[Wolfenstein: Blade of Agony] Achievement Ideas? (p13)

[Obsidian]

9 minutes ago, Wereknight said:

*Bit o' crassness*

 

Tread lightly, you're one of the people contributing to said implosion.

[Toilet_Wine_Connoisseur]

9 minutes ago, Man of Doom said:

Ok, so I just want to get something out of the way as concisely as I can.

 

When I made that thread in Everything Else about how we need to keep toxic people out of the “boomer shooter” spaces in light of then-recent controversies, a lot of people thought I was just referring to “just toxic people in general”. So I’d like to make myself clear on that front.

 

I was explicitly referring to toxic people becoming revered creators.

 

So that shit like this doesn’t happen ever again. And I really don’t like saying this, but I told you so.

I’m not insinuating right out the gate that Torm is one of those toxic creators, but I’m more than sure that at least more than one toxic person has probably had a hand in this project (if it isn’t Torm). And I am only saying this only to give you the benefit of the doubt (and I am being beyond extremely generous). But what you’ve shown us so far hasn’t exactly been inspiring, to put it lightly.

I mean, you couldn’t even be bothered to just use the difficulty names used in vanilla Wolf3D?

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

No matter what one might say, one of this can be justified by “but it’s WWII and that was the attitude at the time”. If the MachineGames Wolfenstein titles can put something in like a fucking content warning, so can you. It really isn’t that hard. And that’s only the trivial stuff like referring to the Japanese as a racial slur, as well as this weird obsession on getting as many Nazi-related details as correct as possible.

 

As for the more egregious shit like having to kill zombified Holocaust victims and this weird bent on misogyny/transphobia… yeah no, I’m officially out.

 

 

So for your sake Torm, there had better be serious cleaning-up to do because there’s a very fine line between “juvenile humor” like Nazis shitting themselves on the toilet after they die, and… everything else that’s been just described.

 

Though I seriously doubt that kind of cleaning up will be done on your end, considering that you seem to be intent on burning bridges on your way out of the Doom community given how you “tributed” actual people.

 

As @Not Jabba said, Wolf3D didn’t go to these lengths to shock.

Not even the worst moments of the MachineGames titles went to these lengths.

 

*you dropped this king*

 

 yea not a big fan of closing rank and looking the other way when toxic creators do toxic shit.

 

But Misgendering and deadnaming Randy Heit? you just gotta "simply play and enjoy the mod... sigh."

 

I think She has offered a lot more to this community and deserve more respect than a dismissive shoulder shrug while a phalanx of excuses forms to protect reactionary BS like what's in BOA. 

[leodoom85]

Well......if putting achievements are more important than doing a simple asset removal and do the right thing........

 

Damn. 

[jazzmaster9]

2 hours ago, Major Arlene said:

Those "friends" of yours must be very special to you, Torm...

 

Well uh, these sprites exist. (WARNING: NSFW CONTENT, potentially triggering).
 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Woah, this is a bunch of Yikes.

This type of content has no place in this mod.

[Murdoch]

2 hours ago, Major Arlene said:

Well uh, these sprites exist. (WARNING: NSFW CONTENT, potentially triggering).

 

Well that's a whole bunch of disturbing. What is this guy playing at? He just cannot seem to go five minutes without fucking something up.

[whirledtsar]

1 hour ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

I figured things would go down like this, if you go a few pages back in the thread you can see that I questioned some insensitive things in this mod, to which Torm replied that there was nothing to worry about. I don't know what it is lately with people ruining otherwise great mods by including things of shock value. Newsflash for those kinds of content creators: it isn't even shocking, it's just dumb and juvenile and makes you look like you are perpetually an angry teen with a Slipknot hat on. 

If you dont want to play it, then DONT PLAY IT. You dont have to play it if you disagree with the content. Creators arent obligated to censor their work to appease everybody who complains.

[esselfortium]

12 minutes ago, whirledtsar said:

If you dont want to play it, then DONT PLAY IT. You dont have to play it if you disagree with the content. Creators arent obligated to censor their work to appease everybody who complains.

People are also allowed to post that they don't like something. Case in point, I don't like your post and I think your attitude is dumb as hell. I'm not censoring you by having an opinion on it.

[HunterZ]

7 minutes ago, whirledtsar said:

If you dont want to play it, then DONT PLAY IT. You dont have to play it if you disagree with the content. Creators arent obligated to censor their work to appease everybody who complains.

Indeed, and people are similarly not obligated to censor their own concerns about content that reflects poorly on the community.

 

Regardless, I've taken your advice and do not plan to return to my playthrough unless/until concerns are adequately addressed.

[Tarnsman]

26 minutes ago, whirledtsar said:

Creators arent obligated to censor their work to appease everybody who complains.

 

They're not. Websites aren't obligated to host content they find objectionable either. Freedom goes both ways. You can say whatever you want and people can respond however they want.

 

What I really want to know is why we keep talking about a release that can't possibly exist because it's creator clearly quit Doom. 

 

 

 

[Kyka]

While am happy to honor the debate about creators rights to create stuff and gamers right to not play said stuff, I feel that these are broad issues, and don't address the specifics at hand. The creators of this game should be under no obligation to do so, but it seems to me that the offending sexist/trans material could easily be removed without affecting the game even slightly. So that one to me is a no brainer. 

 

Is a content warning required due to the themes of the persecution of jews, slavs, poles and other holocaust survivors? I don't think it is necessary, as it is not gratuitous, intentional or out of context to the game itself, but there is certainly no harm in having a content warning, out of respect for those who may wish to be forewarned, as well as respect for those directly or indirectly affected by the holocaust itself.

 

*The only broader issue worth noting is how intolerant should we be of the intolerance of others.

Edited June 8, 2021 by bLOCKbOYgAMES

[dew]

3 minutes ago, Tarnsman said:

What I really want to know is why we keep talking about a release that can't possibly exist because it's creator clearly quit Doom.  

To complete this thread's nazi bingo, it is actually "its creator".

[Edward850]

40 minutes ago, whirledtsar said:

If you dont want to play it, then DONT PLAY IT. You dont have to play it if you disagree with the content. Creators arent obligated to censor their work to appease everybody who complains.

Dead naming and misgendering go well and far beyond the scope of "don't play it".

Edited June 8, 2021 by Edward850

[Nine Inch Heels]

My suggestion for an achievement would be quitting the game successfully...

 

Other than that, just do the standard shit all the other FPS do...

[whirledtsar]

32 minutes ago, HunterZ said:

Indeed, and people are similarly not obligated to censor their own concerns about content that reflects poorly on the community.

 

Regardless, I've taken your advice and do not plan to return to my playthrough unless/until concerns are adequately addressed.

 

Of course you should also be free to (civilly) voice negative opinions. The thing is your post implied that you assume it's a given that if somebody complains, the creator will and should change their work. Whats disconcerting is the broader attitude in this thread that the mod should be censored or the creator should be shunned.

[Major Arlene]

Just now, whirledtsar said:

 

Of course you should also be free to (civilly) voice negative opinions. The thing is your post implied that you assume it's a given that if somebody complains, the creator will and should change their work. Whats disconcerting is the broader attitude in this thread that the mod should be censored or the creator should be shunned.

kind of a weird hill to die on but alright

[Dieting Hippo]

3 minutes ago, whirledtsar said:

 

Whats disconcerting is the broader attitude in this thread that the mod should be censored or the creator should be shunned.

 

I see those as reasonable options to someone putting transphobic shit in their mod. Take it out or remove yourself from the communit-wait a minute

[Vince Steel]

51 minutes ago, whirledtsar said:

If you dont want to play it, then DONT PLAY IT. You dont have to play it if you disagree with the content. Creators arent obligated to censor their work to appease everybody who complains.

You're not wrong, this much is true. However, apart from the obvious things that have already been mentioned; the right of the player to not play it, the right of the critic to criticize, etc. It's also the prerogative of the community to police itself--not just for itself, but for the image it projects to others.

I'm just a no-name Youtuber and fan, but people like MajorArlene and TWC are creators in this community and their voices carry wisdom.

This goes without saying that BOA solicited donations that, had this been public knowledge prior, they may not have generated.

The core issue at play as I see it isn't one of censorship, but of necessity. How much of this problematic content is necessary for the realization of the creator(s) vision?

Whether you are cool with it or not is your own, personal prerogative, but even something like a mod (a very impressive one at that, which is why this is such a baffling and disheartening situation) is subject to the same esthetic scrutiny as everything else. What is the creator saying by putting this into their mod? What messages are they sending by deadnaming and misgendering a person who is inextricably linked to the vitality of this community? As a collective, *who* and *what* ideologies are we supporting by supporting this mod?

Fix the mod, sure; that'd be great from a PR perspective. However, I would hope that the creator(s) might have a sincere conversation with themselves and figure out why these things are necessary to the esthetic vision and--if found unnecessary--why they were there in the first place.

Ideas don't exist in a vacuum, unfortunately, but this is a teachable moment.

[wrangler56]

27 minutes ago, dew said:

To complete this thread's nazi bingo, it is actually "its creator".

Made an account to say that's a bar. But uh, yeah, weird torture porn in doom wads is kinda bad, yeah.

Edited June 8, 2021 by wrangler56

[whirledtsar]

1 minute ago, Dieting Hippo said:

I see those as reasonable options to someone putting transphobic shit in their mod. Take it out or remove yourself from the communit-wait a minute

What specifically is transphobic? I havent played the mod myself. Have you? It seems like a lot of people are just taking every vague accusation at face value and not giving Tormentor667 any benefit of the doubt. It seems like it would be very strange for him to post this mod (a collaborative effort that took a long time to create) on the forum in a seemingly normal/friendly way, but also have outright personal hatred in it.

[Not Jabba]

1 minute ago, whirledtsar said:

What specifically is transphobic? I havent played the mod myself. Have you? It seems like a lot of people are just taking every vague accusation at face value and not giving Tormentor667 any benefit of the doubt.

 

I played the entire game and my rundown of everything I felt was wrong with its content is posted in this thread.

[Major Arlene]

Just now, whirledtsar said:

What specifically is transphobic? I havent played the mod myself. Have you? It seems like a lot of people are just taking every vague accusation at face value and not giving Tormentor667 any benefit of the doubt. It seems like it would be very strange for him to post this mod (a collaborative effort that took a long time to create) on the forum in a seemingly normal/friendly way, but also have outright personal hatred in it.

Deadnaming is the use of the birth or other former name of a transgender or non-binary person without the person's consent. Deadnaming may be accidental; however, it may also be used to intentionally dismiss, deny or reject a person's gender identity.

 

misgendering: refer to (someone, especially a transgender person) using a word, especially a pronoun or form of address, that does not correctly reflect the gender with which they identify.
 

a very quick and Googleable lesson.

[Shadow Hog]

1 minute ago, whirledtsar said:

What specifically is transphobic? I havent played the mod myself. Have you? It seems like a lot of people are just taking every vague accusation at face value and not giving Tormentor667 any benefit of the doubt. It seems like it would be very strange for him to post this mod (a collaborative effort that took a long time to create) on the forum in a seemingly normal/friendly way, but also have outright personal hatred in it.

Just gonna assume you just missed this - I know it took me a bit to find it after seeing it quoted elsewhere - so here it is again:

 

6 hours ago, Not Jabba said:

-There's a character in the game who's a "tribute" to Randi Heit, a prominent transwoman in the Doom community who created ZDoom. In the process, she is deadnamed and misgendered. The character named after her is also a shitfaced drunk who jokes about his huge dong. Other tribute characters fared no better, to be fair -- the guy named after Enjay is an emaciated prisoner shitting in a concentration camp outhouse. I can only pray Torm never sees fit to homage me.

 

[dew]

2 minutes ago, whirledtsar said:

What specifically is transphobic? I havent played the mod myself. Have you?

Oh boy, we have a platonic debater here! We are debating on abstracted merits now! How can any of your claims be real if I am the only real thing in the universe?

[Terraformer9x]

3 minutes ago, whirledtsar said:

What specifically is transphobic? I havent played the mod myself. Have you? It seems like a lot of people are just taking every vague accusation at face value and not giving Tormentor667 any benefit of the doubt. It seems like it would be very strange for him to post this mod (a collaborative effort that took a long time to create) on the forum in a seemingly normal/friendly way, but also have outright personal hatred in it.

 

Have you been even reading the thread at all?

[MTrop]

Well, on the bright side, at least Torm left.

 

I think.

[whirledtsar]

Just now, Major Arlene said:

Deadnaming is the use of the birth or other former name of a transgender or non-binary person without the person's consent. Deadnaming may be accidental; however, it may also be used to intentionally dismiss, deny or reject a person's gender identity.

 

misgendering: refer to (someone, especially a transgender person) using a word, especially a pronoun or form of address, that does not correctly reflect the gender with which they identify.
 

a very quick and Googleable lesson.

Interesting lesson, but I dont live under a rock. The thing is that it sounds like there's a character that references the person (who was known as a male for much of their life). Not a direct representation of the person. So the character being a different gender doesnt imply anything about the person themselves. I mean, maybe people could just give Torm the benefit of the doubt and say "hey, this could be interpreted this way, what do you have to say about that". Instead of saying he's racist/sexist/x-phobic, which are pretty much the most evil things one can be in American culture.

[andreadworkin4thaweekend]

beyond the obviously shitty hurtful things from above, the more i think about this the more i think this mod doesn’t totally understand what made wolfenstein entertaining

 

for a long time, nazis were hated by a majority of the video gaming public, and thus one was able to play a fps with human enemies without thinking too hard about the murder- nazis are scum, nazis are inhuman, no good nazi but a dead nazi. bringing in generic nazi undead works, because it speaks to their inhumanity. when you start showing the victims of the shoah and making it so you must murder their undead bodies, it no longer lets the player treat their enemies as inhuman, it ruins the power fantasy. it’s not just tasteless, it’s skewering its own systems and basis for existence. if you take that away, what remains?

Edited June 8, 2021 by andreadworkin4thaweekend

[LexiMax]

7 minutes ago, whirledtsar said:

The thing is that it sounds like there's a character that references the person (who was known as a male for much of their life). Not a direct representation of the person.

 

This seems like a distinction without a difference.  We can agree it's a reference, so why not get the reference right?

 

8 minutes ago, whirledtsar said:

Instead of saying he's racist/sexist/x-phobic, which are pretty much the most evil things one can be in American culture. 

 

He's not American, and I don't know what America you've ever visited, but there are many places that - if they knew of the mod - would be oblivious to the transgressions of the mod, or even welcome him with open arms.  He is not a victim.

[siteod]

what the entire fuck is going on here

[Mr. Freeze]

"Wow cool, the Wolfenstein thread is really spiking in activity. I haven't read it in a few weeks, let's see what's going on...oh my God"

Edited June 8, 2021 by Mr. Freeze