The DWmegawad Club plays: Doom 2 the Way id Did

[Demon of the Well]

Map 15 -- The Causeway - 101% Kills / 87% Secrets
Wasn't feeling this one as much as some of the other Sandymaps. Again, the look and general feel is there...I wouldn't say it looks too visually polished--lots of the texture/thematic schizophrenia, and lots of the aesthetic blemishes (big misalignments over thresholds, that sort of thing) one expects. Conceptually speaking, it's one of those Doom II E2 collections of freestanding single-themed buildings that you poke around in with only minimal direct guidance until you eventually stumble upon where you need to go/what you need to do. Back when D2TWiD first became available to the public and folks were talking about it then, I believe Alfonzo referred to it as the 'Sandybox style'--Downtown, Suburbs, that sort of thing. I can see where people are coming from interpreting some of this as being more in line with Romero's Industrial Zone--I think the moat and the two secret areas off of it do really contribute to the impression in a palpable way, but on a broad conceptual level, yeah, definitely Sandy.

.....doesn't feel like a particularly robust execution of the concept to me, though. While each building has its own scheme (or at least its own theme) and is clearly distinguishable from the others, only a couple of places feel particularly interesting or relevant to progression--and you have to visit/complete almost all of them (not that vinegrown building that has the computer map on its doorstep, at least, and I guess technically not the BFG building either) to finish. I reckon this is, in a way, basically the same complaint I had about CtE from last month, that being that because the buildings are so concept-driven but also very small (cogs in a machine in this case), the concepts usually don't develop much/at all aside from a couple of centerpieces, and there's not a lot a room for vibrant gameplay. Now I'll grant you that it's not reasonable to expect every little building to be a highly complex meisterwerk in this regard--if anything that'd probably make for a disjointed map, at least in this style--just seems like the signal/noise ratio's a bit off here, to me. The vertical aspect also seems more superficial--you do sometimes leap from one building to another, sure, but they're all very undramatic leaps, with little more fanfare to them than you'd get just opening a door. The most vibrant area of the map in this regard is probably the strange blue key chamber, which uses a variant of a puzzle idea we've already seen before in the WAD by this point.

All that being said, the map's not without some entertaining gameplay aspects. In line with a lot of the other D2TWiD Sandymaps we've seen thus far, there's a bit of a scramble for weapons and ammo at the beginning, which does at least get the blood moving. No half-heartedness to that aspect of the balance, either--I ran completely out of ammo twice (usually expending it on cacodemons, who were able to persistently follow me wherever I went while other monsters couldn't) before starting to really get on my feet. I also was pleasantly surprised by the red key trap--it might just be specters, but there's a helluva lot of them, and they're primed to surround you in moments. Nearly died there, actually....was lucky to back myself into a corner and hide behind the chainsaw before being killed. The big rush of monsters at the end, while utterly helpless in the face of the V-sphere you get moments before they start to appear, also appealed to me...it was just a killing spree for the sake of fun. As far as I'm concerned it's okay for a map like this to come to a technically undemanding climax sometimes--as long as it comes to a climax!

Largely unrelated to the map itself, but it also affords me an opportunity to mention a small gripe I have about one of the project's aesthetic design decisions--this map of course uses "Into Sandy's City" instead of "Running From Evil" (appropriate enough considering it's a facsimile of a city done in Sandy's style and all), and apparently it's the only map in the set (not counting the secret maps) that has had its music track changed from the default IWAD tracklist. I reckon there's probably some rational reason why, but I'd have very much liked to see the music changed, by which I simply mean 'have the stock music reshuffled somewhat.' Perhaps the intent was to allow players to use IDMUS to change the track to whatever seems most appropriate to them for a given map (which is probably what I'll start doing in map 16 and on), but I'd have found the changed music selections to have been just as interesting a stylistic detail as the misalignments, gravity-defying legs, artistically vomited item placement, and things of that nature. It occurred to me that perhaps it was left mostly unchanged because the D2TWiD maplist synchs up very closely by author (that is, imitated id author) with the map/author listing of the IWAD (e.g. "Message for the Archvile" only appears in Romero maps in Doom II, and lo and behold, D2TWiD has Romero-style maps in slots 20 and 26), but.....Alfonzo has already said this overlap between D2TWiD and the IWAD was simply coincidental, so, I dunno. Seems like a wasted opportunity to me....imagine the histrionic arguments we could have about whether or not it's detrimental to authenticity to have "Shawn's Got the Shotgun" playing on a map that's not based around some kind of looming central proving ground, that sort of thing.

[mouldy]

Map16 - “Cul-de-sac” by Pavera

This one killed me a lot at the start, no so much in the initial scramble for weapons, but when it came to pick a direction to go in I kept getting killed by long range snipers. It certainly makes good use of those, chaingunners, revenants, arachnotrons and mancubus, pinning you down and picking you off from distances that would have probably rendered them invisible in 1994 resolution. One of the deadliest parts for me was just getting the SSG, for some reason I decided to take out the monsters guarding it but kept getting annihilated by chaingunners lurking in the darkness. In the end I just grabbed it and ran, and eventually the map led me back to those bastards anyway. After reaching the tipping point where I was tooled up enough to not worry about getting killed, it became all about the secrets. The computer map on display just out of reach is a clue that there is a lot going on behind the scenes, though the first secret I found being hidden on the automap anyway didn't bode well. Turned out a lot of random wall humping was in order, and even that only got me half of them. Eventually I discovered that most of the ones evading me were locked within another secret, but still there was one I had to cheat to find. This was a decent map, very much in the doom 2 mould even though it didn't particularly remind me of any original maps, it has that flavour of obscurity and playfulness in the design, along with some "fuck you, deal with it" gameplay.

[Magnusblitz]

MAP31: Vorticon

Well, this is certainly interesting. I've never played Commander Keen, so I can't comment on authenticity there, but it does look (and feel a bit) like playing an old 8-bit (16-bit?) game. My complaint is that the level feels a bit too large at times, though I would make the same complaint about the IWAD's MAP31 as well (one enemy just isn't all that interesting after awhile). The secret exit is a bit of a bitch to find since it does require killing all of at least one type of enemy (can't tell which one, but I had 122/123 kills and the switch opened) and some are hidden in secrets. But still pretty impressive.

MAP32: Well of Wishes

Dopefish! Just a one-on-one battle with the fiendish creature, which is deadlier than one might think. I used the invisibility sphere and BFG (ah, continuous play...) to make quick work of him though. For some reason, I'm actually very impressed by the starting view, turning into a jump down into the pool, I had to check the map to make sure it wasn't violating some laws of Doom physics.

[cannonball]

Desperate attempt to catch up
Map13 - “The Wharf” by Marcaek
This felt very rough around the edges in terms of visuals (even for Sandy). But I felt the gameplay was very nice indeed. Plenty of nasty threats and a neat cyber reveal. Can't ask for much more, ok the secrets were a bonus too.

Map14 - “Flooded Library” by Jimmy
Reasonably fun but easy map. Not sure about the design, it strays a little too close between the natural style of the author and the intended style of McGee.

[Jaws In Space]

Doom 2 The Way ID Did- MAP 16: HMP, Continuous, Keyboard Only

This map was decent, it was nice to play a map that I can clearly say that it didn't remind me of any of the IWAD maps in any way. I will say that this map seemed pretty slow compared to the previous few city maps, so it was a nice leisurely pace to get through. It did seem to have a fairly strange progression & felt quite linear for a Sandy map. It's been nice to see a fairly consistent theme of a flooded city throughout the past few maps, was this intentional of simply coincidence?

[Demon of the Well]

Map 31 -- Vorticon - 100% Kills / 100% Secrets
Going to try not to drop such a profuse textbomb for this one, as it and map 32 have probably been discussed more than all of the other maps combined prior to now (outside of this thread, I mean). The theme's a natural leap that ties in nicely with the secret levels in the IWAD; unfortunately I can't really relate to them in the same way--don't get the references, don't recognize the setting, etc.--as I've never played Commander Keen. There are interesting parallels with the Wolf3D levels at work here--for example, the Wolf3D levels are overscaled relative to what's in Doom itself and made out of chunky, overscaled textures; the environments in Vorticon are equally spacious, yet appear to be made out of tiny blocks and other components generally much smaller than the standard Doom scale, nowhere more evident than the series of narrow little doors that block the normal exit, doesn't even look like Doomguy can fit through them (though he does, of course). Broadly speaking, it's also similar in that the combat is boring/tedious as hell, and unfortunately my lack of prior experience with Commander Keen means that the nostalgia angle is lost on me in this regard; of course, the blocks of SS Nazis are really just as boring to fight, but having played Wolf3D before I was at least able to appreciate the amusement of gibbing them en masse with BFG shots the first time I found how to reach map 31.

Whereas the Wolf3D maps in Doom 2 are really just a cheap/quick easter egg and little more (especially for someone who recognizes the floorplans), however, Vorticon has a lot more substance to its construction and in its heavily exploration-focused gameplay (though perhaps these aspects would be diminished by knowledge of the source material as well...?). The combat sucks, sure, but the stylized 'stage select' setup and the varied platforming/puzzle/secret-hunting setups (a few of which are again quite clever) of the stages bespeak something into which a lot more love and care was poured than the simple in-jokey bodge-job that was the Wolf3D secret; the build quality despite the simple art resources is quite apparent. I admit the music track really started bugging the piss out of me after a while, but eh, given the theme here, no harm done.

Random trivia: Despite the non-event that is the combat, I actually died for the first time in this playthrough in this map, falling into a death-pit in the expansive secret area behind the walls in the 'church-lab' (???) stage. D'oh!

Map 32 -- Well of Wishes - 100% Kills / 50% Secrets
Heh, who'd have thought something that essentially amounts to a jumped-up lost soul could be so formidable? Very straightforward setup here, but I appreciate that the stage is surprisingly large (so you can savor some tension while you and the Dopefish initially search for each other), and that the fish is so damned fast that you have to take him seriously. My strategy was to lead him to the central room you first fall into with the various rock pillars, we danced around them while I periodically pelted him with the SSG until victory was mine. He took a pretty good chunk or two out of my ass while we were still off in the maze, though, so my respects to a worthy (and hungry) opponent. If I decide to visit the secret levels in D2TWiD next time I play it (I skip them without a thought when I play Doom II now, incidentally), it'll be to see this fellow again. I certainly appreciate the work that went into Vorticon, but again, my lack of a connection to/with Commander Keen means that a lot of its charm is lost on me, leaving only the weak action and the puzzles, which of course are usually not as entertaining after the first time you've solved them.

[Magnusblitz]

MAP16: Cul-de-sac
96% kills, 5/11 secrets

This one didn't really grab me in any positive manner. I wasn't sure who was supposed to be the emulated author, I actually thought it might be a Shawn Green map, but apparently it's supposed to be Petersen. Not really getting the Sandy vibe here, apart from the red key room being cordoned off by a teleporter and with the moving floors.

Not really much of note here... the snipers are really the only thing that stand out, the rest is pretty ho-hum killing demons and imps and the occasional hell knight in hallways.

[pavera]

Cul-de-sac was definitely one of the earliest of the maps deemed authentic enough to be in the wad, and I think it shows for sure. I like it purely on the notion of it being an important milestone in my development as a map maker, but it's kind of become my least favorite of my D2TWID three.

Actually, jaws, I'm surprised to see you say the most positive things about this map out of my three submissions! I consider the boiler to be my best submission for sure, though I'm glad you got some enjoyment out of this. :)

The only thing I still really really like about this map is the lift room. It's the kind of "fuck it, we'll do it live" moment that I always loved seeing in Doom 2, and I'm proud to have pissed off a few players with it.

Last bit: if you squint, the map is actually shaped kind of like a penis. Intentional.

[Demon of the Well]

Map 16 -- Cul-de-sac - 100% Kills / 100% Secrets
And Pavera does it again, another map identifiably in the target author's style that is reminiscent of nothing but that style, as opposed to specific iterations of it (though I assume the name at least is a conscious reference to Suburbs). Cool setting this time, in that abstract way that Doom does so well...of course the big, rollicking Sandyshapes on offer here, and the polyglot jumble of textures adorning them (goth stuff, wood, vines, cement, bricks of all sizes and colors, and on and on) don't even remotely resemble any sort of real-world setting, but the juxtaposition of the flooded, fractured ruins-cum-infernal-outpost exterior areas with the gloomy, disorienting, oddly-shaped interior zones littered with candles and torches and other demonic artifacts certainly stimulates the imagination. This is magnified by the continuing water theme that Jaws mentioned....a great dam somewhere was destroyed during the initial invasion, flooding most of the city's outer suburban areas; those few who survived this disaster were inevitably snatched by demons as they moved through these outer reaches to establish a fortified zone (remember, in D2TWiD as in Doom II, the major Hellgate is in the heart of the city); as to their specific fates, perhaps we can draw some conclusions from the displays of mutilated corpses found suspiciously nearby the bizarre netherworld shrine in the eastern interior reaches. Fun stuff, imagining up some kind of sense to the Doomy abstractness....I get pretty good impressions from Sandy's maps, myself, and also from Romero's, but less so McGee's, perhaps one of those difficult-to-articulate reasons why his stuff doesn't appeal to me as much (though so far his D2TWiD emulations have been stronger in this regard).

Anyway, this map feels a little bit like a racetrack of sorts (albeit one with a lot of pitstops, optional and otherwise), which does remind me of certain other Pavera maps--you end up running one particular circuit quite a few times if you intended to see/do everything, which has its downsides, but more on that in a moment. There's much more of an ammo stockpile around the start area in this one, but once again pistol-starters will have a goodly amount of ground to cover before being able to advance beyond the most basic weaponry, which in this case will involve stirring up or stumbling into any number of hornets' nests. That being said, it's not a terribly threatening map, precisely because it tends to be so open and spacious--plenty of room for dodging and using Doomguy's raw footspeed, and doesn't really force you to deal with things you'd rather not outside of a couple of one-way teleports. For the most part I found it enjoyable, but it does tend to evince a certain downside (or something I personally see as a downside, anyway) to a lot of Sandy's maps....that being that it's easy, even likely, to kill 90% of the monsters in layouts like this while you're only 25% done progressing through the map, thus leaving you to wander about in silence flipping switches and collecting keys and whatnot so you can leave...all rather anticlimactic, really, especially when it still happens even outside of maps that aren't sandboxes per se. Granted, in this particular instance I did make this a little worse for myself by insisting on finding all the secrets, but while I'm fond of Sandy's maps as a generality, this is one aspect that I think his colleagues (particularly Romero) tended to handle better than he did.

[ella guro]

Map11 - “The Garrison” by Pavera

despite the beginning, a generally pretty friendly map. great visuals, as others have said. the obvious Tenements vibe at the beginning, but also The Abandoned Mines with all the cages in darkness, and pieces of the Living End and E4M2 in there as well. i genuinely liked the design of this map and i especially liked the side areas to the right broken up by the cages where the BFG is, and also the big circular area with the blue key on a raised platform in the center (which for whatever reason is what made me think of E4M2). i think this is definitely stronger from a map design/layout perspective than it is from a gameplay one, but that's never been a thing to bother me too much. all in all GJ on this one.

Map12 - “The Shipyard” by Esselfortium

even though The Factory is clearly the first thing i think of (esp because of the texture theme and sky), i can see how this was might have been a lot more influenced by maps like Mt. Erebus or The Citadel. i like how small this map is, but how that doesn't really hinder the challenge at all. it also aesthetically just looks very pleasant, especially the opening view. it has the typical Sandy action of going around to distinct rooms and working out where to go from there, except there's only a side area or two off the center path. i liked the center concrete lava area with the lift the most, and the progression feels good because the map is so compact. the small little blue key trap is a perfect example of a totally annoying and stupid Sandy trap ala the memorable trap from the Courtyard, but it obviously fits the style. just generally a pretty tight map that doesn't outstay its welcome.

Map13 - “The Wharf” by Marcaek

i don't really know that this vaguely nautical theme existed in either Doom 1 or 2, but that's maybe why i like this map a lot. it's not without annoying Sandy moments like the Mancubi on lifts in cramped quarters on the left side of the map that royally sucks if you pistol start and don't have better than a shotgun or chaingun by that point. several cool secrets that involve navigating around by use or teleporters or interconnected platforming. it's not maybe as big or twisty as it might seem from the outset, but it definitely works. i like the way you open the secret to the plasma rifle/SSG also, and i like the layout of the berserk area with the demons a lot - those kind of rooms are kind of what is best about Sandy's style for me. a random lift trap to a key that seems to happen a lot in this mod - or at least both in the previous map and map 15 also shows up here towards the end.

the map seems kinda impenetrable from the outset on pistol start, but once you're able to pick up a chaingun and berserk pack things start to calm down - until the cacos and cyberdemon is unleashed anyway. good introduction to the cyberdemon btw. the annoying random teleporter to the invulnerability sphere is also a very Sandy thing so i guess i can't complain too much.

Map14 - “Flooded Library” by Jimmy

pretty neat library themed level. i can definitely see the American McGee influence, but even with that this does feel more like a PWAD map than nearly anything else in the set so far. it's well designed, reasonably fun to play, and the cramped quarters are a good contrast to the maps that come before and after, and it's not nearly as trolly as the Sandy maps. it still didn't stand out that much to me though. maybe it's just not that i don't tend to be crazy about Library-themed maps in general. i'm struggling in general with things to say about this one, so i'll just leave it at that.

Map15 - “The Causeway” by Tarnsman

definitely a Downtown map, though the beginning room is a nod back to the beginning of The Suburbs and the moat and secrets are an obvious nod to The Industrial Zone. i agree that this doesn't feel as tight when put up against 12 & 13, but it i suppose it compares well to the original Downtown and Suburbs. there's no question this is a Sandy Petersen map, to the wide, disjointed variety of texture themes used and types of areas traversed (even if some of them individually feel underbaked) - there's a tech area, a library area, a marble area, a storage area, there's a room with a key that turns into an enemy trap, etc. also it has those weird authentic touches like the circular red room with the blue key teleporting you back to the lift area before you step onto the lift. it doesn't make too much sense to me to choose to do that outside the context of Sandy weirdness, but there you go.

there sure is a lot of lift weirdness in the Sandy levels in this megawad in general, from the central one in Map 12 to the one dividing areas in Map 10 to the weird puzzle stuff in Map 09 to this one. i guess i can't complain that much because the general vibe of his design is there, but it seems funny to me that that one idea keeps getting repeated in particular because i don't remember it being so ubiquitous as it is here.

the confrontation at the end was neat and not uncalled for at all, esp with the invulnerability sphere, because i like anything that can reuse space like that effectively. in general i'd say this map does its job, even if it feels a bit less tight than the earlier Sandy E2 maps.

Map31 - “Vorticon” by Xaser & Megalyth
Map32 - “Well of Wishes” by Xaser

A+

fav maps so far are 5, 8, 12, and the secret maps (map 11 is a runner-up).

[mouldy]

Map17 - “The Precinct” by Tarnsman

This map has a lot of bite at the start, attack from all angles, distant snipers, precarious cliff edges, and a layout that invites panic and confusion. Surviving the beginning and methodically clearing out the entrenched opposition pulls most of its teeth though, and other than a couple of optional excursions into the abyss the route is quite firmly set. It still has unpredictable moments, the archvile trap was quite a treat, and I liked the leap of faith plasma gun secret. On the whole it felt a bit similar to 'the gorge' and 'the garrison', but without such a sense of exploration or threat. I think maybe the higher difficulty of some of the recent maps made this one feel a bit tame, but its still quite a buzz to survive the pistol start.

[Alfonzo]

Developer's Notes:

...
MAP13: The Wharf
As the contributors of D2TWiD worked tirelessly to tweak, tamper or otherwise overhaul their creations in final a bid for authenticity, a MAP13-sized hole was beginning to form in the middle of the mapset. Zodiac, whose promising Shawn Green map "The Docks" was penned in for inclusion at this point, had gone missing, and the question was being raised as to what would fill the slot if he didn't return. Marcaek answered this question in the form of a much-needed cityscape map called The Wharf.

I don't recall much of this map's development process, although like MAP19 it required a last-minute dumbing down in the texture department so as to not appear too schizophrenic. Water was not originally meant to be featured in the central area, as Marcaek has already noted, but was poured in to complement the shapes and height variation that he had opted for, as well as to help further distinguish it from Downtown (more on this later when I get to MAP15, which also compares to Sandy's de facto city map and faced the same issues). I think the results are pretty good! The progression is a little bit more calculated compared to either of the Sandybox maps in Doom 2, but it still has that distinctively Sandy brand of scrambling around for armaments and purchase, and it still feels just as delightful to explore.

...
MAP14: Flooded Library
If there's one thing I've learned when it comes to the difficulty of mapping for something like D2TWiD, it's that it's probably a lot easier to slip into someone else's style when you don't really have one of your own to abolish.* I made my first map for Doom with DTWiD in 2010, and while it took a couple of attempts to churn out something even remotely resembling a map by id (I guess I was also learning some other fundamentals on the trot), it's maps like Flooded Library that prove the going might have been tougher had I started from an older slate.

Jimmy's sole successful submission is decidedly a McGee map (why else would it be in the set!) but it has a long and turbulent history that begins with a very "Jimmy" endeavour. You might look upon it as a sort of wonky satellite that had to be battered into shape by a prolonged blitz of passing asteroids. At first it was too much like Waste Tunnels, and then too much like Inmost Dens, and then it had a total seizure of Identity crises. Water was drained; lights were removed; carpets were rolled up and shipped back to Paddocksville... It took at least 8 major revisions, but Jimmy got there in the end. Almost entirely unassisted, too!

*Having more than just a basic understanding of editing for Doom is obviously a plus, but it's the lack of any habitual tendencies that need to be overcome, here. The kind that've been nurtured over an extensive history of work and couldn't be beaten out of you with a rolling pin.

TRIVIA:

1. Leave it In™ strikes again in the form of a rather surreptitious leg! Rumour has it that when Marcaek was fishing around for a pair of light amplification goggles he accidentally pinned a leg to the sky and called it a day. You should feel priviLEGed to bear witness to this aerial hunk of manflesh.
2. MAP14's Yellow Key is indeed pointless.
3. You can indeed skip the vast majority of MAP14 by means of a questionably placed switch. Leave it In™

[cannonball]

Map15 - “The Causeway” by Tarnsman
This map was pretty tough to get going and finding the yellow key early on did not help matters, that room is cruel. Otherwise it's a decent non-linear shootout with plenty of demons to kill.
One complaint would be that the secret exit was rather easy to find (found it before the normal exit).

[dew]

cannonball said:

One complaint would be that the secret exit was rather easy to find (found it before the normal exit).

Then again, the normal exit takes like 5 seconds with a glide. Because Tarnsman thought glides were harder, or something, I don't even know. He created that exit 5 minutes before the release and everyone laughed at his Suburbs-like mistake.

[Demon of the Well]

Map 17 -- The Precinct - 100% Kills / 75% Secrets
Ah, here we go. A Romero map that has some teeth. The player is under threat from a gaggle of distant imps from the instant the game loads, a foreshadowing of what's to come--moreso than any other aspect of Romero's combat design, this map emphasizes his focus on establishing overlapping fields of fire for the monsters by way of a complex tangle of ledges, overlooks, cage-walled walkways, distant windows, and the like. Moving down the lift at the start, the player has no choice but to commandeer some basic weaponry from the clutches of the foul-tempered sacks of rotting meat milling about on the lower landing, and will quickly find that there really is no place to stand where one won't be getting pelted with shit by something--so of course the answer is DON'T look for a place to stand. Move on, deeper into the Precinct, and you'll eventually find yourself coming out to the main area from a different vantage with a better overview of the situation. The map does simmer down significantly after the opening moments, but still has a trick or two up its sleeve, ala the blue key deadfall.

So, in my opinion, the map definitely plays better than the previous two Romero maps did--almost like night and day in terms of pitch, despite using many of the same basic tools (lots of distant ledge-snipers, etc.). The question of authenticity here is thus another of those interesting ones; while it's probably not meet to make too strong a proclamation about his style given that the majority of Tarnsman's major body of work is currently unreleased (with the stuff he has released either being comprised largely of speedmaps or largely disowned by the man himself), from what little I have seen of his stuff there's a lot about the feel of this map that strikes me as being very Tarnsman as opposed to histrionically Romero, particularly the fast-paced start. I reckon it's more a question of degree than anything--sure, in more than one of the Doom II maps Romero starts you in a position where monsters can see/attack you as soon as the game loads, but the pace at which 'I need to get moving' accelerates into 'clusterfuck' is much sharper and more decisive in The Precinct than in any of those (although perhaps Abandoned Mines approaches it). Similarly, it feels more efficient/concise in flow somehow, perhaps because so much of the population introduces itself to you at the outset, although looking at the layout on the map and comparing it with Romero's Doom II maps it looks like it's pretty much in line with most of them in regards to the amount of map space it takes up.

So, it's Romero, no doubt, but has some of the flavor of 'Romero on a caffeine high' or something like that. At any rate, it's good to see a map in his style offer up some tighter play...now we'll wait and see if there'll be a somewhat weird/experimental outlier Romero map, analogous to map 20 from Doom II.

[cannonball]

dew said:

Then again, the normal exit takes like 5 seconds with a glide. Because Tarnsman thought glides were harder, or something, I don't even know. He created that exit 5 minutes before the release and everyone laughed at his Suburbs-like mistake.

Heh, I in hindsight I think I saw that early in the level and then completely forgot about it. That's what a long day at work does to you :

Map31 - “Vorticon” by Xaser & Megalyth

I appreciate the amount of work that went into this, the artistry and design, but I felt this map outstayed it's welcome and just dragged after a while. I think this map could have been shorter.

Map32 - “Well of Wishes” by Xaser
Nice little one on one boss battle here, really like the design. Not much else to say.

I must say the secret levels here are a lot better than the original IWad so major thumbs up for that.

Edit there's more

Map16 - “Cul-de-sac” by Pavera
This map plays a lot faster than the previous Sandy maps, and makes an excellent change. I really enjoyed this one. Plenty of nasty traps but plenty of ammo and weaponry to spare. The multi-secret was a neat touch and very Sandy in that regard.

[Magnusblitz]

MAP17: The Precinct
96% kills, 3/4 secrets

Definitely back in Romeroland with all the cages, overlooking ledges, hallways above outdoor sludge areas, and window connections. The start feels like it'll have some teeth to it, but Mr. Rocket Launcher takes care of the problems easily (something not so easy on pistol starts). It feels a bit too short though, both this and MAP16 have felt like much quicker, bite-sized maps than some of the ones before it, weirdly enough. There was very little of the "Not sure what's head, I'm just gonna keep going this direction" journey that existed in the other maps, except for a brief bit near the end.

[Tarnsman]

dew said:

Then again, the normal exit takes like 5 seconds with a glide. Because Tarnsman thought glides were harder, or something, I don't even know. He created that exit 5 minutes before the release and everyone laughed at his Suburbs-like mistake.

No. The original exit room was very un-sandy (his exits were exits and nothing else in the room) so I made it optional and just stuck the exit in next to it and didn't even realize I left that 32 unit gap.

[Jaws In Space]

Doom 2 The Way ID Did- MAP 17: HMP, Continuous, Keyboard Only

Oh boy, lets talk about Romero maps for a second here because I'm seeing a quite noticeable lack of variety texture wise in the 3 Romero maps played so far. To me it seems that everyone so far has taken only the texturing of Abandon Mines & Tenements as inspiration when making these Romero maps, which is basically Metal everywhere. Now lets go back to Doom 2 & see if this is the right course of action to take. In Circle Of Death Metal is used surprisingly sparingly, the main place that is used is in the Arch-Vile room & also to an extent beyond the red key door. Aside from that though it's only used in a few places, so instead of Metal the Zimmer & Stone textures are the primary texture of use & give the map a very unique look to it compared to the rest of the Romero maps. Next we have Industrial Zone, Metal is definitely used more often here as it is the primary texture of 2 structures, the exit room & the stairs building, but still in the grand scheme of the map Metal maybe accounts of about 10% to 20% of the entire map. As far as similarity in the 2 maps goes there is now way anyone could confuse Circle of Death & Industrial Zone. Now next up is Tenements, here is the first Romero map that uses Metal as the primary texture, it's just everywhere here, & still I couldn't confuse any of the 3 Romero maps so far as all 3 have very distinct styles. Then 3 maps later we have Gotcha! here Metal once again takes a backseat to other textures, now it is used here as the main texture of the Cyber/Spider fight & also the exit room, yet still this is again only a fraction of the entire map, I'm mean seriously when I say Gotcha! is the first thing that comes to your mind Metal? No its Rock textured buildings in a sea of blood. Okay now we have Abandon Mines, here is where things go south. This map, like Tenements, is a Metal heavy map, also it's got similar traps as well. The red key that releases Cacos from tenements is the blue key in Abandon Mines, while it's design style is used for the yellow key. This is the first map that I can say yes you might be able to show someone a random screenshot of the map & they might not correctly identify it as Tenements or Abandon Mines. Then we finish off with The Living End, were metal is used a few times throughout the map, but not in any way that I could say this room is Metal heavy, in fact it seems that the most Metal room is the Arch-Vile room were it's actually Wood5 as the primary texture. So of the 6 Romero maps only 2 have a similar design style & could possible be confused for one another.

Now lets compare that to first 3 maps from D2TWID. So our first Romero map in in the map 6 slot & it is definitely Metal heavy with a secondary texture usage of Stone6 & Wood to give it a Metal & Brown look. Next up is map 11 now the first issue here is the close proximity to the previous Romero map, while Tenements & Abandon Mines were 9 maps apart, these are only 5 maps apart so the design similarity's are still pretty fresh in the mind. This is without a doubt a Metal heavy map, but this time around the secondary theme is Zimmer & BrownGRN textures, giving this map a Metal & Green theme. Still there are lots of rooms here that look similar to map 6 & someone could easily confuse a random screen shot form one of these maps. Then we have map 17, I want to say that this is the least Metal heavy of the 3 maps, & yet it is still everywhere & now we have the problem of returning to a Metal & Brown theme, though this map uses a variety of Brown textures it still doesn't set itself, as far as textures go, apart form map 6 all that well. So for me if these Metal heavy Romero maps keep making appearances I feel that this project fails at it's goal as it is not the way Romero did it. Still there are Romero maps ahead so I could just be making an ass of myself, but after 3 Metal maps I'm pretty sure we will see more.

Anyways as far as the map itself goes, as you might have guessed, I didn't like it all that much. Some things that I did like was the hectic start with almost no safe place to stand as monster were firing from all directions. Also this map had good use of Specters, you couldn't see them. The Pain Elementals started to get pretty annoying after the first few & the Arch-Vile was a non event for me as I suspected a trap, so I had the Plasma Rifle ready. I will say that I think this is the best Romero map so far, but only because it was so short.

So sorry to everyone who made a Romero map, but these maps are just not enjoyable for me at all.

[dew]

I just want to say I find your logic faulty and your premises questionable.

[Tarnsman]

Here is Romero's metal usage.

Map 11 - 452 of 1195 (37%)
Map 15 - 824 of 2361 (34%)
Map 17 - 907 of 1847 (49%)
Map 20 - 535 of 1448 (36%)
Map 26 - 918 of 1184 (77%)
Map 29 - 400 of 1653 (24%)

That is just the textures that are 100% metal. If you include stuff like WOODMET, WOOD5 or other textures that include parts of metal.

Map 11 - 452 of 1195 (37%)
Map 15 - 1058 of 2361 (44%)
Map 17 - 1027 of 1847 (55%)
Map 20 - 543 of 1448 (37%)
Map 26 - 918 of 1184 (77%)
Map 29 - 582 of 1653 (35%)

So no map is without at least 35% Metal to other shit. E4 of UDoom continues this trend with E4M2 being 635 of 1014 (62%) and E4M6 being 738 of 1963 (37%)

For D2TWID it works out to

Map 06 - 1214 of 1910 (63%)
Map 11 - 927 of 1769 (52%)
Map 17 - 481 of 1080 (44%)
Map 20 - 921 of 1888 (48%)
Map 22 - 539 of 1512 (35%)
Map 26 - 769 of 1283 (60%)
Map 29 - 650 of 2158 (30%)

So the biggest change is 2 back to back +50% metal maps also those maps spread their metal throughout instead of isolating it, but other than that it's mostly in the 35 to 50% range that Romero worked in because the man loved metal.

Also ZIMMER*, TANROCK*, WOOD*, and BIGBRIK* are all repeated enough through Romero's maps that yes, you can take a shot from ANY or of his maps and pretend it's another map. Like parts of Tenements can double as The Abandon Mines, or Circle of Death, or Industrial Zone, or The Living End.

[Jaws In Space]

That's a pretty bad way to determine how Metal is used throughout a map. Lets look at Industrial Zone. You say that there are 824 out of 2361 textures that are exclusively Metal or 37% of the map is Metal.

Now I gave the examples of the Exit Room & stairs building as the primary metal structures, so lets take a look at those buildings.

Stairs Building is made up of 139 Metal textures.
The exit room past the blue door only is 161 Metal textures.

So that's 300 Metal textures in those 2 areas alone or 36% of all metal textures in the entire map.

Now if you include the bridge & the entire area past the yellow door & that satellite building next to the stairs building you get 448 out of 824 Metal textures, or 54% of the maps Metal contained within those 5 areas. That is not at all an even distribution of Metal throughout a map, where as with the 3 maps from D2TWID that we've played so far Metal is evenly distributed throughout the maps as it is done in Tenements & Abandon Mines. I'm not here saying that John Romero didn't use Metal, I'm saying that you guys keep doing Tenements & Abandon Mines textured Romero maps & nothing else. At this paint in Doom 2 we had 2 Romero maps with pretty vast areas lacking Metal & 1 Metal heavy map. At this point in D2TWID we have 3 Metal heavy maps.

[Tarnsman]

I pointed that out, "those maps spread their metal throughout instead of isolating it". Romero did do this however in Tenements, Abandoned Mines, E4M2 and E4M6. Also in Gotcha, the 3 primarily metal areas (the spider fight, the exit room, and the plasma gun room) take up a great deal of the maps overall non-damaging liquid area, even more if you count the exterior of one of the buildings that is literally just METAL.

Also it should be noted that Industrial Zone is a big outlier in Romero's Doom 2 mapping and was likely the first Doom 2 map he made (as evidenced by the promotional shots when the map was entirely MARBLE - akin to E4M6) and was likely re-textured as new textures were made.

[Demon of the Well]

I don't think the texture usage in the Romero maps is particularly skewed away from what Romero used in the IWAD (I say this based on instinctive impression, as opposed to on mathematical calculations). Speaking in primarily aesthetic terms, I think the aspect of the style that has tended to be least faithfully replicated in the D2TWiD Romero maps is simply raw scale of distance/height--the maps in this WAD seem significantly more spacious in general, particularly the two Romero maps I've seen by Esselfortium (I have played ahead a little bit). That being said, texture ratios and incidental geometrical scaling aside, a lot of what defines a Romero Doom II map is not just the way it looks but also the way in which it is traversed--i. e. a lot of circuitous pathfinding with generally efficient use of map space (so the few markedly overscaled areas are a little off-model in that sense) with a marked emphasis on continuously changing position on the vertical axis (sometimes suddenly, often more gradually) throughout the duration of the path through the level. In this sense, they've all pretty much been bang-on, and in other pertinent ways as well, e.g. the abundance of different vantages afforded at various points in level progression.

I wouldn't quite agree that it would be easy to confuse the different D2TWiD Romero maps with one another on a broad thematic level, either, although I suppose I can see how one might in a couple of cases....map 06 and map 11 did feel more similar to me than any other two maps targeting a particular id author up to point in the WAD I've played, but I reckon that's more a function of the somewhat uneventful, cruise-control gameplay that features in both of them rather than one of them being highly similar as regards the specifics of decor or layout (or indeed, as regards the fact that they are both attempts at replicating one man's specific style). Regardless, if the argument is that there's too little thematic variation between the Romero maps to the point where it's causing a major authenticity fault, I'm not feeling it, myself. Map 17 moves away from the first two Romero maps very markedly in the realm of gameplay and also in regards to the scale issue I mentioned, map 20 is pretty much off in its own little world (making it a very interesting/memorable offering, but also perhaps the most off-model), and map 22 (which is the latest map I've actually played) is very much cast in the mold of the late-game Romero paradigm, rather than the E2-centric style of the first few.

Suffice to say that if you've played up to map 17 and are getting tired of seeing beige and bars and dark metal, you don't have much longer to wait before the Romero-likes start doing a thematic 180.

[ella guro]

Map16 - “Cul-de-sac” by Pavera

prior talk about this map led me to believe this was kind of a weak link in the set. while that's true aesthetically, i actually found the gameplay fun and enjoyable and found this overall pretty imaginative and much of what's good about Sandy's levels. the initial scramble for weapons was fun, though once you're in the passageways that kind of combat kind of disappears from the map and it becomes more scattered and close-quarters. i guess there's a bit of a Courtyard connection, but this definitely felt a lot like an Episode 2 maps than anything in Doom 2 in a lot of places. especially in the odd, unconventional progression. and stuff like the key door that just opens to closet with another key. or the square room with tons of moving floors (which i always loved in E2M3 and love just as much here). or that goofy multi-secret with the moving Aranchnotron platforms from the beginning that lead you to be ridiculously overpowered at the end of the map. in general, i'd say this map has a high concentration of goofy Sandy-isms but they don't feel as mean or nasty as in other maps.

the flow seems kind of clunky and arbitrary, but somehow it works to this particular map's favor. you think one place is just some side room and it turns out to be the required path. it's almost like an old Memento Mori map or something. it has a slight naivete to it that makes it charming. i dunno, overall this is not winning any aesthetic awards compared to other stuff in the set, but i enjoyed it.

Map17 - “The Precinct” by Tarnsman

good, intense Romero outing that doesn't outstay its welcome - sort of in the vein of "O" of Destruction i guess. i survived the beginning on pistol start by hiding in the well-placed backpack secret and sniping at the hitscanners and imps. pretty neat, actually. thankfully Tarnsman gives you the SSG towards the beginning which makes things more manageable, but no less intense. i totally ate it on the archvile trap the first time around, particularly because that's one of the most intense confrontations seen yet in this megawad, but that does make it effective (even when it is that same "drop down and get mobbed by enemies in close quarters" thing that a lot of maps here have had, but i guess it's a pretty common Doom design trope in general). gameplay-wise this is definitely the tightest of the Romero maps, and probably the one i'd have the biggest desire to replay for that reason. the complicated interconnecting rooms feel more purposeful and less like a design cliche here in general. there's no one really memorable area outside the main one, but it works well as a whole.

like Map 12, i guess tend to just have a soft spot for maps not outstaying their welcome. i think i'd like to see a set of TWID-style maps generally around that size with a few scattered big ones, because those are leaving the biggest impression on me.

Map18 - “The Sanctum” by RottKing

RottKing's Map01 was super short, but i really liked it anyway. this may be my favorite map in the set up to this point. more than anything else in the set, it made me feel like i was playing Doom for the first time again. except instead of like Doom 2 and its most obvious signpost of The Citadel (which i'd consider maybe the most underrated D2 map, but that's another story), the sense of atmosphere made it feel much more like part of Doom 1 Episode 3, or a bigger, more expanded version of Episode 3.

i dunno, i was just really feeling this one. the green marble/stone with vines texture theme already has just always been one of my favorites, and its used for maximum atmosphere here. i feel like while a lot of maps in this set have an accurate atmosphere or tight gameplay, they don't really jump out to me beyond the bounds of this set. this map just goes a couple steps further and feels more fully-realized. except i wish it was longer! it was decently challenging but i made it through on the first attempt, albeit with low health because of some poor reflexes. in general, a more exploratory map, which is what i tend to prefer (when what you're exploring is interesting anyway!). i missed a vast majority of the secrets so i'll have to go back and replay it again. love that secret in the first room, btw. it totally screwed up my spatial sense of where things were on the map, which maybe made me like it even more. great map!

[mouldy]

Map18 - “The Sanctum” by RottKing

Wow this map was so full of secrets, literally the first thing I did was discover a secret that took me to some unknown part of the map. I love those kind of secrets that make you feel like you are breaking the map by allowing you to access areas in the wrong order, it reminded me of The Courtyard and The Citadel in that respect. You have this feeling of delving deeper and deeper into some place you aren't meant to be. Amazingly I got all 13 secrets, maybe i remembered a few from last time I played it.. The BFG I got by strafe jumping off a bridge, I'm assuming you must be able to it with normal running though, or maybe I cheated. Anyway, the monsters seemed to take a back-seat to the exploration here, not that there wasn't enough of them, but there was so much ammo lying around that they were mincemeat for the most part. My only death was from panicking at a lowering floor trap and backing into a deadly pit of blood (though I discovered a new secret just as I died, which was handy). I would have loved this map back in 1994, so damn mysterious and unpredictable.

[cannonball]

Map17 - “The Precinct” by Tarnsman
This map felt too easy in my view and in fact felt like it could have slotted in around map11, even the BFG secret evokes the sense of deja vu to map11 of this wad. The initial scramble was pretty intense but after that the map just was a breeze to get around.
The map succeeds in imitating it's destined author, the map looks nice and the traps are solid enough so I can't complain really.

[Magnusblitz]

MAP18: The Sanctum
96% kills, 4/13 secrets

I agree with mouldy that I really like the sort of maps that has secrets that let you completely traverse areas of the map and feel like "breaking" it, which is what I did from the start as well. I only got a few secrets, so definitely some room for replayability here. The map has that odd sense of emptiness despite having 223 monsters, as the monsters tend to be clumped in different ambushes. Despite most of them being imps and demons, the combat works here, as the encounters are set up in ways that keep it fresh and interesting. Great map.

[cannonball]

Map18 - “The Sanctum” by RottKing
Another rather easy one, mostly due to the major protagonists being imps and demons. Still this was nice to play. Good flow and design and plenty of secrets. Again it fits the Sandy design nicely. I too found the early secret and explored areas which should be off limits. Though I left with 8 secrets still to get and 20 monsters left to kill. Cool map.

[purist]

Had another stint on this the other day. So some skimmed thoughts on the maps I played:

MAP06

A Romero style map appearing earlier in the megawad than his first did in Doom II. I have no problem with this. In fact, the fun of this project is to repeatedly ask the question "what if?".

So, what if Romero made an early E1 map? Well, it wasn't overly impressed by the level itself, allowing for the aforementioned early slot it still feels out of place because the scale of it seems too large. I also found the gameplay rather non-descript and it didn't help that I got lost for quite a while (the area near the blood pool close to the finish looked to me like somewhere I'd already been. It does look like a Romero construct, just not a particularly interesting one in my opinion.


MAP07

I really loved this one. I like that first impressions suggest this is going to be a rough ride but you can quickly get a foothold and then reverse fortunes in your favour. I can imagine if this was an IWAD level it would be talked about in the same way that E2M8 is now.

I can see how this slot could cause headaches. If you're using the specials it would be silly not to make it trigger a grand effect yet in doing so it is then very hard not to fall into homage territory. This level does step into that camp but it is forgiven for being a lot of fun and somehow Sandy-esque AND appealing to me aesthetically.


MAP08

I've seen bits throughout D2TWID and I think this is the ugliest map in the bunch. Whilst other levels use Sandy's weird texture mixing I've found all the others to have positive stylistic elements. I did have fun running through it though, despite those flaws and the clunky progression.

So, this one was originally my draft submission for a late E1 ugly Sandy techbase. The idea was the start area would try to force the player to jump out of the large window and take the long route through the level, whereas as a tenacious player who can hold his own up there is rewarded with a shorter route.

It never really worked like that though and in any case several areas were replaced and the order of progression changed. I'm happy with this 'collaboration', though and some of Tarnsman's additions (the YK lift trap and AV reveal) really add something.


MAP09

In the original Doom II this is the map I normally decide to call it a day on and I thought this level would serve the same purpose for me again. The first time I played it, those already infamous raising platform puzzles caused me a lot of gip but this is the sort of level that, once you sort it out once, it because much more straight forward in repeat plays - which is very much a Sandy trait.

There's actually not a lot to it when you discount the optional areas so, although it's not the most fun level to play, it's memorable and inoffensive once you get to know it. Tarnsman also did a good job of making it have a Sandy Petersen appearance without resorting to just doing a purposely bad texturing job.


MAP10

Really enjoyed this one. There are multiple routes you can take but I never felt like I was running aimlessly. There's a lot of bold, striking architecture that I appreciate the look of and the layout wraps around in such a way that, even if you're not sure where you're going, you'll never be too far from where you want to be.

Almost every other map so far I have been able to pick out for criticism - either as a level in it's own right or it's emulation of the original game. I can't think of anything for this map though, which is high praise I guess.


MAP11

Another Romero-style map, this time by another author, but it left with a very similar impression as MAP06. This time at least it felt right for where it sits in the megawad but again, I don't remember any highlights.

There were sections in this that felt a little switch-hunty and the route to the exit seemed needlessly convoluted and tacked on, seemingly to serve the purpose of ending the map in a nicer spot. I'm not sure if this is also a feature of Romero's design but either way it was not something I was fond of.

I can't decide if the Romero levels underwhelming me so far is the fault of the authors for not taking risks or whether it was unavoidable when emulating Romero's style. It has been said enough already that Romero does not do variation but there must have been something about them because his levels never felt so mundane in Doom II or Thy Flesh Consumed.


Episode 1

I have actually played upto MAP14 but this seems like a good spot to stop writing because it's becoming essay-like. I really liked this episode. It takes a few maps to get going but once it does I think it outperforms Doom II.

Favourite D2TWiD E1 levels: MAP04, MAP07, MAP10
Favourite D2 E1 levels (for fun*): MAP02, MAP07, MAP11