The DWmegawad Club plays: Back to Saturn X E2

[Magnusblitz]

Salt-Man Z said:

It looks like it reads: "broken cities swollen with the crawl of evil lur." I assume that last word is supposed to be "lurk"?

Displays "lurk" for me in ZDoom.

[Crusader No Regret]

Posting at my own pace. Have played to map 12 so far.

Map 6: Useless inventions
Not fully blind, I've read others comments and was forewarned about the last area. Some effective monster placement off the bat since going for that shiny shotgun releases some lost souls that will likely get the first strike if one doesn't think to turn around. Turned me off the map for a bit.
Pick up the map again and discover a way to semi-barricade them so I'm only facing one or two at once rather than five or six. With that obstacle handled, I clear out the starting warehouse and am surprised to find a door leads to an outdoor area. The resulting encounter proceeds to kick my tail at least a dozen times and I almost give up trying this without saves. But before giving up, there's something crazy I decide to try.

Know how revenants won't fire homing missiles when close to their target (unless put into pain state)? I exploit the heck out of that behavior.
On HMP, two revenants teleport into the warehouse when the street is revealed. Their purpose appears to be to drive the player into the street. I do pop out into the street at the south exit to take out some chaingun snipers but then retreat back into the smallish area with the chaingun. There I weave and dance with the key being persuading revenants to play with the cacodemons. It does eventually work after some more failed attempts. This gives me enough of a foothold to clean out the rest of the street area.
Rest of the map is less difficult. Acquire yellow key and visit optional area for SSG. Also got red key but didn't find out where to use it. I think I picked the easier of the twin lifts to descend too. Died at the revenant pack with Archvile companion.

Still playing Beta 1 so I'm guessing my nitpick with the invisible teleport out of the BTSX secret taking the player so far away has already been addressed.

[Salt-Man Z]

Magnusblitz said:

Displays "lurk" for me in ZDoom.

Interesting. I'm using the second beta with GZDoom. Are you on widescreen? I'm not; I noticed one of the "the"s got truncated to "th" but figured it was just a widescreen/fullscreen issue (I see plenty of those in modern wads.) The "lur." didn't seem the same, though, since the period was clearly visible. I'll post a screenshot in the release thread later tonight.

[punnyone]

Map 12 - Demons Are Real - 100% Kills/Secret. HMP Skill.

Oh, demons are real indeed! After the absolutely massive "Eureka Signs", Skillsaw brings us a significantly smaller map that revolves around an arena, of sorts. The design as usual is top notch. From the sloped walls of the "Arena" to the opposing sides of a fortress in the sunken water room, there is plenty of eye candy to be found.

The new sky texture adds a bit more color to the overall pallate. Those crosses in the sky are a nice touch as well. Also, clever job interpolating the song "Back To Saturn X" into the music track for this level!

Much of the combat in this level was fairly manageable. It wasn't until I picked up the red key that all hell literally broke loose. That arena soon became absolutely piled up with all sorts of hellspawn. One encounter I loved was the aforementioned fight in the two fortresses by the sinking water pool. I ended up with 9% health, defending the fortress against all the cacodemons, revenants, and hitscanners that were trying to get me. Coming through that just barely alive was quite a satisfyingly fun challenge. That ending fight though, absolutely brutal and claustrophobic.

Overall, a map that though small on size, is packed with great gameplay and combat.

[Steve D]

Salt-Man Z said:

Interesting. I'm using the second beta with GZDoom. Are you on widescreen? I'm not; I noticed one of the "the"s got truncated to "th" but figured it was just a widescreen/fullscreen issue (I see plenty of those in modern wads.) The "lur." didn't seem the same, though, since the period was clearly visible. I'll post a screenshot in the release thread later tonight.

I saw the exact same thing in GZDoom, Salt-Man. There is clearly a period in "Lur." Also got the missing "e" in "th twisted mechanism." I'm not in widescreen, either. Been playing Beta 2 since Map06.

[Dragonsbrethren]

MAP12

Enjoyed this for the most part, nice and short after the map that didn't know when to end. Felt like I had a little too little ammo most of the time, particularly at the end, but probably because I really don't like to use the chaingun much. Speaking of the end, thought the final encounter was bullshit so I just ignored the monsters and hit the exit.

[Worm]

MAP12 - "Demons Are Real": A straightforward castle-y keyhunt, with predictable spawn traps. Nice details like the faked angled walls and the broken structure near the RL. I also like the general look of the area inside the red door.

[Steve D]

Map10 – Eureka Signs by esselfortium – Kills – 100, Items – 98, Secret – 80. End Health – 100, Armor – 6. Death Count – 12. Shells – 48, Bullets 200, Rockets – 7, Cells – 0

UV pistol-start, GZDoom, frequent saves, keyboard-only

This is – I guess – a new, nastier essel? I dunno, I've shed my share of pelts in esselmaps before this one. But yeah, it gets pretty mean in here.

I'm possibly an outlier in that I enjoyed the map more as it went on, and I thought the base sections were better-looking than the goth/brick/Maya whatever the fuck it is. ;D I think maybe I just wasn't thrilled with the shade of bricks at the start, but the detail and layout was quite good, there and throughout. And essel's Noir is yet another sweet BGM.

The opening battle was very dickish and killed me 3 times, and was a harbinger of jagoffy things to come. That single shotty seemed utterly worthless against the 3 Revvies that teleported behind me. In one attempt, I fled all the way to the stairs below the Archie platform, where I was chaingunned to death, so I eventually decided to stand my ground and fight it out against the teleporting Revvies so I could tackle the area sequentially, instead of being flushed like a grouse and immediately fired-upon by every hunter in the county. The Zerk was providential, since I used it to punch-out 2 of the Revvies after emptying my single-shotty on them. Then it was time to grab the Plasma Gun from the Revvies guarding it and kill everything else. So far, so good.

Obviously, I can't go into every battle, because I started the map with 420 monsters to kill, and thanks to the huge number of Archies, I ended-up killing 468. Suffice to say that there were many decent-to-good fights here in the opening, and that essel gave us a really sweet layout with all kinds of strategic possibilities for running up and down stairs, fighting from above and below, and so on. Right away, you learn that this is going to be a trappy map, and you will encounter teleporting baddies and locked-room traps ahead.

The only fight I thought was bad is one I've discussed already in the Camping/Traps thread. This occurs when you get the blue key and lower the door into the next pool. You go there and a butt-ton of monsters, including 2 Archies, several Sergeants, with Chaingunners, Imps and at least 1 Arachnotron, rise from the water directly in front of you. It's 2 Archies plus their meat shields in a room that has no visible cover. So I backed up, died 3 times, and ultimately prevailed when, by luck, I finally saw the Archies approaching the portal ahead of their meat shields, so I could finally SSG their ugly asses. I thought this fight was more of an obstacle than anything else, and I did try to Rambo it just to see if there was any useful cover in that room for my next attempt. Luckily, all the other fights are better than this one. Edit: And as I mentioned in the other thread, this fight becomes instantly better if you remove the Archies.

I should make note of the Blursphere secret. Was that for fighting the Archies? It seemed odd to me. A Rocket Launcher would've been the bomb here.

The next notable fight was for the Rocket Launcher which we encounter a good bit farther on. You can really get yourself in trouble here if you charge recklessly into the fray, as I did, twice, only to die. The layout here is very flowy and looping, so players have a wide range of choices in how to attack this area, though I preferred to stay up top and terminate with extreme prejudice as many monsters as I could. It can be said that essel has allowed Doomers to play dentist, since we can sequentially remove all the teeth from this battle, but I appreciated the option of being a weasel and using strategy. ;)

I should mention that after the big trap that happens before you raise the bridge, I was initially miffed because essel placed a Medikit in front of a switch, and I was at 94%. I sort of forgave him when I learned that the switch lowered a lift and took me to a secret Soulsphere. ;D

One of the weirdest bits of monster placement is the critters guarding the bridge switch. I saw them from outside and just blasted them all through the windows. The windows were so narrow, the monsters couldn't shoot back. Some adjustment may be needed.

The double Archie front-and-back battle at the red key was fun. As with many of the traps, you had to move your ass in a hurry or die. I died twice, IIRC, so I wasn't always fast enough.

I hate platforming, so I did a mouldy and clipped my way through. I don't like doing that, because I always worry that there might be a trigger line I miss, but I was really tired and all stuffed-up from hay fever, so I didn't have the patience to mess with it.

So, that bit with the Cacos in the library. I'm pretty sure it worked as intended with me. I tried twice to stand my ground and fight the gasbags right there, which resulted in death. So I figured that this time, being flushed like a grouse might be good for me, and after a couple tries, I turned left, plasmaed some Revvies and Chaingunners around the corner, saw a shitload of rocket-boxes in the pool below, leaped down and hosed everything I saw with the PG, before switching to the RL to blast Cacos out of the sky. I still managed to die again when a sniping Manc I didn't realize existed put me to sleep, and yet again when I opened another room, saw some goodies, and had 2 Archies appear behind me. Enough with the Archies, already! ;D But overall, this was a moment of true madcap glee.

And yes, I died my first time through the final fight, and yeah, it was kind of odd that after blasting through this ginormous-ass map, the exit itself is anticlimactically located in a narrow closet. :D

Overall, I liked it, though I'd have preferred a shorter map. I do like the theme changes, because spreading goth textures across a full map this size would have become visually tedious.

[DeathevokatioN]

I'm surprised and quite happy to see the reception for Map09, enjoyed reading even the negative comments. :)

I'm tired and bad at writing essays so I apologize this comes across as incoherent rambling of a madman.

If anyone wants some insight behind it, a fun fact is that there are actually 4 different versions of it, each with a different texture set. It was originally inspired by the theme of DooM 2 Map03, and Plutonia Map04 which made use of lots of metal 2 textures, combined with inspiration from Traverse Dunn's earlier works which emphasized height variation.

It didn't really fit into RoD's theme, so it underwent a second overhaul which involved converting it into stock Doom 2 textures for another project (which crashed and burned and to include it in that was a bad idea to begin with), then I got an offer to work on BtSX during which time I was inspired by Darkening E2, Plutonia as well as the amazing set of BtSX textures and I redesigned it accordingly and was happy with the result, this is actually my personal favorite version and arghh the screenshots here make feel so nostalgic http://imgur.com/a/IyHJJ , but at the same time I think Essel did some great work on it, and I think an overhaul was probably necessary to help it "fit" into the surrounding maps of BtSX E2 as well as the fact that there's a huge burn out over the techbase theme from E1.

[mouldy]

MAP 11 - Episode Hub by Xaser

Mysterious temple shenanigans. Followed by some words which I didn't read. I never read the words in doom wads, so its nothing personal.

MAP12 - "Demons Are Real" by Skillsaw

Nice chilled out map, feels like the difficulty dropped a notch, I guess since we are starting a new chapter that's fair enough. Some fairly stress free dooming here, lots of weapons handed to you near the start which makes a nice change, and makes mincemeat of most of the fights, but I aint complaining. The bastard moment was the final archvile, which gave me an unavoidable death due to lack of cover. Luckily I use saves, so I laugh at such things, and exit with 100% kills and secrets. Very striking sky with the big white crosses, not sure what they are, but looks interesting.

[dobu gabu maru]

MAP11: Oh, so apparently we're turning on parts of the facility? I noticed back in the first hub that there was a window I could peek into and I saw the furnace/teleporter, but seeing as I turned it on in this hub, shouldn't it be off in the first one? Otherwise nice work here again Xaser, I always appreciate the calm atmosphere before the storm.

MAP12: Out of the entire BtSX team, I definitely favor skillsaw's maps the most. His layout, flow, and monster composition resonate highly with me and this map is no exception. From the frantic opener to the claustrophobic hoedown every part of this monster infested temple was entertaining. Fantastic work as always—especially on the health, which left me aching for medical supplies throughout the entire journey. Great great great.

(Also, I really like this painting/etching. I wasn't really feeling the MARBFACE replacements but this one is really eerie and evocative, the single inverted cross pulling the player's attention away from the gaunt Beksinski-like figure that shields it. Cool stuff)

[Xaser]

dobu gabu maru said:

I noticed back in the first hub that there was a window I could peek into and I saw the furnace/teleporter, but seeing as I turned it on in this hub, shouldn't it be off in the first one?

Oh, huh -- somehow I never thought of that, but you're right, it'd make a lot more sense if the destination fireports start in the 'off' state too. Thanks for the idea. :D

[darkreaver]

Any more funfacts and uh...stories behind the maps, Xaser?

[glenzinho]

Crusader No Regret said:

Know how revenants won't fire homing missiles when close to their target (unless put into pain state)? I exploit the heck out of that behavior.

I was under the impression that what determines normal/homing missile behaviour was whether the game tic is an odd or even number.

[Magnusblitz]

MAP12: Demons Are Real
100% kills, 1/1 secret

Similar to MAP10, this one features a lot of looping back, but I think it does it in a much superior fashion. I felt that MAP10 loops back but in a sort of superficial way, like taking a long string and laying it over itself - the actual amount of re-used areas was pretty low. Here, the areas get used for multiple large fights, with only the watery area leading to the yellow key really feeling separated.

The ambushes aren't as clever or difficult as MAP10's - but they still have a decent amount of bite to them if the player is lazy (I also suspect they may be much more difficult on pistol start, as I abused my large continuous reserves of plasma and rockets). The only encounter I didn't like was the end one - the barons are initially just ammo dumps, the player might need to reload not knowing what enemies will come through, and then the barons potentially turn into ammo dumps again when the AV pops out. Aside from that though, nice good little level.

Bugs: There's some HOMs in the soulsphere secret on the way back.

4/5

[Magnusblitz]

Salt-Man Z said:

I'm using the second beta with GZDoom. Are you on widescreen? I'm not; I noticed one of the "the"s got truncated to "th" but figured it was just a widescreen/fullscreen issue (I see plenty of those in modern wads.) The "lur." didn't seem the same, though, since the period was clearly visible.

Yeah, 1920x1080, so might be widescreen issue judging from SteveD as well.

glenzinho said:

I was under the impression that what determines normal/homing missile behaviour was whether the game tic is an odd or even number.

I'm thinking the same. I do believe that the revenants tend to not fire missiles unless they 1) can't reach the player or 2) get shot at. Left untouched, they'll usually just try to run at the player and get in melee range.

[NuMetalManiak]

MAP11 Tower In The Fountain of Sparks

Took me awhile to find out where the exit was. Apparently, it's the building to the north, where I had to walk through fire.

MAP12 Demons Are Real

you think? :p

Anyways, another decent combat-oriented outing by Skillsaw, with challenging but fun encounters. The opener is a startler however, but at least the action isn't right off the bat. On continuous I had a quite a few rockets so it made things slightly easier for me. Some pretty cool scenarios where monster walls are revealed with alright opposition. Teleport traps are plentiful but also predictable since they usually come after key grabs. The final room has some rockets in the middle and some close-quarters dealings, the archvile joins in after the second switch press (I think it would be better if he were flagged deaf though, to give the corner-huggers a chance to find the weapon of choice to obliterate him and everyone else).

MAP13 Nation Gone Dry

I don't know about this one. When there isn't any action going on it's pretty darn dry (as it's title says!) but when there is it's pretty brutal. At the beginning is a revenant scare, but I took more from the sneaky cliffside monsters. When going through the temple I ended up with revenants on my behind in a mild dick move. The switch that raised the floor to the YK had quite some heavy opposition too. With yellow key in hand, strangely enough, the YK doors open before I get the chance to open them (?) and I eventually head west. I'm quite grateful the slime (nukage, whatever) isn't damaging, cuz first I tried to run and found myself under loads of fire. It was better to make them come to the hallway. Red key trap had a rather predictable archvile but also two revenants that emerged to be meatshields and annoy me. At least they had two fiery secrets available.

Behind the red door, this room gets a big fat fuckin' zero due to having an archie teleport directly behind me when I'm attacking the imps, as well as another sneaky guy in front of a switch. Even more annoying were the hard-to-hit cacos and pain elemental combo which swarmed and dispersed as they pleased. Worst room on the house. Ending area had me formulating a strategy against symmetrical monster placement. It's not so bad since I go to one side and then the other just to take down a few enemies (like the cliff archies). Also, as I was approaching this area, I noticed this nation has gone wet, quite a good concept to fit with the title. That's wonderful, but I found the gameplay to be mostly meh but with a few dick moves here and there that spice things up.

[Salt-Man Z]

MAP12: Demons Are Real
Holy Moses, I love Skillsaw maps. 100% everything, and I only died like once...before the exit room, that is. There, I died a lot, even starting with 200% health. I only beat it when the archie randomly decided to run outside instead of in, and I was able to pin him down with the SSG. There was one switch that was far too difficult to find: the one on the backside of a cave wall that raises the zigzag bridge. Otherwise, what a fun map.

[kmxexii]

MAP11 RETURN TO THE TOWER IN THE FOUNTAIN OF SPARKS II

another visit to the hub. there isnt a whole lot of new stuff to explore but you can look into the eastern chasm / bridge network as well as that ancient colonnade you saw earlier, plus learn more of the secrets of saturn x, like the building you emerge from or the teleport tower. there is also an ominous dam to the north with a tower way off in the distance. looks kind of spooky.

rating: one bad moon on the rise

[Demonologist]

MAP13 - "Nation Gone Dry" by Jimmy/Tarnsman
Wait a minute, was it a map by Jimmy that was actually fun to play?.. [No offence to Jimmy, but eh, majority of his stuff aside from Adventures of Square is pretty far from my liking.]
At least for the most part. I disagree with j4rio about this map being one of the most boring ones in general, though I do have some grievances that affected its state for me quite notably:

- while I'm cool with ssg being farther away, since in fact nothing stops the player from running to it and taking the fight at that point, I'd still prefer it closer to the start to avoid unnecessary single barrel slog;

- I like pretty much all the events prior to the red door (even though some of them are a bit awkward, like that 4-rev key encounter that has zero pressure and gives no incentive to fight them rather than ordinary bloodthirst), after this milestone things start to go wrong. I have zero issue with AV backstabbing the player, but once you've done with him - it's just a matter of boring takedown of large groups from the higher ground with lots of cover;

- next, the encounter with cacos/PEs and a single AV when the water level lowers is an absolute miss. There's too much space, so that lone poor fiery bastard accepts his bitter fate right away, and all the flyers really suck at achieving their purposes, all the player has to do is running in circles and gunning them down. This battle needs to be revised completely, probably even with total lineup change (I'd suggest going with teleporting crap and more ground opposition replacing - or supporting - flyers, up to you dev peeps to try and decide though);

- that final ambush in the exit area, with AVs jumping on a ground level from their vantage positions and arachs/mancs joining them doesn't work very well either, everything is easily cheesed in there. Some modifications are required to give it more teeth.

I believe that after solving issues like that I'd safely add this map to my list of favorites, but in its current form it's somewhat raw. I dig the aesthetics though, just as always, heh. I guess I could even stop writing about looks, since every map from now on looks cool, so it would be repeating the same thing over and over again.

[dew]

Getsu Fune said:

MAP12 Demons Are Real

you think? :p

We had to accumulate a sizable sample of maps before passing a decisive verdict.

[j4rio]

I liked 12.

Demonologist said:

MAP13 -
At least for the most part. I disagree with j4rio about this map being one of the most boring ones in general, though I do have some grievances that affected its state for me

I'm surprised you liked it so much. Looking back on it while watching your FDA, I still believe it to be one of the weaker e2 spots. Just about every notable trap had questionable setups. I'll just name some stuff I think could be done to make me dislike it less.

- Those two camping revenants at start really don't need to be there, they're not dangerous but still enough of a priority to be taken out. With only sg at disposal, it isn't exactly a recipe for fun.

- There's no point for the middle part of room with YK to block monsters there. Especially that vile should be free to follow player outside if (s)he retreats.

- Manc standing on YK really doesn't make much sense. 2 chainers would work miles better instead.

- I don't get why are all monsters in parts of map accessible with YK already activated while going for button which makes YK accessible. They'll just clog up around entrances and randomly infight.

- I don't like the setup around button which makes YK accessible. 2 more sniping revenants that don't really do a whole lot and require weak weapons (sg, cg) to kill, 2 arachnotrons on platforms which are also there just for the sake of being there. It would make more sense to teleport something back around the room where YK is placed once it's possible to take.

- Some weapon relocation wouldn't hurt either. I think RL could be trasferred to the area near start with minimal ammo at disposal.

- The RK fight could be a bit different. Instead of only those 4 revenants getting released, at least 8 imps could be teleported in and all the imps that are already there in front of those fiery walls can be removed.

- After RK door, I'd add a trigger somewhere not far from entrance that lowers sectors 590 and 596 to lowest floor, that way you won't be able to cheese the fight with av and the rest of stuff placed there.

- I agree those cacos just don't work. Some sector rebuilding to increase their flow would be necessary, I suppose.

- I don't get what the setup of last room is supposed to accomplish.

[Velvetic]

MAP11 - "Tower in the Fountain of Sparks II" by Xaser

"WOW!! I'm on a mountain!!"




MAP12 - "Demons Are Real" by Skillsaw

A quick and fun map, also very hard at he end (almost died at the end, i was cornered by 2 demons and de arch-vile caught me, but i managed to survive with 100% health). The level design is detailed as always, but this one is a little bit different, it's stylish and very dirty at the same time. What i didn't like was the cheap traps that was sooo obvious (you grab a key and fight for your life), and that made me a bit angry at the end, but nonetheless, it was a fun map and i enjoyed killing all those revenants and mancubi.




MAP13 - "Nation Gone Dry" by Jimmy/Tarnsman

A nice puzzle map that isn't too hard or too easy, i'm starting to think that this is plutonia on drugs (revenants, mancubi and arch-viles everywhere). I'm going to have a hard time completing this playthrough (i love doom, but i'm a noob at it).

[Demonologist]

@ j4rio: While I agree that this map is relatively slow-paced compared to maps like 09 & 12 - I think it's done alright here (sort of... Eternal-style I'd say), without delving into "utter slog" territory (08) and without dragging around itself for too long (10; yeah, yeah, I remember that you think otherwise...), so why not. While some of the earlier issues you listed may be addressed indeed to make it a bit smoother - I don't consider them dealbreakers. So all in all - I'm pretty sure this map can be saved without changing too much about it (like, touching layout and such), as it's potentially good enough even with its second half being sort of messed up atm.
My FDA isn't very advocative I presume, since it has already been collectively decided that I'm an honorless coward, thus I can only camp and hug the corners and having fun in the process isn't my top priority. FWIW - I can say that I actually had some fun with it, yet I could've ended having much more with the second half being more focused and rounded up.


Oh and yeah, forgot to say that the music track made me laugh, and quite loud. It's not bad, mind you, but it sounds really funny in a setting like this. Amigos, muchachos, caballieros! Where's my Spanish guitar, putas?

[j4rio]

Demonologist said:

without dragging around itself for too long (10; yeah, yeah, I remember that you think otherwise...)

I don't believe lenght of map itself is really something I would ever criticise about map. If it's long and I believe it to play allright, then it's fine with me. If it's long and doesn't play allright, then I don't adress the lenght to be the problem.

I agree 13 can be made much better without much effort, as the layout is well constructed and easy to work with, but that is also precisely why I'm bothered by it. A lot of missed potential as it is currently.

[Demonologist]

j4rio said:

I don't believe lenght of map itself is really something I would ever criticise about map. If it's long and I believe it to play allright, then it's fine with me. If it's long and doesn't play allright, then I don't adress the lenght to be the problem.

Generally speaking - it's not really about the length in itself, rather than about issues that become amplified greatly by a map's big size, especially when they're the recurring ones. I admit that this stuff can be considered utterly subjective though; so if anyone disagrees - so be it, I don't mind. I'm not proposing anything, anyway, and mixing it with dirt isn't my goal since, as I already said, there are parts about it that I like. Ah well.

j4rio said:

A lot of missed potential as it is currently.

Indeed.

[punnyone]

Map 13 - Nation Gone Dry - 100% Kills/Secrets - HMP Skill.

You know you are in for a brutal level when it opens with a revenant working its way towards you, accompanied by ominous piano music nonetheless! "Nation Gone Dry" is a very interesting level indeed, and there were many highs/lows I had while playing it.

Much of what I liked stems from the visuals and overall map design. There is a mix of grey temple (with a whole bunch of neat archways), and natural stone textures. Plus, there's some fitting Egyptian-sounding music to boot. Having the first segment of the level go from a dry barren wasteland to being filled with water is one of the best ideas I've seen so far for E2. That waterfall room also look absolutely awesome.

But looks aren't all that make a map good. The gameplay is where I felt the map needs work. Just about every other turn of the corner and nearly every fight, included 1-3 revenants. It's not that this became difficult (actually, it was easy to get away from many of them), it just made the map feel monotonous and repetitive.

There were a few really frustrating/brutal moments such as the waterfall room. That first arch-vile trap, and the subsequent release of caco's and pain's in a hard to reach water tube proved to be irritating. I figure that as long as the pain elemental is removed and the archies toned down, then this area is at least made a little bit better combat wise.

Overall, one of the most uniquely designed levels in the episode. It looks fantastic, but for the most part, the gameplay needs work.

[mouldy]

MAP13 - "Nation Gone Dry" by Jimmy/Tarnsman

Large spike in difficulty after the previous. Very annoying start to this one, largely down to the chaingun snipers, but also there is a lot of meat to get through before you get even SSG. It seems like the theory is to encourage you to run past everything to get tooled up, but in practice this is so dangerous that you are better off methodically clearing the map as you go with peashooters, which is quite a chore with all the revenants running about. Eventually you get a toe-hold, and then things run a bit more smoothly once the bigger weapons come along. Very clever stuff going on with raising and falling water levels, nice way to transform the environment. The fights are never quite as harsh as the start, though there are some bastard moments involving archviles. For the final arena it all seems to kick off as soon as the set foot in there, so doesn't really encourage you to do much other than run away and fight from the corridor. But then you'd be crazy to take on 2 archviles without an escape route anyway. Very well constructed map, think I'd prefer it with an earlier SSG though.

[Tarnsman]

j4rio said:

Those two camping revenants at start really don't need to be there, they're not dangerous but still enough of a priority to be taken out. With only sg at disposal, it isn't exactly a recipe for fun.

I'm going to just start removing ammo from every map. Leave in just enough to kill hitscanners and make everyone Tyson every projectile monster. Then when Doomers finally accept that if they have just a shotgun vs mid-tier they can run past it, they can have their ammo back. As for that last area that's one instance where I will support blocking bars to lock the player into that area.

[j4rio]

Or just don't put there any weapons at all. If you want player to run past monsters, having no weapons is the best way to achieve that.

This was already discussed and the reply I got was something along the lines that leaving monsters behind is a speedrunning territory, not something you can expect players to do without foreknowledge. Oh, and the gal who said so is a btsx tester.