Doom 2 In Name Only: An indepth review thread

[dobu gabu maru]

Processingcontrol said:

The reaction to the map is exactly what I expected. Some like it, some love it, many hate it.

I'm in the category that loved it. I stood in awe at the repeated use of the central chamber and the overall height variation of the Crusher complex, and was even thrilled by how you handled the final trap. Definitely my favorite map so far (I'm up to MAP12) and it was something I think Tarnsman was unfair against (it is too brown overall but sometimes monotype texture use can play into the setting).

[Magnusblitz]

Playing MAP06 after dobu's recommendation... I gotta agree more with Seele00TextOnly, it's a mixed bag for me. The central room with its changing height is pretty cool (though I'm not sure how to feel about it being invisible - a bit confusing at first, and for a "realistic" map of wood/stone, maybe let the player see/hear it move?). There's a fair amount of exploring to be done, and I got lost for a looong time after getting the red key but being unable to proceed because I didn't find the little hallway to the 4-way junction out of the mini-crusher room. Not a fan of the final area with the giant maze/crusher, though, kinda felt tacked-on (even though it is the crusher naming the map). And the all-brown color scheme was really drab and let it down, I think. Oh, and I agree with Jaws, the opening above-ground area was also really empty and drab, at least throw some items and decoration around.

[NuMetalManiak]

man, these next few maps were long as fuck, I only got to three of them this time.

MAP06

mixed bag indeed. I could care less about the texturing, but that central room was quite gimmicky. I spent more time backtracking through areas i've been in than killing monsters and that made the level flow downright awful. and the whole deal with multiple crushers thing, yeah that's out of place. the big crusher with the maze probably was the best part, not gonna lie. so I didn't like this one, the first i didn't like.

MAP07

first part, cool, then on to the triangle area, and then it gets ridiculous. I like triangles (heck, I once made a whole map that had only triangular sectors; it was a deathmatch map) but I couldn't be bothered here because indeed, the level just didn't fucking end. all these expansive areas (with switchhunts I might add) completely contradicted the whole "simple" part of the map name. level flow was somewhat better than MAP06 though, I didn't get too lost, the level just was too damn long.

MAP08

I got stuck in the first room for about four minutes trying to figure out where to go, that certainly sucked. but after figuring it out I was okay for the most part. lotta teleporting monsters, which I guess signified the "traps" (don't kill me) but it was a generally okay techbasey map. having a lot of keycard doors and no keys for a while was irritating though. at least I had less of a headache with this map than the others.

MAP09 soon to come.

[purist]

mouldy said:

Just to be clear, that guy isn't the author of the map, or any of the other maps in the wad. There are 17 authors in this wad and only one of them has responded badly to criticism, which is why this thread exists.

I have to make this point, because when you take some outsider's commment and extrapolate your response to apply to all the actual mappers it doesn't really help the situation.

I knew he didn't map but he was an advocating an attitude that I thought was not helpful to be attributed to the authors of this project as I'm sure the majority of contributors to D2INO do not share this attitude.

Your clarification is welcome though, I didn't want to give the impression that this was representative of the D2INO team - I've just read that rebuttal a couple of times when this WAD was criticised.

[mouldy]

purist said:

I knew he didn't map but he was an advocating an attitude that I thought was not helpful to be attributed to the authors of this project as I'm sure the majority of contributors to D2INO do not share this attitude.

Your clarification is welcome though, I didn't want to give the impression that this was representative of the D2INO team - I've just read that rebuttal a couple of times when this WAD was criticised.

Ah thats cool. Yeah the "do it yourself then" is a weird argument to make in any context, particularly in a project where the whole premise was to do that for the orginal maps.

[mouldy]

I'm gonna join in and post some comments about these maps. I've already talked about them all plenty in the original thread, but what the hell. Can't say I'm not totally biased since I made some of them, but this project wasn't really a team effort so much as a collection of disparate entities, so I can't say I have that much vested interest in the individual maps themselves.

Map01

Very nice opening map, makes a nice change to run around with a chaingun from the very beginning. Fast paced and over as quick as you want it to be. As far as ‘entryway’ goes its pretty self evident.

Map02

Nice little tunnels and lifts type adventure, layout is quite circuitous but seems more convoluted than it actually is, thanks to the organic design and well signposted navigation. Definitely has an underhalls vibe to it, also I like how it mixes a clearly artificial structure with very few 90 degree lines, difficult to pull that off without looking a bit weird but works perfectly here.

Map03

Quite similar to the last map in being a well constructed fairly linear journey through an unconventionally shaped layout. The map itself is fine, though maybe it suffers from not having such a strong theme to drive it. Not entirely sure what a gantlet even is, might be a variation of ‘gauntlet’, in the sense of ‘running the gauntlet’, which could have provided more of a memorable gameplay gimmick.

Map04

Another decent map that has the tricky job of visualising an abstract concept, I gather the ‘focus’ in this case was interpreted as something to do with earthquakes, as seen in the cracks in the underground section. If that is the case then having echoes of that in the preceding areas might have helped give the theme a bit more consistency, as it is its made from 3 separate areas that have little connection with each other, but it makes for an interesting journey.

Map05

Gorgeous nukage map, very fitting to its title. Plays really well too, if a little awkward to navigate here and there. Seeing how well this map interpreted the name is what encouraged me to get involved in the project, playing it again now I notice the false exit gives an amusing foretaste of the “doesn’t know when to end” that is going to become a recurring theme throughout the wad.

Map06

This marks a fairly abrupt style change from the previous maps, moving from realistic utilitarian environments to some kind of mysterious Indiana Jones temple. Its definitely built to annoy, and I knew it would probably rub people the wrong way. I hate that bit where you jump across crushing platforms, and the labyrinthine layout causes me endless backtracking and confusion no matter how many times I play it. Maybe it would have been kinder to have it so you only needed one of the keys, while getting both gave you some other advantage later in the map. Anyway, can’t fault it for not having a crusher, and some of the combat scenarios are quite devious.

Map 07

This map makes me laugh, it’s so spectacularly unconventional. The dead simple concept is ingeniously twisted into a fractal nightmare of repeating shapes and endlessly blooming environments, like a computer used the simplest of mathematical formulas to generate a procedural doom map. Gameplay-wise its an unapologetic slog, almost a test of endurance, and it serves as a fair warning of what to expect later in the wad. Amazingly, given how pain-in-the-arse the archvile section is, I actually much prefer it to the platforming section it replaced, so think yourselves lucky I moaned so much about that.

Map08

I think stylistically I prefer the previous incarnation of this map, where it felt more like you were being tested in a laboratory maze. The title suggests that the map itself is the enemy, whereas this feels like a general techbase where the tricks and traps are outweighed by the exploration (I think the original map08 lived up to its name more than this). Its fun to play though, if a little confusing at times to know where to go next.

Map09

This map follows the design principal that if the title mentions something specific, then the map should have the biggest damn example of that thing in it. I don’t know why it was made so enormous, and it makes travelling around it a bit of a chore. I added teleports to help speed it up, but had each one locked off until you cleared the corresponding side rooms. It might have been better to just have them free to use, but then you would never bother travelling the physical space between them, which is the general point of situating the map on the rim of a giant pit. Its completely non linear and exploratory, and features tons of entirely optional areas, which is something I like in a map, and not many people tend to do. I had a hand in tweaking the gameplay, which maybe indicates the underlying problem it has of being a place first and a game second, but then the emphasis of this project was always more about the places than the gameplay, so I can live with that if the environment tells some kind of story.

Map10

This does a fair job of looking like what its meant to be. The gameplay is quite sandboxy and I usually find ammo to be a bit tight if I’m not careful. I just realised the central area occasionally ‘refuels’ itself with monsters, I doubt that’s an intentional take on the title, but the thought that it could be amuses me. In general its one of those maps that builds a playground and pours monsters in, but the environment provides enough options to keep it interesting.

[NuMetalManiak]

MAP09

now color me shallow, i liked this. yes that pit is huge (do you think this would've been better if it were TNTINO MAP12? :P) but it totally works here. mouldy, thanks for the teleports, without them the flow of the map would have been halted by long expansive walkways that would've made it boring. yes, even despite the many monsters i wasn't appealed by those walkways. the fact that certain areas are optional is alright, although a bane for speedrunners (especially given the map length.) but i liked it too.

MAP10

this one was generally okay. what mouldy says about the central area acquiring more monsters was quite interesting, though i too don't think it was what was meant in the "refueling" mantra. didn't really think it was good, but it's not bad either. not much else to comment.

[mouldy]

Map11

Another abrupt tonal shift. This map is quite a lengthy task, dingy, complex and dangerous. Its one of those maps that you feel like you lived in for a while, it takes so long to get through it. Its take on the title is to build the whole map around a circular centre, though there is so much embellishment around it that the circle gets a bit lost amongst the maze of dungeons. Half the battle in this map is working out where to go and what to do, there are a lot of locked doors and switches to discover, not all of them entirely obvious as to their purpose, but as I always say about these kind of maps: I can’t really complain too much if I managed to get through it. This kind of marks the point in the wad where you realise this is a collection of stand-alone maps rather than a cohesive progression, and as such a lot of them tend to treat themselves as singular adventures. Which is why they end up so damn long. This one I find gets a little bit close to outstaying its welcome, but looks so cool that I can forgive it.

Map12

A tough metal techbase map, tricky but fun. There is enough factory type scenery to allude to its title, maybe more could have been done with that, dunno. Like houses, factories aren’t generally built for gameplay purposes. I can’t think of much more to say, other than it’s a decent map which plays well and looks the part.

Map13

Despite a few bullshitty traps at the start this grows into an interesting adventure. There is some convoluted switch-hunting going on, which is likely to cause some mild confusion. I find as a rule that if you are having to mark switches with clues to indicate what they are doing then you have probably taken things too far. Even with all the switch and key shenanigans there is quite a choice of how to tackle the map, which is cool. Ammo is pretty tight though from pistol start. The journey ends up meandering quite a bit and maybe doesn’t capitalise on the city scenario as much as it could. Its nice to have such a variety of locations but when you are continually moving to different areas its hard to keep a sense of progress for the player, you just feel like it’s a never ending stream of consciousness. However, there are some cool visuals to keep the story interesting, I particularly like the subway train area.

Map14

This is one I never remember much about. Its very competently made, kind of reminiscent of map02 with its crawling organic underground structure, but its very uniformly textured, which makes it sink into the background a bit. This coupled with the homogenous design makes it difficult to remember where you are and where you’ve been, which makes the non-linear parts a little confusing, but nothing major to complain about.

Map15

Bloody beast of a map, so full of stuff to do and places to go you don’t know where to begin. Crazily non-linear and fun to explore, though it feels like it isn’t quite sure how to end (it had a few different endings during its lifetime). There is a fair amount of obscure switchery, having a load of switches to activate the secret exit along with all the general switches to unlock stuff (often in other rooms) can confuse matters. But on the whole it’s a gloriously violent and sprawling adventure.

Map16

This map had a very difficult birth. Visually and thematically its all over the place, its basically 2 different maps from 2 different authors that have been welded together and beaten with hammers. The above ground section follows a suburban premise, although it adds some incongruous techbase stuff for whatever reason. The progression is very unintuitive at times, switches that unlock stuff in other places, endless backtracking to the start to get health, all of which is made rather gruelling by the ugly design. Below ground there are very long repetitive tunnels flanked by doors which are mostly just scenery, but occasionally not. There are visual clues like flickering lights to indicate which doors can open, but it does tend to grind a player down to continually see places they might be allowed to go but can’t really. The fighting is mostly ok, fairly tough and verging on bullshit in places, but the end battle is a right mess. Out of all the maps so far I think this is the first that has real problems, but given its inception this was probably inevitable.

Map17

Graphically a bit clunky (I hate that super Mario red brick texture) but tenements is what it is and what it does. The design is maybe hampered a bit by the square nature of the setting, it plays fairly well though and is quite inventive at times. Maybe a few too many surprise revenants. Still not sure why the two different outdoor areas are lit completely differently, but whatever. A decent enough map.

Map18

I’m not massively keen on this map, for a start the music is a bit silly, and the design looks a bit bland in some places and has some dodgy texturing going on. The courtyard setting could have been used better, as it is most of the action takes place in the buildings around it, and having another courtyard seems a bit wasteful. It would have been better to combine the two and use it as central focus for the map, with all other stuff fitting into the buildings around the edge. That would also give the opportunity to have firefights across the space from balconies and stuff. It feels like it doesn’t really know where its going. None of these things are too terrible on their own, but they all add up to make it kind of forgettable for me.

Map 19

Fucking hell this map. This map is what I would call a wad-killer, that is, the first time I played it I reached a point where it was impossible to finish due to running out of ammo, and not being able to finish a map is usually enough to make me give up on the whole wad. I since discovered that I had only gone about half way through it as well. Playing conservatively I eventually managed to beat it, but Christ it is tough. Not just in gameplay terms, although much of the fighting difficulty stems from lack of ammo or bullshit scenarios. The real challenge of the map is just figuring out what the hell you are meant to do. It’s a nightmare maze of courtyards, stairs and corridors arranged in the most convoluted way imaginable. So complex in fact that the author even had to include great big glowing arrows telling you where to go, which is a sure sign that your design is out of control. Added to this is a pitch black labyrinth that is torturous to navigate even with goggles, and only the vaguest sense of what the general goal of the map is, which makes it seem like it goes on forever. Except that it actually does go on forever, even when you have finished it, it keeps on going, and even when that is over there is a bit more, and then a finale, followed by the real ending, which leads to the real ending, which is in several stages. Ok I’m exaggerating a bit there, but in seriousness this map is a never-ending bastard, and while you get a real sense of glowing achievement at surviving it, its coupled with a sense that you really don’t look forward to ever playing it again. I think something like this really belongs in a later slot (preferably after all of my maps).

Map20

This was an experiment to see if I could create a siege situation where you are defending a small fort from an army of hellbastards. It’s a heavily orchestrated scenario, and I can never be totally sure it will work as intended, but if all goes well you free a bunch of captive cyberdemons from the dungeon who come to your rescue, and then give their thanks by pelting you with rockets.

[joe-ilya]

The only maps that crash vanilla are MAP01 and MAP34.

[NuMetalManiak]

MAP11

oh, man, this was grinding. it's greatly designed, but for the love of god i just got so lost in this one where it was just not fun. the progression ends up not being coherent anymore after more than fifty minutes of trying to figure out where to go. this is where i actually questioned whether or not to continue playing this, as it was far less fun than many other maps before it. because of it's great design and all, it could easily have been a standalone release.

MAP12

at least this one was fun. went pretty okay with concept and combat. i'm not sure why the Kama Sutra helicopter needed to be there though, but i'm not gonna argue.

[plums]

joe-ilya said:

The only maps that crash vanilla are MAP01 and MAP34.

Was this in DOSBox? Memfis said MAP01 crashed vanilla too but only in DOSBox. I think it has to do with the music track, for some reason, but he didn't confirm.

If it was DOSBox, would you mind deleting D_RUNNIN from D2INO.wad and then trying it again?

Not sure what the problem with MAP34 would be.

[Andy Johnsen]

Nice to see these megawads still popping up, I'm enjoying some cooperative play with a few locals these days, and new maps to roam around is a welcomed thing. Props to the authors for putting this together.

Map01 - 05 are decent maps, somewhat borderline simplistic and nothing striking, but they function well. Map04 is probably the map I enjoyed the most, with map05 comming in as a close 2nd.

Map06 and 07 shoulda been left out however. I'll give further feedback if we can muster the willpower to pick up and warp past these two - but they totally crashed the party - a thing I do not believe the authors intended. I often enjoy unconventional maps, but these just leave me annoyed at the authors instead of entertaining me, and I belive I'm supposed to have fun when I'm playing a mapset? Map07 in particular is absolutely horrible, and a good example of how creativity and innovation takes a complete nosedive and instead offers frustration, repetition and a huge, huge miss in gameplay. I was so annoyed at 06 and 07 that I'm undecided if I'll pick the mapset up again, but I'll pitch in with some more comments if I do :)

[Seele00TextOnly]

Map08 - Tricks and Traps

I enter this all ready for some tricking and trapping. I like the Berserk opening, and the Revenant hiding by the Rocketlauncher. I couldn't figure out how to leave the opening area, so embarrassing. I'll call this one incompletable due to player incompetence, since I think being stuck like this is sort of what a map like this should do. Too bad I couldn't figure it out though.

Map09 - The Pit

Well no question about a big pit in this one. I hop into the lava and find a gigantic crateroom with nothing to do in it but hit a switch that lowers a Blue Armor. Further wandering around in the pit I find the Red Skull guarded by a bunch of Revenants that I avoid. Eventually I find myself surrounded by mid-tiers who I mostly get to infight, then go in a room to get the SSG, soon enough I find myself grabbing the Yellow Key. Not having a bad go of it, so far this map is okay-ish. Obviously it's big, but I certainly feel I'm making progress. Getting the Berserk is nice.

I wander around quite a bit, get the Blue Key. Mostly I'm avoiding enemies when I can. Eventually I find the Rocketlauncher, it's about time I had over 90 Rockets already. But as for how to leave the damn map? That I have no idea on. I keep running around, this place is huge. Eventually I freeze the map to study the automap a while, figure out where the exit probably is then make my way there. Rocket through a bunch of Revenants and eventually Exit the map.

The location of the Exit needed to be more clearly telegraphed earlier on I think, and the fact that it requires all three keys too would've helped. Luckily I already had them so I wasn't upset or anything. Map is definitely big; didn't bother me as much as it seemed to bother Tarns and Dime though. And I needed that RL ages before I got it.

Map10: Refueling Base

I wander around, I kill stuff, I find a Berserk, I find lots of nuke tanks everywhere, and a messhall full of armor and health bonuses. Mostly a sort of boring stroll around, a ho-hum affair full of low-tier monsters everywhere... Eventually I find the Exit room, kill the Arachnotrons and am begrudgingly resigned to needing the Blue Key before I can exit this map. So, sigh, I go out exploring for it; come across hallway full of Spectres, leads to SSG. Come across hallway full of Demons, HK, Baron... god this is just tedious to plow through. All of that was just guarding some health and a Blue Armor. Thanks I guess but I'd really like to progress?

Eventually I find a hallway that also has an Exit sign. .. Okay .. This leads to a big hitscan ambush with tons of things spawning in behind me. Revenants, a bunch of Cacos, six goddamn PE's... Why does the map go from dead to swarming with mid-tiers just like that? It just feels like a pain in the ass really. I just run out of ammo almost immediately against all of this. (Later I found out where a bunch was and feel stupid). I dart back to where the hitscanners were and get some Rockets and the Red Key at least. Finally, progress. Luckily I've also become pretty good at getting infighting to happen, so the Mancubus help me clear out the annoying Cacos.

And the Red Door opens up to... a giant sprawling arena. I get the Blue Key at least but now a bunch of crap shows up to slow me down. I get it to infight and eventually leave, seeing more crap respawning into the map as I make way for the Exit. I luckily don't have to deal with all that and am finally free. Map felt like a bit of a slog personally.

Map11: Circle of Death

After a brief trip through the lava I find myself through the gate of the castle; after an annoyingly placed Baron I get more ammo and start exploring. I spend a long, long, long time exploring. Progresion feels totally fucked in this. I never feel like I'm making real progress, just keep running across keydoors and doors that won't open. I'll find an inaccessible key, wander around trying to figure out how to get it, and move on to the next area to continue wandering. There are enemies, sure, but mostly annoying hitscanners that keep pecking away at my health.

It's endless till I finally explore the blood tunnels and switchhunt till I eventually find all of the Skulls. It feels like quite a while, to be honest. Finally I get the stepping stones raised to the teleporter, and turns out that's the Exit. I'm just glad to be done with the map at long last. I can't say for sure whether the map is truly terrible, it felt sort of like a Mechadon map if it weren't um good. There felt like more potential here, perhaps if the damage floor was taken out and the progression felt less convoluted it wouldn't have felt like such an ordeal.

[an_mutt]

I just have 2 (maybe 3) things to say about this WAD and my inclusion that I've been meaning to say for a while now.

First of all - my maps. Tarnsman's been saying in his posts how I dislike my entires for this WAD (yes, even Map 08 to an extent), but I can't stress enough how much I dislike Map 05 and Map 17. Like, I actually considered requesting that they were pulled at one point during the end of the set's beta testing - these are maps that will have my name attached to them forever and ever and their aesthetics and design choices are so far from my preferences now that I feel a touch embarrassed whenever this mapset is brought up and they're being discussed. They're not fun to play, they aren't nice to look at and they're chock full of bad mapping traits and styles that I basically just copied off because hey, all my favourite maps from Alien Vendetta and Memento Mori do it.

Regarding Map 08, I actually remade this from my first Map 08 submission from last summer. Mouldy has some kind words for it, sure, but it was an atrocious mess with bad layout, cramped hallways everywhere and ugly texturing. When Eris announced that a final deadline for the first full beta around the start of this year, I had been planning remakes of each of my maps. As the deadline was only a couple days away I had to choose the map I liked the least and just remade that - as I speedmapped the new Map 08 however I couldn't devote too much time to playtesting and as a result didn't devote enough time to fulfilling the community project goal in a satisfying manner. I'm not tying to use this as an excuse because there was a 2-3 month period of playtesting where I could have easily tailored the gameplay to suit the map name more but I was lazy and hey, this map looks good and it plays better than my last submissions.

---

Secondly, I need to bring up the community response to the general quality of these maps. I'm a semi-pro local grinder of events for the game Magic: The Gathering, and one thing I've learned in regards to that game in particular is that people can develop a strong level of investment and attachment in things they are still learning about. I've watched multiple grown men who are learning to play competitive MTG get incredibly upset about stupid little pieces of cardboard, to the point where they swear at people around them and throw things around because things didn't go exactly how they want it to and it's so unfair guys I got really unlucky and what do you expect me to do, and, and,

I'm spotting a lot of the same thing here from this thread. Right now some of the people who worked on D2INO are those kids I see huffing and moaning about how shit their evening was every Friday night - a lot of people who made maps for D2INO were effectively making their mapping debut here. Tarnsman calls this wad a hugbox, and I can't disagree with him, because a lot of these new mappers were using the project of a means of learning the ropes in a community proeject setting. I'm not surprised one bit at some of their reactions when the general consensus of this was is 'IT'S FUCKING SHIT', because of the investment they have in it. I know I was pissed off after watching Tarns and Alfonso rip my maps apart in the alpha stream from last year - it's embarrassing and frustrating to see people completely write off and disregard something you've put time and effort into. At the very least, it's easy to become good at a game like Magic: The Gathering because there are a hundred Tarnsmans everywhere (perish the thought) who will tell you, straight up, "your decisions today were bad, and here's why they were bad..." because if that is the echo chamber then you learn a lot really fast. There isn't a hugbox to turn to and say "this guy was mean to me"* because they'll tell you the same thing.

At the very least, people like Tarnsman are making an effort to explain their ideas and to educate other mappers in the community. One thing that is sorely lacking in this community is the amount of overall material that's being produced with the intention of informing other mappers on mapping ideas, or styles or anything like that. Going back to MTG for a sec, I can't browse a Magic website without stumbling across some player's article full of theories that he's just bursting to tell me. I can't walk 5 metres at a Magic event without finding myself in a group discussing deck construction and similar ideas. The closest the Doom cumminity has to that - as far as I know - is an IRC channel that I had to google to even find the channel and room name for, and a stream that I wouldn't have heard of its regulars hadn't have made fun of a mapset that I made some bad levels for. Man, I don't even know what the point of this aside even is now... maybe I'm just spoiled? Magic players have it goooood when it comes to comminuty interaction and content. I guess I'm just boasting now. Also, educating other mappers and improving their styles leads to better maps and better mapping ideas being explored and shared - which is just sweet value right there.

* I'm ignoring EDH here. Don't play EDH. It's a Bad Format.

[mouldy]

Map 21

Tranquil punchfest in the afterlife. Can be a bit tricky in places, the mancubus in particular always gives me trouble. Punching demons in the face can involve quite a bit of luck, so I’m glad the enemy count is fairly small. Scenery is suitably surreal, not sure about he canoe and paddle though, if that is what they are. Feels like having a little holiday before going back to work.

Map22

It’s a dark scurry through unpredictable underground areas. The visuals do a great job of selling the atmosphere, the creepy music helps of course. The layout is a bit odd, it turns into a hub within a hub, but its fairly well signposted I guess. There was a slight moment of feeling lost the first time I played maybe, but nothing too severe. The gameplay is ok, but a lot of the fights can be quite easily escaped without the monsters following you, and with no need to revisit any of the spokes of the journey its possible to get through a lot of the map without engaging with the monsters, the final battle in particular lets you escape to the exit without killing anything other than some barrels. Its not a big deal though.

Map 23

This map plays like a sequence of mini challenges, some tough, some not so tough, some gimmicky and some downright bullshitty. Barrels are involved in many of them, though not all. I can’t say I’m a fan of this kind of map, the constant drip feed of gameplay nuggets as you go from one battle to the next destroys any sense of place that a map has, and the author has some kind of quirky ideas about design that stray into ugliness at times. There are some gameplay crimes in here, the biggest offenders for me are the mastermind/arachnotron/chaingunner battle, the room of the exploding barrel hellknight gauntlet (with added revs and pain elementals), inconsistently damaging nukage and enemies shooting at you through walls. I guess this is taking the “fun” of the title in an ironic way, much like the original, but having played some of this guy’s other maps I do have to wonder how much he playtests them.

Map24

This map certainly lives up to its title. It’s a splendidly twisting, circling and overlapping path winding in and around the length of a chasm. Visually it looks a bit uniformly textured for my taste, but I can survive a bit of beige now and then. I don’t tend to have fun with this map, the ammo balance is so strict that I have to watch every bullet, and constantly backtrack for supplies, and still I usually end up with empty pockets. The fights themselves are pretty well orchestrated, and maybe its more fun if you bring in a load of ammo from the previous map, but from pistol start I end up having to leave a lot of deadly stuff wandering around and suffer the consequences. I have ammo trouble on other maps so it might just be a problem with my aim. Also I have to be eternally grateful for this map replacing the previous submission for Chasm which was completely doolally.

Map 25

Can’t say much about this one since I made it, not had any complaints though. Dunno if that’s just cos not many people get this far in the wad… The cyberdemon in the forest of pillars can be a bit frustrating, and maybe it goes on one room longer than it needs to, but I’m pretty happy with it.

Map 26

Perfectly decent map, nothing too memorable but nothing to complain about, except maybe that the damaging floor is set to maximum so that you get hurt even with a rad suit on, don’t think that’s a good idea if you have no choice about walking through it. Fairly conventional design compared to some of the wackier maps in this collection, maybe that’s why it doesn’t stand out so much, but it does the job just fine.

Map27

This map is a bit mental to be honest, not necessarily in a good way. It has a pretty tenuous link to the title, and is full of bizarre design choices and dodgy gameplay. I think the only reason it is in the wad at all is because nothing better came along. Its worth playing just to see how weird, unpredictable and nonsensical it gets, but I really can’t imagine many people enjoying the experience.

Map28

Another one of mine, though I’d be surprised if many people get this far. If you do then your reward is to be hounded through a system of interconnected rooms and corridors by an angry horde. Its pretty chaotic and relentless, so may not be everyone’s cup of tea I guess.

Map29

Pretty cool map, I like how the various routes all join up. There are a bunch of switches to find to unlock the exit, and they are all pretty well guarded, but you can do them in any order, so if one gives you too much trouble you can always try another one. Fairly tricky in places, and as usual I tend to run out of ammo, but it looks cool enough that these things don’t bother me. The map title is as abstract as it gets, but I guess this interpretation is as good as any.

Map30

Bit of an experiment this one, still not sure how well it works, but I was so sick of normal IOS fights that I wanted to try something different. By this stage in the party I imagine most people have either gone home or are too drunk to care, so what the hell.

Map31

Utterly lovely looking map, can’t fault the visuals at all. Perfect fit for the wolfenstein slot. There is a point where you end up back at the start and aren’t really sure what to do next, which can lead to a bit of backtracking and puzzlement if you go the wrong way, but that’s a pretty minor niggle when a map looks this good.

Map32

Kind of ugly looking map after the previous one, with a lot of clashing hell textures. Thats not such a big deal for a secret map I suppose. I’m not entirely sure how it follows the map title either, but it’s a shortish map at least.

Final thoughts

It’s quite a mixture of styles and ideas, often interesting and occasionally meandering and frustrating. Some of these maps are an acquired taste and wont be a friendly experience for casual players, and there are a few that I would consider a bit ropey, but overall its not a bad collection. Feels like a lot of the mappers were using the project as an opportunity to try things out and experiment, which is cool, even if the results were a bit hit and miss in places.

[Da Werecat]

mouldy said:

Map30

Bit of an experiment this one, still not sure how well it works, but I was so sick of normal IOS fights that I wanted to try something different.

Ironically, this map felt like everything I don't like about IoS maps magnified by 10: I had to run an unpleasant obstacle course and solve frustrating puzzles as shit kept spawning around me. :)

I never finished it, and never even bothered to write my feedback on it - it was a little too late for any serious changes anyway.

[Antroid]

It's a bit late but I will just point out that the "canyon" in map04 has a [flimsy] reason to exist - the cracked cement bridge between the starting shack and the shitbase should be a clue, and some people seem to have gotten it, while others haven't - that whole thing opened because of the earthquake, but I guess I didn't carry it across well enough so it wasn't in any real way foreshadowing to the earthquake theme like I think I wanted it to be.

Also, not to stir up old shit (the thread's gotten surprisingly good, I wonder if there is a connection between this and me not being here during the weekend?), but since I assume mouldy meant me as the only one who reacted badly to criticism - in a desperate attempt to not look quite as bad I just want to also point out that I only reacted that way to criticism of others' maps and the mapset as a whole, and not of my actual maps.

Although I do still have problems with phrases like "I didn't like it because it wasn't good" (ugh) and that other guy continuously not understanding what "in name only" means (hint: doesn't mean ", but consisting of only what's in the names"), I definitely appreciate everyone coming here with their comments, even if most aren't even nearly as "in-depth" or long the ones from Jaws' OP.
Also despite everything I really want Jaws and Tarnsman to continue their in-depth reviews as well, Tarnsman could probably repost what he started from the previous thread for starters. Just to keep it organized.

[mouldy]

Da Werecat said:

Ironically, this map felt like everything I don't like about IoS maps magnified by 10: I had to run an unpleasant obstacle course and solve frustrating puzzles as shit kept spawning around me. :)

I never finished it, and never even bothered to write my feedback on it - it was a little too late for any serious changes anyway.

I'm ok with IOS fights being a little bit obscure, since its not like they will stop the player from progressing in the wad if its map30. What I hate is the timed running switch pressing platform rising rocket firing type stuff. This one is probably too obscure since it isn't clear what the general goal is. All you do is visit each area and then pick up a key to go kill the boss. Collecting the weapons on the way will stop the monsters spawning.

In the end I think the best idea for IOS fights is just to have a timed arena where the goal is to survive a certain length of time with the random spawning monsters. Really thats enough to think about without solving puzzles and shit.

[NuMetalManiak]

MAP13

I...liked this. yes there's an annoying switch hunt in the "Town", but it wasn't too bad a level despite that. I think I got the "Down" portion of the level too, with that tunnel network, now it starts to make sense. long, but I liked it. someone might have expected a huge city network though.

MAP14

quite intricate, but far better done than the longer maps. no need to comment on anything for this.

MAP15

oh man, you went WAYYY too far cannonball. yes, gameplay kept me on my toes, but at the end of it all it was tiring and grinding to the point of not being fun. plus it's too long. feels like an industrial zone? yep, but something of a gigantic unrealistic one that would never exist. the multiple switches to open the secret exit was expected, but i was tired long before hitting them all and just warped out.

MAP31

yep, the best one. Xaser was probably one of the few who bothered with making it commerically playable with regular megawad progression, props for that. I get that it was longer than some maps, but it's just the right length, and it totally fucking works.

MAP32

shortest map in the set. pretty Demonfear quality for this one which isn't bad. concept was captured pretty well too. good job

looks like i'm halfway through. many of the longer maps went on for too long, and I only really liked MAP09 and MAP13 out of those ones. the secret levels were a nice breather from that stuff.

[Antroid]

I'm actually really surprised at all the "long maps!" comments. It never even crossed my mind while playing this back in the day that any map apart from 07 (where I totally enjoyed it because I knew I was getting trolled) and 19 was too long. Heck, I thought 31 ended way too quickly and abruptly.

[plums]

an_mutt said:

At the very least, it's easy to become good at a game like Magic: The Gathering because there are a hundred Tarnsmans everywhere (perish the thought) who will tell you, straight up, "your decisions today were bad, and here's why they were bad..." because if that is the echo chamber then you learn a lot really fast.

Interesting post in total an_mutt and I see where you're coming from. However the analogy to MtG really falls apart for me in considering that Doom mapping is not a competition. With a competitive game there's a clear outcome for every match. With a creative endeavour, the success is at least in part subjective. So, the usefulness someone saying "here's what you did wrong" isn't always so clear-cut, especially if their advice goes against what you were trying to do or what you like in a map. Obviously people can use this as a way of dismissing criticism, and perhaps that has been happening here, but it's also pretty much impossible to make something that will please everyone.

I am enjoying the reviews so far coming in from multiple people. Too bad Jaws started this thread right before he had to move. I do hope Tarnsman does the other 10 maps, even in brief.

For my part I will quickly say that I enjoyed MAP06, and didn't get lost. There were multiple crushers but I recognized that one was clearly The Crusher, and thought that it was a pretty ballsy design choice but one that I liked.

MAP07... if it were called "scifista42 makes a map with triangles" I would have liked it. As it stands now it's maybe the most enjoyable trollmap ever. Got to agree 100% with Antroid here, the subversion on the normal MAP07 concept and name is great and people complaining "it's not simple!" is endlessly amusing.

[Antroid]

plums said:

Got to agree 100% with Antroid here

You shouldn't have done that

[GoneAway]

I enjoyed map 6 because it's a broken map and I skipped the first 2 keys :^)

[Marcaek]

07 is not fun either unless you like slogs i guess

[Doomkid]

plums said:

MAP07... if it were called "scifista42 makes a map with triangles" I would have liked it. As it stands now it's maybe the most enjoyable trollmap ever. Got to agree 100% with Antroid here, the subversion on the normal MAP07 concept and name is great and people complaining "it's not simple!" is endlessly amusing.

I never would have guessed this was by scifista, I tend to really enjoy the stuff he makes!

[NuMetalManiak]

MAP16

just what the fuck does that tunnel or prison-like section have to do with Suburbs exactly? the other section is fine though, although the backtracking causes flow to be rather terrible. not a good map at all.

MAP17

this is alright, shorter than most other maps, but overall it wasn't too impressive. better than the previous one though.

MAP18

another map which i think is okay despite there being muliple courtyards. perhaps the main problem was there wasn't as much fighting in the courtyards as opposed to inside the buildings. i apparently heard that this map was rushed or something, is this true?

[RedShift]

I've played the first 8 maps so far. I'm a bit of a maverick when it comes to what I like in a map, so I understand why most people have issues with the WAD, but I'm really enjoying playing it. Yes, the tonal shifts are extreme, and some of the areas are a bit tight, and some of the layouts are weird, and some of the levels are convoluted to the point of frustration...I understand all that. But whatever. I just like it. Okay?? Hehe.

There's something charming about it all. It feels like something made by real people with their own ideas. Also, none of the levels thus far made me feel like I was being thrown into a giant mess of hallways without a clue where to go. Even the most convoluted of mazes felt oddly organized and thought out.

I actually appreciated how MAP07 was the exact opposite of what you'd expect, so that the "Dead Simple" aspect could be intentionally ironic while simultaneously referencing the construction out of only triangles. The idea made me laugh while I was playing the level. I'd guess that the subtlety got lost on most people or that they just don't care for that kind of thing, but it tickled me all the way through.

I'm still playing. Maybe I'll get annoyed with the WAD later. For now, I understand why everyone else doesn't really like D2INO, but I personally do.

EDIT: Played MAP09. Continue to enjoy it. Space was gigantic but I was not confused about where to go.

[_bruce_]

Very interesting read - thanks to the reviewers for taking the time.

In hindsight Map03 was way to much in the spirit of the original(as Ella pointed out) and it had 0 to do with a Gauntlet besides resembling a Gauntlet from the Doom universe... which is kinda weak.
My maps are more of a travel than a ride.

Mission accomplished.

[dobu gabu maru]

an_mutt said:

I just have 2 (maybe 3) things to say about this WAD and my inclusion that I've been meaning to say for a while now.

I just wanted to add a counterpoint and state that even if you thought your maps were outright garbage, I still had an enjoyable time with them (I like them just as much as bruce's stuff). I know you're hesitant to have your name attached to them but there's far, far worse out there and I think it's personally alright to publish stuff with missteps—especially if they play fine and don't drag on forever. The only map out of the megawad I've regretted playing so far was MAP09, but otherwise everything else seems to be standard fare... certainly not 2/5 quality (well, unless your standards for a community project are extremely high).

[Demon of the Well]

Guess I'll throw in my couple of grimy, odd-smelling pennies as well, since most of the other DWMC regs are chipping in. In the interest of full disclosure, I'll say up front that I wasn't personally particularly enthralled by the 'In Name Only' concept--not because it's necessarily one without potential, just because it's actually something I've seen more than a few PWADs (of varying levels of build quality) do more than once over the years, not only for Doom II, but also for OG Doom (granted, these were mostly limited to KDiTD). Don't rightly recall if I've ever seen a full 32 levels of the idea before, though, D2INO might be the first in that regard. Anyway, all that being said, when I look at ostensibly concept-focused WADs like this, I usually judge the maps primarily on how entertaining I find them rather than on how on-point they are as regards the concept (it's not uncommon to see something fail the concept but still be fun, or fulfill the concept and be a real bore to experience); although really interesting takes on a given concept are always worth bonus points, of course.

I play on Ultra-Violence, pistol-starts. I tend not to save the game much, if at all, but if some of these maps are as long as I've been led to believe I reckon it'd be prudent for me to do so, eh?

Map 01 -- Entryway
Ah, ProcessingControl. I quite liked his two maps in Interception, and I've heard good things about his TNT 2 map, but I've not played that one. This map kicks the mapset off at a nice pace, spamming crowds of weak enemies at the player to be summarily dispatched in a hail of hip-fired chaingun rounds with an unhealthy dose of toxic barrel splash for good measure. This kind of senseless violence is something I'd consider to be one of the author's signatures; not surprised to see it from him, but it is an odd choice for map 01. I appreciate how rapidly the body count climbs, but the map's definitely on an adrenaline downslope from the moment it starts (or at least from the moment you first sink your finger on the trigger, anyway) until the moment it ends. Incidentally, I don't personally take issue with the fact that the map doesn't end once the player passes through the prominent Entryway per se; although I would agree that the stuff on the other side is a bit of a letdown simply because the action continuously tapers off from what was seen/done outside. I think the lack of barrels accounts for a lot of this, and the demon trap's really only fun to fight if you've already got the berserk secret when it springs. The other thing that struck me is that this map is visually quite bland, especially the indoor section--like knocking around inside of a big empty washing machine, or something. I can buy the stark, bare style used to depict the Entryway itself, but eh....I know this author can do a lot better, I can only assume the featureless decor has something to do with his interpretation of the concept.

Map 02 -- Underhalls
Right, the first of the much-vaunted Bruce maps. I believe his stuff in D2INO is the first I've ever seen of his mapping. Can't really award any points for the theme/concept here; there are halls, and they have a vaguely subterranean aspect to them (no sky except for that one out-of-left-field orthogonal tunnel upstairs), so one can't really say the map fails to be 'Underhalls', but this most obvious of interpretations of one of the most straightforward map titles in Doom II doesn't really win any points for flair, either (some might reasonably argue that a lot of the map titles in Doom II are perhaps too starkly literal to really be interpreted in many ways). Much has been made of the odd 'freehand naked in a -15 degree room' nature of the way Bruce draws his shapes; I'll grant that this certainly adds a unique feel to the map, but from a structural/progression standpoint this is an extremely simple and linear map, could almost be procedurally generated if not for the 'human touch' of those trembly shapes. Monster placement is very direct; zombies and imps stand in front of you around the various bends and are promptly mown down; no traps or feints that I can remember. Not offensive, but not at all inspiring--I feel like I could've played this map immediately after a lobotomy and got through it just fine. The one thing I most remember liking was the soulsphere; kinda amusing how it keeps finding ways to coyly stay just out of your reach somehow until the end. With more articulation like that in the map progression, or more nuance (or even just teeth) to the monster deployment, this might've been a map to remember, but as it is I don't reckon it's going to stick with me.

Map 03 -- The Gantlet
Ah, the 'ol Gantlet/Gauntlet deal. Well, I assume the titular 'Gauntlet' is supposed to be the section with the crushers and monster closets at the very end (doesn't seem like there's enough fire poured on at any point for the four-way crossroads setup earlier in the map to be the Gauntlet); pretty perfunctory/halfhearted take on the concept, I think. Other than that, this looks and feels just like the last map except now the texture scheme is different (about the same number and admixture of textures, though), underscoring that odd sense of procedural generation juxtaposed with the obvious human agency of the strangely 'palsied fractal' look of many of the shapes. Now that I think of it, what these Bruce maps really remind me of is the late PhobosDeimos1's mapping--Bruce draws his shapes in a very different way, but the carefree, impromptu simplicity of the mapflow is much the same, as are the commitment to 2-3 main textures per map and the thing placement (though granted PhobosDeimos had a tendency to shit unnecessary ammo and powerups at the player, which Bruce does not). Again, the action is too perfunctory to really catch my attention; again, the most interesting aspect of the map is some of its secrets, particularly the surprisingly involved one that eventually sees you climbing and jumping around on the embankments in the crossroads section. Again, this is a perfectly playable/reasonable map, but that's about all I can say for it--I reckon I'll find it easier to remember Bruce's general style in the future than to remember any of his specific maps, if these first two are par for the course.

Map 04 -- The Focus
Seems like this map takes the project's concept a lot more seriously than the first three maps did. 'The Focus' is one of those map titles where there's a lot more room for novel interpretations (versus something like 'The Catacombs', 'Suburbs', etc.); looks like Antroid's involves some seismic mishap (ostensibly Hell-related, of course). I didn't hate playing this map, but it never seems like it's firing on all cylinders at once. The initial outdoor section is a bit dry in both action and visuals (I think I'd have liked it more with some different lighting choices), but I can buy that it's supposed to be a relatively concise way of foreshadowing the disaster at the end of the map (I assume the broken grey bridge is supposed to communicate that the land on its two sides have drastically changed altitude lately), and I did like the SSG secret. The interstitial green techbase is the map's low point; more bland visuals (here it's definitely a function of the flat lighting) and some mindless room-clearing, although I think Antroid used instant-raise floors at one point to place a deaf zombie or two in an ambush position, might be something to watch out for in the future. The final section, an underground maintenance area that has been devastated by the hell-quake, is thematically interesting--glowing red lava/rocks contrast with dim subterranean lighting to set a scene--but this comes at the cost of gameplay, as chainsawing lone lost souls while wandering around the erstwhile lava maze is anything but exciting from an action standpoint, and not committed/deep enough to get by on atmosphere. Overall this is more the kind of thing I'd like to see as far as interpreting the map names goes, but this particular map never delivers any real action to complement/complete its setting, and feels like it's tethered to the bland green base section on purely thematic grounds; I've seen this 'narrative' kind of map progression work to good effect before, but it's not particularly well-executed here.

Map 05 -- The Waste Tunnels
Ah, toxic waste. I always interpret the 'waste' in the nomenclature to refer to crass raw sewage/grey water, myself, but I reckon this is equally as valid an interpretation. As was the case with map 02, I don't think one can really argue that this doesn't adequately portray the theme, but it's not like sewers/poison-processing plants are an uncommon theme for Doom maps, so the map doesn't really gain any particular interest from it, either. You can see some of the traits of an inexperienced modern mapper at work here--generally a very small scale to most of the rooms/area, a very linear progression wrung dry via unabashed and equally linear backtracking, seesawing levels of sector-based detail over the duration of the map, etc. It's too direct/simple to be really engaging from a combat perspective, but I've seen worse; one thing an_mutt did do a fairly good job with was weapon placement, in that you can get each new weapon moments before being able to use it to efficiently dispatch this or that monster attack, which smooths over some of the task of grinding through HP chunks to move forward. I wanted to compliment him on remembering to keep the major backtrack back to the red door from being too uneventful, but I really can't; the cacos from the oozefalls are thematically okay I guess, but the flood of specters into various rooms just adds game time without adding any threat. Unfortunately, a lot of the pitfalls of this particular type of layout end up bogging down the map, the primary issue being that all of the rooms are so small and squidgy that most of the fights unavoidably end up taking place through doorways or other chokepoints, which gets old fast. The consistently small scale also makes the presentation visually busy to the point where some of the map's positive touches get lost in the noise; e.g. I didn't even notice until my second look that the red key is displayed through a screen up on a wall in a squidgy little interstitial chamber early in the map.

More when/if I've got time, I guess.