[Wolfenstein: Blade of Agony] Achievement Ideas? (p13)

[dac]

5 minutes ago, Gustavo6046 said:

 

I do not contend that Torm's excuses are questionable at best. But I must question how this "positive example" could apply to this situation.

 

In such hypothetical scenario, there would be no reaction or noticing at all, or at least not one that would lead to a debacle of this magnitude. If actual real life persons were found to be portrayed by such characters in the manner that you describe, it would be perceived as a cameo or tribute of sorts. And there would be no reason to ask if they were mistakes, since they would be, well, positive facts.

 

A mistake is recognized, or at least discussed at all, when a superior state of the subject matter is expected and desired, not when you have something already good. In other words, when something better, or alternatively less bad, should have been done. Therefore, a more fitting counter-example would be if the characters lacked any sort of pejorative nature, but still portrayed real persons without the author having attained their permission beforehand; for, indeed, the reaction wouldn't be as severe, if at all, but if there were, for instance due to the unauthorized usage of one's image in the work, it would actually make sense to ever discuss the characters' existence as a mistake, honest or not, at all.

 

In that the character is still an homage to Marisa Heit, but with the wrong gender. I'm seeing this from my own point of view here, from someone who's been playing Doom on and off through years: If I wasn't following the Cacowards, I wouldn't know Marisa is a trans woman - she either hasn't been really active or is active in the circles I'm in. Easy mistake to make, but also an easy correction, and an easy apology.

 

But yeah, this is getting off topic a bit, so I'll shut up.

[roadworx]

Just now, Gustavo6046 said:

 

That description is much more positive than what I imagined given others' descriptions of the character. Although others have pointed out other irregularities that damage Torm's reputation and his right to receive benefit of the doubt, which are yet to be dismissed with justification. And, while that may always have been the description in the page, that doesn't preclude the possibility of the character's actual nature ingame - and therefore the depiction of Randi, among others - being inconsistent with that of the description in the website, nor would it justify any hostility he may have conducted online, should he have.

idk zdoom scripting but i'll try and look for the strings in question on github

[Adahn]

I remember playing this and thinking it was one of the highest quality doom mods I had ever played... well, this is a strange way for it to turn out. I guess it's high quality in terms of gameplay and design, but quite the opposite in terms of how it handles the main subject matter... 

[Shepardus]

6 minutes ago, roadworx said:

idk zdoom scripting but i'll try and look for the strings in question on github

The conversation strings are located in the language.csv file, starting from row 1732. https://github.com/Realm667/WolfenDoom/blob/master/language.csv

 

The earliest commit naming the character is this one from January 2017 - I find it a bit easier to read here than in the CSV file that the strings are currently in.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Shepardus

[wallabra]

20 minutes ago, dac said:

In that the character is still an homage to Marisa Heit, but with the wrong gender.

 

Ah, okay, I missed the point there. I really need sleep.

 

Yes, that is valid, and in fact would be much better reason for a reaction to be elicited than what I proposed, and especially fitting given the fact Marisa Heit is a transgender person.

 

*Sigh.* I guess that's why sleeping early is healthy. It keeps people like me from being dumb and missing plainly obvious things like this over and over. I think it's the third time I've "missed the point" of something in the last couple hours on Doomworld. It concerns me that it'd take shouting it aloud, in a plain and obvious phrase, for me to get it. "It's because, despite the positive traits, the character would still be portrayed a he, QED!" We were talking about Torm making fun of Marisa for being transgender, and somehow I glossed over the main part of the example you presented! I'm sorry.

 

20 minutes ago, dac said:

I'm seeing this from my own point of view here, from someone who's been playing Doom on and off through years: If I wasn't following the Cacowards, I wouldn't know Marisa is a trans woman - she either hasn't been really active or is active in the circles I'm in. Easy mistake to make, but also an easy correction, and an easy apology.

 

I think I first realized it when reading the Doom Wiki article on ZDoom. I don't remember very well.

 

17 minutes ago, roadworx said:

idk zdoom scripting but i'll try and look for the strings in question on github

 

Sure thing, mate. Take your time!

 

20 minutes ago, dac said:

But yeah, this is getting off topic a bit, so I'll shut up.

 

I don't really think so. This is discussing BoA, and as far as I am aware, fits the criteria Liberator laid out earlier. But I may be wrong.

 

11 minutes ago, Shepardus said:

The earliest commit naming the character is this one from January 2017 - I find it a bit easier to read here than in the CSV file that the strings are currently in.

 

The closest I can find to some sort of perjury is this.

 

Well, I am... *hic* ... have been busy with erm... other things in the past two decades. Instead of taking care of the radar ... *hic* ... I spend my time supporting the intelligences. I am a very gifted person when it comes to computer techniques, you know, the crazy things that are in develop-- ... *hic* ... in development lately. I was even helping Konrad Zuse 2-3 years ago but well... one or two drinks got in between... and now, here I am, of your service Captain! .. oh, need to continue serving drinks, we will talk another time.

 

"[...] but well... one or two drinks got in between... and now, here I am, [...]"

 

Implying descent by a mental woe, here portrayed as alcoholism, but I didn't yet rule out the possibility that it is an actual analogy to Marisa's sexuality.

 

But I don't know if that would be it. After all, didn't Marisa only turn transgender around the same time ZDoom was discontinued? Isn't this before that? I forgot when precisely, so.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Gustavo6046

[Cacodemon345]

BoA release v3.0 has been taken down altogether.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Cacodemon345

[roadworx]

12 minutes ago, Gustavo6046 said:

 

The closest I can find to some sort of perjury is this.

 

Well, I am... *hic* ... have been busy with erm... other things in the past two decades. Instead of taking care of the radar ... *hic* ... I spend my time supporting the intelligences. I am a very gifted person when it comes to computer techniques, you know, the crazy things that are in develop-- ... *hic* ... in development lately. I was even helping Konrad Zuse 2-3 years ago but well... one or two drinks got in between... and now, here I am, of your service Captain! .. oh, need to continue serving drinks, we will talk another time.

 

"[...] but well... one or two drinks got in between... and now, here I am, [...]"

 

Implying descent by a mental woe, here portrayed as alcoholism, but I didn't yet rule out the possibility that it is an actual analogy to Marisa's sexuality.

 

But I don't know if that would be it. After all, didn't Marisa only turn transgender around the same time ZDoom was discontinued? Isn't this before that? I forgot when precisely, so.

here

Good morning sirrrrr... *hic* ...or good evening? No idea how... *hic* ...late it currently is...Oh well... *hic* ...you caught me in a very gooo-*hic*-ood condition my friend... I'll tell you something if you don't *hic* ... you don't tell anyone elseeey: *hic* ... Thor's Hammer isn't only the ... *hic* ...name of Nazi thingie... it is also the name of... <whistles> the long dong between my legs, hahaha *hic* ... ugh ... I think the last shot was spoiled... *hic*

from the current version

 

11 minutes ago, Cacodemon345 said:

BoA release v3.0 has been taken down altogether.

heh

Edited June 9, 2021 by roadworx

[Shepardus]

33 minutes ago, Gustavo6046 said:

But I don't know if that would be it. After all, didn't Marisa only turn transgender around the same time ZDoom was discontinued? Isn't this before that? I forgot when precisely, so.

I don't know when she came out, but the announcement of ZDoom's discontinuation was on January 7, 2017, the day before the character was added to BoA in the commit I linked.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Shepardus

[Gez]

4 minutes ago, Shepardus said:

I don't know when she came out

If you look at the page history for her on the Doom Wiki, you'll see the page was moved (renamed) on June 26, 2017; and the wiki has been quite reactive usually when handling such matters so I don't think it had been official and public much earlier before.

[LordEntr0py]

Folks, it seems a bit insensitive to still be discussing someone's gender identity and coming out in such detail. Especially when people keep explicitly referring to her deadname.

I get that we mean well, and I get that we want to understand Tormentor667's intent, but this doesn't seem fair on the slighted person to me.

I was ignorant of that reference in BoA until now, and I'm glad I learned of it, but can we agree to draw a line under the speculation?

Edited June 9, 2021 by LordEntr0py

[roadworx]

6 minutes ago, LordEntr0py said:

Folks, it seems a bit insensitive to still be discussing someone's gender identity and coming out in such detail. Especially when people keep explicitly referring to her deadname.

I get that we mean well, and I get that we want to understand Tormentor667's intent, but this doesn't seem fair on the slighted person to me.

I was ignorant of that reference in BoA until now, and I'm glad I learned of it, but can we agree to draw a line under the speculation?

you're right, we should stop

[june gloom]

Having spent some time lurking in the Duke4 forums recently I was reminded of how much I enjoy the more inclusive atmosphere of Doomworld and feeling bad that I hadn't really been active here for some time. I decide to take a peek in here and I find that Realm667 is gone. It didn't take me long to find out why, either, and I have to admit I was sorely disappointed (at least the thread has been entertaining.) I'd been meaning to sit down and play through BoA now that it was done, but I shan't be doing that now.

 

As far as the actual mod, I had performance issues with BoA from the very first episode. I see that nothing has changed.

 

Thanks for being mostly great, though, Doomworld. This thread has been a reminder of why this is probably the only really decent forum dedicated to old video games, plus the ZDoom forum.

[roadworx]

7 minutes ago, june gloom said:

Having spent some time lurking in the Duke4 forums recently I was reminded of how much I enjoy the more inclusive atmosphere of Doomworld and feeling bad that I hadn't really been active here for some time. I decide to take a peek in here and I find that Realm667 is gone. It didn't take me long to find out why, either, and I have to admit I was sorely disappointed (at least the thread has been entertaining.) I'd been meaning to sit down and play through BoA now that it was done, but I shan't be doing that now.

 

As far as the actual mod, I had performance issues with BoA from the very first episode. I see that nothing has changed.

 

Thanks for being mostly great, though, Doomworld. This thread has been a reminder of why this is probably the only really decent forum dedicated to old video games, plus the ZDoom forum.

yeah, this forum is one of the few places where i don't have to worry about being harassed and constantly hear dumbass attack helicopter jokes, which is surprising considering how gaming culture can be. i was honestly kinda stunned at how many transfolk are here, and how open they were about it...i'm not used to that, but it's really nice to have a community like this. idk how he did it but linguica has managed to cultivate one of the most accepting gaming communities out there.

 

 

i will admit tho that the drama is pretty bad for my well-being - i'd rather not revert back to how i was on deviantart, so i should probably not get involved on drama from now on - but luckily stuff like this seems rather rare 

[june gloom]

It really is kind of one-in-a-million, isn't it? Even TTLG, which likes to style itself as more intellectual, is a morass of reactionary horseshit because the mods rarely do their jobs.

[LordEntr0py]

Came to this forum a couple of years ago with considerable trepidation, expecting toxicity, and was very pleasantly surprised. I'm in several satellite Discord servers and I've generally found them to be just as accepting.

[june gloom]

Oh, can you name some? I looked to see if there was an (un)official Doomworld server a while back and found nothing.

 

Actually, to keep this thread on-topic you might as well DM me. Or start a thread in EE maybe.

[Devalaous]

18 minutes ago, roadworx said:

idk how he did it but linguica has managed to cultivate one of the most accepting gaming communities out there.

 

Only really because of the change of heart that resulted in removing stuff like Post Hell; never forget that Doomworld used to have a whole read-only forum dedicated to basically making monuments to the stupidity of its own users. Forum had a very hostile air in those days compared to now. I recall furries being unacceptable and grounds for an instant helling, now several users rock furry avatars and noone bats an eye. Thankfully, forums can change. Everyone has to grow up sometime.

[Shepardus]

For those who actually still have an interest in the mod, the changes being made are tracked here: https://github.com/Realm667/WolfenDoom/issues/795

[june gloom]

It's kind of sad how they don't seem to grasp that the issues with BoA's content are more systemic than mere words. And it feels hollow regardless given the reactions in this thread.

 

3 minutes ago, Devalaous said:

 

Only really because of the change of heart that resulted in removing stuff like Post Hell; never forget that Doomworld used to have a whole read-only forum dedicated to basically making monuments to the stupidity of its own users. Forum had a very hostile air in those days compared to now. I recall furries being unacceptable and grounds for an instant helling, now several users rock furry avatars and noone bats an eye. Thankfully, forums can change. Everyone has to grow up sometime.

 

I mourned the loss of Post Hell when it happened but I also understood why it had to go. I've been coming to Doomworld off and on since the 90s and it really was a different place back then, but then again so was the internet at large. Back then, Something Awful had such a huge influence on internet culture (which explains the furry hate -- anti-furry sentiment was deliberately fostered by SA because of how queer furry fandom is.) That influence was plenty obvious on Doomworld, both in overall attitude and sense of humor as well as features and the look of the forum itself. But I noticed things started a while back, around the time of the 2016 election, especially after Phml took his ball and went home.

[dac]

24 minutes ago, june gloom said:

Oh, can you name some? I looked to see if there was an (un)official Doomworld server a while back and found nothing.

 

Actually, to keep this thread on-topic you might as well DM me. Or start a thread in EE maybe.

 

Not to be too offtopic, but I feel it's be easier to name those that aren't accepting. Even from my list, Bridgeburner's discord is massively popular and very active, and yet it's still a very comfortable place for anyone to be.

 

(But yeah, Something Awful was a disaster for the modern Internet.)

[DavidN]

The irony is that in their showcasing and mockery of furry sites, SomethingAwful was accidentally a great source of furry links before the fandom had more centralized places, and I got involved in my first furry community thanks to them :)

 

I’m pingponging all over the place on BoA now - I do still want to see it succeed as it’s obviously been a massive effort by so many people.

[Captain red pants]

2 minutes ago, dac said:

(But yeah, Something Awful was a disaster for the modern Internet.)

I want to argue, because the site it's self has improved, and is one of the better places to discuss games imo, but I keep meeting SA's bastard children.

[Devalaous]

3 minutes ago, DavidN said:

I’m pingponging all over the place on BoA now - I do still want to see it succeed as it’s obviously been a massive effort by so many people.

 

Indeed, especially as the issues largely seem to be a great big 'whoops, I didnt think this through' as opposed to actual nastiness. Companies make these mistakes in commercial games all the time. Of course, once the internet turns on the Hate Machine, that often tends to be it.

[D00mJedi]

Is all core team members being portrayed in BoA as nazi Bosses (as trubite/easter - maybe spoiler to some) you have to kill - is bad or good portrayal of us?
To see people kill you in every play, time after time?

Why I don't care to be a nazi boss in BoA - and even love the idea - but other tributes should be perfectly good and positive?

[Major Arlene]

1 minute ago, D00mJedi said:

Is all core team members being portrayed in BoA as nazi Bosses (as trubite/easter - maybe spoiler to some) you have to kill - is bad or good portrayal of us?
To see people kill you in every play, time after time?

Why I don't care to be a nazi boss in BoA - and even love the idea - but other tributes should be perfectly good and positive?

Those tributes were done with consent, I'd assume.

The Heit one was not.

Non-comparison.

[Terraformer9x]

3 minutes ago, D00mJedi said:

Is all core team members being portrayed in BoA as nazi Bosses (as trubite/easter - maybe spoiler to some) you have to kill - is bad or good portrayal of us?
To see people kill you in every play, time after time?

Why I don't care to be a nazi boss in BoA - and even love the idea - but other tributes should be perfectly good and positive?

 

It comes down to whether you consented to being portrayed that way. And as far as I can tell, pretty much all of the other tributes in this mod were done without the consent of the people they were based on. If you're gonna do it without their consent (which I don't recommend), then it pretty much goes without saying that you should atleast make it a positive tribute.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Terraformer9x

[Ozymandias81]

Hello everyone, I am here to talk on the behalf BoA Team members and Torm regarding recent facts and BoA development: it has been always openly since 2014, following quite strictly community feedbacks FOR FREE AND FOR THE LOVE OF DOOM/WOLF3D (we take issues seriously, just check monthly and then their total - donations are facultative), which also made us to have more fun with our mod since we have collected lots of scrapped ideas (which who knows, maybe they will be included on future mutators - yes, we are working on mutators too) despite this also slowed down a bit things in terms of resource management, we are in the verge to take all recent criticisms (most of them, some have been too harsh and touchy that I prefer to not talk about, just because they weren't mature behavior adding nothing to the mod, instead causing drama and turning down the general hype) and apply them to 3.1 release. One last suggestion from me regarding the future of BoA, I think you should follow our development to have an idea how things happens in a polite way without any hidden intentions or bad faith (remember the WW-Nazis fact?), commits on github repo talks for themselves. Do you want to let us know something? Then create an issue and describe the problem, if it regards gameplay, a bug or something more sensitive or peculiar.

To end this and hopefully in a good way, since we respect deeply every person (we are all nearly middle-aged pals on team), here you are some lines then reagarding what's going on from today with BoA and its download links:

During the last days and weeks we, the development team behind "Blade of Agony", received a lot of emails, comments and news about the release of the project. While the overwhelming majority found the result and the execution of our work successful, there were also critical voices, among others, which we take just as seriously. First of all, Blade of Agony is a fictional scenario based on the alternative narratives of the Wolfenstein game series by id software and Bethesda and the corresponding canon. It does not represent accurate history, our political stance or thinking of the development team. We reject any form of racial hatred, discrimination, (Neo-)Nazism, anti-Semitism or glorification of the Second World War. We have invested a lot of time and work to communicate this message in our game, to deal sensitively with the content and to create a respectful game experience without discriminating against people or groups of people. Despite meticulous care, we have not succeeded perfectly in all points, which is why we have taken the current version of "Blade of Agony" offline until further notice. We are currently working on a revised version in which we will correct these mistakes and respond to the players' comments and reasonable demands. Until then, we ask for your patience and understanding. Stay psyched!

Here you can find the important issue: http://github.com/Realm667/WolfenDoom/issues/795

Also you may want to check Realm667 website since it got some more detailed news about BoA: http://www.realm667.com/index.php/en/

Have a good day,

- Ozy81 -

Edited June 9, 2021 by Ozymandias81

[Doom64hunter]

Well, it's good that you are removing the bigger issues, but to be frank, I think the damage is already done.

[Dynamo]

5 hours ago, RDETalus said:

It does no good if we cannot accept reasonable apologies, no one can ever move forward if that were the case.

Of course we can, but I hope you understand the community has done that in regards to Torm for the last 15 years or so, give or take. Forgiveness is an excellent thing but at one point you have to ask yourself, "why does this keep happening every single time".

[Doomkid]

2 hours ago, Devalaous said:

never forget that Doomworld used to have a whole read-only forum dedicated to basically making monuments to the stupidity of its own users. Forum had a very hostile air in those days compared to now. I recall furries being unacceptable and grounds for an instant helling, now several users rock furry avatars and noone bats an eye.

Mm, I'd dispute Doomworld ever having a "hostile vibe". Most of the people/threads being mocked in Post Hell were mocked for good reason.

 

For every furry/furry-based thread that turned into a undeserved shitshow (or something similar), you had at least 20-30 threads ranging from hateful shit being (rightfully) sent to PH - the same way it still is today - to insane lunatics trying to fool everyone and lie about their identity (LittleTemple anyone?) to downright disgusting or pointless stuff like literal shitposting. That stuff had no place on old or new Doomworld, and the mockery of such stuff was not a result of hostility among the regulars, it was just an attempt the keep the place sort of sane in the best way internet communities knew how at the time.

 

Doomworld has undoubtedly developed into a place where pointless hate for people based on their sexual preferences (or various other things that should be total non-factors) is absolutely not tolerated, but I'm uncomfortable with the revisionist angle that Doomworld was ever "hateful" or "hostile". Despite the occasional bit of wrongheadedness in past decision making, Doomworld has always had a core principle of "don't be a complete asshole and/or moron and you'll be fine". It's always been WELL above average in terms of "maturity level" (for lack of a less wanky term) compared to the average gaming site, both then and now.

 

(I know this is offtopic but ppl ain't gon be talking shit on my boy DW while I'm around..)

Edited June 9, 2021 by Doomkid