The DWmegawad Club plays: Back to Saturn X E2

[NuMetalManiak]

MAP09 Adverse Wind

A somewhat short affair, which delves into mostly trap based stuff it seems. There's a spiderdemon that can be killed when you first see him or later, and a few wandering zombies. The key trap was cool. But a big monster or a group of monsters like a hellknight near the beginning or the group of imps near the end appearing then teleporting directly behind me, automatic NO from me. Alright level otherwise.

[Dragonsbrethren]

(We are supposed to be ahead a day because of the intermission hub, right? I'll spoiler this just incase.)

Spoiler

MAP09

THE MASTERMIND EXPLODES INTO REVENANTS!!!

With that out of the way, I enjoyed this one. Might be my favorite so far, this is really my style: Short map, simple layout, nice encounters and well balanced ammo progression. Makes a Mastermind work, which is always impressive to me. First map in the wad I've maxed.

Switched over to playing with GZDoom in strict mode, hopefully there aren't any rendering issues. The BTSX colormap is nice but these beautiful maps deserve to be played high res in true color.

[Demonologist]

@ Seele00TextOnly: Excuse me? I don't even know how to react to your posts, so I'll just pass them by.

MAP09 - "Adverse Wind" by DeathevokatioN/Esselfortium
Now that's the kind of pace I've been eagerly awaiting for since the very beginning. Deathevo's name tied to this map sounded promising, and I gladly admit that my expectations are met in the most pleasing way. This map is still quite short and linear, but, on the other hand, it doesn't overstay its welcome. Constant ambushes that are mild yet effective enough to keep the thing going, some more upbeat moments of pure fun, and lots of opportunities for aggressive play. The looks aren't very memorable I guess, but they just work, since the gameplay is clearly the primary focus of this map. Quite a relief after its predecessor's sleep-inducing "action", and a very welcome one. Great work!

[Worm]

MAP09 - "Adverse Wind": Small and simple. Old-school style. Ending is a little abrupt/weak, high point is probably the RL area. I like how scanty the cover is on that small fence, makes me want to fight more arachnos in a larger area with similar structures.

[Veinen]

FDAs for 08 and 09, recorded with b1 once again.

Map08: A Blue Shadow

Well, I didn't think this was too bad. Lacks teeth a bit yeah; I pretty much dominated this map from start to finish which means that it really must be a little too easy. For once I made the right decisions and managed to stumble upon the SSG very soon which surely helped my cause. Nevertheless, I can't imagine it being much harder without the SSG since most of the combat is shooting stuff in front of you and some mild crossfire here and there. I played with the first beta that had the broken finale but by the looks of it and what others have said, it doesn't really make much of a difference concerning the overall difficulty of this map. So yeah, not much can be said about this; decent and inoffensive but hardly memorable due to the total lack of challenge.

Map09: Adverse Wind

This map, on the other hand, is pretty nice. Really short and over in about five to ten minutes and quite frankly it's not a very hard map either. The traps are pretty light but slightly more interesting that in 08. The Spider Mommy Revenant explosion was admittedly rather amusing even though the SM herself didn't feel like a very threatening enemy in that spot. Short and sweet? Yeah, I guess that sums it up. Could've been a little longer and a little tougher since that's two easy maps in a row now.

[darkreaver]

map09: I like this one. It's a bit nostalgic actually as it's an old RoD outtake. It's a little too easy though. The spectres that tele in when you grab the SSG should come in from behind while some stronger opposition attacks from the front. Also, when you kill the SM an archvile should tele in on the other side of the bridge, or together with the revenants at least. You have (or at least should) have alot of firepower by then, so.... Also the ending parts could use a little tougher fights.

[Magnusblitz]

MAP08: A Blue Shadow
96% kills, 4/5 secrets

Another level that consists of two fairly discrete sections, the first being some open areas connected with rocky tunnels and a quest for collecting the three keys, and the other being the titular blue area. Looks really nice, but gameplay is really easy, especially at the start - enemies are always in front of the player, and the tunnels provide easy choke points to handle the monsters. Even if the player decides to drop into the open areas and blast away with the RL, there's plenty of room to dodge. The second section is a bit better in this regard, as the AVs help liven things up. The last area could've been a good fight, but IMO it allows the player to retreat too far to safety. I know there's been discussions about how 'not every area can have bars to stop retreating', and I think that's fair, but this last area really could use some. Secrets are pretty easy as well.

My other complaint is that there's a lot of red/yellow/blue details and highlight textures used in areas that have no connection to the keys - and sometimes the same exact textures are used for places that ARE connected to the keys (such as the red bars that won't open until the red switch is flipped) - can get confusing.

Overall, a decent breather map that's fun to look at and relaxing gameplay-wise. 3/5

MAP09: Adverse Wind
100% kills, 2/2 secrets

In opposition to last map, this one has tons of ambushes and monsters teleporting in behind the player. Used too consistently, this can actually get tiresome, but the map is pretty short, so it works well. As others have mentioned, some of the ambushes are actually a bit toothless (the spectre near the SSG is little more than a wall that protects the player from the hitscanners). I found the Spider Mastermind fight disappointing at first, since it's so easy to abuse the corner with the plasma gun and blow his legs off, but the exploding spider-pinata of revenants and chaingunners was a nice surprise. Looks-wise, starting to get a bit 'generic-feeling' since it uses a lot of the same ideas as last maps, but I really like the color palette and textures used (more so than E1, which all turned into a brown metal blah).

4/5

[40oz]

MAP06

I dunno about this one. The useless inventions must have been the doors that don't do anything, the dead end hallways, and secret partial invisibilities. The fight at the exit was kinda sloppily done. The mapper knew he needed something to signify the end, but the arena certainly wasn't designed for it. It's a map alright, and it's filler at best. The urban setting with crate warehouses is the least vibrant idea you could come up with in this particular mapset, given the new hell/gothic/mayan texture themes here. The name vader being credited for this map gets your hopes up, but it smells like the enthusiasm wasn't there. Like he was egged on to finish it. Next.

MAP07

Thank god, a TGH map! Although I do find TGH's maps to be a bit formulaic at times, it does happen to be a formula I very much enjoy. Maps like Year 21, Year 22, etc almost always start with a berserk and a shotgun in the start with lots of shells and gratuitous numbers of imps and cacos, with some simple platform-obstacle courses. This map is no exception. Besides a new skin of textures, there's isn't much seperating this from any of his previous releases. But I've always enjoyed his work so I don't really have any complaints otherwise. I think it might have helped if some of the floor textures were a different color than the wall textures (for the platforming bits) as the textures don't have a lot of definition to them. It's tough, without stopping to make an observation between each jump, to gauge where the floor is that you're expected to jump to. In general I had a lot of fun though. I died a few times but this is the first map yet that I didn't mind replaying multiple times.

MAP08

Too much of the same gameplay that made most of the other maps boring. Monsters filling up areas with minimal strategic placement, very little ammo, no super shotgun until you trudge through 75% of the map with shotgun/chaingun against mid to high tier monsters, etc. How do you test these maps? Run them in wadwhat and call it a night? I really wanted to stick it out but I'm gonna have to call it quits here. Too many vegetables. Sorry.

[Vader]

40oz said:
The name vader being credited for this map gets your hopes up, but it smells like the enthusiasm wasn't there. Like he was egged on to finish it. Next.

Well, you're wrong!
In fact the map has been finished quite a long time before the first E1 beta was released to the public. I'm well aware (already when making the map), that the cratemaze theme is kind of controversial and would generate a lot of varied feedback and I won't deny that the map could be improved for the next beta in some areas.
I'm perfectly fine with that, but stupid assumptions like yours just make me sad.

[mouldy]

MAP09 - "Adverse Wind" by DeathevokatioN/Esselfortium

Really gorgeous map, felt like quite an abrupt ending though. I think because of the way it was structured and populated I expected it to go on longer. It was set up as a linear journey with isolated encounters along the way, most of which were fairly low-key and aside from some cheeky teleport traps most of the enemies seemed to be positioned like they were just going about their daily business rather than waiting to attack you, so I figured this map was more about leading you on an interesting journey. The surprise mastermind half way was a little toothless thanks to a secret invisibility I found, and playing cautiously meant that he was dead before I even got a rocket launcher, so as the map continued with a few more small pockets of monsters in corridors I was expecting it to build to a finale of some sort. But round the corner there was the exit. Ah well, its a very nice looking map.

[Phml]

@ Seele00TextOnly: Excuse me? I don't even know how to react to your posts, so I'll just pass them by.

To me he's got a point, but that may be because I used the same logic verbatim to defend my own maps in the past. ;) You give a wide range of options, and you trust players to choose what's most enjoyable for themselves.

From the other side of the fence, you can argue too much freedom is gutless design and ultimately robs gamers of a refined experience, partly because balance is necessarily more loose and partly because the player hasn't the necessary knowledge to make an informed choice.

This topic is discussed at length on the Internet, as more and more AAA games embrace customisable difficulties and the like. Lots of interesting stuff to read in various places. IMHO, both approaches have their pros and cons and are equally as valid.

Ultimately, like dew says I feel you want to give some leeway while also making an effort to highlight more interesting routes through game incentives. But it's not *the* answer, just one answer.

Some people will prefer carefully orchestrated fights because they feel anything less structured would jeopardize the entire thing to the point there's no point. Some other people might like ridiculously easy shortcuts and solutions, because they don't care as much about the game throwing a challenge at them but rather play their own way, sometimes limiting themselves and creating their own challenges.

Everyone falls somewhere different on the spectrum. As a designer you can't hope to please everyone no matter how niche your audience, but as a gamer you can understand and adapt to those different styles (and shun those you dislike, if nothing else; saves your time).

[punnyone]

Map 9 - Adverse Wind - 100% Kills/Secrets, HMP Skill.

One this I like most about the BTSX trilogy is the varied map sizes. Already we've had a few larger maps (1,4) and some medium ones (6,8). Now we get what is possibly the smallest map in the set so far, almost deathmatch sized. Looks can be deceiving though, and there are some pleasant surprises to be found amongst the windy adversity.

Design-wise, this level looks to be an ancient gothic prison, complete with overgrowth, (I do love those vine textures!) The music track I'd even go as far as to rank close to the top, in terms of what I've heard so far. It's got a mysterious and medieval feel to it.

Combat-wise, there are some tense encounters, nothing too tough, but a bit more gritty than map 8. Few things are more alarming in Doom than alerting a mastermind the minute you first fire off a shot. The "Exploding into Revenants" death was highly impressive and caught me by surprise.

Overall - Short, sweet, and fun. That's the basics I got out of this map. To me, it is the calm before the Esselstorm that is Map 10! (More on that tomorrow).

P.S, is this screenshot an early version of Adverse Wind, or is another DeathevokatioN map that has yet to be released - http://i.imgur.com/tlJgF.jpg

[esselfortium]

pizzabob18 said:

P.S, is this screenshot an early version of Adverse Wind, or is another DeathevokatioN map that has yet to be released - http://i.imgur.com/tlJgF.jpg

That's a yet-unreleased map by Deathevo and Skillsaw. It was originally built for E2, but will instead be appearing in (I think?) RoD. It's a way cool map, so hopefully it'll come out sooner rather than later.

[Velvetic]

MAP09 - "Adverse Wind" by DeathevokatioN/Esselfortium

A pretty small map, it's very compact with a lot of tough battles coming and going and for the first time, i didn't ran away from the arch-vile. The spider mastermind at the middle of the map was pretty unfair for me and that indicates me what i previously thought, this is going to be a challenge...

[Demon of the Well]

Map 09 -- Adverse Wind - 101% Kills / 100% Secrets - FDA, 0 deaths. Uses beta 2.
Right, I've seen enough Esselmaps by this point to have begun to know what to expect from them (or so I thought until map 10, anyway...), but DeathevokatioN is not a mapper I'm very familiar with, perhaps because his major releases seem to be Heretic maps (Heretic being a game I only feel like playing once in a blue moon). A lot of what I see here doesn't quite strike me as Essel-type, so I'll hazard a guess that the base of thing is DeathevokatioN's. It's a very compact and rather gloomy map that has a darker, bleaker look to it than most of the previous maps, mostly achieved through use of lighting and shadows since it doesn't actually introduce any obviously new assets or general themes (although the ubiquitous water of previous zones has been very noticeably replaced with blood). It's a very vertical layout. Each major progression milestone is marked by a change of height level to host the action, and it seems to underscore this by emphasizing the sky a lot--lots of ornate overhead lattices and beams, trees and bits of diorama detail silhouetted against it, etc.--a tack which, in combination with the map's name, led me to improvisationally interpret it as an ancient observatory or weather station (albeit one that became a Hell-nest at some point, of course).

As aforesaid, it's a very concise map, and the action here is mostly fairly light/straightforward, and I don't actually have much to say about it this time. The general theme to the encounters seems to be use of a lot of smallscale boobytraps; a lot of these seem tuned to hurt a player who panics or tries to flee from them (e.g. arch-vile reveal, the blue key ambush, the ninjatei-master knights at the beginning and end), but generally aren't too rough if you keep your cool. I imagine the encounter that most players will most remember is the eccentric spider mastermind's plot to troll one from beyond the grave by uncorking a bottle of skeletons and chaingunners as soon as it dies; it's an entertaining idea (participants in previous DWMC threads may remember my approval of the same thing done in one of the earlier maps of Epic II), but I feel like it's softballed a bit too much in its current form. For more comedic shock value, I'd actually advocate for having a cyberdemon appear as soon as the spider is dead, but putting a couple of arch-viles in with the current monster group should do just fine, as well. Others have observed that this is another map that climaxes before it actually ends, and while that's very true, it doesn't seem to really bother me much in this case for whatever reason, probably because the map is so short anyway, and because I can't really think of anything practical/functional to use in the upper exit hills that'd fit better than what's already there.

A humble map, not trying to be the face of the WAD, and a little short/light for my taste, but solid enough.

[esselfortium]

Demon of the Well said:

Right, I've seen enough Esselmaps by this point to have begun to know what to expect from them (or so I thought until map 10, anyway...)

Now you've got me curious :P

A lot of what I see here doesn't quite strike me as Essel-type, so I'll hazard a guess that the base of thing is DeathevokatioN's.

Adverse Wind was originally a stock-Doom2-textured limit-removing map that DeathevokatioN posted on the BTSX forum. He wasn't planning on doing anything with it and considered it a throwaway early effort, and we liked the layout enough to encourage him to turn it into a BTSX map. Its BTSX incarnation originally featured a METL* tech theme with some gothicky bits here and there, and some overflow issues born from its limit-removing origins. I, uh, took some creative liberties.

[Demon of the Well]

Ah, yeah, the original BTSX incarnation looks like it was decisively E1 in theme, significantly less macabre both in texture theme and in lighting scheme. From those shots, monster placement looks really similar to what's in the current version, though.

[Cynical]

The talk about map 09 made me curious, and I gave it a quick shot.

Hmm... not bad. It could definitely use more teeth; I'm not a good enough player that I should be UV-maxing anything labelled "E2" on my first attempt, but that's exactly what happened here. I've read that the target difficulty was "like Alien Vendetta E2", but even here, this wad is miles away from the likes of Suicidal Tendencies, Overwhelming Odds, Nukefall, or even Lake Poison. At the very least, that Soulsphere secret could be downgraded to a green armor or something.

Still, in spite of this, combat feels meaningful; like the monsters were put there for a purpose other than being "so many speedbumps". I also dig the Scythe-like tight layout; flows well and leads to tight pacing. I do slightly disapprove of non-poisonous blood, but eh, whatever.

It occurs to me that, thanks to the blur sphere, a determined player could probably skip the map's climax by not killing the Mastermind (EDIT: Just tried it, yep, it works). Probably not worth removing it, though, since it lets you play a bit more aggro while killing him.

[Demonologist]

@ Phml: In this case, I agree with j4rio. You may have some fun even with boring turd if you know the deal and purposedly play the thing like mad, but it doesn't mean that the map in question stops being boring turd. I'd prefer a map that's fun by default instead, no matter how you handle it. [Special note for those accusing me of "doing it wrong": a map with chokepoints and camping possibilities CAN be fun.]

@ darkreaver: Forgot to say that after Deatheavo, YOUR map would make this megawad an instant win right away, but eh... dreams, sweet dreams...
Nevermind, just give us Revelations of Doom already, you two.

@ Cynical: I think it was "AV e1/e2", no? In this case, it fits.

[Salt-Man Z]

MAP05: Tower in the Fountain of Sparks
Gorgeous landscaping. I'll admit I actually got lost once or twice. Like others, I wouldn't mind seeing this get another release with monsters included. If you're in the western caves, and look down through the waterfall openings, there's a big old HOM where the underside of the exit 3D bridge should be.

MAP06: Useless Inventions
I dunno, I liked this one. Never has a pile of crates looked so gorgeous. The transition from crates to urban streets was unexpected, and fun. Trying to puzzle out the second half of the level was a little obnoxious, but I managed. The red door secret was crazy: I eventually managed to find the key, but had to IDDT to even see where the red door was. Once I knew where the final secret area was, I still spent some time poking around before I could find the switch. The final battle didn't give me any trouble on HMP. Good times.

MAP07: Shrine to the Dynamic Years
Kind of a slaughter-lite map, here. I should mention I pistol-started this one on account of switching over to the second beta. That made things hectic right off the bat, but fun. I enjoyed the setpiece-y nature; the platforming section in particular was quite fun. The final battle was a surprise. I discovered (through numerous saves and reloads) that the revenants would chase me around the hill, but if I hit the switch early enough (it raised the stairs, right?) the revvies would climb the hill instead and fight the cacos. I almost despaired at having to pick off two archies out of that mess, but still managed it. Never did managed to get the final secret (the door at the player start, I assume?)

MAP08: A Blue Shadow
Absolutely gorgeous. Reminded me of the level from E1, was it Tough Skin River? I'll agree with complaints upthread that it was often difficult to tell what was a door and what was mere decoration. Also, the switches are super easy to miss here. Especially the little diamond ones: I had two of them almost rendered invisible by scorch marks. The blue temple at the end looked great, but I was quite disappointed that there (apparently?) was no way back to the previous portions of the map.

[kmxexii]

MAP09 ADVERSE WIND BLOWIN THROUGH THE BUTTONS OF OUR COATS

this is a cool fusion of tech metal and brick that has the feel of a derelict base, reclaimed by the wilderness plus a hundred or so demons. adverse wind has a very cool layout where the main showcase is going on in the upper tier of play with that spiderdemon, who kind of has things on lockdown so youre not compelled to linger. of course there is plenty of cover if you clear it out and when its time to do it killin the darn thing is a breeze, especially if you grab that plasma rifle before doing so (which may be tricky with those window snipers and its guardian), but slaying the beast ushers in a wave of monsters that could be pretty threatening. of course there is nothing stopping you from jumping to the lower level or just walking back across the bridge (if youre already standing there) which is i suppose the only real issue with using its swollen body as something of a trap trigger.

clearing to the upper tier is kind of tricky since there are bad things all around that upper lining but if you take a bit of care the only other threatening experience is the eastern area, a cool little base annex tahts thick with zombies and - when you trip the trap - some nastier creatures in a potentially congested nightmare. it feels a little light compared to the rough treatment some of the previous levels gave me. the finale has a cool effect with the mancubus rising out of the blood but his compadres arent very threatening with that full loadout of plasma given for the spider. plus the monsters from the spiderdemon kill are pretty easily dealt with. i guess what im saying is, hurt me plenty, dudes (though i am aware that this could work as a nice breather level in between the rough shit)

its a bit of a different aesthetic and thats appreciated. i like the architecture, particularly in the southeastern base bit and all the other stuff that's visible from the upper tier, whether its the spider platform or the outdoor area.

rating: it blows

[Steve D]

Map09 – Adverse Wind by DeathevokatioN/esselfortium – Kills – 100, Items – 100, Secret – 100. End Health – 134, Armor – 0. Death Count – 3. Shells – 20, Bullets 43, Rockets – 14, Cells - 146

UV pistol-start, GZDoom, frequent saves, keyboard-only

Okay, IMO, this map is perfect. Stewboy's 95 is the perfect BGM for this perfect map. I disagree with anyone who thinks the visuals are in any way lacking, because IMO, the architecture and detailing and thoughtful little touches are all top-notch, and I prefer the mix of tech and goth to pure goth. I especially loved the skylight over the Rocket Launcher area because I'd been thinking of something like that for one of my Amiga Demo Party maps, and it was nice to see proof that it really will look totally cool. You'll just have to trust me that I thought of this independently, though I'm sure others have done this, too, to some extent. Keep in mind that I've missed the vast majority of maps released between 2000 and 2011. ;)

All my deaths occurred right at the start thanks to getting raked by Chaingunners. I had to fight the first Chaingunner/HK trap several times because even a brief burst by one of those jagoffs dropped me to 20% or less, given that I was already quite wounded. I was thus very happy that after grabbing the SSG, the teleporting Spectre served as a meat shield against hitscanners, as Magnus noted. The following battle against Cacos was a bit weak, though it was livened by Losties, who are such a PITA that they make any battle better. The next fight was Rambo time against the courtyard baddies in order to reach the desperately-needed shellbox. I like that I could actually see it, since that encouraged me to go and fight for it.

Clearing the courtyard led to a, as Cynical might say, “speedbump” battle against all those Imps up above. After some experimental lift-riding, I chose to pick them off from below, which left me susceptible to an annoying Revvie on the Spider Mastermind side. It served as a nice moment of relaxation after the fast pace up to that point, I just needed to keep an eye out for homing rockets.

Then came the highlight battle at the RL trap. This was not a toothless trap in my book, and it was pure luck that I happened to see the Zerk, which I Mach-5ed my way over to, because my health was like 40%, so surviving a Revvie and an Archie was unlikely given my level of “skill.” :D But survive I did, though I had to kill a shit-ton of Chaingunners that the Archie kept rezzing between us before I finally dropped his ugly ass. There followed a tense battle against teleporting Arachnotrons -- talk about a surprise! -- where I was shitting bricks even though I never took a hit.

Others have noted that the SM is easy to kill, and quite possibly it's not meant to be a major battle. It was trivial to spark an infight between Spidey and the Baron, and then go grab the PG and flee the Revvies, then ride the lift back up, kill the Revvies, charge across the bridge and corner-abuse the SM to death. I can't imagine that the ease of this battle was lost on the testers, so I'm left to assume that the “pinata explosion” of Revvies and Chaingunners – how did they pull that off? – was the object of the exercise. That was not a tough battle, either, just a matter, for me, of dropping to the courtyard to rocket them from below, but like many of these traps, the fun comes because you have to move your ass in a hurry or die. The final two traps are similar – the Manc/Imp trap and the reprise of the Chaingunner/HK dick-trap from earlier. In both cases, the panic from the sudden appearance of baddies right next to you, the jump-scare, as it were, is what made it enjoyable for me. I played the Chaingunner/HK trap twice, second time with my PG unholstered, just to exit the map with better numbers. ;)

So in this map I used Rambo and wussy tactics as I saw fit. It shows that being placed in imminent death is not the only way to entertain at least some of us players. It was really more a matter of pace; the pace was very entertaining to me, and I loved the small size, and of course, getting, as cannonball would say, the “make the map fun gun” early. The SSG, natch. No real ammo stress in this map, thankfully.

I wouldn't change a thing in this map, and if it's too easy for some on UV, I'm guessing -solonet is an option?

BTW, I was happy that the blood is not a damaging floor.

[Cynical]

Since we're doing these a day early with the filler-map, and since other people's words got me curious...

Map 10:

Ugh, why does the BtSX crew insist on making 30 minute maps when they have about 10-15 minutes worth of ideas?!?!

Somewhere in this map is a really great 15 minute map. As it stands, it's almost intolerable. For every interesting fight (which literally is just those involving Arch-Viles -- and not even all of those, the one at the start and the two after you grab the blue key are both just time-wasters), there's several minutes of "plink at high-tier enemies with a single-barrel" or "grind down Revs, HKs, and Cacos one-at-a-time with the SSG" or "Punch out Pinkies that come at you one at a time". DNF because I quit when I saw the stupid jumping "puzzle" with the pillars -- even if you like Doom platforming, making me wait several minutes between each attempt at a sequence of awkward jumps is inexcusable.

Edit: @SteveD, the requirements of coop settings are entirely different than the requirements of a harder difficulty level. The idea of "play with coop things if you want it to be harder!" is kinda ridiculous on its face for that reason, and it doesn't say flattering things about a wad IMO if such a suggestion is made seriously, since it's basically the same as saying "our combat design amounts to little more than throwing some bodies around for the sake of being bodies!".

[dew]

Cynical said:

DNF because I quit when I saw the stupid jumping "puzzle" with the pillars -- even if you like Doom platforming, making me wait several minutes between each attempt at a sequence of awkward jumps is inexcusable.

Several minutes? I just went and tested. With the worst timing possible, you'll spend roughly 30 seconds on a failed atempt. What were you even doing?

@SteveD, the requirements of coop settings are entirely different than the requirements of a harder difficulty level. The idea of "play with coop things if you want it to be harder!" is kinda ridiculous on its face for that reason, and it doesn't say flattering things about a wad IMO if such a suggestion is made seriously, since it's basically the same as saying "our combat design amounts to little more than throwing some bodies around for the sake of being bodies!".

What the...? That only happens in your head, buddy. How did you even manage to get a contrarian opinion on this? We've been promoting solonet as a UV+ difficulty for good players since the beginning. BtSX isn't supposed to be a SoD-style torment, but we still wanted to give good players a chance for more challenge. Coop placement is usually "dump extra stuff wherever it fits" (pl2, heh), but we at least made the effort to test if it plays alright in solo. I'm sorry we keep finding these new ways to offend you. No, I'm not, haha. Fuck, you're annoying.

EDIT: Before someone makes me eat my own words, E2 solonet is sadly a lot less tested and refined than E1's at this point. My bad, I wasted too much pre-release time on map31.

[esselfortium]

Cynical said:

For every interesting fight (which literally is just those involving Arch-Viles -- and not even all of those, the one at the start and the two after you grab the blue key are both just time-wasters), there's several minutes of "plink at high-tier enemies with a single-barrel" or "grind down Revs, HKs, and Cacos one-at-a-time with the SSG" or "Punch out Pinkies that come at you one at a time".

You get the plasma rifle in the very first fight, and the SSG is visible and accessible early on in the next area. There is no reason to ever be punching out monsters or using the single shotgun against high-tier enemies in this map.

DNF because I quit when I saw the stupid jumping "puzzle" with the pillars -- even if you like Doom platforming, making me wait several minutes between each attempt at a sequence of awkward jumps is inexcusable.

Does this mean you'll be leaving, or are you just being a tease? 10 maps in, if you've found everything in this wad as thoroughly awful as you say, I can't imagine why you're still dragging yourself through it.

[scifista42]

MAP08 - "A Blue Shadow" by Matt Tropiano/Tarnsman

Matt Tropiano surely knows very well how to shape a map to look nice, unified and varied at the same time, and also pleasant to navigate through and play. Obviously the SSG is supposed to be the primary weapon here, given all the shell pickups everywhere - I can see it this way, as I play continuously. I admit that pistol starters need to find the SSG in the first place, but it shouldn't be difficult. Nice compact layout. I liked the atmosphere, blue-ish theme, usage of darkness and music. The demon face textures look pretty good. Particular fights were relatively managable even for a keyboard player like me, I've enjoyed the difficulty. I couldn't avoid death anyway, failing in the revenant pit and several other moments, but at other times I was able to win even the more hectic situations. I simply have to enjoy this megawad, all the effort put into it shows and works great.

[Velvetic]

MAP10 - "Eureka Signs" by Esselfortium

God damn it! Can someone please tell me, is Esselfortium sadistic? 400 monsters, and i did manage to kill them all, but it was much harder than i expected. God bless who is playing on UV. Now, lets talk about the map for a sec. It is a huge and very detailed hostile environment that suits the type of map I like, and its not very confusing (although it took me almost half an hour to find the exit and i saved a lot of times). "Eureka Signs" is the pure essence of what makes BTSX what it is.

[mouldy]

MAP10 - "Eureka Signs" by Esselfortium

A long one, 45 minutes it took me, I think this is the adventure I was expecting the previous map to be. Linear but snaking round on itself with the familiar locked door crossroads, this was a very engrossing map. The fights took quite a while to kill me, thats not to say they aren't tricky, but they are very survivable if you are fast on your feet and make good use of the cover and the inventive layouts (which allow for plenty of escaping and fighting from different angles). The deadliest point for me was the trap that released a load of cacos behind you, I heard it trigger and immediately ran back thinking I had opened a secret door, only to be surrounded by the red bastards. Really enjoyed the unpredictable meandering of the route and the slow build up (helped by the music).

My one problem with this map is the platforming bit, and I will probably say this for any platforming bit in any map ever, but this one was particularly annoying for me, and I ended up noclipping past it which is a shame. The problem was not so much that it was a pain in the arse (though it was) but I could see that the time it would take me to do it was totally destroying the action of the map which had built steadily up to that point, and was now completely stopped while I had to perform the doom equivalent of reversing a lorry round a corner. Other than that its a great map though, very atmospheric and creative.

[Demonologist]

Ah, I got confused with dates & map numbers correlation, skipping or not skipping maps... Anyway, since everyone posts ahead of schedule - here it comes.

MAP10 - "Eureka Signs" by Esselfortium
To start off on a right note:

Cynical said:

Somewhere in this map is a really great 15 minute map

This pretty much sums up my attitude. However, I'll be less cathegorical and try to elaborate. The very first ambush felt kinda irritating to me, but I'd still prefer it to vast majority of gameplay situations happening on this map, on the whole. Same goes for pretty dickish ending.
While I can't really blame the author for poor weapon distribution - this map has some notable pacing issues. The fact I admit right away: there are some cool encounters, that make effective and interesting enough usage of monsters, surroundings and - sometimes - environmental threat. Ironically, they utilize lower monster counts, as this map is relatively heavily populated, overall. And the other side of the stick - there is quite a number of encounters when monsters attack en masse, yet they can't do it effectively, thanks to escape routes remaining open, lots of space given to the player (this factor neglects monster threat in 90% of cases unless they swarm over this space or are placed in a way that they could snipe and bombard the player all the time) and superior firepower on player's part that pretty much turns everything into slaughter of children. This could work more effectively with a shorter map, BUT - this map is anything but short. And when you face it time after time after time during the course of a long odyssey - it becomes less and less inspiring with each iteration. The number of hectic encounters described beforehand is still [understandably?] low, so the latter tooks the major part of playtime. Very... questionable solution I'd say, and it hurts the fun factor real bad.
What I can't take away from this map, however, is its brilliant appearance. It ties several themes into one large behemoth organically, with both each theme executed professionally and transitions becoming pretty much seamless. So great work on that, many memorable locations and very nice looks in general.
Platforming puzzle was annoying indeed, though I can't really say that it got me frustrated or ruined the whole thing for me.

So overall - very nice-looking and thematically consistent map, but it suffers alot from the gameplay standpoint, as the general scheme becomes repetitive very quickly, when the journey is far from over. It definitely didn't do it for me, though I can't dismiss it completely because, as I said earlier, there are moments that I like. They can hardly redeem everything, but they're there. So uh, an okay map?..

[j4rio]

I liked 9 and 10. I don't think 10 really suffers from gameplay standpoint, as I've enjoyed it overall. Maybe some encounters that tried to be difficult could have been more elaborate than just archviles thrown into face.