Doom 2 In Name Only: An indepth review thread

[plums]

Eris Falling said:

Looks like it MAP12'd and reverted itself.
Well, since this needs a new upload, I think there's some other less essential things that need sorting out too?

* MAP01 music breaks in vanilla doom under DOSBox. I remember I complained about this track way back when, maybe you changed it? I guess just take the version from mmmus.wad instead and I'll deal.

* MAP27 has some imps stuck in sector 115 still, according to TimeOfDeath. Honestly if that's the only technical problem left with this map I think you did pretty well :p

* The cyberdemon in MAP22 often won't teleport because his teleport line is W1 instead of WR.

Maybe some other things brought up in this thread (or the last one?) also.

[joe-ilya]

The teleporting mancubus in MAP11 won't move when teleported because he's stuck in a wall.

[Fellowzdoomer]

This is odd. I loaded up D2INO in chocolate doom and it didn't crash...

[joe-ilya]

Fellowzdoomer said:

This is odd. I loaded up D2INO in chocolate doom and it didn't crash...

Try it with vanilla. And it will.

[Fellowzdoomer]

You guys get this?

[TimeOfDeath]

Here's a map28 max in 11:33.

mouldy - in map20 I ran to the back of the fort just out of habit from my fda, I didn't realize you could just go into it from the front lol.

[joe-ilya]

Fellowzdoomer said:

You guys get this?

Yes, removing the MIDI will get rid of the crash.

[mouldy]

TimeOfDeath said:

Here's a map28 max in 11:33.

Nicely done. Good to see all the monsters you left up the top followed you downstairs, I should have made it so all the ones on ledges do that too, save a bit of mopping up.

[Antroid]

TimeOfDeath said:

btw, more FDAs

One more thanks for these, obviously I only watched the ones of my maps and I really enjoyed them. You played 24 pretty much exactly like I was envisioning it while mapping. I'm still not THAT used to seeing my maps played so it's extra cool and a great satisfaction for whatever effort I put into the maps. Shame you skipped the red key part of 24 and didn't find the more complex secrets around the cyberdemon area, but oh well. Would've been frickin' amazing if you got the megasphere though, that secret's not the fairest to figure out because it involves several barely obvious steps.
But I gotta ask, were my maps (24 and 29) actually fun to play? You made them look like barely a challenge (well, apart from the start of 29 with the "puzzle"... also that bobbing corpse thing at the unfortunate end was funny as hell). I don't remember you commenting specifically on them at any point, sorry if you had and I forgot/missed it. I'm supposed to totally suck at making good gameplay because I suck at playing doom and get sick of testing my maps very quickly, but maybe the "easier for the author" and "author sucks at doom" factors balanced each other out.

[Demon of the Well]

Map 18 -- The Courtyard
I didn't much care for this. It seemed lifeless or phoned-in in a lot of ways, I think. For example, the various halfhearted references to Doom II's map 18--the little nukage pit visible from the window at that start, the lines of potions/helmets traced towards the red key pole, the glowing crackle/marble room (which at least resists the temptation to be a maze, I suppose), etc.--while almost wholly irrelevant to most of the map's limited gameplay concepts, are just pronounced enough to remind one of Sandy's homely old romp, which is not a favorable comparison in this map's case, since Doom II's map 18 has a lot more ideas in it and is simply a lot more fun to play. If my quickness here in making a direct competitive comparison to an IWAD map seems like a cheap dismissive cop-out, it's because I'm finding it difficult to speak about this map in detail....I played it earlier this evening and I've already forgotten half of it.

The basic problem is simply that its layout is very unimaginative and its monster usage is equally so--lots of basic box-rooms with one entrance and one exit, and all of its enemies placed in a very immediate (and often static) way, very boring because it offers neither guile nor challenge nor any real scope for tackling encounters in more than one way. You open a door, you hold down fire for a few moments, and then you do your progression-chore (hit a switch, whatever), and then you leave promptly, because few if any of the rooms are worth stopping to admire on the basis of aesthetic or locational intrigue. Everything is very flat, everything is very boxy, texture combos are standard at best and garish at worst, and little attention has been paid to lighting, with most of the map hovering in a nondescript neutral zone. I've seen far uglier maps than this, but there's no atmosphere here to speak of. The southwestern cross-spoke area is essentially the map's posterchild; it neatly encapsulates all of the different design choices that prevent me from being able to feel even a hint of enthusiasm for what's on offer here.

Earlier discussions in this thread have tacitly posited a sort of dichotomy (a patently false one, I think, but that's a subject for another time) between nuanced, well-staged combat and the establishment of 'sense of place' or of modes of map progression/traversal that are 'outside the box' or are reliant largely on immersion and depth of setting to lend them weight. This map fails summarily on both counts--its structure and nature largely preclude the potential for satisfying combat or an interesting path through the level (that all of its areas are mandatory doesn't help this), and its aesthetics are too directionless and makework to lend any spark to the lifeless action. As I've said before, I'm not very invested in how much of a point each of the D2INO maps makes of doggedly living up to its name, but this one even falls flat on that count as well--there are two courtyards, one of which is utterly meaningless in every way, and the other of which contains the red key and a large (but simplistic and perfunctory) battle. Both are presented in a very undramatic way; neither feel like a defining feature of the map, rather more like they are here because they were required to be in order to nominally satisfy the project guidelines.

There have been a lot of maps in D2INO I've been critical of for various reasons, but this is the only one so far I would be quick to describe as 'filler.' Let us hope it's a one-off.

[joe-ilya]

joe-ilya said:

Yes, removing the MIDI will get rid of the crash.

Funny how the picture I quoted was replaced by a bigger one, oh well.

[Demon of the Well]

And lo, the wind doth blow...

Map 19 -- The Citadel
Remember when I said map 09 was 'very 90s?' Well, despite the greater degree of polish and organization, this is even more 90s, in its way. Doom Underground used to occasionally use the term 'Monster Level' in its reviews, defined as a big, sprawling, adventurous affair (often but not necessarily the author's first map) that piles on idea after idea, area after area, and task after task to such a degree that it's easy to lose track of what's going on--often to the point where the level itself seems to lose track of just specifically what it's trying to be. While this map is naturally far more thematically/aesthetically coherent and contains more in the way of practical guideposts than many of those monsters of yore, nevertheless a 'Monster Level' is exactly what this is to me--a big meandering hot mess of Doom. Don't misunderstand me, I'm glad I experienced the map, even if some specific aspects of it were rather half-baked (in true Monster Level style). This kind of thing is very much an acquired taste, like many other sprawling adventure/odyssey-styled WADs I could name--Eternal Doom, the like. While the audience for that style of map seems fairly small these days, I happen to belong to it, so I was happy to oblige once it became apparent just what an undertaking this was going to be (read: when I picked up the computer area map early on).

Vintage maps in this style have a tendency to be thematically incoherent, with each specific gameplay concept being rendered as a self-contained little microcosm (see: Sandy Petersen, Jim Flynn, Bob Evans, et a); often abstract in the extreme, these maps tend to be framed as surreal and somewhat disjointed journeys; tons of memorable vignettes, little overarching sense of place other than what the player actively imagines for him/herself. Guided by the 'In Name Only' stipulation of the project, scifista was compelled to try to imbue the map with a sense of thematic unity despite its polyglot nature. In execution, I'd say the final product turned out rather similarly to ProcessingControl's map 06, with many of the same strengths and weaknesses. Like that map, there is an extended and mostly cinematic preamble to the map proper; like that map, there is a very strong commitment to a very limited set of largely understated textures/resources (miles of coal-grey stone with some wood/plaster/metal interiors, mainly); like that map, the important areas are woven together by a complicated labyrinth of claustrophobic interstitial tunnels, which are at time somewhat unintuitive (or even counterintuitive) to navigate, given how tightly packed a lot of the playable space is.

The unswerving thematic consistency does help the map to establish a sense of location, but also contributes to a growing reduction in the map's visual interest after a while (and, perhaps more seriously, can make some areas appear interchangeable from a navigational standpoint), but most of what's presented serves as a reasonable backdrop for the outing, at least. It was a bold decision to have the map be so persistently dimly-lit; I imagine this will alienate more than a few players, but seeing as I'm the guy always complaining about flat/neutral lighting and saying 'it would look better if it were generally darker', I was glad for it. The 'Citadel' theme is mostly treated with during the preamble, when the player gets a view of the building (actually a cleverly-scaled mockup--nice use of the engine's simulated contrast, I must say)) from a distance; once you're inside the meat of the map, this theme quickly sublimates into the morass of corridors and wandering about (although you do come upon a set of His/Hers thrones at one point, I suppose), so I wouldn't say it's an especially strong or dedicated iteration of the 'In Name Only' concept, but that's not something I really have much of a problem with in this case. It's true that if I take a step back and look at it I feel like I can say the layout is flawed in a lot of ways....it looks highly interconnected but is actually fairly awkward and inefficient to navigate (again, much like map 06's), even once you've learned it and even if you gain access to some of the secret teleporter chains, largely because so many crucial areas can only be reached in one specific way, and because there's a TON of backtracking to be done (the entire progression is based on successively branching paths gated in pairs or in triplets by key doors spread all around the map). And yet, I find the whole thing strangely interesting, not unlike a great gnarly tangle of knotted X-mas lights that one feels compelled to untangle; there is a certain satisfaction in learning the map's tricks and secrets, eventually conquering its labyrinthine (and a bit makework, at times) progression.

Periodically, there are engaging setpieces--the HK/Baron trap at the main gate, the gore-strewn chapel (with a corpse/vile setup that works quite a bit better than map 31's, incidentally), etc.--and periodically, there are sections that are rather a chore to see through, by far the greatest offender in this latter regard being the dark winding lift-maze that (at long fucking last) eventually allows you to remove an obstacle preventing you from reaching the last key. Some areas are quite clever and require some quick thinking, others are rather tedious, but there's a ton of variety over the course of the whole adventure, oddly unified by the mostly unwavering aesthetic theme. There are tons of secrets and little quirks to uncover as well; in my 1:27:27 playtime, I was able to find something like 14/15 of the 19 secrets, ranging from understated shellbox cubbies to a strange sky-walled top-down model of the citadel, but there was still more to discover--I was not able to open a wooden door near the yellow-locked bedchamber for the life of me, for example, and am left wondering what I missed.

Parts of this map are certainly a chore, but as a whole experience, it is suitably engrossing and maintains a certain sense of intrigue through most of its duration, which oddly seems more impressive to me because it manages this while being fairly uncharismatic aesthetically. It's the kind of map where one develops a sort of 'Stockholm syndrome' regarding its idiosyncrasies as a result of being immersed in it for so long, something which by definition wouldn't happen if the map were failing to be immersive, so....despite some very real issues and somewhat inconsequential treatment of the name theme, I'm still going to call this map a success as an experience.

Map 20 -- Gotcha!
Very witty, this. Of all of the map titles in Doom II, "Gotcha!" is perhaps the one that leaves the most room for free interpretation; mouldy's take on the name sees Doomguy as a pawn in an arch-vile's twisted game. The map's fairly concise, presenting a short series of tricky scenarios that have a way of neatly--even ironically--resolving themselves if you can just manage to keep your cool. The centerpiece is naturally the siege situation that develops in the first few moments of play, with Doomguy doing his own little Shawshank Redemption bit (although I half expected to start hearing the iconic theme from "The Great Escape", heh) to eventually outflank and outwit the legions of Hell-beef coveting his life, courtesy of a few friendly neighborhood skyscrapers (w/ goat legs). Most of the actual substance of combat is very simplistic (most of the time the correct solution is not to directly engage in combat at all), with the blind-alley/three-closet fight in the subterranean area being the only encounter to require any real degree of fancy footwork, but generally speaking I don't think this is much of an issue for this map, since it's more about watching the novel scenario develop and then unfold than about fancy battle choreography. A few things seem a little odd or off to me--I wish there was a more efficient way to put Spidermom to bed for the night, and the little bit where the surface keep's wall is breached doesn't seem very relevant because apparently only one of the nobles actually makes it inside--but for the most part everything works pretty well together.

Aesthetically it's probably the roughest thing I've ever seen mouldy release--rougher even than his first (public) map, "Bad Blood", which eventually became a part of NOVA--with an uncharacteristically cuboid look to most of the main play areas, a few naff texture-texture transitions, and a lot of that flood-filled neutral/bright light treatment that I constantly bitch and moan about, but of course all of that's relative to the visual standard of his other work. Strictly speaking the visuals are serviceable enough, and there are a few neat details here and there--I like the combination of gore props/textures near the cyberdemon pens, and also the scale-model of the battlefield that the head arch-vile is feverishly pouring over when you manage to sneak into his enclave (the representation of the Barons as little cubes of meat amused me more than it had any right to).

Quite entertaining, one of the best attempts at doing something interesting with the 'In Name Only' aspect to appear thus far.

[mouldy]

Very interesting appraisal of map19 there DOTW, i was very curious to see what you would make of it.

It is a shame the main area of map20 ended up so plain, unfortunately I had a very specific and unwavering concept in mind for that area which vanilla limits well and truly shat upon.

[Demon of the Well]

Map 21 -- Nirvana
Thank badness this didn't have the BGM I was afraid it was going to.

Also, this is a Cannonball map? It's very off-type for him (although I suppose the main building certainly looks done in his 'brutalist modular home' style), in more ways than one--peaceful, slow-paced, nominally explorative progression style, a map that hangs its hat more on its setting and mood than on its action. Said action is simplistic in the extreme--mostly small numbers of weak monsters that mount feeble frontal attacks, often singly, sometimes in small groups. The berserk pack in the sanctuary at the start encourages one to play this in a pugilistic manner, and that's exactly what I did, not breaking out firearms until the vile duo at the very end. None of this is especially engaging, but I get that it's supposed to be a peaceful/easy breather map (for more reasons than one), and I don't have a problem with that, it's just that in some cases the basic combat doesn't simply feel easy, it feels irrelevant, like the map could just as well accomplish what it's trying to accomplish with even fewer/no monsters in some areas (e.g. the short cave-maze).

Aesthetically I found it to be rather pleasant in a mostly understated sort of way, just as it should be. Texture combos are attractive/time-tested, lighting is mostly tasteful, and the shapes and angles are more lively and natural than in either of Cannonball's earlier maps, even in the manmade (demonmade?) areas--I would hazard a guess that this map was made a fair bit later than the earlier two were. My only gripe is a small one, that being that the sector-boat (and grotesquely oversized sector oar) didn't turn out well at all. But, forgive and forget!

Like 'Gotcha!' before it, 'Nirvana' is another map title that seems to allow the designer a good deal of room for interpretive license, the approach to the name here is fairly straightforward (an island of tranquility) but is simple enough to be effectively communicated without requiring the map to tether itself to any particular gimmicky sector-hack or the like--it's still Doom (the island of tranquility is still in Hell, after all), just with a bit of a travel brochure flavor. Incidentally, while I've not exactly given the matter a lot of serious thought, I'm much more inclined to give this map the benefit of the doubt for possibly having some kind of metaphorical or allegorical slant to its setting (e.g. the house is a place of peace, and perhaps of reflection or even enlightenment, but also of isolation, resignation, even stagnation) than I am the prison from map 16, simply because the map as a whole is a lot more cohesive, not only in its aesthetic but also in the pitch and style of its action. Some folks are given to talking about gameplay (which in Doom consists largely of combat, with a side of exploration, or occasionally the converse) and aesthetic/setting/visual style like they're two entirely separate things, but I don't think this is correct--for good or ill, the two influence one another in many subtle ways, and it's useful for the two to be complementary, especially if a map is attempting to be a high-concept proposition. For example, the action in this map would seem quite paltry and unrewarding in many settings, but in the context of the peaceful retreat (with a sinister undercurrent) depicted here, it makes a lot more sense, and hence the result is some degree of engagement rather than some degree of boredom.

Solid breather map, I would say it's actually Cannoball's best offering in the set, despite being unlike what he usually makes (or usually used to make, anyway) in a number of ways.

[TimeOfDeath]

btw, I did a max of 29 a couple days ago in 15:37. Yeah Antroid, I did like 24 and 29.

[Capellan]

Demon of the Well said:
Map 32 -- Große

Grosse is German for 'large', and close to 'Gross', so yeah it's a layered pun.

The map's definitely not meant to be all that difficult, though. I mean, I did play-test it :)

IIRC (it was a while ago), this was the last map I made mostly in DETH.

[Jaws In Space]

Map 9 - 3/5
Is this The Pit - Absolutly, this is without a doubt a pit. Oh my god this is a pit to end all pits. This is exactly what I wanted to see from a map called the pit, during my short time involved in the development of D2INO I was going to attempt to make a map like this one after I failed at delivering Monster Condo, but I missed out in claiming the slot. I'm so glad that someone made a giant pit map like I would have done.

What did I think of the map - This is my favorite map in the wad since map 3, I still wouldn't say that it's good, but it is above average. My biggest problem with the map is all of the small areas outside of the actual pit, the majority of the fighting in the map takes place in these areas instead of the pit itself. In fact the entire pit area is rather lacking of anything really, with only 4 structures to even enter. On top of that there is only one key for progression in the pit area, while the other 2 are off in the side areas. Even though I love how big the pit is, I find that it tedious to run around in due to it's size, this could have been avoided by having all of the teleporters accessible at the start of the map. It got pretty annoying that once I cleared out a side area the bars would open, but it was pretty useless as the only way to get the bars of the other teleporters open way by walking to each side area to clear them out. Another complaint I have about this map is that it includes Pain Elementals, if ever there were to be a map where Pain Elementas should never ever be used, it would be this map. Now it is pretty easy to just avoid them & their unlimited lost souls in a map this big, but still there was every so often that one time when a lost soul would charge from who the hell knows where & then suddenly I'm dead. Then there is the exit, yeah it could have been just as simple as flipping the direction of the stairs around to make them more visible, but as it was with the direction that seems most logical for progression I often ran past the stairs without even noticing them, not fun at all for a map this big.

So overall I did enjoy this map pretty well besides the things that I complained about above. Also this map most certainly has done the best job of emulating the map name so far in the wad.

[joe-ilya]

MAP09 and MAP07 are the worst maps in this pack.

[Jaws In Space]

Map 10 - 3/5
Is this a Refueling Base - Yeah I see this as a refueling base.

What did I think of the map - This was just another okay map, it had some good things & it had some bad things & it really wasn't all that memorable. Lets start off with the bad, near the start of the map is a room that is pretty much ripped right out of the original Doom 2 map. This room along with the shape of the structures in the main open area seem a bit too heavily inspired by the Doom 2 map to be coincidental. It seems pretty bad to have these rip off rooms in the map when it was clearly stated in the project rules to avoid making direct homages to the original maps. Honestly there doesn't seem to be any reason for that entire area before the teleporter to even exist, except to have that homage room. My second complaint is that this map seems, like a few before, like someones very early attempts at making maps. There is just stuff everywhere that makes you know that it's someones earliest map, the liquids dripping everywhere, bad texture mixing, & not putting a good border between different textures. Some areas are under detailed & ugly to look at, while others are over detailed & ugly to look at. One good & bad thing about the map was how easy it was, normally I would complain about the easiness, the only battle that was any bit difficult was the one where I picked up the red key. But after playing through maps 6, 7, 8, & 9 it really refreshing to play a map this is pretty short & easy.

So overall this map was nice for being short & easy, but it's otherwise pretty forgettable.

Map 11 - 4/5
Is this Circle Of Death - Not really. For the same reasons as the crusher, there are a few circles of death here. Yet once again there is the primary Circle of death right there in the middle of the map.

What did I think of the map - Had I reviewed this map when I first played this wad I probably would have given it a 1, I just absolutely hated it. Though now that I've played it a second time & really got into it I'm actually kind of liking this map. I'm pretty conflicted as to whether it is worthy of a 4 rating or only a 3, it was a tough decision, but every time I was about to say yeah this map is only a 3, the annoying stuff stopped & I started to enjoy myself again. So in reality this would really be a solid 3.5, but I don't do that kind of shit so I give it a 4 out of 5, so yeah, it's our first good map since map 3. Now onto the review, I hate the start of this map I run down the steps only to find the door locked & I'm forced to run through lava. Unlike my first play though I actually found a radsuit right there at the start & actually had a fairly decent time in the lava, still personally I just can't stand damaging floors & I find it to be one of the most annoying things in Doom, so even though I did better this time around I still don't like that start. Luckily this area is relatively short & in no time we teleport back to the start of the map & the door to the main structure is now open. From here on out there is a lot of running around looking for switches & then trying to figure out what those switches did, all while trying to avoid that pesky cyberdemon in the middle of the map. This map has a pretty interconnected layout, a lot of it is blocked off at the start of the map, but once you start hitting some switches you see that some of those closed doors are now open & when you go through them you're like oh it's this area. This map had a really good scene of place, I never really got lost & didn't really have to use the automap very much until the very end. Another think I liked about this map is that it just looks good, several of the past few maps have been obvious works of inexperienced mappers so it was really nice to see some competent architecture & lighting. Finally the gameplay, this map has had some of the very best fights & monster placement of the wad so far, I had to step up my game a bit here after I died a few times, health and ammo balance is also really good & even though most of the map is switch hunting, whenever monsters did show up I found myself just having a good time trying to figure out how best to win each fight. Though he was annoying as hell, I really do appreciate the dynamic that the cyberdemon added to the map & in the end I even let him live as I left the map.

So overall I'm glad I came back to this map after that terrible first run, I don't normally enjoy exploratory switch hunt maps like this one, but like I said every time it was about to get overly annoying I figured out what to do. The real reason to play this map though is for the well placed monster fights & good health & ammo balance.

Map 12 - 4/5
Is this The Factory - Well it's got some moving parts & is more of a factory than the original Doom 2 map.

What did I think of the map - So when I first saw this map I instantly recognized it as a Cannonball map. This is the 6th Cannonball map I've played, prior to this I've only played his 2 Nova maps, 2 Mayhem2048 maps, & an UDINO map. He seems to stick with a very strict set of textures & while overall layouts change up, individual rooms can easily be confused for rooms from other maps. That being said, the map itself is competent enough, with decent visuals & good gameplay I found myself enjoying my short playthrough this map. Other than that I don't really have anything to complain about.

So overall it was fun to play, but was a bit on the abstract side to be included in Doom 2 In Name Only.

Map 13 - 2/5
Is this Downtown - Well everything before the subway section is.

What did I think of the map - Well clearly we have another map by an inexperienced mapper & it reminds me quite a bit of Map 10 in that regard, also it reminds me of several other maps from this wad that have come previously & some that come after it, seems the author took inspiration from several other maps during development. Visuals are fairly decent for the most part, but you still have that ugly texture mixing & dumb micro detailing often done by new mappers. Also the use of Wolfenstien textures is the dead giveaway of inexperience. Gameplay is a bit of a pain in the ass here, there are quite a few bullshitty instant traps that get old after awhile, especially near the start & in the lower cave section. I wish that the map had ended by hopping onto the subway train because by that point I was pretty tired of the map, besides the next map is inmost dens, the subway tunnel would have been a great place to end this map and start the next one.

So overall I don't like this map due to the authors clear inexperience of good map making.

Map 14 - 5/5
Is this The Inmost Dens - Yes, _bruce_ is once again doing his normal mapping thing & that happens to be doing weird underground areas, so it seems to be a good interpretation of the inmost dens.

What did I think of the map - Just like maps 2 & 3, I think this is another well done map by _bruce_, I'd say it's my second favorite of his maps. So here, once again _bruce_ is just doing his standard mapping & it makes for a really good looking & fun to play map. Since this is a much later map in the wad we finally get to see _bruce_ use some tougher monsters so this is probably his most difficult & fun map to play.

So overall this map gets the name right, the design is great & it's a fun map to play.

[Demon of the Well]

Map 22 --The Catacombs
I feel similarly about this map as I do about map 16--it has some interesting visuals/atmosphere to it, but is also uneven in its overall presentation (though nothing here is so dire as the prison segment from map 16, fortunately). In this case it's pretty transparent that different parts of this map arose from different eras in Eris Falling's mapping, with some appearing contemporary in terms of overall build quality with map 02 of the 'Temple of Life' map pair he posted on the forums a little while back, and others looking like they're contemporary with the automap signature from about two years ago (presumably when E.F. was brand-new to mapping). Some few areas also seem caught somewhere in between these two points, leading me to suspect that they are essentially old constructions that were partially remodeled or given a fresh coat of paint as the project was nearing release.

Some areas appear shapelier and evince a generally higher degree of attention to lighting contrasts and things of that nature--generally there's more depth of scene in the righthand piece of the map (so, the area which comprises the quest for the blue skull), especially in comparison to some of the much more flat/boxy simplistic construction on the other side of the map (esp. the starting area) and in some setpieces. Some scenes or visual ideas appear quite appealing to me (the initial view of the pitch-dark hall where the two spiderdemons are encountered), while others appear visually messy (e.g. the the blue + red cross symbols on the back wall of the large chapel, the visual symmetry of which is thrown off by the ugly pink monster closet that appears between them). This characteristic of aesthetic disjointedness is most pronounced in the areas that appear to be old retouched construction, e.g. the pit room where that group of Barons teleports to--in terms of shape it's much improved from Eris' old screenshots of that area, but still seems somewhat unappealing because it's very flatly-lit and has some odd detail choices (techlamps instead of torches in this case? Hm...).

Gameplay is not generally unpalatable but also has its issues. I was surprised at the relatively high monster density the map fields (the only previous maps I've played by E.F. were lightly populated to a fault), and it offers a decent variety of encounter types over its duration, a handful of them fairly clever (e.g. the blur sphere + spiderkids + spidermoms + interlopers setup near the end), and a handful of them fairly effective even if they are straightforward/simple (e.g. the big poison arena fight). At other points, however, there seems to be a certain hesitance in deploying monstes. For instance, this is another D2INO map that features a premade corpses + vile setup (in the hub of the blue key wing), but the scenario is totally neutered by the baffling placement of monster-blocking lines that keep the monsters confined to that small area once they are revived, making them makework rocket fodder. A similar scenario (which seems more like an honest oversight) occurs in the small room at the northeastern extreme, where the big clot of monsters that emerges can't reliably descend the small staircase and thus becomes a big chunk of mostly harmless HP. Apart from this kind of thing, there's also a disheartening propensity towards turret-Barons in the map, and the general supply of ammo, health, and especially powerful artifacts (soulspheres, combat armor, etc.) establishes an overly-generous safety-net that robs most of the encounters of any real menace.

So, yes, good points and bad points. On the whole I'd say the obvious retouching/partial redesign this map underwent places it above many of the earlier maps in the set, and I like some of the ideas at work, but I do see a fair amount of missed potential, as well, again something I attribute to this map being based in some way a piece of someone's very early editing work.

[Jaws In Space]

Map 15 - 2/5
Is this map an Industrial Zone - No, this map is even more abstract than Cannonballs last map & I think it seems less like an industrial zone than the Doom 2 map did.

What did I think of the map - Yep once again we have a fairly standard Cannonball map, except this time around we're in an open city sandbox map. This time around though I didn't enjoy myself as much as I did in map 12. The first half of the map before the Blue/Yellow bridge is where the most enjoyable stuff is, but everything after that should have been left out. Even though the first half was the better half it's not without it's faults, the sniping hitscanners & revenants get old really fast, plus the map is just a little bit to big to be very fun. I will say one good thing about the map is that I'm so freaking happy to finally have the BFG.

So overall this map is overly large, goes on for too long, & doesn't even represent the name of the map.

[Demon of the Well]

Map 23 -- Barrels O' Fun
Fairly straightforward, this, it takes the same basic concept from Sandy Petersen's map 23 and expands on it. Well, sometimes. Sort of. In a manner of speaking. This map is a pile of homages, mainly to the original Barrels O' Fun but also to other things such as Phobos Anomaly and, indirectly, every 90s custom level ever that had a giant sector-scrawled "DOOM" somewhere in it. In that sense, this is again a map that feels very old-fashioned despite some modern detailing/aesthetic tropes. Sometimes this sort of thing can be made to come off as charming (it's one of the things I liked about map 19, for instance); in this case it struck me mostly as tacky.

I've made it no secret that I'm no big fan of IWAD homages, so some of the major scenarios here fell flat for me because I already knew exactly how they were going to go beforehand. Take, for example, the barrel-running gauntlet in the room at the far east of the map: not simply a homage but a proper rip-off of an idea from the original IWAD map, which has been superficially modified but is fundamentally unaltered in concept--the room is larger, there are more barrels and extra monsters, but what is required is the same. The only real change is that now cleaning up afterwards is essentially compulsory (since meat gets in your way in the bottleneck when you find you have to go back and hit a switch in order to lower the teleporter to leave the area)....so, rather than providing an unexpected twist on a familiar idea, what this area does is essentially regurgitate that area and make it worse than the original. Other barrel-based scenarios are less derivative of specific pre-existing maps but repeat too many times over the course of the level (e.g. 'teleport into a box where you're surrounded by barrels and enemies, THINK FAST') to the point where later iterations quickly lose their spark. To its credit, beating the map is not entirely trivial as some scenarios do pile on enough complicating factors that they can't simply be stumbled through with no concentration (the blue blur-sphere room attached to the pointless E1M8 homage, the final spider-yard, etc.), but this isn't enough to compensate for the overarching repetitiveness and lack of truly original content.

Definitely a map that has more real estate than ideas to fill it with.

[Jaws In Space]

Map 16 - 3/5
Is this a Suburbs - No, not even remotely.

What did I think of the map - Ahhh yes I remember this map well, right about the time the Monochrome Mapping Project was finishing up both me & Schwerpunk decided to help out D2INO with a few of their unclaimed maps. I chose to make Monster Condo while he picked Suburbs. During development we both got a bad case of mappers block, while I just decided to give up Schwerpunk was able to at least release something. His portion of the map consisted of nothing but the entire underground prison looking area & one or two buildings above ground. It was universally criticized upon release, but was still included as part of the D2INO Alpha release, where it received even more criticism. Awhile later Joseph Lord came by & expanded greatly upon the exterior location, but left the underground area intact, then he stopped working on the project & the project was left with a very buggy map, eventually Mouldy came by to fix most of the bugs & that's what we are playing here. Personally of the the 2 authors I much prefer Schwerpunks design over Joseph Lords. Both sections of the map are very linear, both have a ton of unopenable doors for no good reason, & both are just really ugly to look at. The only reason that I like the underground section more is because I think that it has slightly better monster battles & it's shorter. A lot of the battles in the upper area are just bullshitty mass attacks, especially that last one before the exit, along with a lot of annoying chingunners. While the lower section has a few of the same issues, it's to a much lesser extent.

So overall neither section of the map is really good & it completely fails at being Suburbs.

Map 17 - 2/5
Is this Tenements - yeah, I can see this area as tenements.

What did I think of the map - Wow, so I've talked about maps looking like newbie maps before, but the first time I played this map I was immediately reminded of the city section of map 13 from Nova: The Birth, it really shocked me to learn that these maps were made by different authors. The map itself is ugly as heck, it's overly bright, has some really bad texturing choices, & has a lot of the ugly my house micro detailing. Gameplay was fairly tame up until the Red Key courtyard when suddenly all hell breaks out for the rest of the map, I stopped enjoying myself around this point & just wanted to leave the map with every new mass release of monsters.

So overall this was once again another map that was doing fine & then just added to much & turned itself bad. At least it's the first map to do a good representation of the map name in awhile.

[HunterZ]

I was going to ask if there was a secrets guide for D2INO, but it took so long for my account to get activated(*) by a moderator that I gave up and installed SLADE to figure things out by looking at the maps.

MAP01 has an obscure secret right off the bat: you have to activate a switch that opens both a visible and secret door for only a few seconds, then run to the secret door and hit a second switch that opens a *second* secret door.

I don't feel bad for not being able to figure it out, as the only youtube video I could find couldn't figure it out either.

MAP04 (I think) has another tough one: a hidden single-use-only switch in the exit room that lowers a platform for just a couple seconds.

(* - somehow I've never made an account here, even though I've been visiting on and off for like 15 years!)

[Tristan]

Demon of the Well said:

Map 22 --The Catacombs
I feel similarly about this map as I do about map 16--it has some interesting visuals/atmosphere to it, but is also uneven in its overall presentation (though nothing here is so dire as the prison segment from map 16, fortunately). In this case it's pretty transparent that different parts of this map arose from different eras in Eris Falling's mapping, with some appearing contemporary in terms of overall build quality with map 02 of the 'Temple of Life' map pair he posted on the forums a little while back, and others looking like they're contemporary with the automap signature from about two years ago (presumably when E.F. was brand-new to mapping). Some few areas also seem caught somewhere in between these two points, leading me to suspect that they are essentially old constructions that were partially remodeled or given a fresh coat of paint as the project was nearing release.

I always felt that you could make pretty accurate guesses of the order in which everything in the map was made, because it was done over such a long time. 15 months I think, and it was that last bit of revamping some areas that I discovered full-brightness-inset-liquidfalls-in-a-dark-room, which is something I did to death in Temple of Life, and will probably continue to do so, because I think it looks pretty cool.

[Jaws In Space]

Map 18 - 4/5
Is this Courtyard - No, once again we have the issue of multiple courtyards & this time there is no definitive courtyard, so this one really fails in adapting the map name.

What did I think of the map - Well honestly I didn't really have any issues with this map. I played it, had fun, & then it was done. Nothing really worth noting about the layout or texturing, it was just fairly standard courtyard looking stuff. Monster density was pretty low so this was a pretty easy map.

So overall it was there I played it & that's it.

Map 19 - 5/5
Is this a Citadel - Yes.

What did I think of the map - This is an exploration map done right. The map starts of with a mostly empty exploratory opening similar to map 6, except here it's done way better with interesting architecture & stuff to pickup. After teleporting away from this area we are thrown into the action as the ground beneath our feet sinks away into lava. After a few more nasty traps we make it to the main hub area of the map where we will often return to during our adventure. That's what this map really is, it's an adventure. I spent 1 hour & 20 minutes playing this map & that doesn't include the times I died without saving in some spots. Yet I would still rather spend several hours in this map than several minutes in some of the earlier map played. The map looks really fantastic, good use of textures & lighting, the only area I though could use some more brightness was the hallways right after you picked up some lite amp goggles. Even for it's size & interconnected layout there is still a pretty good sense of place to the map, I didn't get lost until near the end of the map. After killing the cyberdemon in the yellow key area I had no idea how to get to that yellow key, but after some serious backtracking I eventually got it. Then when everything seemed to be over & all that was left to do was open the exit door I once again got stumped as I had forgotten a blocked off teleporter I had visited way earlier in the map. Though other than these two instances I had no trouble at all navigating the map. Monster placement was very well done, there were a few annoying traps in there, but they were few & far between & considering the number of high tier monsters in this map I never felt to overwhelmed. In the end the only battle I ended up not liking was the very final battle before the exit, it was literally nothing but infighting & circle strafing, after going so strong for the entire level I was sad to see such a lame battle right before the exit. Health & Ammo balance was pretty good as well, even though I'm playing continuous I was often forced to conserve on ammo & probably used each weapon a fairly equal amount of time, it's really rare for a map to make me do that.

So overall Scifista does a complete 180 in quality with this map compared to his map 7 & I highly recommend that everyone give this map a try.

Map 20 - 4/5
Is this Gotcha! - Well no, they didn't get me.

What did I think of the map - Ahh yes, map 20, this is one of the few maps that I played wile D2INO was still in development & if I remember correctly I may have even given it a positive review way back then. This is the first fully created by Mouldy map we come to in the wad according to him this map was inspired by a scene from Starship Troopers where Rico's team is hopelessly surrounded by bugs in the already destroyed outpost. I really like the setup to this map, you start off by taking a few steps forward & then oh shit Barons, so you make a retreat out of the cave & then suddenly OH SHIT BARONS!!!! Lucky for the player the castle door closes them out behind you. There's a short bit of gameplay in the castle itself, but it's mostly just running around the perimeter hitting switches & collecting keys. After the short castle bit, you make your way through a river to the 2nd half of the map. I didn't enjoy this area as much, I though the one gimmick was good enough for the map, but this whole area puts you in several rather uneven fights against the enemy, at least it's over fairly quickly. After grabbing the red key we're back in the castle, but now a wall has been destroyed & the monster are pouring in, I had to quickly make it up the steps to the red key door. Here we are teleported to the war room, were we see a funny looking miniature of the battlefield. Flip a switch in here & you release the cyberdemons that we saw earlier to help you kill all those pesky barons. Then it's just running around in the open flipping 4 switches & avoiding the Revenants & Cacos before you exit the map. So while the gameplay does the job just fine this map is surprisingly bland looking, especially considering some of Mouldy's previous works & even compaired to other maps in this very wad & that's really my only big complaint.

So overall I enjoyed my short run through the map, I just wish that it could have looked a lot better. Also I don't see how this has anything to do with Gotcha!, but I guess it is one of the more difficult names to adapt so I'm not too bothered by it.

Map 21 - 3/5
Is this Nirvana - Yeah sure, that music is pretty relaxing. I think this is supposed to be some sort of temple in the mountains, it works, but it could have been done a little better.

What did I think of the map - So this is a Cannonball map? You sure could have fooled me. I see a few similarities to his other works, but for the most part this one seems fairly unique for him. This is especially so when it comes to the monsters, I kept on expecting that usual mass horde of monsters to appear, but it never did, there was hardly even a threatening monster in the entire map, the only times I took damage was due to my stupidity & complacency with the easiness. In fact the map was really too easy for my liking. Still it's not a bad map, though there is some questionable Doom furniture in some places.

So overall it was a nice quick breather of a map after the previous 2, but was overly simple for my tastes.

Map 22 - 2/5
Is this The Catacombs - Yeah, I see those coffins & skulls all over the map so this is catacombs.

What did I think of the map - Here it is the one map from the project leader in the wad, there could have been more than one, but Eris wisely... or maybe unwisely rejected his own Map 7 from the wad. Actually after a quick ID Games search, this map seems to be his very first map released & I can't think of anything else of his I've played. Well I've got it say it's a hell of a lot better than my first release, but that still doesn't mean it's a good map. Big problems with this map are that it's very linear & has multiple hubspokes. The player goes down each area & then makes their way back by the exact same route, which makes for pretty boring gameply. This map has a ton of skinny hallways everywhere which is simply bad design. I remember Eris kept on delaying the release of the beta because he was essentially redoing the entire map, the entire left hubspoke was gone & replaced by what looked like a cave system, but when it came down to it he realized that it would probably be best to just delete the entire right side hubspoke section as well. Due to college, pressure from others for the beta, & just a lack of interest he instead just gave up on remaking the map & released the original unedited version into the beta. It's too bad because even in the forums Eris was unhappy to release the map in this state.

So overall this map has those telltale signs of someones very first map & as such it is looked back upon with negativity by the map author & I agree, this is a boring map.

Map 23 - 1/5
Is this Barrels of Fun - No, it wasn't fun.

What did I think of the map - This map sucks. From the outside looking at the D2INO thread it did seem that everyone really wanted to make the wad as best as it could possibly be, this is evident in the rejection of all of Joe-Ilya's maps. To me it seemed like Joseph Lord was just as bad as Joe-Ilya & I never got why all of his maps weren't rejected as well. This map has a ton of things wrong with it, from non damaging nukage that later becomes damaging. Some really badly located switches, like the switch that is only indicated to be a switch by a hardly visible arrow on the floor or the hard to spot switch that gives access to the red key. Then there are ripoffs of Iwad maps all over the map, from that E1M8 section to an exact remake of the opening of Barrels Of Fun. When I got to that room the difficulty just exploded & I cheated my way through the rest of the map, all I saw was more shit.

So overall this is a crap map from a crap mapper, moving on.

Map 24 - 0/5
Is this The Chasm - Yes, this is a chasm.

What did I think of the map - I only give out one rating of 0 per wad & it only goes to the map that I enjoyed the least out of all 36. So there you go like E3M5 of Doom, Map 17 of Doom 2, & Map 28 of D2TWID Antroid has made a map I dislike so much that I literally can't bring myself to ever play it again. I wrote a very hateful review of this map awhile back right after my first plythrough when I was pissed off & angry, so I decided to give the map another shot to see if it really was that bad, sadly though I played for about 5 minutes before those bad memories came back & I had to stop. Lets first talk about the good, even though I hate this map there still are some good things in here. Compared to his map 4 this map is way better in terms of a good interconnected layout & lighting, at least as far as the interior sections go. It's the the exteriors where things go wrong. What it comes down to is that this map is just an elongated rehash of the first 1/3rd of map 4, so everything that I hated about that map applies here except 10 fold because this map is way longer & there is no interesting "Focus" part at the end to make the map interesting. This is seriously the worst texture combinations I've ever seen in a map, though I did praise the well connected layout, it was an absolute pain in the ass to navigate the interior structures because everything looked exactly the same. I was forced to use the automap 50% of the time while inside the interior sections because I had no idea where I was. I really don't understand it, we've already seen good texture usage in "The Focus" section of map 4 & I've already played map 29, so I know that Antroid can make a map look decent. So I have to ask what on earth were you thinking with this map? Did no one honestly tell you how bland this map looks? By the time I got to the Cyberdemon fight near the middle of the map I had had it with the map & just IDDQD my way though the rest of the map. It didn't really matter though all I saw was more of the same brown monotone texturing throughout the entire map. I can say that I was very happy that I didn't have to grab both the red & yellow keys to get to the exit. Gameplay was okay I guess, I just really wasn't enjoying myself & didn't really take any notes on that department, though I did find it weird that the entire section before the exit pit was devoid of any monsters.

So overall this map was made to replace an unbelievably bad Joseph Lord map, but in the end it doesn't really matter because all you guys did was replace the worst map in the wad with a new worst map of the wad. Sorry if you don't like my opinion, but I simply can't stand this map.

Map 25 - 1/5
Is this Bloodfalls - yes, there are bloodfalls all over this map.

What did I think of the map - Well once again we have another rather bland map from Mouldy, but this one is bland for different reasons than map 20. This map has the distinction of being a mostly brown map that I played right after I got done raging about how brown map 24 was. Though it's not nearly as bad here, but there are some really poor texture choices, such as using a brown structure texture as a door that blends in pretty well with the massive brown wall around it, like the door to the yellow key room, or the door to the blue key room. Gameplay started off pretty tame, but build gradually throughout the the level, right up until the first cyberdemon room when suddenly the map looses it's shit & tries to do everything it possibly can to keep you from leaving the map. Even before this room I wasn't enjoying myself & these cyberdemons really killed the map for me. It's funny I think that this was another map made to replace a really bad Joseph Lord map, seems this one didn't do the trick for me either.

So overall it's another overly brown map with gameplay that stinks.

Map 26 - 2/5
Is this The Abandon Mines - They are mines, but they don't seem very abandon to me.

What did I think of the map - This is the first map I played from D2INO, I wanted to see what the map right before mine was going to be like, it really hasn't changed at all since then. Even back when I first played it I knew it was bad, it's another really brown map & it's linear as hell. While an_mutt attempted to do something interesting with the name waste tunnels, Olympus just did a mine shaft & shows us why linear maps like this don't work very well. Then there's that freaking exit, all I wanted to do was open the door right behind the exit sign, kill an arch-vile, & then exit the map, but no the map author had to throw in one or two more battles because screw the player that's why. Except for that last few rooms I didn't have any issues with gameplay.

So overall it's another linear brown map with a exit sign that lies to you.

Map 27 - 1/5
Is this a Monster Condo - No, not at all.

What did I think of the map - So here it is the map slot that I originally claimed & then completely failed at making the map. I did make something for this, not sure if I still have it though, if I find it I post it here. The real reason that I gave up though is because of Mouldy's map 28, I played that map & then immediately withdrew my submission because my map was nowhere near the quality level of that map. I hoped that someone with better skill would make the map instead, & then Joseph Lord claimed the slot & made this map. So yeah I gave up my slot because I knew I was making a bad map & then it is instantly claimed by the worst mapper in this project. Anyways I put off playing this map as long as I possibly could because I just knew it was going to be bad & it is, it's really really bad. It's just another crappy map by Joseph Lord just like 23 was & all the same issues apply here.

So overall the texturing is crap, the progression is crap, the monster placement is crap, it goes on for way to long, & it looks nothing like a monster condo.

Map 28 - 3/5

Is this the Spirit World - Sure, heck if I know what the spirit world is supposed to look like.

What did I think of the map - Well this map can be divided into two halves. The good half & the slaughter map half. Here in his 3rd map in the wad we finally get to see Mouldy's really good visual stuff. This map just looks incredible with an overall red theme & all of the monsters silhouetted in black. There is a pretty funny looking sector skeleton near the end of the first half of the map that has a lost soul for a head. So the map starts out easy enough with the only enemies being imps, you walk around a fairly open hellish landscape until you reach the crypt with the sector skeleton, upon hitting a switch in this room the rest of the hell bestiary shows up to kill you, you once again run through the hellish landscape, hitting a few switches along the way until once again you return to the crypt with the skeleton. This time you go behind this room & then descend into the slaughter half of the map. This is where the level ends for me, I simply do not have the patience to even attempt to fight this crowd of monsters.

So overall this map is a bit like map 7 in that it starts off great, but then descends into an unfun slaughterfest. Still I give it one extra point over map 7 just because of how freaking cool it looks.

[Demon of the Well]

HunterZ: I've managed to locate all of the secrets in most of the maps, although there have been a few stumpers I just simply couldn't find, for sure (the last secret from map 04 that you mentioned being one of them).

Map 24 -- The Chasm
Since Antroid expressed an interest in seeing other people play his maps, I recorded a skill 4 FDA of my time with this map. It's long (the map is long-ish), but it has some decent parts. It's not a difficult map (especially not for those who play cautiously), and I'm firmly in control of the situation for most of it, but I do get myself into really bad trouble at one point by playing like a brash fool, and just barely come out alive. My performance in the platforming section is also quite horrid (I'm usually better at that, I swear), from which some small amusement may arise. I do find all of the secrets, at least, although one of them is entirely by accident.

Antroid's interpretation of 'The Chasm' is pretty interesting, I think. The overall setting is a large ravine (not quite vast or deep enough to be truly called a 'chasm', perhaps, but let's not split hairs here) lined with the remnants of some ancient cliffside civilization, including the skeleton of a cave-village and a strangely ominous temple complex in the heart of the chasm. What's it doing in Hell? I don't know, perhaps the answer lies in the temple's forgotten idols, now long-effaced by the breath of eternity....that I'm wondering about that at all suggests that the map was successful in creating a degree of immersion, however, which is good. The map is rather monothematic and very monochromatic (everything's tan and beige but for the poisonous green river), but the commitment to these two design choices is strong enough, and the overall tableau fleshed out enough, that both contribute to the goal of establishing the setting. While I often found myself wishing for some more pronounced light contrasts (what else is new?), for the most part I didn't find this to be too repetitive or aesthetically boring, though the orthogonal stone complex at the very start of the map is perhaps a mite dry.

Given the size and expanse of the terrain, the enemy density is a little bit thin. While a bit slow-paced at times, I didn't find the gameplay to be offensive, for the most part. My two main criticisms are that I don't feel the climax is quite as climactic as I'd like, and I did notice an awful lot of 'entrance fights'--that is, the strongest pockets of opposition tend to be placed in such a way that they make it difficult to enter an area by virtue of being able to concentrate fire on the entryway (so, there's the initial entry into the main gorge with the perched cyberdemon, the entry into the cave village area, the entry into the subterranean temple ruins area beyond the key-bars, etc.); repeating this approach this often in a map this long does tend to stifle the pace somewhat. However, I don't think it's a fatal flaw in this map's case, as several of the main areas are solidly entertaining to fight in if you man up (or 'tard out, in my case) if you take more of a Rambo approach. I've spent a goodly amount of time in several of my writeups about several D2INO maps complaining about "box-rooms connected by corridors"; the reason these are such a gameplay liability in most cases is that they are extremely limited/limiting in terms of the types of playstyle they allow. While the monster mash in Antroid's map here is rather sparse, the areas themselves are varied enough and structurally featured enough to allow the player to take a number of different approaches (indeed, the underlying layout concept appears to be that the majority of the path is loosely bifurcated, allowing at least two angles to take on most challenges at any given time). Not to say that some of these approaches might be more sensible or reliable than others, but there's nothing wrong with that--it's the flexibility that counts.

In the end, I think I appreciate this map in a similar way to how I appreciate a lot of the maps in Vile Flesh. Action is a bit dry at times, but the play space itself is interesting enough a place to be that it mostly compensates, in both practical and abstract ways.

[Demon of the Well]

Map 25 -- Bloodfalls
The original Bloodfalls is one of those weird nostalgic maps for me. If I look at it "objectively" I see a lot of flaws in it, not the least of which being some extremely uninspired combat and a somewhat lazy layout, but even today it still retains a certain hold over me, something I'd tend to attribute to its air of being a somnolent, almost tranquil little corner of Hell, helped along greatly by 'Adrian's Asleep', probably the single most criminally underused track from the original score. Anyway, I guess the reason I mention all this is that I somehow suspect this is going to be a map where it'll be a little more difficult than usual for me to look at it "objectively" (again, mind the scare quotes), since it's going to be tempting to draw parallels/comparisons to the original map in a way I didn't feel compelled to do for most of the other maps, and of course Mouldy's map here is not going to be the beneficiary of nostalgic goodwill.

Weirdly, I think there actually ARE a lot of real parallels between this map and the original Bloodfalls (other than there being some bloodfalls which don't seem prominent enough of a feature to warrant having the map named after them, I mean)--it's more monster-rich, but it has a similarly sleepy atmosphere, some similarly questionable design decisions in the arena of combat, and a strange pseudo-exploratory flavor to its map progression.

Visually, I think this is considerably sharper than map 20 was, although a lot of it is still too flat/bright for my tastes, and it's pretty obvious in places that the vanilla limits are still cramping mouldy's preferred aesthetic style to a significant degree, particularly where the natural terrain (e.g. the bloodfalls) is concerned. There's a fair bit of attractive curvature in the central third of the map or so, however, setting it apart and above the highly cuboid 'Gotcha!' Map progression here is rather quirky: all three skull keys are present, with the blue and yellow being needed to access the final areas. I'm not sure what the red key is actually used for--I picked it up but don't specifically remember using it for anything--but if I had to take a guess I'd surmise that it either unlocks the BFG or actuates the switch that allows one to squish the second cyberdemon. Anyway, all three of these keys are hidden in what could pass as secrets in a lot of maps...none of them are particularly difficult to reach, IMO, but it's still a pretty damned cheeky design decision, seeing as mandatory secrets are one of the stronger taboos at current (although not something that necessarily bothers me personally). Odder still, there's a compact yet quite pronounced sort of nonlinearity at work in the key-hunting segment of the map, with most major areas being accessible from 2-3 different directions, courtesy of many little man-lifts, secret doors, etc. The actual amount of area being covered is rather small, so a lot of this pronounced articulation in the route seems only marginally relevant. It doesn't spoil the map, but it certainly is....eccentric?

Actual combat is mostly straightforward, with its defining characteristic being its lack of memorability. It's mostly direct combat against small-numbers of mid-tier monsters in fairly compact spaces (it's a surprisingly small map), with basic complications from time to time in the form of additional monsters sniping from ledges or whatnot. I've certainly seen worse, but very little of this grabbed my attention, the only parts I remember specifically at this point are the cascade of one-monster closets on the curving marble stairway, and the final areas. The forest of moving pillars near the end stands out in my mind, but more because it's weird and clunky than because it's actually a lot of fun. The forest itself doesn't work very well because mouldy was too kind/gentle/conservative in laying down the triggers that release the various monsters...unless the imps from the ledges wander down the staircase and start tripping triggers themselves, it's pretty hard to get more than one or two monsters to emerge at once. The cyberdemon that eventually shows up is a little bit better--two-shotting him with the BFG is riskier than it would normally be, anyway, given the circumstances--and so probably the map's highlight. I just flat out don't get the final area, though.....a bunch of monsters crammed into a tiny caged artery that are positively devastated by a few rockets, a useless cyberdemon that is promptly crushed to death, an arch-vile (or was it two?) popping out of a tiny closet in the aforementioned artery then immediately proceeding to trap themselves in a fruitless cycle of resurrecting the same imp over and over again, and......then the map suddenly ends with a switch in a dank little bend in the corridor. Weird, man.

Just as predicted, while the quirky design choices at work here do seem to call the original map 25 to my mind (perhaps this was the intention?), without the benefit of nostalgia they don't really compensate for the somewhat flat action, leaving me feeling somewhat underwhelmed by the whole.

Map 26 -- The Abandoned Mines
This is another one that it's difficult for me to say much of substance about. If I had to describe it in one word, I think the word I would choose is 'milquetoast'--it's a map that fails simply because it almost entirely lacks flavor or interest, as opposed to one that fails because it is broken, fundamentally unpresentable, or rife with fun-killing gameplay/progression decisions. What we see here is a textbook example of bland, boxy rooms, with ineffectual squiggly corridors here and there to play up the 'Mines' aspect. You constantly shoot small numbers of monsters that appear directly in front of you, or occasionally in 'traps' so half-hearted it almost seems like the author is afraid of inconveniencing the player. There is a token nod or two to height variation--at one point you take a short drop into a pit, sometimes there are monsters standing on ledges about a head taller than Doomguy, etc.--but for all practical intents and purposes it's almost entirely flat from a battle perspective. Useless fat monsters that are stuck in tight thresholds and have to be pounded through to pass, boss monsters used in very turgid, unpressuring ways (the spiderdemon is particularly poor), a secret that just isn't, a PCorf Baron......it's pretty flaccid stuff, folks.

As a topper, even the treatment of the 'Abandoned Mines' theme is pretty limpwristed. There are cart tracks at one point, and the dirt corridors with occasional wooden support beams here and there are vaguely redolent of a mine in the most rudimentary of ways, but for the most part it's a basic abstract box-slog that appears vaguely subterranean (mostly a function of the dearth of variance in room heights, I suspect) at best. The uninteresting orthogonality that dominates doesn't help the theme, either...this is the kind of generic layout that one could slap different textures on and just as easily call a techbase or a ruins complex or whatnot, not very impressive or immersive.

Filler at best, dead weight at worst. I've played maps by Olympus before (I think he had at least one in Hadephobia, for instance), and while I can't remember all of them in detail, that his name doesn't carry a negative connotation in my head suggests that they were all more interesting in one way or another than this one is.

[mouldy]

The ending of map25 is a false finale, its simply there to give a hint of where all the blood from the blood falls is coming from, ie a machine that is crushing monsters. The monsters behind the bars are lined up waiting to be crushed, and the whole scenario is entirely ornamental. I'm wondering if anyone actually grasped that though, seems like it was a bit obscure maybe.

[scifista42]

Jaws In Space said:

Map 19 - 5/5
So overall Scifista does a complete 180 in quality with this map compared to his map 7 & I highly recommend that everyone give this map a try.

Thanks a lot. Ironically, I've made MAP19 before MAP07. About a year before, actually. In both map's cases, I've had an idea and wanted to implement it. But it apparently turned out controversial at least, and with MAP07 specially bad. I've read this thread, and I agree with the expressed criticism of both maps, I can see the flaws. But I probably think a different way when making a map, than when playing a map, so that I can hardly help myself to actually map well. Yeah, it sucks. I'm glad I have maps featured in the project, on the other hand I wish I could have done better, to satisfy more players. I'll keep trying in the future. Thanks everyone for their views of my maps.