The DWmegawad Club plays: MAYhem2048

[Memfis]

ssg can shoot higher

[Phil1984]

I just tried, and still can't hit it even with the SSG. Maybe I'm just incredibly stupid.

[Steve D]

I just did a -nomonsters test and I couldn't hit it with the SSG, either. I had enabled "mouselook" in GLBoom+, FWIW -- nothing, unless there's monsters to shoot at ;D -- so I did another test with mouselook off, and emptied 100 shells at the switch without success. I might have been able to pull it off if I was a mouser, because it seems like backing as far away as possible causes the buckshot to go higher, but that damned torch is in the way, and as a keyboarder with crappy directional control, I couldn't find the magic position.

Yeah, IMO this needs to be changed. It's hard to see how blasting away at this switch and losing ammo is worth 2 rockets. I got it on the first shot in GZDoom and Risen3D, though. ;)

Edit: Maybe you could put an Imp up there to draw fire?

[Magnusblitz]

MAP06: Serenity in the Air by Memfis
99% kills, 1/2 secrets

Well, the title and the music of this map are bullshit, because there's nothing serene about the amount of pain the hellspawn will be inflicting on you in these tight corners. I died a shit-ton on this map, especially at the start as I kept trying to run different places to escape the hitscanners only to unleash more monsters. Finally ended up deciding that going into the corner with nothing in it was the best move. The rest of the level was still difficult though, due to the lack of health (heck, at one point I got wasted by a single sergeant shot when I was at 40/33). And then the double arch-viles... heh. Still, it never got super frustrating, just left me with the feeling that if I were a better Doom player I'd be fine. There's a lack of ammo but it only forced me between weapons I may not want to use, not ever running out.

Looks-wise, it's very good looking, and the brown/grey/green theme goes great with the orange sky. I echo Demon that this map really does a good job taking advantage of being able to extend beyond the 2048x2048 boundary for looks and monsters - the entire western part of the yellow key is off-limits, but certainly looks like something the player would have fun exploring.

Re: the secret RL, I never would've noticed the switch had I not read about it here, just wayyyy too hidden. That said, it is possible to hit it with the SSG as Memfis says: Pic (at least in ZDoom with mouselook off). Lastly, I agree with Phobus, fuck this cacodemon.

EDIT: Just tested in PRBoom as well, was able to hit it when standing on the box in the previous room. Granted, it did take 5 shots... not really worth the ammo, I agree.

[CorSair]

I think I managed to get that rocket launcher, in PrBoom+. I think it's in the demo even...

[Steve D]

Magnusblitz said:

[b]EDIT: Just tested in PRBoom as well, was able to hit it when standing on the box in the previous room. Granted, it did take 5 shots... not really worth the ammo, I agree.

Magnus, you're a badass! I just did the same thing in GLBoom+ and got it after unloading 46 shells -- not a good idea in this map. ;D So Memfis is right, but I still think it should be changed.

Next question, how many people actually saw the switch, even if they knew where it was?

[Phil1984]

Finally got it! Standing on the box right up against the back wall was the key. Still I think it is far too obscure, and not worth the ammo to get 2 rockets.

But outside of that that, I still do enjoy this map.

[cannonball]

Map06 - "Serenity in the Air” by Memfis
The drop into the water pit was complete bullshit, do people even comprehend how badly hitscan weapons can work sometimes. So many deaths coming after all my shotgun pellet unload through a seemingly porous imp to then see the very same monster scratch me into oblivion.
Once that part of the map is done the rest is absolutely fine. Didn't even break a sweat on the double arch viles.
Start was difficult but fair, the underground section I hated and the rest was good stuff. Never found the secret everyone is going on about. But did claim a backpack after killing everything.
The map looks great by the way.

[Steve D]

CorSair said:

I think I managed to get that rocket launcher, in PrBoom+. I think it's in the demo even...

I was gonna say, "I officially hate you now," ;D, but after watching your demo, I counted 23 deaths, which made me feel good, and when you got the rocket launcher it was a lucky shot because an Imp had wandered over there to draw your fire. You then got killed after using the RL and never found it again. So, just like me, you never actually saw the switch, and thus, never actually figured out the secret. So you're still cool with me. ;)

I don't think Memfis will change it, given that we've now proven him right that it is possible to get the RL; extremely difficult, but possible. I still love the map, even with that annoyance.

[Steve D]

cannonball said:

Map06 - "Serenity in the Air” by Memfis
do people even comprehend how badly hitscan weapons can work sometimes. So many deaths coming after all my shotgun pellet unload through a seemingly porous imp to then see the very same monster scratch me into oblivion.

Is it because auto-aim spreads the buckshot among several nearby creatures, or is it because of RNG fuckery? I've seen Sergeants survive 4 oblique SSG blasts, and while testing one of my maps yesterday, a lone Imp survived a point-blank shotgun blast in the chest.

[Demon of the Well]

I was able to get the secret RL in a couple of shots, after Magnus' image showed me where to look for the impact trigger, so it's definitely possible--just extremely hard to spot. For the record, I don't personally take any issue with this secret--the RL is hardly necessary to beat the map, and there's nothing wrong with the occasional secret that's a real head-scratcher. One could argue they add replayability, even.

Hitscan attacks appearing to pass through enemies is a quirk/bug of the way the original engine handles blockmap/hitbox detection (most frustrating when you fire an SSG at a huge target like a mancubus and somehow only graze him)--it happens when the attack doesn't pass through the block unit that contains the center of the intended target, which can happen even in circumstances where visually a hit seems intuitive/guaranteed. Something similar explains why it can be hard to damage monsters with large hitboxes with fist/chainsaw attacks, but I can't remember all of the specifics.

ZDooM and its derivatives fix the issue, other ports either leave it alone or possibly handle it via an option.

[Solarn]

MAP07, "Cacomap" by Inkie. Played in prBoom+.

This was a fun little gimmick map. Not too serious, but it was never intended to be. The courtyard fight was the only one that gave me any trouble, but even then it wasn't too much. What else can I say? The minimap caco was really good, shame that you can't see textures on the minimap or it would have been even better.

[Steve D]

Demon of the Well said:

I was able to get the secret RL in a couple of shots

Well, of course! ;D The wizard strikes again!

IIRC, you don't check maps in DB2, so that means you actually saw the switch? I know exactly where it is, but I've never seen it from the ground, only if I idclip, and I play at 1280x1024. Maybe if I had a 30-inch monitor . . . ;D

You make some good points. If I was Memfis, I'd stick to my guns, because it is a pretty damned clever trick that shows deep knowledge of the game mechanics.

Thanks for your explanation of the hitbox fuckery. That is quite peculiar, as are the many weirdnesses of auto-aim. Just the other day I played a map on GZDoom where a Revvis was but 15 paces in front of me. I had it all lined-up to eat a rocket, but when I fired, the rocket sailed over its head and continued on to a Chaingunner on a raised platform 50 meters behind the Revvie. That was worthy of a face-palm, and is by no means the only time something like this has happened. Funny game, this Doom. ;)

[Demon of the Well]

Oh no no, I missed the secret when I played the map for my review--that the mechanism was a shootable switch had occurred to me, but I was unable to spot it, and so gave up my search. Magnusblitz posted some images later that clued me in to its location, and so I went back to the map in -nomonsters mode just to see if it really was 'impossible' without mouselook.

Map 07 -- Cacomap - 100% Kills / 100% Secrets
I'm struggling to find much to say about this one. Even moreso than map 05, the map's whole schtick is that it's "cute" (look at the automap if the name alone doesn't clue you in), in a very 90s idiom this time--the textures clash pretty badly in some places, but they're chosen for their color, and not for their compatibility with their neighbors. Constrained by the need to complete the image on the automap, there's no real room for interesting architecture, and most of the action is on a very flat plane, save for the drop into the cacoyard down south. Action is quite basic--open a door, shoot some fodder, open a door, shoot some fodder, etc. etc. etc. Inkie did make a wise decision in allowing most of the monsters to wake up and wander through the rooms as soon as the player makes a noise, saving the proceedings from feeling entirely static.

I guess it'll be fun for those charmed by the concept, but for the rest of us there's not much to hold interest here. In fairness, making a fun map framed in this way (that is, for drawing some discrete object on the automap) is a tough thing to do, even for very experienced mappers--I've seen it attempted several times over the years, and only a scarce few are fun enough to warrant playing them more than once.

[Seele00TextOnly]

Map07 - "Cacomap" by Inkie

A moderately fun little gimmick map. That Rocketlauncher hardly seemed worthy of Secret flagging. Unmarked Exit is a tsk tsk.

Can't say much about this map. It sure is shaped like a Caco.

[dobu gabu maru]

MAP07: Silly layout with some serious fights. That’s the extent of my opinions.

[Phil1984]

Map07 - "Cacomap" by Inkie

UV pistol start on pr-boom+ 2.5.1.4.test

Deaths - 0
Kills - 100%
Secrets - 100%

I have never really been a fan of gimmick maps. I don't want to play some silly gimmick over a quality effort. With that said this level is....inoffensive. I didn't hate it, I didn't love it, it was just there. A decent fight on the outer-edge of the map but other than that the level was a complete breeze to get through. The architecture was completely limited by what the automap needed to show, but like Map04, at least we got away from the box-style design.

It gets the job done, and not much more.

[Memfis]

In my map I think I'll change the RL secret and the health balance at least, as I myself complained about them (died like 5 times before I managed to reach the SSG area and hated myself a bit for that хd).

07 - Visually it is really weak: the bizarre union of tech and medieval textures is pretty ugly. The combat is pretty decent and nicely pressuring at times though. With greatly improved design this could become a neat action packed map.

[Magnusblitz]

If you want to change the RL secret, I would just make the switch more visible, and fill the secret up with shells to replace those wasted on trying to hit the switch. :)

[joe-ilya]

MAP07

Gosh a symmetrical map! I hate those it sure is lazy to just copy the whole map(half caco) and paste it again, also a very flat map with rooms of just different colors while the rooms have the same shapes exept for the 'horns'.
No heights, no sence, repetitive gameplay(kill this side and then the other) and symmeticity make up for a bad map. I only liked the pit ambush, it was pretty cool and finally got you something different.
2/5

[cannonball]

Map07 - “Cacomap” by Inkie
Visually it's pretty bad, whilst the gameplay has some issues it is not big enough a map to make it particularly offensive. The outdoor section was definitely the highlight here. An ok but forgettable map.

[Steve D]

Map07 - Cacomap by Inkie - Kills - 100, Items - 100, Secret - 100. Death Count - 1

I quite enjoyed this map. Yes, it's "cute," but in a jaunty, whimsical way. Thanks to its design goal, which Inkie fer sure wanted you to grasp, thus the Computer Map instantly at hand, at least it's not rectilinear! I liked the red brick and the blue "mouth." Also, the opposition seemed fortified from my first playtest, when I asked Inkie to beef it up a bit. It seems he did. Either that or I just played like shit.

The action seemed fun to me, because from beginning to end I was running and gunning, the kind of basic Doom experience that has never waned for me in all these years. The high percentage of hitscanners, along with my impetuous -- nay, foolish! -- playstyle, kept the pain coming as I was always a bit short on health.

My death came in the rocket launcher pit. I remembered it and figured I'd be clever and start some infighting, in the process of which I caught a Revvie rocket right in the teeth. That's a Doom skill I need to put more work into -- starting infights, that is, not catching rockets in the teeth, as I'm already a 10th Level Expert at that. ;D

The Revvie fuckfest at the exit saw me dancing like crazy and reduced to 20% health by the time I entered the exit chamber, so overall, I had a great time and really enjoyed this map!

[mouldy]

Map07 - “Cacomap” by Inkie

A humorous doom interlude. I did laugh though when I checked the computer map at the start. Gameplay is ok, the battle of revs and cacos was the highlight. Ugly as hell, but over quickly.

[Demonologist]

Map07 - “Cacomap” by Inkie
Very mediocre, with ugly texture clashes and forgettable gameplay. I see that some players may consider a map designed after monster to be cute or something, but I'm not one of them. Meh.

[Phobus]

MAP07:
I like it. The widened doors that I suggested free up play considerably when compared to the first draft and the map is quick and easy enough to get through that the gimmick doesn't outstay it's welcome. The fight in the brown pit is a lot more entertaining than it used to be, too.

[Memfis]

08 - Loved it! I kind of "disagreed" with a lot of texture choices at first (doors as normal walls...) but somehow it all worked together and looked nice and fresh. So big props for managing to use the texture pack so well. All areas in the map are pleasantly large, no feeling of crampedness at all, which is amazing for a 2048x2048 level. They are very exciting to fight in, just perfect for this "easy hardcore" gameplay. And perhaps my favorite thing was the beautiful romantic midi: excellent choice! In my opinion best map so far, by far. Only the final shooting gallery was a bit too easy perhaps but still entertaining.

[Magnusblitz]

MAP07: Cacomap by Inkie
100% kills, 1/1 secret

Meh, I can't hate this map. Sure, it's entire gimmicky (and the gimmick doesn't even work on a full scale - the automap doesn't show the color of the sectors) but even with that, the progression and fights aren't that bad. Thankfully, Inkie made the smart decision to not just fill it with only cacodemons. I did actually die once, somewhat embarassingly, as those hitscanners can do more damage than you think.

[Solarn]

MAP08, "Sheltered Outpost" by an_mutt. Played in prBoom+.

I liked this map. I am generally lukewarm on techbases, because there's just so many of them and there was a time when several prominent personalities here on Doomworld expressed an opinion that techbases were objectively superior to any other kind of level, which really soured me on the whole thing.

Anyway, this was a pretty good map. Very challenging, especially the final stretch after the yellow key, but fun. I never felt particularly cramped or overwhelmed even as I died again and again to that ambush Vile. I enjoyed the design too, good mix of base and "castle" textures and it definitely redeemed the white techbase walls that looked so garish in MAP02.

Overall, still no Mayhem Town, but very close.

[Demon of the Well]

Map 08 -- Sheltered Outpost - 104% Kills / 100% Secrets
Not half bad. Aesthetically I have some reservations: some of the texture combos look jarring to me, particularly where the squeaky-clean bathroom-tech textures abut with the medieval stone and Hexen murals (so, mainly in the outer areas of the outpost), and the midi chosen doesn't do it for me. However, like map 06 before it, 'Sheltered Outpost' makes effective use of unreachable scenery which extends beyond the bounds of the playable area to add a sense of depth/location to the proceedings. What little light variation is present also makes a constructive contribution in this regard, with the lower areas of the base tending to be more shady/shadowy. Its best attribute, however, is simply that it makes effective use of the 2048x2048 space allotment. Rooms and areas feel spacious and airy--an_mutt has opted for having a small number of areas that take big chunks out of his space budget rather than using a tiny/cramped scale to create as many rooms as possible within that budget--and yet the overall level progression feels suitably fleshed out.

This is accomplished through an efficient layout that extends nearly as far along the vertical axis as it does along the horizontal axis; major areas in the base proper have a stacked multilevel layout that sees the player revisiting areas at different heights over the duration, a path actuated by a fairly high degree of interconnectivity (achieved largely through lifts/drops, again emphasizing the vertical axis). This aspect of the layout also informs the majority of the gameplay: monster count is not particularly high, but as you move around there's almost always something firing at you from a higher level (again, often from outside of the playable area), which keeps combating the relatively straightforward monster-mash (very infight-prone) from coming off as too one-note. I'm not sure about the decision to arrange the final fight beyond the playable bounds of the map (read: the crowd of shit beyond the exterior fences near the exit, and the arch-vile that appears atop the outer wall, although he got Boom'd off it when I played)--the player/monster separation sort of defeats the purpose of a climactic encounter, I think--but it doesn't spoil what is otherwise a perfectly reasonable adventure.

[Seele00TextOnly]

Map08 - "Sheltered Outpost" by an_mutt

Got some use of the pistol early on including fisting a Demon before getting the Chaingun, a Shotgun, and darting over to get a Supershotgun. Kind of a giveaway there, but I do hear an Arachnotron so there may be some need for this soon. After taking care of that and a PE it's kind of quiet again and I find a secret Map.

It's about now that I wonder if I've missed something, as I can't seem to proceed in any direction available; then I notice the switch that lowers the Blue Key and feel like an idiot. Next it's a couple Revs and a.. second SSG? I guess the first one would make more sense to mark Secret, guess I'm just confused all around with regards to that one. I go on and find a hidden switch, causing two Revs to crawl out of a tunnel behind me revealing the Plasmarifle.

Kill a second Arachnotron and... another Green Armor? Already? This map thinks I suck. Get the Yellow Key and-- oh, I see why now. A party has come out to wish me well. After getting my ass handed to me a few times, I finally pay my respects to the welcoming committee and get back to business. There is way more health around here than there needs to be, especially considering the presence of a Berserk pack in one of the closets. Head out into the water and... even more Medikits? This place must've been a hospital or something.

After dispatching an Archvile and Revs I find even more Medikits and another Plasmarifle, and work my way back around to the Yellow Door. It's now I realize I picked up a Backpack somewhere and-- a second Backpack? And a Soulsphere. And an Invisibility. Go down a lift and the titular Mayhem ensues. I like the crushers. I finish the map, then wander around to find the third secret, a Megaarmor. Continuous players must leave this map packed to the gills.

tl;dr: Prune back some of the health and powerups on UV. This is supposed to be tough and most of the encounters here manage that, but the map is too nerfed with all these goodies. Place looks pretty good, once again keeping monsters outside of where the player can go pays off. Great map.