convention reappears in the big caco fight), and only in the final fight is the player ever decisively sealed into an area. Of course, the areas still remain generally grandiose in scale (they have to be to accommodate all of the monsters); the combination of this expansiveness with this more intricately packed layout amounts to a map that is not only eminently navigable as far as tactics are concerned, but also simply fun to move around in, a huge contrast with map 06.

This more open flow brings me to the issue of the map's pacing: contrast it with something like map 07, which starts smallscale (almost to the point of being 'ordinary' in terms of monster density/placement style) and ends in an epic battle, upping the ante exponentially in each successive fight and emphasizing this escalation by employing very stark breaks between fights. 'Pale Monument' has a similar overall progression in intensity/scale, but I feel like its different stages segue into one another much more smoothly and organically than those of map 07. The largest fights are mostly not necessarily cordoned off from one another--for example, if you push through the map, you can trigger the first teleporting caco/noble/imp waves before having cleared out the starting area; later on, you can trigger the gigantic cacoclusterfuck in the monument square, and, if you push through here as well, move past it into the legions of enemies into the territory beyond, all the way up to the beginning of the switch sequence which ultimately opens the inner sanctum. Granted, a certain degree of this fluidity is dependent at the practical level on whether or not you're playing with infinitely-tall actors disabled (and actually doing what I described above is tantamount to suicide either way), but in principle this map's a lot more open than many of the others, and for this reason and in concert with the more vertically elaborated layout, offers more variety and flexibility in approaches (even if most of them are dependent on map knowledge, but that's hardly unusual).

Of course, this relative openness shouldn't be taken as suggesting that the combat is all essentially incidental. The absolute highlight fight is of course the humongous cacoswarm; it's so vast that you simply aren't going to be able to ignore it (and it can easily reduce even teams of cyberdemons into nasty stains on the floor in short order), and so insistent that you simply aren't going to be able to just deal with it in a single engagement. No, it's such an event that it often doesn't even play like a single huge fight per se but more like a series of large themed fights that punctuate other pieces of action in the area (e.g. vs. the mancubi/revenant hordes later on); the best way to make dents in it are to make passes through it with the BFG, and do some rocket-camping in a few choice places (such as the BFG alcove). But, once again, the sheer number of tomatoes that need to be juiced with extreme prejudice means that you can't just camp out in one place and hope to survive--you have to get out there and move around, chipping at the swarm from different places until you finally start to turn the tide. I can see where some find how prolonged the overall encounter can be to be a tedious chore, but I think it's brilliant, especially since it can vary so much depending on how the cacos end up pathing through the level. The final battle in the sealed chamber is a fitting climax but not really so complex a proposition; like many of the fights in this style of WAD, winning is in many ways chiefly dependent on the player knowing when NOT to pull the trigger, so that there's always enough juice left in the BFG to let you grab the edge and keep moving just as the giant horde is about to close the seam.

Anyway, as my unusually excessive degree of windbaggery no doubt suggets, I think this is a really compelling map. It's not flawless-- its more elaborate layout means that it's more prone to a variety of simulation/Boomfails in many places, there's still some asinine monster placement in a couple of places (like the spiderdemon/baron ledge Ribbiks mentioned, or some of the cyberdemons which end up entirely hemmed in/soon clawed to death by little guys), and sometimes not all of the monsters make it to the party (my kill count at the end was 2,652/2,653 because one enemy didn't make it out of his closet--I imagine this would induce acts of terrorism in a demo-recording setting). I also wish that Gazebo had done more with the stained mansion plaster that shows up near the end of the map relative to the neutral (and very badly vertically-tiling) stucco that dominates in many areas. All in all, though, I think it's great. And Insane_Gazebo, on the microscopic chance you're reading this and still seriously intend on finishing/finalizing Sunder, please put a lone arch-vile in front of the exit pit. Make a storyteller out of me!

[Cynical]

Demonologist said:

Yep, that's the point.
I do agree about Grinder, but what's so difficult with Obsidian Nightmare's start? Just look around to figure out how everything works and remember that curves on the ground are your allies. Here's a short demo that demonstrates my way to reach the safespot, from there it's just the routine task of provoking infights (mainly cyb vs everything kind of thing) and clearing all the ledges. Slow if compared to Okuplok's route, but more safe and reliable. Not that I was in haste, mind you, my completion time for this map was ~1 hour.

That route isn't even close to consistent; you have to get lucky with the monster behavior on so many occasions.

First off, the Mancubus on the left has to decide that he's not going to block the exit to the tunnel. If he does, the barons catch you, you die.

Then, the Mancubus on the right has to die in few enough shots that the Imps can't move too far. If he lasts too long, you can't get through the imps efficiently, you die.

Then, the Nobles have to start fighting with the Arachnotron before the Vile behind you casts his spell. Get unlucky here, the Arachno kills you.

And, finally, you have to get lucky with how aggressive the Vile on the floor feels like being once he sees you. If he decides to chase your ass down, you're done (he doesn't always find himself stuck on the wrong side of that poorly thought-out floor decoration).

[Demonologist]

@ Cynical: Believe it or not, but for me this route works in, say, 9 cases out of 10. Basically, the only thing that may change is how many guts are lost in the process. And I have very tense relationships with lady luck. It's not that bad, really. You can cleanse imps with your ssg with ease in case you're not that successful with manc (and in this demo I wasn't as you can see), and ground AV gets blocked by arach, so keep him alive while clearing the safe spot.

Map10 - “The Hag's Finger"
I can see the rotten apples flying my way, but... I actually like this one. *takes evasion maneuvers* I'll try to elaborate: fisrt, I really dig the aesthetics, the atmosphere, the sense of scope are simply superb, this map is dreadful, and it's just great. Yes, there is that pitiful slog of a fight after the rev wall, but you can actually skip it thanks to easily pressable barred switch. Then - the ugliest thing about this map - is the pole-running sequence. I can say nothing about it, it's just the thing to be endured. But aside from these - there's nothing I could really complain about. The other fights are cool enough to keep me entertained (rev wall was actually fun, blow the bastards up before they overrun you), and the progression is interesting and inspiring. There are indeed things to hate, but there are also things to love. So in the end everything comes down to choosing what has more weight for you.

[Cynical]

I tried running that route for the opening on Obsidian Nightmare, and those were the problems I consistently ran into. The big one is that the Arachnotron can shoot incredibly deeply down the curve into the "safe spot", to the point where you pretty much have to choose whether to be vulnerable to the nobles or the Arachno. Well, that and the second Manc at the start deciding to troll me and block the exit to the Baron tunnel, so as to say "lol, you have to kill 2 Mancs to get out of here now, have fun!"

(Actually, before finishing this post, I went and ran it a few more times, and didn't run into these issues? Weird. Must have been a spate of really terrible luck. Made it to the PE Ambush with no problems, before getting completely destroyed there; I didn't realize they were coming as quickly as they did.)

I actually didn't bother playing The Hag's Finger on this go-through (after The Cage, I wasn't about to play the other two of the terrible three maps that I dread), but I've always had two major problems with it aesthetically:

1. That awful tiling on those door textures. Ugh.
2. The fact that, despite being a climb up a huge tower, Gazebo goes out of his way to give no views that show just how high up you're climbing. This one had some opportunities for some AMAZING vistas, and yet he couldn't find one place to put a window? Really?

[mouldy]

Map10 - “The Hag's Finger"

This wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be. As far as looks go its a fairly drab affair, with the grandiose setting pretty much hidden once you get inside. I had to switch to prboom+ straight away as zdoom slowed to a crawl on my laptop, but beyond the opening scene the action all takes place in self contained areas that only occasionally bleed into one another. What follows is a long chain of arenas, each with a slightly different challenge. Too many for me to remember specifics, though I found some were quite easy to skip once you knew where the switches were, and the only one that came back to haunt me was the one with the pain elementals. That was a major chore to clear up, and a lot of time was wasted in the following room waiting for the last several lost souls to filter in before starting the next battle.

The rest of the fights ranged from fun to interesting to quirky, and the platforming bits were managable with lots of saves. The final battle was curious, I found the best tactic was to just circle around outside the central room for ages, the monsters tend to stay inside and after a few eons enough archviles were killed by stray missiles to start dealing with the crowd myself. Probably not the most exciting method, but the safest. I enjoyed this map, I think it was only let down by the scenery which seemed more functional than aesthetic.

[dobu gabu maru]

MAP10: Going into this, I felt the map was going to be a long one… but it didn’t feel like a marathon like MAP09; the rate and variety at which they come made this much, MUCH better. I found nearly every fight interesting and fun to figure out (barring the arachnatron snooze-fest and super boring HK slog), and even appreciate some aspect of strategy required in the final fight (although I think it was a couple AVs too many). Don’t have much to say besides that as I was generally entertained throughout, and even enjoyed the dulled hues that made up the monolithic building, feeling like I was making real progress as I climbed each floor. Strange that there’s some inescapable non-damaging pits in it though. Definitely a great map that's one of my favorites alongside Hollow Icon.

I also had the added challenge of playing in Zdoom where any time you looked towards the tower it’d drop to like 4 FPS, so I had to always position myself and my battles so I could face away from it. It was a dumb thing to pursue but added a cute little challenge to each arena, and it wasn't grotesquely difficult since many of the battles had enough space that it all came down to patience.

[Demon of the Well]

Map 09 -- The Cage - 108% Kills / No secrets
This seems to be one of Sunder's 'posterchild' maps, along with 'The Furnace' and 'Hive Mother' (with 'Precarious' as the infamous problem child). This fact underscores the assertion that, whatever good or bad things we might say about the gameplay in Sunder as a whole, it's really the WAD's good looks that sell it to a lot of folks. 'The Cage' is really a sight to behold, a high-concept map amongst a gaggle of other high-concept maps from an aesthetic/structural standpoint. Depicted is a complex tangle of elevated paths, causeways, channels, and looming pumping towers, all wrought from cold iron, brooding silently in a crater-lake of blood fed by two great sanguinary rivers. While the name may imply that this giant deathtrap is intended to keep us from escaping, on closer examination the reality seems to be quite the opposite. All of its rabidly-defended chokepoints are seemingly intended to keep intruders out, for the Cage is not really a cage at all, but rather an incubator, its dank heart a blasphemous nursery of sorts where three nascent monstrosities are nourished by a steady swell of lifeblood sustained by the system of pumps and sluiceways comprising the complex's outer reaches. You technically spend most of your time outside trying to get in, and as result nearly every stopping-point is full of screenshot-worthy material; it truly is a beauty.

.....which is ironic, because it really doesn't play all that well. I really don't have very much to add about its various issues that hasn't already been said; suffice to say that for an author who generally makes no bones about being dead-set on seeing that players don't cheese too many of his fights, I_G sure dropped the ball in that regard on this one. I would say it's one of Sunder's easier maps (whether one cheeses the fights or not), and so I've considered that maybe he was just giving the player a break in this one, but other factors in the map seem to contradict this, chiefly the continued presence of switch-sequences that are intended to make the player wait for some predetermined amount of time inside of particular areas before leaving. Some of these I remembered from past plays of the map, some I didn't; suffice to say that if you forget to press one before doing whatever fight it's supposed to force you to do, you end up hanging around like a swinging dick doing nothing while you wait (for minutes, in one particularly egregious case) for the exit to open up. That is, unless you're in one of those areas where there are three switches instead of two, in which case you get the privilege of waiting some more. Thrilling.

Some of the fights work decently well if you decide to play them honorably instead of exploiting them--cyberdemons are used in the same highly spiteful spirit as those from map 06, but I feel like it's done better here (mostly because the environment is more interesting, albeit nearly as inconvenient to navigate in places)--but for every good moment there's a lot of crass ones. Some of the fights seem to just plain not work correctly, like they're set up so that camping them is what you're supposed to do (pointless imp ledge, caco/PE wave, etc.), and some of what seem to be intended to be the easier fights end up being more dangerous because monster projectiles are masked by and can pass through the dense lattice-style midtex enclosing the various torch props. I don't have a problem with these time-attack V-sphere fights per se, but three one right after another (with a fourth one earlier on) all in one map feels like going to the well too many times, especially since the only one of them where there's much real pressure is the last one, since the resources in the room just aren't going to be enough to outlast the horde's presence in that one.

Oh, apparently the map also breaks if you jump back down the lift after bypassing the cyberdemon ganker behind the blue door--seems like the lift only works once, and you need to be up there. Pretty serious stuff since it's pretty easy to leave ammo/powerups behind in this one, and feel like going back to get them later. I dunno, it still has some of Sunder's good qualities--its good looks, the way its combat features distinct gimmicks/concepts that distinguish it from other maps in the set--but in execution it seems pretty fucking awkward.

[dobu gabu maru]

MAP11: Well… that was a lot of enemies. I made the unfortunate decision to play this directly after MAP10 since I thought I had the time and uh… I didn’t have the time in one sitting. Overall, it’s definitely the longest and sloggiest map yet, emphasizing large scale battles that you have to jog around for a while until the horde cleans itself up (nearly 1000 enemies at the start can be slaughtered without firing a shot). Many of the encounters weren’t too complicated since it’s all about how to manipulate the masses into infighting, although there were some clever placements of monsters to impede my progress (like the arachs in that one tunnel to stop you from running out). I didn’t mind the platforming (I was surprised you were able to scoot along the outer walls). The last arena was quite gorgeous, although it was severely monotonous circling around all the baddies until it was clean up time. But man I was exhausted after all of this. Didn’t worry myself with getting max kills, decided to get out of there instead.

[mouldy]

Map11 - “The Furnace"

Played in prboom again as zdoom cries, not sure if its the monsters or the architecture, probably both. An absolutely classic opening scenario with what looks like a quarter of the entire monster population waiting for you at the bottom of a deep hole. The design of this map is really gorgeous, and terrifying in scale. Although that scale is actually your biggest ally, most of the set-piece battles being roomy enough to dance rings around the enemies. A fair number of the fights I was able to flick all the switches at my leisure and run away leaving a lot of stuff alive. In fact the trickiest battle I had was the entirely optional one of clearing the revenant sniper tower, which was only difficult until I realised there was another invulnerability up there. I should point out that when I say fights aren't difficult, what I mean is they don't kill me quite so much, and I'm certainly not complaining about that. The only shots I fired in the battle of the ivy cavern were to clear up the few remaining cyberdemons, there was just so much space to run around in. Even the final army of archviles were fairly easy to contain at the mouth of the temple.

Half way through there was an entirely arbitrary platforming section, which I have to drop points for. I will never understand the point of that stuff, in a game where every other aspect involves adapting to situations and managing resources, to suddenly switch to "do this exactly right or you die" seems so out of place. These platforms weren't even integrated with the architecture of the map, just a strange little excursion into mario world in between the killing. It feels like the fact that there is no way out if you fall is almost an admission of the broken gameplay mechanics of it, as even if there was a back-to-the-start teleport in the pit people would just be saving and reloading anyway.

Anyway, other than that a very enjoyable map with stunning visuals, maybe not as difficult as it wants to be, but fun all the while.

[Veinen]

Map08: The Pale Monument - 52:10 - 99% kills (missed 1 monster)

A sexy looking map, the creamy white and dark grey metal textures mix together really nicely. The architecture is fittingly grandiose as well and the slowish and atmospheric midi complements the dreamy feel of the map well. I was sadly a bit disappointed at the gameplay though. This was my first time playing the map and in almost every battle the level design pretty much invites you to chokepoint and cheese the encounters, which in turn makes most of the map really easy to handle. I think I died once or twice at the start then at the Caco swarm a few times before realizing the BFG can already be acquired and that's it.

Speaking of which, the Caco swarm is fucking delicious and easily the most memorable and the toughest part of the map. You know you've done some damage when corpses of the fallen foes start blocking your view and making dodging projectiles slightly harder. My progression in the later parts was kind of silly, I advanced really far into the map after dealing with about half of the Cacos and only after a while noticed that shit has really hit the fan behind me. Dealing with the situation wasn't very difficult though and I guess it turned out for the best since it made me move around a little more. The finale was another instance where a mobile approach was required, too bad it's a little too simple to tackle by circling around the perimeter until a large enough part of the horde has consumed itself. Missed one monster somewhere, did look around a bit to no avail so perhaps I too had 1 guy not able to escape his teleport closet like in DotW's playthrough.

[Demon of the Well]

Map 10 -- The Hag's Finger - 109% Kills / No secrets
Erected by disgraced nobility on the site of a terrible ancient battle, the Hag's Finger, a black iron spire perched on an artificial rise ringed by a series of towering wooden walls and moats, is essentially a lightning rod for supernatural energies. The land around the massive structure is blighted; the soil barren, the remaining vegetation leprous and dessicated, the streams rendered boiling and sulfurous. Each segment of each of the outer rings is dotted with smaller towers, cairns, and crude sacrificial altars arranged in strange yet curiously regular, rational patterns; each is essentially a tableau for a particular type of black magic ritual. Seen from a bird's eye view, these rings themselves are set down in a roughly concentric arrangement with the Finger itself at its very center, as though each progressively tighter ring was intended to transmit and magnify the spectral energies conjured by rites simultaneously conducted on the more exterior rings. As to the exact purpose of the spire itself, or to the reasons why someone would spend a lifetime (or several lifetimes, if the cemetery halfway up the ascent accomodating many scions of the noble line from several generations past is anything to go by) constructing what is essentially a grotesquely oversized occultic step-transformer, one can only speculate, but perhaps the answer lies with the small but far-reaching dimensional portal that has opened at the heart of it all...

Strangely, map 10 opens with one of the most stunning vistas to be found in the whole WAD, and then proceeds to be what is probably its most visually bland and drab map once you get down to the business of actually playing through it. It's brown, brown, and more brown, and vast featureless walls, and so many stark, barren yards with little bits dotted around in them like candles on a cake; the heavily segmented nature of the mapflow also arguably makes the whole feel a little more video-gamey than it strictly needs to, but perhaps that's just me. Some of the sheer scale of the areas and the vague sense of climbing higher and higher towards the center rescues the overall impression somewhat, but it's still much less vibrant than what so many of the other maps offer in this regard. I seem to recall that I was bitching and moaning early on about not liking the music selections in Sunder; up until now I was getting ready to eat my words because I felt they were mostly fine up to this point, but now that I'm here playing this again and listening to this particular dust-dry Duke3D track (from the San Andreas Fault level in L.A. Meltdown, I think?) I remember that it's mostly towards the end of the WAD--where the maps start to get a lot longer--where they start to aggravate me somewhat.

That being said, this particular map doesn't really run as long as one might think from that opening shot (or just from the monster count). Or it doesn't feel that long in toto, anyway....I think this is mostly because this is also one of the mapset's easier maps. Most fights are pretty straightforward and thus don't require particularly complex or nuanced strategies--e.g. the first fight is a simple infighting bonanza, the second is revenant-herding 101, the third is scramble-around-like-a-chipmunk-on-amphetamines-and-blast-PEs-time, etc. Not all of the many different fights are necessarily a snap to pull off, mind you; the point is that none of them take much experimentation to figure out how they're probably supposed to be pulled off, and so it's just a matter of execution. Much of this is inoffensive, but the map unfortunately has a few instances of the kind of pitfalls that some players use as grounds for dismissing slaughtermaps out of hand--the worst offender is probably the eeennnnndllleeeessss hell knight stream over flat ground after the revenant tunnel. What is it that people often say when they mean to trivialize the slaughter style--'oh, it's stupid, all you have to do is just hold down the fire button and strafe around a little bit for an eternity', something like that, right? Well, that's exactly what you do here--depress the strafe key and turn off your brain for the next five minutes. No idea what the fuck Gazebo was going for with this one...maybe the sad truth is it's just flat-out filler (a nasty affliction characteristic of weaker slaughtermaps), or, if we're lucky and he ever works on this again, a placeholder. We can dream, right? The world's worst game of hide-and-seek that involves the three identical vile/baron groups is also pretty dire....why barons? Hell knights would've served 100% just as well (that is, in creating a moving meatshield for the viles) without wasting so much of the player's time cleaning up afterwards.

There's some good counterpoints to the poor moments--I like the ridiculous rev/pinkie waves on the stairs, even though they're arguably only superficially different from the HK spam I complained about (I guess taking place on a stairway and using more fragile monsters makes all the difference), and the final fight sets up an interesting dynamic where the BFG may not always be the best weapon for the job (during parts of the fight's ebb and flow you can really do more efficient damage to the viles in the thick of the clusterfuck while sustaining less yourself by using the rocket launcher instead), but overall I think the map suffers a little from having more real estate than it does ideas to fill said real estate up with. Not a terrible map, but certainly not a high point in the mapset....apart from that opening shot, man.

[Demonologist]

Map11 - “The Furnace"
The looks of this map are truly spectacular, and they also spawned jawdropping masterpieces like Phml's Mouse from Slaughterfest 2011, so more points goes for them. But, but... What about actually playing it instead of just looking? It's bad. I really like the encounter in the second area that player opens after a bit of platforming (ugh...), there is maybe a couple of decent encounters further on, but that's all about it. Boring and unthoughtfully monster-spammed overall. And one more incredibly long platforming section? You gotta be kidding. Fun fact: I managed to skip vile encounter in the temple area completely. They just decided not to show up. All for good.
So, while I really admire the looks - I also equally despise the gameplay. Pity, could've been a great map.

Map12 - “The Zealous Machine"
This one has pretty idiotic beginning if you do it the intended way, though you can also borrow the AV-jump-based route from j4rio's demo and change the order of things. Still, the 'regular' way is fine once you deal with the initial frenzy that seems to be more luck-based that anything. The only part of this map aside from this one that feels kinda stupid is the need to melt through tremendous amount of imps after getting the bfg (once again, by AV-jumping you'll trigger this scenario right away), halved number would be just fine without suffering loss in efficiency. I sort of like the arena with 4 cybs and hordes stationed in three directions around, and the penultimate setpiece, although pretty grindy with that many revenants, is a highlight battle of this map for me, especially the second noble/caco/cyb onslaught. The final battle... never bothered to actually clear it, but learned where the switches are and used a couple of green balloons to rush for the exit.
Visual-wise it's pretty nice, a clever combination of wood and metal that feels fresh even though the textures forming it are extremely familiar for the most part.
Bonus points for addictive music, here.
So I'd probably say I like it, aside from a few stinker fights.

[Cynical]

First fight in The Zealous Machine, done without the Vile jump, does have a consistent solution, if your execution is on point (but the execution is pretty tough).

Start of the map, grab the guns, DO NOT GRAB THE MEGASPHERE. Attack the Viles with Plasma, try to make them flinch. DO NOT LOOK FOR COVER UNTIL YOU'VE TAKEN ONE HIT FROM THEM; MAXIMIZE YOUR DPS NOW. When you do eventually take that hit, run back for the Megasphere, and use that pillar as cover to finish them off. The Cyberdemon should be closing in on your position by now; slip by him, run down his hallway (do be careful not to wake up those two Cybs through that somewhat opaque window), and get the Revenants infighting him. Once he's fighting the Revs, sprint past them to the area where the Viles were. From here, you can pretty easily clean up any stray Revs with the SSG, and then finish off the Cyb with the SSG as well.

The fight on the "donut" with the Revs and the Cyb overlooking gives me much more problems.

[Demon of the Well]

Map 11 -- The Furnace - 106% Kills / No secrets
Long ago a flourishing kingdom on a now lost volcanic island was visited with a nightmarish plague that devastated its people so quickly and so thoroughly that literal mountains of corpses littered its streets and fields, drawing clouds of flying vermin so large they blocked out the sun, and breeding further blight and malaise. Stricken with grief and horror beyond the bounds of human reason, the remaining stewards of the ruined nation used all the bounties of its once vast treasury (and all the remaining strength of its once vast population) to construct a gargantuan crematory oven of bronze, iron and cobalt, shaped in ritualistic configuration and using lava channeled from the great volcano as fuel. Eventually the combination of the pestilence and the horrible strain and unrest eliding from the insane funerary undertaking wiped out the populace entirely; very little of the civilization remains now, but for the ruin of a once grand temple...that, and the great furnace, now so suffused with the psychic energy of millions of departed souls that the bonds of mundane reality have worn thin enough for slumbering spirits to manifest themselves in all manner of ghastly shapes, collectively clamoring and howling in the depths of the ancient not-quite-cold oven with all the centuries of sorrow and rage born of unanswered prayers to long-forgotten gods.

This is probably THE Sunder map in the public eye; it is certainly the one that has been most influential (both aesthetically and in gameplay terms) on much kindred WADwork that has come after it. And, I must say, it pretty much defines Sunder to me personally as well--it's not my favorite map from the set, not the one with the most nuanced/clever gameplay, or the one I find most aesthetically appealing (although its vastness of scale is really hard not to admire)--but it most obviously and comprehensively encapsulates all of the core Sunder values like no other map in the set does. Kind of fitting that despite its length and huge monster count, it probably sits somewhere in the middle of the mapset's overall difficulty curve; it's the first map in Sunder that I've never beaten without a save (and in fact, I've never even attempted it) not so much because it's crushingly difficult (in fact, it's another of those that mostly gets easier and easier the farther in you make it), but because it's just such an involved undertaking that I've never felt I quite had the time to session it simply for the sake of my own foolish pride.

While crowd control is often essentially the name of the game in maps of this type, here it is absolutely the dominant concept underlying almost every battle. As others have observed, while many of the setpieces appear terribly intimidating, in practice many of them are a lot more forgiving than one might expect, a natural function of the vast amount of floor space in most fights, which plays to Doomguy's greatest strengths so well. The sheer density of the monster population in some parts is redolent in some ways of the poorer parts of map 10 (the hell knight ledges are generally the most guilty of this, moreso the repeat fights after the platforming section than the initial occurrence in the first huge chamber)--that is to say, a bit of a monotonous grind--but for the most part I think the map as a whole goes down a lot smoother, and is more consistently enjoyable if you're in the mood for it. It strikes a pleasant balance between ego-massaging fights where your speed places the advantage decisively on your side--for example, the battle with the imp clusters and other assorted nasties in the northwestern chamber--and more subtly tricky segments where the chief challenge lies more in figuring out a good strategy than in actually executing it. The best example of this is probably getting a handle on the opening area; ammo is not as plentiful as it might initially seem (especially if you decide to clear out the optional knight/rev ledges), and figuring out how to wrangle together the kit you need exactly when you need it is an interesting logistical challenge. Apart from the tricky coven of instapopping viles in the temple (a good strategy here is to fire several BFG orbs at the back wall as one approaches it, before they appear, stepping forward to trigger the horde at the right moment so that it instantly soaks up several shots worth of rays) the massive fight in the verdant temple area is probably the most one-note and least stressful of all, and yet I don't find it unappealing simply because I like the venue itself so much, once again underscoring the power of aesthetic in this mapset.

Edit: Heh, oh yeah, and again I can say that I really don't mind the platforming segment (and I feel silly for never having realized you could skirt around the edges); apart from one certain dogleg at the start of the third section, I really don't find it particularly difficult, or at least I've seen some of these that are a lot more finicky in other WADs. Again, though, props to people who do this on just a keyboard, and to heroic speedrunners who don't choke here in their demos.

[mouldy]

Map12 - “The Zealous Machine"

Funny I hardly remembered playing this map before, maybe because as Sunder maps go the battles feel a bit basic. Some involve mainly one type of enemy, some feature vantage points of almost complete safety, and some the only real danger is getting killed whilst fannying about getting all the monsters infighting. A few are such blatant circle-strafe bonanzas it feels like we are being handed this one on a plate, especially with the mountains of health on offer. Which is strange because the start is a bastard, although I eventually found a reliable way of getting through it in one piece. I nearly died of shock when I saw an actual key, are there any keys in any of the other maps? I don't remember seeing any.

Then there was an imp invasion where the biggest threat was doing something reckless from boredom, and a circular arena with a million revenants in the middle that you just had to keep going round and round for five minutes plinking rockets at them. The battle straight after that was quite interesting, caught in a sandwich of cybers and barons.

I definitely remembered the final battle though, that room in itself is hard to forget. The best tactic seemed to be just staying alive, circling the room with bfg to clear the occasional blockage. I did grab one of the invul spheres at one point but it took so many deaths for me to dance across those platforms I'm not sure it was worth it. Luckily I also remembered where the final switches were which saved me the hassle i had the last time trying to find them. Not the most memorable map of the set, but it has its moments, and the visuals are very cool.

[Salt-Man Z]

Salt-Man Z said:

I do plan on getting back to this. Just taking a couple days off to let my anger at MAP05 simmer down (and also play through Epic 1 and try out some HocusDoom—which is amazing, by the way, thanks for asking.) I plan on getting back into Sunder this weekend, and I figure the CtE levels will be short enough that I can work them in around Sunder saves.

Okay, I'm back (for now.)

I finished off MAP05. I clipped over to the eastern island and continued from there. Finished off the revenants and cyber easily, and was able to fill up my health and ammo, which was sorely needed for the next wave of pain elementals. (I lost half of it again to those bastards.) The three-vile ambush took me a number of tries to pass, but when I did it went down easily; I hadn't realized there were so few viles, with them teleporting around like that. The final battle went pretty smoothly, especially given the big long wall I could run behind to evade the three cybers. All around, a very cool-looking, frustrating level.

MAP06: Grinder
Much like the last level, I ended up about half enjoying, half hating this one. Basically, I pretty much enjoyed the parts that didn't include archviles. The opening was a lot of fun, just keep moving and shooting; I managed to not take any damage for a surprising amount of time. That huge battle midway through with the (4-5?) archviles was absolutely maddening, but only a foretaste of what was to lie ahead in the final room. That room was absolute bullshit. Even with an invulnerable and fully-stocked RL and plasma gun, I could barely move around (much less see to do so!) After half an hour's worth of attempts (or whatever), I just said screw it and IDDQDed my way out (which still took forever!)

[Demon of the Well]

^Regarding map 12, I usually play almost completely pacifistically/silently for as long as possible at the start, getting the cyberdemon to aggro the viles, and then getting the revenants to aggro the cyber, and THEN using the cyber to kill the Barons too (although sometimes they Boom him to death, which the revs can also do if you're really unlucky).

Map 12 -- The Zealous Machine - 102% Kills / No secrets
Hmm, this one is nicer-looking than I'd remembered. It suffers a little from a lot of very flat lighting (as many of the Sunder maps do) and I don't like the sky for it (this is a mapset that would definitely benefit from having a different sky for every map if it ever gets updated), but the old wood/metal theme goes surprisingly well with the grates and fleshtech. Of course, the most striking scene is the core of the Machine itself, in the final vast battle chamber at the bottom of that majestic staircase. While the purpose of the Machine seems pretty clear given the nature of that last battle, its nature is more mysterious. The juxtaposition of massive, otherworldly machinery and symmetrically arranged sacrificial pits for burnt offerings suggests that it doesn't exactly run on Energizer batteries, at any rate. One is led to wonder if the rancid flesh enmeshed with the miles and miles of conductors and circuitry is a part of the original design, or if the Machine is being gradually upgraded to extend its potency and range....

This is a pretty good companion piece to map 11, it has a lot of the same virtues (strong visuals, powerful sense of scale, enjoyable marquee fights) and a lot of the same faults (some overlong filler battles). The main difference is that this one hearkens back to 'Hollow Icon' in that it starts with smallscale fights and then consistently ups the ante with each successive encounter, right up until it culminates in what I believe is the single largest battle in the current version of the WAD (numerically speaking, I mean). Another running theme is that cyberdemons are very overtly meant to be weaponized in a lot of the fights; this point is made from the get-go with the best way to handle everything behind the first door being to play Blame It All on Cybie, underscored in several later setpieces (the 'three ledges of trash' fight beyond the yellow gate, the giant caco/noble bonanza that takes place in/around the Crazy Revenant Gazebo, etc.).....and then really hammered home when there are none of those perky bovine siege engines at all in the final fight, just when you'd most like their help. Finally, I noticed that a ton of the fights can probably be cheesed very easily (although once again there's pretty much no way that's going to work in the final battle)--one can often use ledges or stairs to exploit blind spots in the monsters' attack angles, so if you prefer (or need) to play that way, I reckon you're likely to find that this map's not as relentlessly intimidating as it might initially seem (again, I've never tried to beat it without saving at least before the final battle, though).

That final battle, now....that's what pretty much everyone remembers about the map. And who could blame them, really? It's ludicrous, patently ludicrous, and it also takes forever and a day to clean up everything after you've essentially won (not that you're forced to do this, mind), but I think it's worth it for the first few minutes of the fight, which is cinematic in scope (the distant throngs of revenants on the opposite side of the machine's chamber, man....) and a genuine challenge to unravel a good tactic for. Simply trying to circle endlessly around the perimeter is highly unlikely to prove viable; infighting is not going to have fast enough a rate of attrition here to keep you from eventually being overrun and trampled. You need to inflict enough casualties early on so that you can move around a little bit. The key to this is skillful/well-timed use of the V-spheres, and the cell clusters near them. I am usually able to win the fight using only one of the two available if I manage to time it right; a really practiced player might even be able to do it entirely without them, who knows. The idea is to take out the revenants; they are your fastest foes here, and in combination with their tracking missiles they are the most likely to pressure you into a no-win situation. Because they are also the most fragile monsters in the fight, however, they will tend to die off long before anything else; this is what I mean when I say you can essentially win this fight long before it's ever, eventually left to clean up a huge mountain of HKs and cacos (or you could ignore them and the inattentive viles in the core and leave).