The DWmegawad Club plays: Doom 2 the Way id Did

[7hm]

Salt-Man Z said:

Dude, don't waste your time. Short of opening the WAD up in Doombuilder, I don't see how one could even accidentally find it. Just watch here: http://youtu.be/MBWGtXZMSdM.

Haha. Ok then.

In any case I figured I'd play through it today if that's where the actual exit is. Thoughts below.

Holy shit. I'm not sure if this is supposed to be good, or a joke. It looks about as bad as most of the IWad hell levels, except for a couple spots with really wonky lighting, and some weird texturing (though the IWads have that too). Slaughter-y gameplay without the ammo, from what I could tell. I'm not good enough to gauge slaughtermap quality though. It was pretty straightforward to navigate at least, not a lot of looking around wondering where to go. That meant more than a few sections where you're on rails with little room to navigate. The sewer section was the worst for that. I liked the lava field (the third area) and how you ran up to the base area, kind of like one of those games we used to play in gym class with dodgeballs and gym mats. I would have liked it more if I hadn't been nearly dead the whole time. I reloaded a dozen times there, at least. I also said screw it to the final AV twins and just ran for the exit.

[Salt-Man Z]

7hm said:

In any case I figured I'd play through it today if that's where the actual exit is. Thoughts below.

"Slaughter-y gameplay without the ammo" about sums up my thoughts as well. Sigh. I made it almost as far as I did on my previous HMP attempt (to the second area, behind the blue? door) and just gave up. Hitscanners, imps, revenants, and lost souls hitting you from all angles, with a pack of barons down below? No thanks. The first area was a challenge, but number two is just ridiculous.

I gave the original MAP33: Betray a replay, and beat it without any difficulty on HMP. Like Hexsoil, it sticks out from the rest of the set like a sore thumb, but it's at least playable, and actually kind of adorable in that dorky, awkward 1995 WAD way.

[Alfonzo]

Developer's Notes:

...
MAP02: The Compound
This was Tarnsman's second attempt at a McGee map and a shoe-in for the slot after it was revealed in early 2013. As a couple of folks have already mentioned it does well to capture the fiendishly difficult hitscan gameplay that often defines McGee maps, but it also served as a quality standard for design when the particularities of McGee's style were still being scrupulously studied. Lighting, layout, geometry, texture selection and in particular texture use all played a big part in this map's constant reformation until its ultimate form took shape a couple of months before release. Oddities such as the fullbright light change effect in the RK pickup area were late inclusions to the map after Tarnsman and the team realised we didn't have enough of the quirky design decisions that sometimes fell into McGee's work (The Focus was riddled with these what with the crusher windows and light switch. And that crate button as mandatory progression!).

All up, I like it a lot. Possibly the most authentic map of the early McGee efforts next to Pavera's MAP05: The Boiler.

More trivia: The lite3 texture used in the BK pickup monster closet (where doortrack would normally be expected) fell subject to the much-celebrated Leave It In™ policy, where errors that looked consistent with those made by the original designers in Doom 2 were deliberately ignored for authenticity. McGee was often just as heinously lazy as Romero and just as privy to oversights where texturing and alignment were concerned, and so this delightful bit of "quality" was left completely unchanged. What joy!

EDIT: Tarns has just informed me that the map was actually started before both MAP23 and his failed attempt at a MAP05, making it his first try at a McGee styled map.

[mouldy]

Map03 - “Water Main” by Esselfortium

Fairly simple looking map with very right-angled layout, but a nice amount of interconnected complexity, which is made use of with window snipers and filtering monsters. It does that thing of leading the player in a circle back to the start, I don't remember much of that in the original, but I might be wrong. Nice introduction of the chaingunners (though not as deadly as the original map03), and I liked the open design of the final room. These maps feel very spacious and especially tall compared to the doom 2 I remember. Having a quick run through the first few maps of doom 2 and they feel very claustrophobic by comparison.

[Salt-Man Z]

MAP03: Water Main
So the first thing I notice is that the title graphic is weirdly off-center. Don't know if that was intentional, or another Leave It In...? Anyway, this is another fun romp. More imps and hitscanners, which I always find fun. I hadn't realized this was an essel level, but I seem to always appreciate the flow to his maps, and the loop-back-to-the-start here is fitting. A couple of things that stuck out as a little odd to me: You pick up the blue key, which immediately reveals the blue door, directly behind which is the red key. Seemed a little pointless. Also, the large final room takes a yellow key to get in, and then the exit door inside also takes the yellow key, which is a bit redundant; I have to assume this was meant to reflect a quirk of the original IWAD? The most memorable part of this map, I have to say, is probably the striking Y-shaped architectural supports by the blue key.

[cannonball]

Map03 - “Water Main” by Esselfortium
I too had a very spacious feeling about this one at times. More spacious than the early maps of Doom 2, but then again it might be just me. The texture theme is different too but still feel McGee like so props for that. Gameplay felt a little easier than map 2 until the end, though finding the partial invisibility secret might have helped. Again a really nice and fun map.

[purist]

I'll try to keep up this time. I've played some of this already so that might give me a head start.

MAP01

The texturing and shape of this level seemed fitting for an alternative Doom II MAP01 replacement but the scale felt off. This gives the level an imposing yet empty feel and leaves the action a little tepid. It does look like it could be fun in DM, which I acknowledge is a factor for this slot.

MAP02

This was was fun to play and the architecture felt more in tune than MAP01. Some of the traps were less forgiving then at this stage of the original Doom 2 and some section's resemblance to Underhalls felt too on the nose.

MAP03

This map looks lovely, if a little mono textured at times. It contains some neat setpiece and the mapflow is typical essel quality. I think this is a bit too structurally complex even for McGee, which gave me the impression it was somewhere between IWAD and PWAD.

[7hm]

Wad: Doom 2 the Way iD Did
Slot: 3
Map: Water Main
Author: Michael Mancuso
Notes:
Popcorn monsters part 3. Again, this feels a lot like McGee with all the right angles and monster closets. I know that there isn't supposed to be direct comparison between the map slots, but this feels somewhat like The Gantlet. There is of course the starting shot of you staring at a door, but then there's also your introduction to chaingunners. Essel goes a bit easier on us than McGee did by giving us some practice before picking up the yellow key, but the exit area with chaingunners is probably the first actually dangerous area of the wad so far (similar to the Gantlet chaingunner area being the first dangerous spot in Doom 2).

It's all still very popcorn monster-y, with maps that even on a first shot are finished in only a few minutes. Similar to Doom 2 in that regard at least. I like that D2TWID seems to be a bit ahead of the curve compared to Doom 2 at least, what with the higher hitscanner count, early intro to cacodemons, and the early RL (even if it hasn't been needed).

[Magnusblitz]

MAP03: Water Main
100% kills | 1/1 secret | 4:40

Despite the texturing (the green brick is so Doom 2) this one felt more like a Doom map to me in some ways, with it's wrap-around layout, lower-to-the-floor ambush and the yellow key grab opening up monster closets across the level. I also agree that one this one felt a bit too complex in parts for an id level, especially the angled cage near the start and the ceiling near the yellow door. Decent little romp though, and the invisibility really helps (though mainly due to the ZDoom affect of monsters not alerting).

[Demon of the Well]

Map 03 -- Water Main - 100% Kills / 100% Secrets
Playing this map underscores for me what I said at the outset about not feeling personally inclined to judge the WAD's overall degree of success or failure based primarily on how much its maps feel like they'd have been a natural fit in (or substitute for) doom2.wad--it is an enjoyable experience, probably moreso than the first two maps, but of the three maps we've seen thus far also the one that I feel to be the least effective as a proxy for its target id author's style.

While I couldn't really pin down anything specific in map 02 that seemed a little too aesthetically polished to me, here that's not the case. Apart from the matter of the generally gentler, smoother, and more idly realistic lighting transitions from corridor to room and from area to area, certain scenes seem too finely-chiseled or structurally layered to really resemble McGee's terse, utilitarian style, most notably the inset tri-level 'patio' setup outside of the yellow door. On the other hand, there are little bits in the map that do look very McGee to me despite not being patterned on anything specific from the IWAD, like the Y-joists with the techlamps sitting in them that rise out of one of the sample pools--it's a bit of detail that exists entirely for aesthetic purposes like some of the odd little doodads in his maps (like the exit aperture on map 14) while maintaining that square-jawed look that so much of his stuff had. Some might fault the texture selection here, but I think it's fine--I don't remember him heavily using many of these particular flats/textures, but their proportions and arrangements do look very 'Doom II E1.' Incidentally, the grimy green bricks are one of my favorite Doom II textures (especially when paired with liquids and gloomy lighting), so the level works well for me on a thematic level, McGee-esque or no.

I thought the map was a nice pleasant run-through as well, generally a steady stream of fodder enemies with the occasional freestanding setpiece to lend the action a bit more structure, ala the blue key ambush. I also liked the introduction of the former human commandos from an aesthetic perspective, first appearing as they do as a small squad of heavily-armed undead that can dowse the player in a hail of bullets from their position near the Main's entrance, almost as though they've been pursuing the player and have finally caught up. On the subject of encountering them near the initial entry point, this level very much has the characteristic Esselfortium 'looping layout' thing going on; while this doesn't strike me as being much of a McGee trait (as I recall, a lot of his maps sort of branch off in a few directions from important junction points, which the player tends to travel in and out of more directly), it serves this particular map well; while I don't think most of what's here is technically as dangerous as the shotgunner-fever of map 02, the looping layout in concert with the periodic small reinfusions of enemies via monster closets help its combat feel substantial (if low-key) and allow it to avoid the somewhat underpopulated air of map 01.

[Jaws In Space]

Doom 2 The Way ID Did- MAP 3: HMP, Continuous, Keyboard Only

So while I really enjoyed the last McGee map, I didn't like this one nearly as much. There are very few areas in the map that clearly stood out as McGee the most prominent being the area after the yellow key door which seems to be inspired on the exit room of the focus. The texture usage here seemed a bit off, I suppose McGee could have used Brick10 as a texture, but he never did so it feels really off to use it as one of the main texture throughout the map. There are a few parts in the map that seem a little to over detailed & polished, but they are few & far between. At least the monsters feel right, lots of hitscanners.

[Steve D]

With a new PC under my belt to replace the half-dead carcass of my old one, maybe, just maybe, I can actually finish a megawad this time!

I've been looking forward to this, and have voted for it more than once, because even though I'm an Ultimate Doom loyalist and tend to agree with those who think Doom 2 is simply too damned ugly, the fact remains that a lot of sweet maps are contained therein. Unlike some Doomers, I flat-out love the American McGee maps, with Underhalls, The Gantlet and The Focus constituting a continuous trifecta of raw fucking brilliance that I have played again and again through the years. Maybe it's because, when I was a semi-spastic, fumble-fingered jagoff trying to play Doom for the first time, it was these maps that made me cry like a little girl as I was cuffed severely about the head and shoulders. The Gantlet's horrifying introduction of Chaingunners led to countless deaths, and then there was that thing that kept killing me down in the water, and I'd look up to see a horned shadow against the sky and ask, "WTF is that?" Scared the shit outta me. Yeah, I know, RTFM, right? But as luck would have it, and as I've said before, my inability to survive The Gantlet led to me downloading shareware Doom as "boot camp," thus introducing me to my beloved Knee Deep, where I learned what a Spectre was, and where I gained the skill to come back and at last triumph over The Gantlet -- after many more deaths. ;)

I played the first 3 maps last night, starting around 4:30AM. I played in a partly delusional, semi-conscious state, but nonetheless, no SteveD pelts were collected. I'm playing UV, continuous, keyboard-only, on Risen3D, as usual.

Map01 - Loading Bay by RottKing - Kills - 96, Items - 86, Secrets - 66. Time - 8:07. End Health - 200, Armor - 100. Death Count - Zero

I'm a big fan of RottKing, but I do feel this map is a bit underwhelming. As others have said, it feels ginormous and empty compared to Entryway, and the combat is too low-key. OTOH, it's well-executed, with a fun layout and looks kinda cool in a grimy way.

The window jump is there just to troll keyboarders, isn't it? I should've just cheated. :D

The secrets and connections were cleverly done, though I agree with DoTW that more should've been done outside. Felt a bit deflated to find myself alone out there.

I read dew's comments about the DM qualities, but as a solo player, I think more could've been done to keep us entertained.

[Steve D]

Map02 - The Compound by Tarnsman - Kills - 100, Items - 75, Secret - 100. Time - 11:57. End Health - 105, Armor - 200. Death Count - Zero

This map is dead easy, but I enjoyed it just the same. Keep feeding me them hitscanners! I love the hitscanner game, so this was like catnip to me. A little sidestep here, a little herding there, try to get some triple-kills, etc. I could play a whole megawad of maps like this and beg for more. That said, I realize this is still early days and they're holding back the hammers for later. But personally, I find this easier than Underhalls, which has that nasty drop-down area plus the big trap at the building that also sent some meanies teleporting back to the start area to give you an unpleasant surprise. This map is more of a straightforward blast-fest.

On that note, Magnus nailed it when he said this is a mash-up of Underhalls and The Focus, two great tastes that go great together, if you'll forgive the cliche. The map looks fab and has a great teaser for the Blue Armor. The RL secret was nicely telegraphed.

The map is also defined by two traps. The blue key trap was so obvious. Heh, you won't get me with that one, laddie! ;D It was still fun, though. The red key trap was the highlight, a clear winner on style points plus game points for being even nastier than expected. That one inspired some hectic movement and delivered a hefty serving of damage.

All in all a fine outing.

[mouldy]

Map04 - “The Siltyards” by Alfonzo

What is a siltyard I wonder? I can't say I am any the wiser after this map, but it seems like some kind of industrial complex. This was a fun little adventure, not particularly hard, the nastiest moment was teleporting into the hallway where hitscanners emerge from alcoves while a chaingunner sprays you from dead ahead. Had to go back for health after that bit. Other than that everything was fairly straightforward and in your gunsights. The berzerk ambush was triggered prematurely for me, leaving all the demons stranded on the platform while I mowed them down from the doorway, and the final red key battle was weakened somewhat by the scale of the room and the slow lowering walls. I just hid in the red key alcove and mowed stuff down as it came trickling in. When I picked up the SSG there were only a couple of imps and an exit-demon left. Its a nice intricate layout though, with an interesting route running through it. I only found one secret from random wall-humping, totally missed the gun switch one.

[Salt-Man Z]

Siltyards? It's "The Terminal" in my copy.

MAP04: The Terminal
This map (along with maps 2-3) has stuck with me from my fist play in that persistently vague way that some maps do. In particular, the initial and final rooms. The final room actually feels a lot like the final room from the previous map, and in fact when I played MAP03 again a couple days ago, I was ready to look for MAP04's wallhumping secret. Not a lot else to say other than it's another fun little romp (I guess I like McGee maps?) though the constant teleporting around gets a little confusing. This level continues the trend of very tall-feeling maps that started with MAP01.

[Steve D]

Map03 - Water Main by esselfortium - Kills - 100, Items - 100, Secrets - 100. Time - 12:17. End Health - 95, Armor - 76. Death Count - Zero

I'll agree with others who say this map does not feel like Doom 2 The Way id Did, but more like Low Detail Knee Deep The Way essel Did. Sorry for the smartassiness, and don't let that mislead you. I enjoyed this map tremendously and appreciated the way intensity was dialed up a bit. Like DoTW, I will not hold it against any map if it happens to stray, even widely in this case, from the path of Doom-2ness, especially if the map is this much fun. What really seems to take it out of the D2TWiD world is the way it almost looks like . . . something, as opposed to the abstract weirdness of most Doom 2 maps. This map gives the sensation of an actual almost-building, complete with those impressive Y-shaped structures, and while it can be said that American McGee's maps tended to be more structural than the others, it seems to me that essel took this trend a mite too far, which is an observation, not a complaint.

The 2 highlights for me were the big blue key trap and the exit area, both of which put some damage on me, though in the latter, much of it was self-inflicted as I laughed in the face of Risen3D's aggressive auto-aim and tried to rocket Cacos from a low-ceilinged hallway, and as a result sent several rockets into the ceiling. Splash ahoy!!!! ;D Didn't quite kill myself, though.

Once again, though the gameplay was very enjoyable, the absolute raw brutality of The Gantlet was not achieved, though of course, I'm judging from the standpoint of having encountered that charnel house as a total noob. It's pretty easy for me these days, but I still have to watch my Ps and Qs in there, because death can strike like lightning. That said, this is a sweet map.

[Marcaek]

Salt-Man Z said:

Siltyards? It's "The Terminal" in my copy.

On the automap too? I believe this is a case of "intermission says one thing, automap says another" but I'm not sure. You might be playing an older version.

EDIT: I was right, must have been a "leave it in" I forgot about :P

[Salt-Man Z]

Marcaek said:

You might be playing an older version.

I bet I'm running the final pre-idgames release. I'll have to rectify that tonight.

[Tarnsman]

It was supposed to be The Terminal on all fronts, this was not a case of "leave it in", but a case of "we forgot to fix it".

As for Essel's water main looking out of place go look at some of the stuff McGee did in The Inmost Dens and Catacombs and how insanely out of place that stuff looks compared to other things in Doom 2. (You know if someone put that weird square step structure thing from the end of Inmost in D2TWID we'd all be complaining about how non-id it was)

[Steve D]

Tarnsman said:

As for Essel's water main looking out of place go look at some of the stuff McGee did in The Inmost Dens and Catacombs and how insanely out of place that stuff looks compared to other things in Doom 2. (You know if someone put that weird square step structure thing from the end of Inmost in D2TWID we'd all be complaining about how non-id it was)

Of course, I wasn't complaining, but to research the issue, I looked at both maps you named. And I hate to admit it, but you've got a point, especially with The Catacombs, which does not in any way resemble catacombs, but both maps have certain structures that are reminiscent of structures in essel's map, and both are very nasty thanks to their gnat's-ass tight ammo balance. Perhaps I was thrown off by how much better-looking and better-lit essel's map is by comparison, but I also realized that I've been away from Doom 2 for too long. Some of these maps are really great!

[Magnusblitz]

MAP04: The Siltyards
100% kills | 0/2 secrets

It's "Siltyards" for me on both automap and intermission screen, and I'm playing the version off idgames linked in the OP, so I dunno.

Probably my least favorite map so far. The layout is decent, but it's pretty ugly to look at (LOTS of misaligned textures, especially on doorjambs) and the combat felt a bit undertuned. Favorite part of the map was probably the drop down the left side, where a demon is immediately in your face but there's a nice couple barrels there to splatter the rest of the opposition in the room. I love barrels. Also, this map does have a lot of verticality, which I appreciate.

[cannonball]

Map04 - “The Terminal” (or Siltyards) by Alfonzo
This again was pretty decent, a little frustrating at times due to no armour unless you find the blue armour secret. Visuals are fine in my opinion.

[purist]

MAP04

My favourite level so far, lots of thoughtful little nods and a sweet mapflow. I like how barrels are placed here and there's some spots were you're forced to jump into a some mind peril. On the downside some of the traps like the demon teleportation and the final area misfire and as I was snaking through the level I couldn't help but think the layout was too complex to mimic an E1 McGee map.

[Jaws In Space]

Doom 2 The Way ID Did- MAP 4: HMP, Continuous, Keyboard Only

This was another decent McGee map, better than map 3, but not as good as map 2. Though it does seem better than map 2 in a way because I can't say that this was directly inspired by any of the IWAD maps & yet still looks & plays like a McGee map would. Also missed my first secret on this map, couldn't figure out how to open that door with the teleporter.

[dew]

re: map04, the speedrun route is pretty frustrating here, bits of Focus flashbacks. The original was just straight trolling tho, because it had a shotgunner in the alcove with the second teleporter you encounter. Luring him out and not getting shot was luck-based, frustrating and sssooo slow that I made Alfonzo take him out. There's enough of Focus-style running towards hitscanners and bypassing monsters as is. It's still a speedrun I dislike (the room with two chainers, ughh), but it quite resembles some of the early McGee Doom2 bullshit.

[Alfonzo]

Developer's Notes:

...
MAP03: Water Main
Together with MAP21, 25 and 30, Water Main was one of the first levels to be submitted to the project as a showcase for other would-be-contributors. Essel used brick10 as the primary texture after studies of McGee's texture selection revealed a preference for ones that could better hide his disgraceful alignment habits. It also fit in comfortably with the grimy, dilapidated tech base look that vaguley defines the majority of E1 in Doom 2. It also just happens to be a texture that essel likes. Go figure!

I appreciate the progression in this map a great deal, what with the looping layout, trivial key use, segregated final area and attention to American geometry and item usage - the strongest quality of this map, for me. The chaingunner and cacodemon reveal is great, and would probably sit in my mind as a defining moment of Doom 2 had the map existed in place of one of the first few levels. I won't baulk and say that the map doesn't look distinctly essel in some places (so clean-cut and refined!), but it's still one of the many joys of the project, I think - that we should try as best as we can to abolish all traces of our style and fail in the process, to varying degrees.

All up, one of the more adventurous efforts, and heaps of fun to boot. Barrels can do that to a map.

...
MAP04: The Terminal
My only American effort, and I think it shows! It first came about in late 2012 after I was done finalizing MAP30, and although the initial round of changes left me feeling pretty satisfied with it, it wasn't until activity on the project started picking up again in March that I realised just how much of it needed to be changed. Even then, it took me until the dying stages of the project to get it into an acceptable state, with almost every corner of the map being dragged about 4 or 5 times before completion.

Understanding how McGee separated and connected areas was what directed the first incarnation, although it left a number of issues regarding texture use, lighting and odd bits of detailing looking comparatively inauthentic. In a way, in fact, I always knew that I was preparing to leave it in a state where it would have to be sorted out using a more advanced understanding of McGee's work (not exactly the best move, granted), so I'm glad it turned out as well as it did under the circumstances.

It's a fun map though, if flawed, and that's something I can hang my hat on!

More Trivia: The name "The Siltyards" was one that I came up with in an attempt to emulate McGee's penchant for quirky map titles. Names like the Underhalls or The Gantlet always seemed to me a little off-kilter, and invited an inspection of the map's more representative elements that never really satisfied. The name was eventually ditched so as to not sound too similar to MAP12: The Shipyard, but I must have accidentally left a trace of it in there somewhere.

[Salt-Man Z]

Ah-ha! I think I've figured out the Terminal/Siltyards thing: If I don't load the external .deh, it shows "The Siltyards" on both the title graphic and the automap. If I do load the .deh (and I always do) it says "The Terminal" (in both places) and some of the title graphics become oddly offset ("Water Main" and "The Boiler", to name two.)

(I should mention that this is with the idgames version, in GZDoom.)

[esselfortium]

The BRICK10 theme in Water Main was a conscious decision on my part to use a texture that none of McGee's Doom 2 maps used. Given the tendency of his maps' aesthetics to be primarily defined by a single primary texture (or two, each used in different areas), I didn't want to use cracked stone and look like Underhalls, or use bigbrik and look like The Waste Tunnels, and so on. The sewer bricks are sufficiently McGee-friendly (like Alfonzo mentioned) and seemed a natural fit for the setting.

As far as structure goes, the lighting and architecture in the map were originally more complex and were simplified for the final version, removing extraneous vertices and sectors where possible, though apparently still not enough. :)

[AD_79]

MAP02: The Compound (UV, Keyboard+Mouse)

Well, it's definitely a step-up in difficulty, but not by much. Lots of hitscan enemies on this map, but quite a few places to avoid their fire. Found both secrets, they were both easy to get.

MAP03: Water Main

Again, slight difficulty increase, as chaingunners and cacodemons are thrown into the mix. Still quite easy, even on Ultra-Violence. The secret (yes, there's only one) also felt a bit lazy this time around.

MAP04: The Siltyards

No real increase in difficulty here. In fact, this map has less enemies than the previous one. Unfortunately, I couldn't find both secrets, the second one is a bit confusing...

[7hm]

Wad: Doom 2 the Way iD Did
Slot: 4
Map: The Siltyards
Author: Alfonzo
Notes:
I'm not sure whose style this was in. It looked like McGee, but it didn't feel nearly as cramped as McGee normally does. In any case...
An odd map. It has a tough start, especially if you rush the courtyard without realizing the commandos are there to your left, but then it calms right down. It gives the illusion of openness despite being pretty linear. I spent a bit more time on this one chasing the secrets, but it was still over quick. The final room is an obvious trap, and I love it. Arena combat against pinkies and imps and a couple hitscanners is a blast when you've got a berserk. Especially when it's entirely optional. I hadn't got the secrets until after I essentially finished the map, and from what I could tell one of them pretty much requires you to have finished the map. That bugs me, because if you're not playing continuously, what's the point?
I liked it, but I would have liked it more if the secrets came a bit earlier in the map.

I just read everyone else's comments and I guess it was a McGee map after all. Maybe McGee's style isn't as cramped as what I associate him with? I always think E4M1.