Doom 2 In Name Only: An indepth review thread

[Jaws In Space]

So it seems that the guys over at the Doom 2 In Name only thread are really really confused as to why so many people don't like the wad. Since The Doomworld Megawad club mostlikely won't be getting to this wad anytime soon & as someone who didn't think too hightly of this wad I've decided to do a really indepth review of why I think that this wad was bad. I won't be able to do reviews daily as I am moving from Oklahoma to Michigan over the next 2 weeks so if anyone else would like to review this wad as well feel free to post your thought here as well.


Doom 2 In Name Only HMP, Continuous, With Saves, Keyboard Only, PRBoom
Map 1 - 4/5
Is this an entryway - Yes & No. The entryway itself is a pretty impressive structure & you go through it about 1/3rd of the way into the map, but you can see it right from the start of the map. Personally I fell that the majority of the gameplay should have taken before the "entryway", but I still feel that an area beyond the entryway would have been fine so long as you could have seen the entryway for the entirety of the map, which you can't here so it looses some project goal points from me. So while it is an interesting looking thing I feel that we don't see enough of it & everything beyond it just becomes regular techbase with no indication of an "Entryway" whatsoever.

What did I think of the map - This map comes in 2 parts an organic rocky crate filled exterior before the entryway & a simple techbase interior beyond the entryway. The better section of this map is the exterior portion as it has the most interesting looking architecture & layout along with the better gameplay. While the interior portion is a simple techbase that in a way reminds me of something you would see in Evilution, it is mostly comprised of a hallway that wraps around a central area with a few offshoots. The interior has pretty simple gameplay of mow down whatever is in front of you, but it's still pretty fun because unlike most wads the first weapon given to the player here is the chaingun & since it's the opening level it's mostly low tier enemies. The most interesting part of the interior section is the green armor room where, once you grab it, the top of the stairs suddenly become the bottom & you are in the middle of an ambush. The exit trap is pretty easy to deal with & I found it pretty uninteresting.

So overall while it is a pretty solid opening it does show one what is to come to expect from the rest of this wad, which is maps that only generally follow the concept of the project & rather old school design choices that would have seemed good back in the day, but with the amount of such high quality releases since then it seems rather plain, for a lack of a better word.

Map 2 - 5/5
Is this an Underhalls - Yes. This map is a series of hallways that appear to be underground, so yes this seems to be a good interpretation of underhalls.

What did I think of the map - This map is really great. I've never played a _Bruce_ map before, but I've heard that they all have a similar organic layout style such as this one, if so I'm definitely interested in checking out more _Bruce_ maps in the future. Even though the map refuses to use strait lines for the overall structure it's still a pretty linear affair, but it somewhat negates this fact through the use of windows to see into future area & a wrapping architecture that has you revisit previous areas & in this way reminds of the design style of John Romero. The use of varied height & lighting here is pretty good & adds style to an already good looking map. The monster placement isn't anything to write home about due to being such an early map, but it does the job just fine.

So overall this map succeeds everywhere the previous map failed, it better represents the name of the map & it feels less amateurish in its design, so this is a clear winner from my perspective.

Map 3 - 4/5
Is this a Gauntlet - Eh...not really. I know of 3 definitions of a gauntlet. 1 - a type of glove used by knights. 2 - a type of railroad track. 3 - Running the gauntlet (a type of torture/punishment), which is what I feel that the original Id authors intended. Now there are 2 areas in this map that vaguely represent running the gauntlet, the first is the + shaped structure that takes up about 50% of the map, & the crusher section of the map. But overall this really just feels like just another _Bruce_ map & I don't think I'd bat an eye if it had been in the previous map slot.

What did I think of the map - Well as I said with map 2, I think this map is great. This really is just _Bruce_ doing his thing again. Though I will say that this map does seem to take a fair bit of inspiration from the IWAD map, there are a few McGee design choices here that didn't appear in map 2 of this wad.

So overall this map fails pretty hard on representing the name, but the design is great & it's a fun map to play, only slightly less so that map 2.

Map 4 - 2/5
Is this a Focus - Yes & No, but I wish it could have all been yes. The interpretation of "Focus" here is that of the epicenter of an earthquake, but sadly only about 1/3rd of the map is compromised of the "Focus" section of the map. The first 2/3rds of this map
really don't have a reason to exist.

What did I think of the map - lets break this map down into 1/3rds. The first 1/3rd of this map takes place in a brown rocky canyon with a green slime river splitting it in half, you make your way down the canyon in one direction, cross a bridge & then work your way back up the canyon on the opposite side until you reach a tech structure. The gameplay here is fine, a little tight on health, but it's not a problem if you know what your doing. The real problem with this section is just how incredibly bland it looks, it's just way too brown & the bright light level of the map doesn't help anything here. A quick simple fix to this area would have been to decrease the light level a bit & to have the upper cave walls a different color than the walls around the green slime, even just a darker shade of brown such as ashwall could have done the trick. The second 1/3rd of the map is an interior techbase & suffers the same issues as the exterior, bland texture usage & poor lighting variation. It's seriously bad here, pretty much the entire interior section is nothing but tekgreen & it's variants, also the poor texture alignment on the steps in the yellow key room look pretty bad. Again a pretty simple fix would have been to just use other textures, I'm mean anything really, it's so monotonous in here it could have fit in well with the monochrome mapping project. And again the lighting is really bad, Antroid seems to be doing a sort of realistic lighting in that the only sections of this area that are darker don't have a wall with tekgreen5. While this way of lighting can work in situations, it fails here because almost every wall has the tekgreen5 on it, so the whole section is uniformly bright. The final 1/3rd of this map is where the map really shines & is also where the namesake of the map makes it's appearance. The reason this area stands out so much from the previous 2 is that it has a much greater variation of texture use & lighting, & not just because it's a techbase being encroached upon by a fiery earthquake. Even if there were no lava elements to this section of the map it would still stand out as a better techbase than the tekgreen disaster that preceded it, because it's got multiple textures used in it's structure there's Stone, Pipes, & Teklite. Though with the addition of the redstone & lava it gets really interesting because with the lave comes lighting contrast compared with the darker surroundings of the destroyed base. I don't know if Antroid just left the first 2 areas really bland to make the 3rd area really stand out, but if he purposely did so I think it was a pretty bad decision that didn't help the map in any way.

So overall like map 1 this is another map that has too much, I think that the first 2/3rds of this map could have just been cut out & a pretty solid map would be all that remains. I've never heard of Antroid before this & I only see one other release from Id games so I'm assuming that he is relativly new to making maps. The final 1/3 of this map shows that he has good ideas, but I think he needs more experience to make really great maps.

Map 5 - 1/5
Is this The Waste Tunnels - Sort of. There is deffinatley a nuclear waste tunnel in this map, but it appears near the end of the map, that is unless you count the nuclear hallways throughout the map as "tunnels" which in that case yes it's diffinately more of a waste tunnels, yet still there's a lot in here that clearly isn't waste tunnels. Though I do see the point of just saying "no I can't have a map compromised entirly of tunnels", but still it's the whole point of the the project so...eh I'm conflicted.

What did I think of the map - It's really crampt & has too much floor detail. This map pretty much starts off bad right away with those annoying slime fall pillars that get in your way as you go down the first "slime hallway", that along with the little floor borders on each side of the hallway made this area really hard to maneuver & made me take a lot of unnecessary damage. This proved to be detrimental when I hit the switch just behind the green armor, which reveals two revenants to fight in a very confined space. It took me a couple deaths to defeat them, but once I did I found myself in an even more bumpy slime hallway facing a Kell Knight & some imps, the explosive barrels sped up the killing somewhat, but my Radsuit was dying before I got to the yellow key so I rushed onto it & was immediatly killed by ambush chaingunners, screw you. So I tried again & knowing what to expect this time I was able to deal with them properly. Once I got the key I slowly worked my way back to the yellow door trying to avoid damage along the way. Beyond the yellow door is a decent enough techbase area, followed by a waste processing room, which again wasn't too bad...the first time through it. Once I grabbed the red key though my radsuit was once again wering off & the waste processing room was just repopulated by mostly cacos & barons. Because I had no radsuit I was forced to door camp for almost the entire fight & stick to the edges of the room to avoid the nukage. After defeating the small caco swarm I navigated my way back up the annoying slime hallway to the red key door, & behind it I see a hole to drop down into & an exit sign, yay so this is the end of the map right! No, it's not it seems an_mutt realized that he forgot to actually put some tunnels in this map so he shoehorned some in at the end. We drop down into a 64 wide corridor & have to fight a Hell Knight in a very tight space, which guarentees taking damage, after a little bit the hallways open up & we finally see the one Waste Tunnel of the map & see a switch at the end of it & I expect it to be the end of the map, but nooo, it another trap & once again I'm forced to fight some cacodemons while stuck in a tight hallway. Luckily the actuall exit is now revealed & I can finally leave this map.

So overall I really don't like this map, not only does it fail to represent The Waste Tunnels properly it's just not that fun to play. It's way to tight & also to bumpy in the slime hallways, I also found the slime to be pretty annoying because it often really limited my movement, I don't know maybe if I had played faster the radsuits could have helped me more. There really isn't any redeeming quality's to this map & I feel that it is the worst of the 5 so far.

Map 6 - 1/5
Is this The Crusher - Not really. There are a lot of crushers in this map so it's not The Crusher, but more of The Crushers, though there is a more primary crusher that is activated once you pick up the yellow key, but still I think it's cheating to say this map represents the crusher.

What did I think of the map - Uh so after Processing controls pretty decent opener I expected a pretty decent map here, but instead we get this pretty bullshitty map that would have been better suited for Map 8: Tricks & Go Fuck Yourself. It starts off innocently enough with a large area completely void of anything. Though I don't think that this area works, it's clearly trying to set up some suspense by not having any monsters, but since there is literally nothing here there is really no reason to explore this area, there should have been some items hidden away to make it more exploratory. So after an uneventful run through this nothingness we reach the bottom of the long decent & then, bam! monsters everywhere, yay! Sadly with the monsters comes the most screwed up map progression I've seen in quite some time. I was constantly getting lost in all of these tight mazes, It didn't help that the entire map was almost entirely brown, hmmmm annoying brown maps this is 2 so far....is this going to be a reoccurring theme in this wad? stay tuned & find out later. Eventually I found a red key & then I got really lost & spent at least 15 minutes scouring everywhere trying to figure out where I was supposed to go, I could see the red key switch, but I had no Idea how to get over there. That stupid pillar just blocking my way to the switch was mocking me, I know it. Eventually I did find a path that I hadn't taken before & I found the blue key. I knew where to use it so I quickly hurried over to the blue switch & pushed it, only to see the pillar on the opposite side of the hallway open up, screw you. S o once again I had to spent a ton of time just wandering around trying to figure out where to go. Then Finally I figured it out & made it to the main Crusher area, which is pretty much a rip off of Hunted from Plutonia. Finding the yellow key was really easy & I skipped at least 1/4 of the entire maze to find it, but once you do grab the key, the crusher starts to descend from the ceiling. You are pretty much guaranteed to be crushed once, I was barley crushed twice & once you escape from the crusher you have to face a horde of revenants in a narrow hallway with the crusher to your back, which I didn't find to be very fun. After that all you have to do is navigate your way back to the yellow door & exit the map.

So overall I really hated this map, even more so that the previous map, so this is a new low point for the wad. This map suffers from tight corridors & a confusing layout that is easy to get lost in & a bland monotonous texturing scheme.

Map 7 - 2/5
Is this Dead Simple - No, not even in the slightest. Unless that is your definition of Dead Simple involves Arachnotrons & Mancubi. The only remotely simple thing about this map is that it uses almost nothing but triangles to create the entire map.

What did I think of the map - First off I'll get this gripe out of the way, there is no reason whatsoever that this map needed to use the 666 & 667 tags, & even worse the map goes out of it's way to unsimplify the tags by having a convoluted system of killing & resurrecting Mancs & Arachs off screen somewhere to make the tags work multiple times throughout the map. I feel like a broken record when I say this, but once again this is a map that has too much, even though I'm complaining about it using the 666/667 tags this was the only
fun part of the map. If this had ended with the death of the Spider Mastermind I would have given this map a 4/5, but no it just dragged on & on with no end in sight. It got really tedious after awhile & I just wanted it to end, the plain architecture of triangles didn't help because it just added to the monotony of this uninteresting map.

So overall this map completely fails at representing Dead Simple & it could have been, no it was a good map until everything after the Spider Mastermind showed up & just made this map turn to a slog.

Map 8 - 2/5
Is this Tricks & Traps - To an extent yes, this map has Tricks & Traps. There are a few instances where the author of this map went out of the way for tricks & traps to happen at the same time. Now on the other hand, traps do seem to vastly outweigh the number of tricks, in fact there are hardly any tricks in this map. The bigger issue though is the lack of both Tricks & Traps, there are a few in here, but it seems that there is a bit of a gap in between each & the majority them are pretty standard, this map really could have gone into any megawad & the first thing to cross my mind about the map wouldn't be that it represents Tricks & Traps. I would have liked to have seen a map almost entirely composed of tricks & traps, even mapping tricks such as fake 3d floors & whatnot would have been a good idea to put in here.

What did I think of the map - This map started off decent enough, with some standard gameplay in an open room full of steps. Once I cleared out that area we come to the first trick of the map, how to get past the double set of bars. It took me a bit to figure this one out, but I did eventually get it without too much trouble, I thought that this one was pretty well executed. After getting past the bars I'm teleported back to the main area & then grab the blue key. Now even though there are 2 blue doors you are forced to go through the one that's not near the red door to progress through the map. Upon fighting your way through the area behind the first blue door a door behind the second blue door opens & now you can make more progress to finish the map. Personally I felt that one of the 2 blue doors should have been an optional area, because once I got done with the first one I was starting to get board with the map. Luckily if you go the right direction you can get the red key fairly quickly & skip most of that area behind the second blue door. The area behind the red door is pretty short just a few enemies & a teleporter that takes you to the yellow key room...damn, I forgot that there was a yellow key door to get through the exit. Here's where my interest in the map faded away, I was still having a bit of fun up until this point & I just didn't want to get that yellow key, but I pushed on pretty much rushing my way through the rest of the map to the exit.

So overall I didn't really enjoy this map for the same reasons I didn't like map 7, just to a lesser extent, it just went on too long & didn't keep my interest. Many of the areas that could have been optional were mandatory. Then there was the lack of Tricks & Traps in a map called Tricks & Traps.

Map 9 - 3/5
Is this The Pit - Absolutly, this is without a doubt a pit. Oh my god this is a pit to end all pits. This is exactly what I wanted to see from a map called the pit, during my short time involved in the development of D2INO I was going to attempt to make a map like this one after I failed at delivering Monster Condo, but I missed out in claiming the slot. I'm so glad that someone made a giant pit map like I would have done.

What did I think of the map - This is my favorite map in the wad since map 3, I still wouldn't say that it's good, but it is above average. My biggest problem with the map is all of the small areas outside of the actual pit, the majority of the fighting in the map takes place in these areas instead of the pit itself. In fact the entire pit area is rather lacking of anything really, with only 4 structures to even enter. On top of that there is only one key for progression in the pit area, while the other 2 are off in the side areas. Even though I love how big the pit is, I find that it tedious to run around in due to it's size, this could have been avoided by having all of the teleporters accessible at the start of the map. It got pretty annoying that once I cleared out a side area the bars would open, but it was pretty useless as the only way to get the bars of the other teleporters open way by walking to each side area to clear them out. Another complaint I have about this map is that it includes Pain Elementals, if ever there were to be a map where Pain Elementas should never ever be used, it would be this map. Now it is pretty easy to just avoid them & their unlimited lost souls in a map this big, but still there was every so often that one time when a lost soul would charge from who the hell knows where & then suddenly I'm dead. Then there is the exit, yeah it could have been just as simple as flipping the direction of the stairs around to make them more visible, but as it was with the direction that seems most logical for progression I often ran past the stairs without even noticing them, not fun at all for a map this big.

So overall I did enjoy this map pretty well besides the things that I complained about above. Also this map most certainly has done the best job of emulating the map name so far in the wad.

Map 10 - 3/5
Is this a Refueling Base - Yeah I see this as a refueling base.

What did I think of the map - This was just another okay map, it had some good things & it had some bad things & it really wasn't all that memorable. Lets start off with the bad, near the start of the map is a room that is pretty much ripped right out of the original Doom 2 map. This room along with the shape of the structures in the main open area seem a bit too heavily inspired by the Doom 2 map to be coincidental. It seems pretty bad to have these rip off rooms in the map when it was clearly stated in the project rules to avoid making direct homages to the original maps. Honestly there doesn't seem to be any reason for that entire area before the teleporter to even exist, except to have that homage room. My second complaint is that this map seems, like a few before, like someones very early attempts at making maps. There is just stuff everywhere that makes you know that it's someones earliest map, the liquids dripping everywhere, bad texture mixing, & not putting a good border between different textures. Some areas are under detailed & ugly to look at, while others are over detailed & ugly to look at. One good & bad thing about the map was how easy it was, normally I would complain about the easiness, the only battle that was any bit difficult was the one where I picked up the red key. But after playing through maps 6, 7, 8, & 9 it really refreshing to play a map this is pretty short & easy.

So overall this map was nice for being short & easy, but it's otherwise pretty forgettable.

Map 11 - 4/5
Is this Circle Of Death - Not really. For the same reasons as the crusher, there are a few circles of death here. Yet once again there is the primary Circle of death right there in the middle of the map.

What did I think of the map - Had I reviewed this map when I first played this wad I probably would have given it a 1, I just absolutely hated it. Though now that I've played it a second time & really got into it I'm actually kind of liking this map. I'm pretty conflicted as to whether it is worthy of a 4 rating or only a 3, it was a tough decision, but every time I was about to say yeah this map is only a 3, the annoying stuff stopped & I started to enjoy myself again. So in reality this would really be a solid 3.5, but I don't do that kind of shit so I give it a 4 out of 5, so yeah, it's our first good map since map 3. Now onto the review, I hate the start of this map I run down the steps only to find the door locked & I'm forced to run through lava. Unlike my first play though I actually found a radsuit right there at the start & actually had a fairly decent time in the lava, still personally I just can't stand damaging floors & I find it to be one of the most annoying things in Doom, so even though I did better this time around I still don't like that start. Luckily this area is relatively short & in no time we teleport back to the start of the map & the door to the main structure is now open. From here on out there is a lot of running around looking for switches & then trying to figure out what those switches did, all while trying to avoid that pesky cyberdemon in the middle of the map. This map has a pretty interconnected layout, a lot of it is blocked off at the start of the map, but once you start hitting some switches you see that some of those closed doors are now open & when you go through them you're like oh it's this area. This map had a really good scene of place, I never really got lost & didn't really have to use the automap very much until the very end. Another think I liked about this map is that it just looks good, several of the past few maps have been obvious works of inexperienced mappers so it was really nice to see some competent architecture & lighting. Finally the gameplay, this map has had some of the very best fights & monster placement of the wad so far, I had to step up my game a bit here after I died a few times, health and ammo balance is also really good & even though most of the map is switch hunting, whenever monsters did show up I found myself just having a good time trying to figure out how best to win each fight. Though he was annoying as hell, I really do appreciate the dynamic that the cyberdemon added to the map & in the end I even let him live as I left the map.

So overall I'm glad I came back to this map after that terrible first run, I don't normally enjoy exploratory switch hunt maps like this one, but like I said every time it was about to get overly annoying I figured out what to do. The real reason to play this map though is for the well placed monster fights & good health & ammo balance.

Map 12 - 4/5
Is this The Factory - Well it's got some moving parts & is more of a factory than the original Doom 2 map.

What did I think of the map - So when I first saw this map I instantly recognized it as a Cannonball map. This is the 6th Cannonball map I've played, prior to this I've only played his 2 Nova maps, 2 Mayhem2048 maps, & an UDINO map. He seems to stick with a very strict set of textures & while overall layouts change up, individual rooms can easily be confused for rooms from other maps. That being said, the map itself is competent enough, with decent visuals & good gameplay I found myself enjoying my short playthrough this map. Other than that I don't really have anything to complain about.

So overall it was fun to play, but was a bit on the abstract side to be included in Doom 2 In Name Only.

Map 13 - 2/5
Is this Downtown - Well everything before the subway section is.

What did I think of the map - Well clearly we have another map by an inexperienced mapper & it reminds me quite a bit of Map 10 in that regard, also it reminds me of several other maps from this wad that have come previously & some that come after it, seems the author took inspiration from several other maps during development. Visuals are fairly decent for the most part, but you still have that ugly texture mixing & dumb micro detailing often done by new mappers. Also the use of Wolfenstien textures is the dead giveaway of inexperience. Gameplay is a bit of a pain in the ass here, there are quite a few bullshitty instant traps that get old after awhile, especially near the start & in the lower cave section. I wish that the map had ended by hopping onto the subway train because by that point I was pretty tired of the map, besides the next map is inmost dens, the subway tunnel would have been a great place to end this map and start the next one.

So overall I don't like this map due to the authors clear inexperience of good map making.

Map 14 - 5/5
Is this The Inmost Dens - Yes, _bruce_ is once again doing his normal mapping thing & that happens to be doing weird underground areas, so it seems to be a good interpretation of the inmost dens.

What did I think of the map - Just like maps 2 & 3, I think this is another well done map by _bruce_, I'd say it's my second favorite of his maps. So here, once again _bruce_ is just doing his standard mapping & it makes for a really good looking & fun to play map. Since this is a much later map in the wad we finally get to see _bruce_ use some tougher monsters so this is probably his most difficult & fun map to play.

So overall this map gets the name right, the design is great & it's a fun map to play.

Map 15 - 2/5
Is this map an Industrial Zone - No, this map is even more abstract than Cannonballs last map & I think it seems less like an industrial zone than the Doom 2 map did.

What did I think of the map - Yep once again we have a fairly standard Cannonball map, except this time around we're in an open city sandbox map. This time around though I didn't enjoy myself as much as I did in map 12. The first half of the map before the Blue/Yellow bridge is where the most enjoyable stuff is, but everything after that should have been left out. Even though the first half was the better half it's not without it's faults, the sniping hitscanners & revenants get old really fast, plus the map is just a little bit to big to be very fun. I will say one good thing about the map is that I'm so freaking happy to finally have the BFG.

So overall this map is overly large, goes on for too long, & doesn't even represent the name of the map.

Map 16 - 3/5
Is this a Suburbs - No, not even remotely.

What did I think of the map - Ahhh yes I remember this map well, right about the time the Monochrome Mapping Project was finishing up both me & Schwerpunk decided to help out D2INO with a few of their unclaimed maps. I chose to make Monster Condo while he picked Suburbs. During development we both got a bad case of mappers block, while I just decided to give up Schwerpunk was able to at least release something. His portion of the map consisted of nothing but the entire underground prison looking area & one or two buildings above ground. It was universally criticized upon release, but was still included as part of the D2INO Alpha release, where it received even more criticism. Awhile later Joseph Lord came by & expanded greatly upon the exterior location, but left the underground area intact, then he stopped working on the project & the project was left with a very buggy map, eventually Mouldy came by to fix most of the bugs & that's what we are playing here. Personally of the the 2 authors I much prefer Schwerpunks design over Joseph Lords. Both sections of the map are very linear, both have a ton of unopenable doors for no good reason, & both are just really ugly to look at. The only reason that I like the underground section more is because I think that it has slightly better monster battles & it's shorter. A lot of the battles in the upper area are just bullshitty mass attacks, especially that last one before the exit, along with a lot of annoying chingunners. While the lower section has a few of the same issues, it's to a much lesser extent.

So overall neither section of the map is really good & it completely fails at being Suburbs.

Map 17 - 2/5
Is this Tenements - yeah, I can see this area as tenements.

What did I think of the map - Wow, so I've talked about maps looking like newbie maps before, but the first time I played this map I was immediately reminded of the city section of map 13 from Nova: The Birth, it really shocked me to learn that these maps were made by different authors. The map itself is ugly as heck, it's overly bright, has some really bad texturing choices, & has a lot of the ugly my house micro detailing. Gameplay was fairly tame up until the Red Key courtyard when suddenly all hell breaks out for the rest of the map, I stopped enjoying myself around this point & just wanted to leave the map with every new mass release of monsters.

So overall this was once again another map that was doing fine & then just added to much & turned itself bad. At least it's the first map to do a good representation of the map name in awhile.

Map 18 - 4/5
Is this Courtyard - No, once again we have the issue of multiple courtyards & this time there is no definitive courtyard, so this one really fails in adapting the map name.

What did I think of the map - Well honestly I didn't really have any issues with this map. I played it, had fun, & then it was done. Nothing really worth noting about the layout or texturing, it was just fairly standard courtyard looking stuff. Monster density was pretty low so this was a pretty easy map.

So overall it was there I played it & that's it.

Map 19 - 5/5
Is this a Citadel - Yes.

What did I think of the map - This is an exploration map done right. The map starts of with a mostly empty exploratory opening similar to map 6, except here it's done way better with interesting architecture & stuff to pickup. After teleporting away from this area we are thrown into the action as the ground beneath our feet sinks away into lava. After a few more nasty traps we make it to the main hub area of the map where we will often return to during our adventure. That's what this map really is, it's an adventure. I spent 1 hour & 20 minutes playing this map & that doesn't include the times I died without saving in some spots. Yet I would still rather spend several hours in this map than several minutes in some of the earlier map played. The map looks really fantastic, good use of textures & lighting, the only area I though could use some more brightness was the hallways right after you picked up some lite amp goggles. Even for it's size & interconnected layout there is still a pretty good sense of place to the map, I didn't get lost until near the end of the map. After killing the cyberdemon in the yellow key area I had no idea how to get to that yellow key, but after some serious backtracking I eventually got it. Then when everything seemed to be over & all that was left to do was open the exit door I once again got stumped as I had forgotten a blocked off teleporter I had visited way earlier in the map. Though other than these two instances I had no trouble at all navigating the map. Monster placement was very well done, there were a few annoying traps in there, but they were few & far between & considering the number of high tier monsters in this map I never felt to overwhelmed. In the end the only battle I ended up not liking was the very final battle before the exit, it was literally nothing but infighting & circle strafing, after going so strong for the entire level I was sad to see such a lame battle right before the exit. Health & Ammo balance was pretty good as well, even though I'm playing continuous I was often forced to conserve on ammo & probably used each weapon a fairly equal amount of time, it's really rare for a map to make me do that.

So overall Scifista does a complete 180 in quality with this map compared to his map 7 & I highly recommend that everyone give this map a try.

Map 20 - 4/5
Is this Gotcha! - Well no, they didn't get me.

What did I think of the map - Ahh yes, map 20, this is one of the few maps that I played wile D2INO was still in development & if I remember correctly I may have even given it a positive review way back then. This is the first fully created by Mouldy map we come to in the wad according to him this map was inspired by a scene from Starship Troopers where Rico's team is hopelessly surrounded by bugs in the already destroyed outpost. I really like the setup to this map, you start off by taking a few steps forward & then oh shit Barons, so you make a retreat out of the cave & then suddenly OH SHIT BARONS!!!! Lucky for the player the castle door closes them out behind you. There's a short bit of gameplay in the castle itself, but it's mostly just running around the perimeter hitting switches & collecting keys. After the short castle bit, you make your way through a river to the 2nd half of the map. I didn't enjoy this area as much, I though the one gimmick was good enough for the map, but this whole area puts you in several rather uneven fights against the enemy, at least it's over fairly quickly. After grabbing the red key we're back in the castle, but now a wall has been destroyed & the monster are pouring in, I had to quickly make it up the steps to the red key door. Here we are teleported to the war room, were we see a funny looking miniature of the battlefield. Flip a switch in here & you release the cyberdemons that we saw earlier to help you kill all those pesky barons. Then it's just running around in the open flipping 4 switches & avoiding the Revenants & Cacos before you exit the map. So while the gameplay does the job just fine this map is surprisingly bland looking, especially considering some of Mouldy's previous works & even compaired to other maps in this very wad & that's really my only big complaint.

So overall I enjoyed my short run through the map, I just wish that it could have looked a lot better. Also I don't see how this has anything to do with Gotcha!, but I guess it is one of the more difficult names to adapt so I'm not too bothered by it.

Map 21 - 3/5
Is this Nirvana - Yeah sure, that music is pretty relaxing. I think this is supposed to be some sort of temple in the mountains, it works, but it could have been done a little better.

What did I think of the map - So this is a Cannonball map? You sure could have fooled me. I see a few similarities to his other works, but for the most part this one seems fairly unique for him. This is especially so when it comes to the monsters, I kept on expecting that usual mass horde of monsters to appear, but it never did, there was hardly even a threatening monster in the entire map, the only times I took damage was due to my stupidity & complacency with the easiness. In fact the map was really too easy for my liking. Still it's not a bad map, though there is some questionable Doom furniture in some places.

So overall it was a nice quick breather of a map after the previous 2, but was overly simple for my tastes.

Map 22 - 2/5
Is this The Catacombs - Yeah, I see those coffins & skulls all over the map so this is catacombs.

What did I think of the map - Here it is the one map from the project leader in the wad, there could have been more than one, but Eris wisely... or maybe unwisely rejected his own Map 7 from the wad. Actually after a quick ID Games search, this map seems to be his very first map released & I can't think of anything else of his I've played. Well I've got it say it's a hell of a lot better than my first release, but that still doesn't mean it's a good map. Big problems with this map are that it's very linear & has multiple hubspokes. The player goes down each area & then makes their way back by the exact same route, which makes for pretty boring gameply. This map has a ton of skinny hallways everywhere which is simply bad design. I remember Eris kept on delaying the release of the beta because he was essentially redoing the entire map, the entire left hubspoke was gone & replaced by what looked like a cave system, but when it came down to it he realized that it would probably be best to just delete the entire right side hubspoke section as well. Due to college, pressure from others for the beta, & just a lack of interest he instead just gave up on remaking the map & released the original unedited version into the beta. It's too bad because even in the forums Eris was unhappy to release the map in this state.

So overall this map has those telltale signs of someones very first map & as such it is looked back upon with negativity by the map author & I agree, this is a boring map.

Map 23 - 1/5
Is this Barrels of Fun - No, it wasn't fun.

What did I think of the map - This map sucks. From the outside looking at the D2INO thread it did seem that everyone really wanted to make the wad as best as it could possibly be, this is evident in the rejection of all of Joe-Ilya's maps. To me it seemed like Joseph Lord was just as bad as Joe-Ilya & I never got why all of his maps weren't rejected as well. This map has a ton of things wrong with it, from non damaging nukage that later becomes damaging. Some really badly located switches, like the switch that is only indicated to be a switch by a hardly visible arrow on the floor or the hard to spot switch that gives access to the red key. Then there are ripoffs of Iwad maps all over the map, from that E1M8 section to an exact remake of the opening of Barrels Of Fun. When I got to that room the difficulty just exploded & I cheated my way through the rest of the map, all I saw was more shit.

So overall this is a crap map from a crap mapper, moving on.

Map 24 - 0/5
Is this The Chasm - Yes, this is a chasm.

What did I think of the map - I only give out one rating of 0 per wad & it only goes to the map that I enjoyed the least out of all 36. So there you go like E3M5 of Doom, Map 17 of Doom 2, & Map 28 of D2TWID Antroid has made a map I dislike so much that I literally can't bring myself to ever play it again. I wrote a very hateful review of this map awhile back right after my first plythrough when I was pissed off & angry, so I decided to give the map another shot to see if it really was that bad, sadly though I played for about 5 minutes before those bad memories came back & I had to stop. Lets first talk about the good, even though I hate this map there still are some good things in here. Compared to his map 4 this map is way better in terms of a good interconnected layout & lighting, at least as far as the interior sections go. It's the the exteriors where things go wrong. What it comes down to is that this map is just an elongated rehash of the first 1/3rd of map 4, so everything that I hated about that map applies here except 10 fold because this map is way longer & there is no interesting "Focus" part at the end to make the map interesting. This is seriously the worst texture combinations I've ever seen in a map, though I did praise the well connected layout, it was an absolute pain in the ass to navigate the interior structures because everything looked exactly the same. I was forced to use the automap 50% of the time while inside the interior sections because I had no idea where I was. I really don't understand it, we've already seen good texture usage in "The Focus" section of map 4 & I've already played map 29, so I know that Antroid can make a map look decent. So I have to ask what on earth were you thinking with this map? Did no one honestly tell you how bland this map looks? By the time I got to the Cyberdemon fight near the middle of the map I had had it with the map & just IDDQD my way though the rest of the map. It didn't really matter though all I saw was more of the same brown monotone texturing throughout the entire map. I can say that I was very happy that I didn't have to grab both the red & yellow keys to get to the exit. Gameplay was okay I guess, I just really wasn't enjoying myself & didn't really take any notes on that department, though I did find it weird that the entire section before the exit pit was devoid of any monsters.

So overall this map was made to replace an unbelievably bad Joseph Lord map, but in the end it doesn't really matter because all you guys did was replace the worst map in the wad with a new worst map of the wad. Sorry if you don't like my opinion, but I simply can't stand this map.

Map 25 - 1/5
Is this Bloodfalls - yes, there are bloodfalls all over this map.

What did I think of the map - Well once again we have another rather bland map from Mouldy, but this one is bland for different reasons than map 20. This map has the distinction of being a mostly brown map that I played right after I got done raging about how brown map 24 was. Though it's not nearly as bad here, but there are some really poor texture choices, such as using a brown structure texture as a door that blends in pretty well with the massive brown wall around it, like the door to the yellow key room, or the door to the blue key room. Gameplay started off pretty tame, but build gradually throughout the the level, right up until the first cyberdemon room when suddenly the map looses it's shit & tries to do everything it possibly can to keep you from leaving the map. Even before this room I wasn't enjoying myself & these cyberdemons really killed the map for me. It's funny I think that this was another map made to replace a really bad Joseph Lord map, seems this one didn't do the trick for me either.

So overall it's another overly brown map with gameplay that stinks.

Map 26 - 2/5
Is this The Abandon Mines - They are mines, but they don't seem very abandon to me.

What did I think of the map - This is the first map I played from D2INO, I wanted to see what the map right before mine was going to be like, it really hasn't changed at all since then. Even back when I first played it I knew it was bad, it's another really brown map & it's linear as hell. While an_mutt attempted to do something interesting with the name waste tunnels, Olympus just did a mine shaft & shows us why linear maps like this don't work very well. Then there's that freaking exit, all I wanted to do was open the door right behind the exit sign, kill an arch-vile, & then exit the map, but no the map author had to throw in one or two more battles because screw the player that's why. Except for that last few rooms I didn't have any issues with gameplay.

So overall it's another linear brown map with a exit sign that lies to you.

Map 27 - 1/5
Is this a Monster Condo - No, not at all.

What did I think of the map - So here it is the map slot that I originally claimed & then completely failed at making the map. I did make something for this, not sure if I still have it though, if I find it I post it here. The real reason that I gave up though is because of Mouldy's map 28, I played that map & then immediately withdrew my submission because my map was nowhere near the quality level of that map. I hoped that someone with better skill would make the map instead, & then Joseph Lord claimed the slot & made this map. So yeah I gave up my slot because I knew I was making a bad map & then it is instantly claimed by the worst mapper in this project. Anyways I put off playing this map as long as I possibly could because I just knew it was going to be bad & it is, it's really really bad. It's just another crappy map by Joseph Lord just like 23 was & all the same issues apply here.

So overall the texturing is crap, the progression is crap, the monster placement is crap, it goes on for way to long, & it looks nothing like a monster condo.

Map 28 - 3/5

Is this the Spirit World - Sure, heck if I know what the spirit world is supposed to look like.

What did I think of the map - Well this map can be divided into two halves. The good half & the slaughter map half. Here in his 3rd map in the wad we finally get to see Mouldy's really good visual stuff. This map just looks incredible with an overall red theme & all of the monsters silhouetted in black. There is a pretty funny looking sector skeleton near the end of the first half of the map that has a lost soul for a head. So the map starts out easy enough with the only enemies being imps, you walk around a fairly open hellish landscape until you reach the crypt with the sector skeleton, upon hitting a switch in this room the rest of the hell bestiary shows up to kill you, you once again run through the hellish landscape, hitting a few switches along the way until once again you return to the crypt with the skeleton. This time you go behind this room & then descend into the slaughter half of the map. This is where the level ends for me, I simply do not have the patience to even attempt to fight this crowd of monsters.

So overall this map is a bit like map 7 in that it starts off great, but then descends into an unfun slaughterfest. Still I give it one extra point over map 7 just because of how freaking cool it looks.

Map 29 - 4/5
Is this The Living End - Um... I don't know really, this map name is pretty open to interpretation & Antroid seems to have taken the name to mean lots of flesh textures so as to make it like the whole map is alive. Personally if I were to have done this map I would have had a lot of moving parts, the flesh textures here are good, but there's not much in the way to make the level feel alive like the map itself is trying to kill the player.

What did I think of the map - Well I can say that after a pretty horrible showing from E3 of this wad, we finally have ourselves the first truly good map since map 20. After the fairly poor showing from map 4 & the disastrous map 24 Antroid has finally given me a map that I like. There is quite a good variety of texture usage throughout the map & even though there is a lot of the same flesh textures used everywhere each area looks distinct enough that I never found myself getting lost. The map overall has a really great nonlinear progression & the goal here is to visit 4 different areas of the map to hit switches that lower coffins that block your path to the exit. The map starts off in a pretty cool looking flesh city that has towers that extend way above the player, combat is pretty good & has a few very vertical fights. The only problem I had in this area was getting from one tower to the other, I couldn't figure out how to get past those metal bars, eventually I looked in the editor & saw that I needed to take a lift & do some running to hit a switch that opens the bars. The next fight was a pretty tricky one, a Cyberdemon shows up, I ran out to meet him with a BFG, but the several other monsters show up including an Arch-Vile to give me a hard time, I died a few times here trying to find the best way to handle the battle. There are several other similarly set up battles throughout the map & this is by far the best work from Antroid as far as monster placement & fight setup is concerned. It seems to me that he spent a lot more time working on this map than his other 2. After seeing the exit & figuring out the goal of the map I set out to find the other 3 switches, the first section I go to is an underground city that has a more earth city visual style, this seemed to be the most unfinished section of the map. There was a lot of door camping here & the room that actually housed the switch was full bright & just look really bad compared with the rest of the map. Also the location of the switch in that central building there was a little annoying, after making it around the perimeter building I finally get to the central one, but I don't see anything up there so I just hop down, upon hopping off the building I see the switch that I was supposed to hit & so now I have to go all around to get back up there to hit it, I was annoyed to say the least. The next exit switch I hit was the one in the flesh chapel. Then I got a little bit lost looking for the final switch, but after a bit of searching on the auto map I figured out the area I missed. The final switch I found was located on what appears to be the tops of the flesh skyscrapers, this was a very cool looking area & had another great fight here. I then proceeded to the exit which was interesting, but badly implemented & I just skipped the final cyberdemon.

So overall I liked this map quite a bit, texturing good, it had good architecture & lighting, & has some really good battles & monster placement.

Map 30 - 2/5
Is this The Icon Of Sin - Maybe? This is another one of those map name open to a bit of interpretation. Here Mouldy chose to make a map based around the 7 deadly sins, so I guess that works.

What did I think of the map - I like the concept of the map, but the execution leaves much to be desired. Personally I don't like Icon of Sin maps so if I were making this map I just would have left him out entirely. Still everyone seems to keep on putting him into wads so if absolutely necessary I would have been nice to see him in a part of the map that takes place after the 7 deadly sins section. As it is I didn't get to enjoy how Mouldy interpreted the 7 deadly sins very was as I was rushing through trying to stop the monster spawner. So since I don't have much to say about the actual playthrough I'll briefly discuss the 7 areas by looking at them in the editor. During my playthrough I started off by going left & entering Pride. Pride is a silver room that contains a BFG, upon going near the BFG it raises up & the walls instantly disappear to reveal some hellish redstone, personally I thought that is was Lust when I first was it so I'm going to say that this room fails to represent Pride. The next room over is Envy, this is room mostly made up of green textures (Green with Envy, get it, lol). Along each side of the room are some pillars with Megaspheres & Invulnerabilities. I think this room does a pretty good job of portraying Envy & I was able to understand it immediately upon entering the room. Next up we have Wrath, this as a metal textured room filled with shootable switches. At first I was thinking it was supposed to be Sloth because of how long it took to get trough, but I do see this as a pretty good representation of Wrath as well. Next up is Sloth, this room is a small room filled with coffins, I don't think that this is the best room for Sloth, I could see this being a better representation for Gluttony, especially considering the size of those coffins! The next room is Greed, it's a red hellish room filled with backpacks that reminds me of Doom 2's The Spirit World. This I had no idea what it was supposed to be during my playthrough because I somehow didn't even notice any of the backpacks that were everywhere, but Greed does seem to fit. Okay next up is Gluttony, it's a wood textured room filled full of health potions. Yeah this is a pretty funny interpretation of Gluttony, I laughed. The final room is Lust, it's a room made up mostly of flesh textures. I guess that this could be Lust, but it's a bit of a stretch, during my playthrough I actually thought that this was supposed to be Gluttony.

So overall I didn't really like it, mostly because it an Icon of Sin map. Some of the room work & some don't, but overall it does look pretty goo & I still think that the concept is a good idea.

Map 31 - 5/5
Is this Wolfenstein - No I don't think so.

What did I think of the map - I thought that this map was pretty damned good. It was nice to see the map stick with the general theme of a Nazi castle without sticking with the usual cartoony looking Doom 2 Wolfenstein textures that most wads do. Xaser has been around Doomworld for quite some time & his knowledge of Dooms vanilla limits allows him to do some of the more fancy tricks, such as the simple mid texture arches & a more complex 3D bridge that appears in the circular stairway on the right side of the map. The custom textures here help give the illusion of a more complex map, there were a couple spots where I couldn't believe that he was able to do it in vanilla, until I would walk up to those areas & then realized oh, it's just the textures making it look complex. The maps layout is well done with a fairly nonlinear progression that connects back into itself in several spots. There is only one key in the map & upon obtaining it you gain access to the boss arena where you get to fight Hitler himself.

So overall this was only the 4th map by Xaser I've ever played the previous 3 all came from D2TWID, which were maps 31, 32, & 28 & I thought that they were ok, ok, & shit. So as far as I can tell Xaser seems to like making these gimmicky secret levels & for me it's just nice to be able to say that there is a Xaser map out there that I enjoyed playing.

Map 32 - 4/5
Is this Grosse - Yes, but only if you speak German.

What did I think of the map - Here is a map by one of Doomworlds oldest members who has been making maps since you first could make maps. So is having the most experienced guys make your secret maps a joke or something? This was a decent enough map with a theme of big guns & big weapons. I've seen a bit of cpellans other works & this is just a fairly standard map from him, but I still think it's pretty fun. Even though it is a lot of high tier monsters, it's not too tough & in that way it reminds me of Doom 2 map 8, which is one of my favorites. The map itself is pretty short & I enjoyed myself the whole way through.

So overall this is a pretty good map from a pretty good mapper.

[Magnusblitz]

Kinda funny, after seeing multiple people refer to MAP07 as "made entirely of triangles" I booted up D2INO to check it out... and was very confused. "Well, okay, it's not the most imaginative layout, but I don't see any triangles..." Turns out I was playing the old beta release version... the original MAP07 there got replaced later on by the 400 monster triangle map. Which is strange, since the older one was pretty simple...

I agree with you though, the first part of release MAP07 is pretty decent, though it's a bit tough and feels a bit too similar to D2TWID's MAP07. But after killing the Mastermind, transportation into triangle world really makes the map a slog that I wasn't interested in completing.

[Fellowzdoomer]

I'm warning you though, Jaws. You may spark an argument which probably what caused Eris to close the thread. I will admit, I'm on MAP03 so far...

DAMN IT! Just remembered I forgot to save! I correct myself. I'm on Map00 =D

EDIT: Why is there so much trouble with one megawad?

[plums]

I appreciate that you are doing this to try to help people Jaws, and I'm sure you have the best of intentions, but I think a lot of the disagreements come down to "things that a lot of people don't like but that some people do like". For instance I enjoyed both maps 06 and 07, and I know many people on the D2INO team did as well. I can see why people would not like them, and hopefully the people who made them can as well, but ultimately I don't think you're going to convince anyone that those are objectively bad maps.

(Interestingly, an earlier version of MAP07 had a large platforming area, which in retrospect really broke up the combat of the map. Too many people didn't like it though, so it got tossed. I doubt it would have changed anyone's opinion of the map anyhow.)

Nonetheless, I'm interested to read your reviews of the remaining levels.

[Antroid]

plums said:

I appreciate that you are doing this to try to help people Jaws, and I'm sure you have the best of intentions, but I think a lot of the disagreements come down to "things that a lot of people don't like but that some people do like". For instance I enjoyed both maps 06 and 07, and I know many people on the D2INO team did as well.

Exactly. There's just this thing that I'm starting to want to call "popular level design" which seems to be FROM people who've played absolute fuckton of doom FOR people who've played absolute fuckton of doom. And because of playing absolute fuckton of doom, their tastes for maps are slightly different than those of someone who barely plays doom (and no, not more refined, actually different). On the other side, people who barely play doom often don't have problems with a lot of things that the former people label as unequivocally "bad".

I think it may have to do with two things: 1) the type of map and gameplay that doesn't get old as opposed to the kind that you WOULD get tired of playing all the time. Irregularities, unorthodox desicions and unconventional ideas make maps so much more fresh and interesting, but would probably be very tiresome if one was to play these kinds of maps constantly. On the other hand, the kind of type that doesn't get old can be really boring because of the way it's designed. There's an unmistakable sort of predictability to it, even if there's no end to HOW awesome things can be made.

And 2) the fact that the former people don't want to play everything, but only what is the best for them and easily and quickly gives the exact type of entertainment they desire out of doom. Whereas people who barely play pick something to play based on some other factor, like the idea behind it, or something like that which makes a project interesting enough for them to bother playing doom at all, and stick to it unless it turns out to be not what they expected and wanted.

So nowadays when a lot of people here say something is bad all I can do is roll my eyes and think "sure, believe what you want".

My favorite maps (that are not mine) from D2INO are 01, 06, 07, 08, 09, 13, 14, 15, and 22, and if anyone says those are bad? Well fuck them, they are wrong. Those are awesome maps. And honestly I can't really trust that everything else those people say is bad really is bad. These reviews will be good material to mull over and pick what I agree with and what I disagree with, in the end.

Oh and sorry if this whole post is a gross misinterpretation of things, but it's pretty much how it appears to me (and has appeared to me for quite a while now).

[plums]

Antroid said:

Oh and sorry if this whole post is a gross misinterpretation of things, but it's pretty much how it appears to me (and has appeared to me for quite a while now).

I think there is value in hearing from people that didn't like D2INO (or even certain parts of it) if the criticism is respectful enough. A big question from D2INO mappers seemed to be "why do some people dislike some of these maps so much?" which can be answered honestly and without hostility, as long as those opinions are not presented as strict, inescapable truth. The D2INO thread kind of degraded into all sorts of other things, so I can appreciate why Eris closed it. Hopefully this one stays more focused and civil.

Also, I confess to being very curious of what people will think of your later maps Antroid. I have to agree that MAP04 wasn't all too special, but I really liked your contributions in 24 and 29; perhaps my favourites of the wad.

[Antroid]

plums said:

I think there is value in hearing from people that didn't like D2INO (or even certain parts of it) if the criticism is respectful enough. A big question from D2INO mappers seemed to be "why do some people dislike some of these maps so much?" which can be answered honestly and without hostility, as long as those opinions are not presented as strict, inescapable truth. The D2INO thread kind of degraded into all sorts of other things, so I can appreciate why Eris closed it. Hopefully this one stays more focused and civil.

Yeah. But in general the responses to those questions have been in the vein of "it's ugly", "it has bad flow" or "it drags on too long" and as someone who was one of those asking the big question, I look at those claims and blink dumbly and think "Um... no? it isn't/doesn't?". Because I disagree with most of those. I'm waiting to see a criticism that would make sense to me.

For example, in the previous thread Tarnsman claimed that 19 was a map that drags on in the right way, while I think it's the only map in the wad that's genuinely about three times as long as it should have been and way too tiresome. Plus it's needlessly dark and has really nonsense progression like that one time when you have to approach those III bars to make them close and open a way to opening them again. And it STILL apparently has lots of little instances of sky tiling. It has cool music and a cool secret but I didn't enjoy it as much as many other maps (like scifista's other one, map07 which is genius and seeing people scream ITS NOT SIMPLE is hilarious).

Maps 02 and 03 also seem generally praised while I found them boring and an unfortunate start to a megawad if you want to excite people and grip them (02 has a nice atmosphere but it's still boring because it's way too simple).

Then there's the really stupid nitpicking like "oh no there's TWO COURTYARDS!!!".

So I don't know how useful this will be in the end, to be honest. For me, at least.

plums said:

Also, I confess to being very curious of what people will think of your later maps Antroid. I have to agree that MAP04 wasn't all too special, but I really liked your contributions in 24 and 29; perhaps my favourites of the wad.

Me too, obviously. I know that the first 2/3 of map04 were kind of a fluke, and while I personally would not have problems with them if I was playing it as someone else's map, I see why they are uninteresting. I believe 24 and 29 are way better efforts and I'm curious to see what nonsense gripes people will have with them.

[Phobus]

This community needs more people like Tarnsman, who are happy to let a needy dick go unfellated and tell things how they really are. It also needs less delicate snowflakes closing threads when they don't like the discussion is going.

[plums]

Phobus said:

It also needs less delicate snowflakes closing threads when they don't like the discussion is going.

That's a dick thing to say, the last two pages of the D2INO were turning into a clusterfuck of posts that had less and less to do with the wad and more about people arguing with each other. I don't think Eris Falling closed it because his feeling were hurt.

[Antroid]

Phobus said:

This community needs more people like Tarnsman, who are happy to let a needy dick go unfellated and tell things how they really are.

Except there isn't really "how things really are" in this sort of thing. If one group of people likes something and another doesn't, neither can claim that how they see things is how they really are, which is something that's happening a lot.

Really, for all my respect for Tarnsman and people who I bunch up with him in this thinly defined category, their approach I can't agree with. We aren't selling the projects we make to marketologists or spoiled and lazy masses, there's no need to make maps just so, so as many people as possible would enjoy them, there's no need to cater to what many of the people want if an author doesn't want to make that. And if something isn't many people's cup of tea doesn't make it bad. What's much more important is creative expression, and if in any miniscule way some of the players' gameplay and other preferences contradict what the author wanted to make, in my opinion there's no question about what's more important.

So take that ego and your idea that you or someone else knows "how things really are" and shove it.

[Tristan]

Phobus said:

It also needs less delicate snowflakes closing threads when they don't like the discussion is going.

I hope you're not seriously suggesting that I closed it because Tarnsman was repeatedly saying he didn't like it.

[Antroid]

You better give up that hope because I believe that's exactly what he is suggesting.

[Alter]

Antroid said:

So take that ego and your idea that you or someone else knows "how things really are" and shove it.

Sorry but you are proving your own created stereotype of doom elitism, by telling someone to shove his opinion. Just give it up already and accept that D2INO can be criticized anyway people see it, even if it's not nice.

[Phml]

If you don't like a wad you can stop playing it.
If you don't like a review you can stop reading it.

Too many attempts to dodge any criticism and browbeat any critic into silence by claiming artistic expression and being a misunderstood rebel standing alone against the unwashed masses. Too many of them from the one same guy who's been doing it for years, while he feels free to take a dump on every other school of thought.

Antroid wants censorship so bad, why not give him just that? Ignore his replies. Act like he doesn't exist. Give him his echo chamber, and let the rest of us discuss game design.

[Tristan]

Okay well either way I really think this needs to be cleared up so I don't get more people parroting that garbage at me later on.

In a lot of cases, when projects are finished, the thread is locked. Look at DTWID, its sequel, PRCP. Why? Because the threads aren't needed anymore, the project is done.
D2INO was done nearly two months ago, the thread did not need to still be open.
Now in fairness to Tarnsman, he did play through the alpha last year, and his verdict was that he hated basically everything, and I reacted too strongly to that, so we didn't actually change anything. My bad. On the other hand, Tarnsman is only one person, so no-one could seriously expect me to turn around and say, okay, we need to completely overhaul this, it's shit. I thought the maps were pretty decent, others seemed to agree, stuff like pluralisation is admittedly pretty dumb (though I'll argue against 11's because there's one circle of death.), but at the end of the day, the project's done. It sucks that the majority don't like it, but it's done. Unless the feedback points me towards what stuff to keep under control in UDINO, I don't really give a shit, because that's the focus with the DINO series now.

Now really, what exactly was going on in that thread that would have justified not closing it? It turned into an off-topic shitfest that included stuff like ella guro telling us about her sexuality and stuff. What does that have to do with how well received D2INO was?

I had every reason to close that thread. D2INO's done. People don't like it, now let's just make sure UDINO doesn't go the same way. End of.

[Phobus]

Eris Falling said:

I hope you're not seriously suggesting that I closed it because Tarnsman was repeatedly saying he didn't like it.

Nope, I'm suggesting you cut off all conversation because an attention whore (with plenty of low-level connections) bought his sexuality and gender into an unrelated conversation and was correctly pulled up on it. That you didn't like the criticism of the project was irrelevant to both the closing of the thread and the discussion, so I'm not sure why you assumed that was why I was calling you names. I was actually doing it because it strikes me as an "I don't like confrontations!" kind of pussy-out that speaks to me of a weakness of character.

[Tristan]

I'll admit, I don't like confrontations, but there was absolutely no need for any of the stuff that was going on in there. Tarnsman was in the middle of a map-by-map analysis, that's about the only thing of any value that was lost. He can finish that here if he wants to.

If that all seriously kicked off because of the articles, I don't see the point in anyone complaining to us about it, it's not like we had anything to do with them.

[jmickle66666666]

it was fucking dumb to close that thread

[Memfis]

seeing the way this thread is developing... no, I think it wasn't. :p everyone in that thread needed to calm down a bit

[GoneAway]

People thinking a map is bad shouldn't be so easily cast aside as being due to a mere difference of opinions. For instance, I don't like D2TWID at all, but I recognize that it is good at what it tried to do. I also don't like archi's recent RUSH wad that came out, because I don't like slaughtermap gameplay, but after playing through a few maps I could see that it was executed well and had interesting ideas in play. I wouldn't rate either of these poorly, despite the fact that I don't find them fun personally. That is, you can dislike a map but still think it's a good map.

This type of detailed critical analysis should be begged for. The only unfortunate thing is that it's coming after the project is over instead of while it's in progress. However, there's always time to learn and evolve, so I hope not every mapper will simply dismiss criticism as a difference in vision. If you boil your map down into it's design elements, is it really the best possible map to encompass those elements?

[Tristan]

edit: nvm

[Tarnsman]

For the record it's not that I dislike it that I'm trying to hammer in, it's that "but it's so creative and exploratory and people only hate it because it doesn't conform to some mythical doom standards that Doom Snobs somehow have" is both wrong and borderline retarded as a defense of the criticism.

Let's look at the past Cacowards. BTSX, D2TWID, Ribbik's Maps, Pirate Doom, Unholy Realms, Zdoom Community Map II, Fuel Devourer, and Memfis Maps. That's a pretty goddamn diverse set right there. You have completely different design ideologies, gameplay ideologies, gameplay styles, structural styles, and overall focuses. So let's not act like only one specific type of thing gets praised in the Doom community.

I am not saying D2INO fails because it's not as visually polished as BTSX or Vela Pax, I'm not saying it fails because it's not D2TWID, I'm saying it fails because as a "creative exploratory mapset with a strong focus on creating environments that resemble something" it fails. I don't like Hellbound, I think it's gameplay is boring as fuck, but I can say Hellbound succeeds in doing what D2INO wanted to do. SiD, Espi's The Shrine, Deus Vult II, Map 11 and 20 of Alien Vendetta, Map 32 of Community Chest 2, and Eternal's maps are all great examples of maps that put atmosphere, adventure, a sense of place, and primarily in Eternal's case creativity above traditional gameplay. You could even call the gameplay poor in most of those, I certainly would. I still enjoy the shit out of all of those because they're good maps. They do what D2INO was trying to do.

As for the whole "Two courtyards isn't a valid criticism" yes it fucking is. The goal of the project is to be the map name. That objectively fails the goal. But more importantly it feeds back into D2INOs biggest problem. Having more map than it needs to have. Maybe if the core of all these maps was solid and interesting and they just had a few areas that felt unneeded that'd be fine. But when the entire mapset for the most part feels like you tried to tried to spread way too little butter over way too much toast and there isn't a solid core that looks like it was well enough designed that the mapper should expand out instead of making the core better, then yeah it's a valid criticism. If you can't give me ONE good courtyard, why bother trying to make a second one?

So please by all means go ahead and continue to like D2INO, that's cool, really it's okay to like things. Just stop insisting that I or any other person dislike it for any reason beyond "it doesn't do what it wants to do very well"

Also yeah Map 19 has some problems yeah (you could probably completely remove that entire start) but it at least had that Alien Vendetta feel to it where everything felt like part of a cohesive whole.

To further illustrate just how big these failings are. I played a map in Maximum Doom, fucking MAXIMUM DOOM (which if we're using creativity as a standard for quality - is the single greatest thing ever released for Doom), earlier tonight (fortdeth.wad) that did a better job of creating a sense of place and structure than most of D2INO. Hell it even managed to look better than a lot of maps.

So if you want to sit in the hugbox be my guest but when you accept a map that is a generic techbase and isn't interesting to run around in, don't act like people are saying it's bad because it's "too creative and outside the box for them"

[Da Werecat]

Phobus said:

Nope, I'm suggesting you cut off all conversation because an attention whore (with plenty of low-level connections) bought his sexuality and gender into an unrelated conversation and was correctly pulled up on it.

Looks like that post was interpreted as "I have gender identity oddities, therefore you must feel bad for criticizing me or my project". Now, did you all come up with this interpretaion by yourself, or did you just take Tarnsman's interpretation after he overreacted and started yelling?

Phobus said:

I was actually doing it because it strikes me as an "I don't like confrontations!" kind of pussy-out that speaks to me of a weakness of character.

Whether you like confrontations or not has nothing to do with strenght of your character. Sorry to rain on your parade.

[Tarnsman]

Da Werecat said:

Tarnsman's interpretation

Yeah no bro. It had nothing to do with gender identity. It had to do with bringing up an irrelevant shit that had nothing to do with the topic at hand as some sort of connection. Like if I tried to say "I'm Jewish so I understand criticism better" or some shit. Someone's gender identity has nothing to do with nepotism in the field of game journalism. She already agreed with PMHL then needlessly threw it in like it was somehow relevant.

[CorSair]

Phobus said:

It also needs less delicate snowflakes closing threads when they don't like the discussion is going.

Neither did I, but it was finished, so what's the point keeping it derailed further than it did already?

Besides, Jaws made this thread, so we can now dissect everything related to D2INO, as a post-mortem.

[Da Werecat]

Tarnsman said:

It had to do with bringing up an irrelevant shit that had nothing to do with the topic at hand as some sort of connection.

I don't think there was a connection implied. I may be wrong. That's for ella to elaborate on.

[Antroid]

alterworldruler said:

Sorry but you are proving your own created stereotype of doom elitism, by telling someone to shove his opinion. Just give it up already and accept that D2INO can be criticized anyway people see it, even if it's not nice.

I'm not telling someone to shove his opinion, where the hell are you seeing that? I'm telling someone to shove his holy belief in the idea that his opinion is fact, and that everything he (or some other person) doesn't like are actually objective flaws and they surely can't be just matter of taste.

Phml said:

Too many attempts to dodge any criticism and browbeat any critic into silence by claiming artistic expression and being a misunderstood rebel standing alone against the unwashed masses. Too many of them from the one same guy who's been doing it for years, while he feels free to take a dump on every other school of thought.

Antroid wants censorship so bad, why not give him just that? Ignore his replies. Act like he doesn't exist. Give him his echo chamber, and let the rest of us discuss game design.

Yet another person to completely misunderstand everything I write. All I've been saying is that people need to see a distinction between legitimate flaws and aspects that just aren't their cup of tea. I don't want any fucking censorship (yay strawmen)! By all means, post everything you didn't like about everything, just don't pretend it's the absolute truth and not just opinion.

Tarnsman said:

For the record it's not that I dislike it that I'm trying to hammer in, it's that "but it's so creative and exploratory and people only hate it because it doesn't conform to some mythical doom standards that Doom Snobs somehow have" is both wrong and borderline retarded as a defense of the criticism.

That's not really what I've been saying. I haven't been trying to call it a misunderstood masterpiece, I've only been saying that just because some jaded players didn't quite care for it doesn't make these maps objectively so much worse than some others. Because they are still perfectly enjoyable for many people, including myself. And I know you may not believe it, but I genuinely believe that I would like many of these maps actually less if they were made closer to what you want. It's not a single scale between good and bad.

Tarnsman said:

As for the whole "Two courtyards isn't a valid criticism" yes it fucking is. The goal of the project is to be the map name. That objectively fails the goal. But more importantly it feeds back into D2INOs biggest problem. Having more map than it needs to have. Maybe if the core of all these maps was solid and interesting and they just had a few areas that felt unneeded that'd be fine. But when the entire mapset for the most part feels like you tried to tried to spread way too little butter over way too much toast and there isn't a solid core that looks like it was well enough designed that the mapper should expand out instead of making the core better, then yeah it's a valid criticism. If you can't give me ONE good courtyard, why bother trying to make a second one?

No, it really isn't. Who says that the way you interpret the project goal is the correct way? Was it ever written that a map needs to entirely consist of what is in it's name and nothing else? No it wasn't. Complaints like "multiple courtyards!" or "entryway isn't just the entryway" are stupid, because it just compares the maps to how you would've done it (which seems to be entirely too literal and without imagination). Except there never was a single optimal way to handle any of these names. I like that Downtown has a bunch of subway and cavern tunnels. It adds to it. It makes it more interesting for me. There is a primary downtown area, and who the heck says that the marine's path wouldn't go through the subways? This project was not a DTWiD type strict thing, it was an excuse for people to express themselves, interpreting the names however they wished: from the metaphor that was the original Suburbs (no it isn't freaking appartments, it's a prison metaphor), to something simple like Downtown, to something that has multiple equally viable interpretations like the Living End.

Also, who are you to tell us how much map our maps needed to have? If it's more than you wanted, fine, you didn't like it, but it's just right for others, and others liked it. It's not a real flaw. As isn't the whole "flow" bullshit. It's not worth it to start a "explain in detail what flow is and how it should be just so I can disagee with you" thing, but rest assured to me many of the "bad flow" comments are absolute nonsense because I have different needs when it comes to maps.

Tarnsman said:

To further illustrate just how big these failings are. I played a map in Maximum Doom, fucking MAXIMUM DOOM (which if we're using creativity as a standard for quality - is the single greatest thing ever released for Doom), earlier tonight (deathfort.wad) that did a better job of creating a sense of place and structure than most of D2INO. Hell it even managed to look better than a lot of maps.

To further illustrate how wrong you are, I will say that you are wrong and D2INO is better than everything else, it managed to look better and be mroe interesting than literally any map ever made. Solid logic!

Tarnsman said:

Also yeah Map 19 has some problems yeah (you could probably completely remove that entire start) but it at least had that Alien Vendetta feel to it where everything felt like part of a cohesive whole.

This is hilariously subjective. To me it didn't really feel like anything.

Tarnsman said:

So if you want to sit in the hugbox be my guest but when you accept a map that is a generic techbase and isn't interesting to run around in, don't act like people are saying it's bad because it's "too creative and outside the box for them"

You don't even get the other side of the argument. Maybe try doing that before ridiculing strawmen? I'm not saying it's too interesting or good in some other way for you, I'm saying that it's a different kind of good, because surprise (actually I already said it in this post), there isn't a single line from bad to good when it comes to things like this. Some players like a smooth, streamlined experience which is carefully designed to show them pretty sights and let them dodge some fireballs. Some players like things more natural, where if a place depicted is supposed to be ugly (like the fuckin' reception area thing in Entryway, which is "architecturally uninteresting"... what a joke) then they will be ugly. Some players like to see just how cool an author can make his map, some players like when the map doesn't scream "look at how cool I am" and feels more natural, which is, and I know this is hard for you guys to accept, only augmented by discrepancies or occasional simplicity or things that aren't made to turn a map into a fucking roller-coaster of perfect shooting gameplay fun.

[Phobus]

Da Werecat said:

Looks like that post was interpreted as "I have gender identity oddities, therefore you must feel bad for criticizing me or my project". Now, did you all come up with this interpretaion by yourself, or did you just take Tarnsman's interpretation after he overreacted and started yelling?

Whether you like confrontations or not has nothing to do with strenght of your character. Sorry to rain on your parade.

1) As Tarnsman has stated, the complete irrelevance to the entire discussion is the problem, not that it's some kind of poor defence for something. Calling me out as un-PC is inaccurate due to irrelevance in this instance.

2) No, but the inability to handle them (hence shutting down all discussion) is very much just weakness and overreaction. Sorry to flush away your bullshit.

[Antroid]

Look, let's stop arguing and resume the reviewing. While I may not agree with how the criticisms are framed, they are still at least interesting, even if in the end some mappers may not take them to heart (surprisingly enough I have been defending primarily other people's maps, and believe it or not I mostly agree with what people said about 04 and want to do better).

I don't care why ella brought that stuff up, I don't care that Eris closed the thread. I just don't want people thinking that reviews in general aren't welcome unless they're glowing. My ONLY issue is with the instances when people refuse to acknowledge that something they see as a pure and 100% flaw may not be such to others and therefore it's best to not end up forcing your preferences on others by framing them as fact.

[Tristan]

Antroid said:

multiple courtyards

Nah this one's valid. It didn't help though that the author basically posted his map and then was never seen again. Again, I'll disagree with the pluralisation of MAP11, but Courtyard is perfectly valid.

But quoting this for emphasis

Look, let's stop arguing and resume the reviewing.

and quoting it again for great justice

Look, let's stop arguing and resume the reviewing.

Don't really want to be BM'ing, but this went on long enough ages ago.