The DWmegawad Club plays: ConC.E.R.Ned & Draft Excluder

[Capellan]

SteveD said:
Adam has said that Sergeants are the most dangerous monsters in Doom, by which I reckon he means Doom 1 and not Doom 2

Yup. Doom 2 has lots of candidates for the role.

[Steve D]

^^^True dat, and this is one of the reasons I enjoy Ultimate Doom -- no Archies. It does mean that the path to a hard UDoom map implies lots of hitscanners, along with Caco swarms and traps that really mob the player, and being stingy on health. Oh, and using Cybs as normal enemies helps, too.

[scifista42]

E2M5 - "Tactical Command"

Map looks nice and makes good use of sergeants. But it's horribly symmetrical and abuses generic structures. I feel bored of it.

[Salt-Man Z]

E2M3: Hydrophonic Facility
I started out weak from the previous exit, and took a beating immediately upon sallying forth in this one. I was actually down to 1% health for 2 or 3 minutes as I ducked into one of the side rooms and managed to clear it out and fend off the oncoming waves of hitscanners, imps, and cacos that meandered down the hallway, poking in the windows and even opening the door on occasion. I don't know how I managed to survive, but I did. :) The final 6 items eluded me for ages until I discovered they were armor bonuses at the foot of that outdoor plateau: they had a pile of caco/shotgunner corpses piled atop them. Anyways, another fun level. Looked good, and I liked all the water. The ending felt fairly abrupt and anticlimactic, though.

[mouldy]

E2M5 - "Tactical Command"
http://www.mediafire.com/download/a1u12klnrqap1st/concern-e2m5-mouldy.lmp

This is a right little adventure, puzzles and battles and dipping in and out of hell. I started off battling for guns and ammo, such a wealth of options I probably took the wrong one and struggled more than I needed to. But generally this was a fair fight, and just easy enough to be fast paced without being a pushover. I didn't even realise until near the end that there was a secret exit to find, so the last part of the demo might be a bit boring as I go around humping walls. Very cool map.

[dobu gabu maru]

SteveD said:

^^^True dat, and this is one of the reasons I enjoy Ultimate Doom -- no Archies.

Sometimes Steve I wonder if you're my foil.

E2M5: This is a bit of a crazy one. While it starts off slow and relaxed, the outdoor area is a kick in the teeth if you get bad sergeant RNG or miss the green armor. There’s actually a lot of different parts to this map and by then end it can feel a bit exhausting (which I assume scifista suffered from)—I think the separated teleporter sequences add to this, as the red key section feels like a level unto itself. I have to mention that at the very top of the map I like the damage sector trap, as I’m prone to run from barons and getting a face full of specters when you turn tail is a great punishment. Overall, it’s a decent level but by no means the star of the episode (that one is coming up soon).

E2M9: Good luck playing this without adjusting the brightness. As I said in the “what have you been playing?” thread, I think the idea here is great—constant darkness where the only way you can see enemies is when you fire—it’s just that when you start throwing hitscanners into the mix it can get real nasty real quick. I died quite a bit here, mostly to having my health drained by the sergeants (though some barons got some real good slugs in). That and most of the traps in this map are just straight dickery—the bottom room to the far left of the map is a clusterfuck if you stay in it, and after hitting two switches in the east wing and warping back to the start, it’s really easy to just get surrounded there and sandwiched into oblivion (because you can’t see there’s enemies charging you up ahead!). There’s low/hard to find ammo (never found the PG), low health, lots of barons, and the map feels designed as if you could see in the dark. My least favorite of E2 due to how noxious it is.

[Magnusblitz]

E2M5: Tactical Command
100% kills, 6/6 secrets

Hoo boy, that's a whole lotta monsters thrown at you. Playing this from a pistol start, I wondered if there would be enough ammo to clear out the opening area (which turned out to be a hub) and so decided to throw myself into the red teleport first. Which was a big mistake, as this is apparently the 'hard' area. I started getting worried that this level wasn't designed for a pistol start when I found myself trapped between the SMM/barons/cyber on the red key and the barons near the soulsphere and with only 20 shells and a half-empty chaingun to take them on. However, it proved to be a fun challenge, getting the monsters to infight and make use of the limited ammo (and the invuln sphere to punch half those dratted barons to death). The next area was a bit of a pain since I was so low on health, but once I got through it and had my RL and plasma gun, the going was much easier. I actually think playing the 'correct' order might be less fun... as most of the encounters in the other areas are a bit rote.

And, heh, multiple switches to push to unlock the exit, each with it's own helpful number identifier. I've said before that Cannonball and I really think alike on secrets, and this just seems to be further proof since I did the same thing in Switcheroom E4M2 (never having played this). Although I think I hit them in order of something like 3-4-1-2-5, and was wondering what the heck "IV" was for a long time (since I didn't notice 3 and thought 1 was just a button on the ground). And apparently the secret level coming up is a 'total darkness' level which is something I've wanted to try, so I think it might just be time to stop mapmaking and let Cannonball make maps for me instead.

So, overall, fun level, plenty of monsters to plow through. There are a couple problems - only about half the FIRELAVA textures animate properly, and the lava in the northeast section of the hell portion isn't damaging, but those are minor concerns.

[Sui Generis]

E2M5 - "Tactical Command"
Now this is pretty cool. A large level centring round a big pit with overlooking monster cages. The central area is initially quite dangerous with the sniping sergeants, but you can happily hang back at the door and chaingun snipe them/chokepoint the cacos. The central area is indeed symmetrical and the parts in corners of the '+' shape are repetitive, but I found there was enough structure and monster pacing for it to flow quite nicely.

Then there are the two central portals to the E1 and E3 themed areas. Each one of these individually is well made and fun. I went for the E1 area first and I think this is probably the easier section. The E3 area is more expansive with combat at more of a mixture of ranges - I really enjoyed both of these, although the E3 section was occasionally quite crude aesthetically. There's a good mix of ambushes vs attrition gameplay, with combats varying across height and range. I also liked the numbered secrets which you can intuit lead to the secret exit (although as I found them all, I didn't initially realise the switch for the secret exit was opened and pressed the standard exit in error!)

Overall, I really like this map and think it's one of the strongest in E2 so far. It contains some clever concepts that have been well-executed.

I found the secret exit, however I will play the secret level tomorrow, once I have more time. (although Dobu's comments suggest I may wish I hadn't! I will see...)

[Capellan]

Oops. Forgot to post my secret map thoughts.

Oh well, will do it tonight. :-)

[Pirx]

e2m4 -

an infirmary turned into a zombie breeder, the dead being nursed by spectres and raising as lost souls, together with the sinister hr music makes a memorable atmosphere.

contrary to most here, i like berserk maps. there's little ammo so the fist seems the choice. but its damage is indeed badly random, it's frustrating to kill a demon in one punch and next, an imp which has less than half the demon's health takes 3 or 4 punches? bah. i left the souls behind, proceeded to the east wing. picked up the yellow key, and a baron and a group of demons and imps warped in. rip and tear, i said. but a stupid imp that blocked my way took 3 punches to die, so i left the map limping on my last 2 hp. there's again a baron in the exit room, not stuck like in e2m2, but also pointless.

[dobu gabu maru]

Sui Generis said:

I found the secret exit, however I will play the secret level tomorrow, once I have more time. (although Dobu's comments suggest I may wish I hadn't! I will see...)

I'm always interested in peoples' opinions on maps I find divisive, just to make sure I'm not fretting over nothing. Capellan's review should prove to be enlightening if nothing else.

[Magnusblitz]

E2M9: Blackout
100% kills, 3/3 secrets

Well, I for one really liked it. It's a good demonstration of how lighting can affect Doom gameplay - I certainly find myself playing much more carefully and judiciously. Barons especially become more dangerous because their faster projectiles are more difficult to dodge if you don't see their windup... of course, the sergeants are still the most dangerous as well. FWIW, I'm playing on 1.00 brightness in ZDoom, not sure how that compares to other ports/settings. Felt a bit of eyestrain afterwards, but I have pretty good eyesight (and playing on 1920x1080 resolution probably helps too).

Some good thought to some of the ambushes here... I liked the trip back to the start after the west wing, with the enemies coming down the tunnel and have some rockets to deal with them, especially having the smaller enemies (demons/imps/lost souls) in front with the barons in the back, since you can't see them at first and slowly realize they're there. Same thing happened in the curved corridor of the blue key area too - "oh shit, there's barons in the back!"

All in all it works quite well for me... the music fits well (the off-beat part really helps sell it as a 'creepy' track) and, well, I just like the dark aspect. It's one of those things I liked about Doom 1 that kinda died out (how many lite-amp visors do you ever see these days?) If you ever read the Doom novels, there's one scene (obviously set in the red key maze in E2M6: Halls of the Damned) where Fly and Arlene need to take out a baron in the darkness, but only Fly can fire the rocket launcher and only Arlene can use the lite-amp goggles, so Fly's firing blind in the darkness trying to kill the baron with his five last rockets and... well, I liked it, fuck you. But I digress...

Ammo is certainly a bit scarce, though, as there were a couple places where I found myself down to fists. I found the berserk pack completely by mistake (dropped down onto it from the rocket launcher), but unlike dobu I found the plasma gun no problem (it's not in a secret, but a fair amount of the ammo is). Definitely gotta check those corners for ammo and health, though... very easy to miss ammo, and the level is already a bit thin on it. Some might say that the 'darkness' theme is enough, no need to also throw ammo starvation in the mix, but I think it helps punch up the carefulness needed - darkness isn't as much of a threat if you can just spray'n'pray plasma everywhere. The end ambush might be a bit bullshit/impossible if you haven't found some of the secret plasma ammo, though.

In the end, I really enjoyed this map. Good execution on a good idea.

[Capellan]

e2m9
I must start with another complaint. Not about how dark the level is. That's clearly the gimmick of the map, for all it gets a bit tiresome. My complaint is that, depending on which way you go first after the red door, one of the secrets can be completely unmarked by the time you reach it. Not cool, cannonball. Especially since it's a linedef that not even random wall-humping is likely to trigger.

Other than that, this is a pretty nice map overall, though I think I would have found it much less fun on pistol start. There's a lot of meat to slog through here and the ability to switch to rockets and plasma to clear it faster was very welcome.

The map's looks aren't really a focus, since it's mostly too dark to make much out, but the visuals are pretty good now I have wandered around it in DB2. It has a lot more 'base' type textures than I realised: my impression as I played it was very much of a Hellish cavern.

[cannonball]

E2M5 - "Tactical Command"
So this map, it is a lot tougher than previous maps, possibly the hardest map so far.
The main section is probably the toughest with the central area representing the meat of the map. I have to agree it is too symmetrical though, at least the combat is decent with threats coming from all directions. The baron release is rather crap though as they are stuck in the room with the switch which lowers the yellow key.
The map has 3 sections, one which is main area which is E2 style, this is backed up by the cyberdemon boss and the plasma gun as the top weapon of the area. The E1 section where the main end battle is against a horde of barons and the top weapon is the rocket launcher and the E3 section where you get a mastermind and the BFG. Some throwbacks to the original doom are seen here, well an attempt at least.
The E1 section is fine to be honest, though the final fight isn't hard enough. The E2 section has issues but plays fine. The E3 section though doesn't feel organic enough in the rockier areas and the gameplay kind of sucks with the layout.

Overall this map presents a step up in difficulty which will be nice for some. Certainly a lot could be altered though to give a better experience.

E2M9 - "Blackout"
I used pr-boom plus when playing, so the light levels are low but not impossible to see. Ammo is tight on this one so punching might be required at times. Again there is some questionable baron placement at times. I also have to admit that secret switch is stupidly placed too :P
That said I think there are some really nasty traps in this one at times, I skipped the initial central area ambush and went for the red key, this meant I dealt with two waves of enemies later which is easier on the ammo front as infighting takes its usual path. One good area of baron usage is the end where you flanked from front and behind on a staircase which can lead to a very tense ending with rockets and plasma dwindling and nowhere to run from the barons.
At least the secret map this time had a gimmick :)

[TheOrganGrinder]

E2M5: Tactical Command

Definitely a step up in difficulty; I died a lot here, though most of that was down to some of the nastier close-quarter ambushes and the cyberdemon at the end. Visually it's a nice varied map, though as a matter of personal taste the hub-style setup with three discrete and separate areas connected only by very strongly announced teleporters isn't as much to my taste as a more organic and interconnected map... at least, not when the theme of the map doesn't suggest a staging area for that kind of action. The red key section feels like a teaser for episode 3 to come, while the blue key section harkens back to the familiar corridors of episode 1 and provides some viciously claustrophobic action. The central arena suffers a bit, I think, from Doom's limited bestiary and too many hitscanners; more projectile-firing monsters would encourage a "who dares, wins" approach and keep the action moving, but Doom's bestiary lacks the best contenders for that role.

I did like the setup with secret switches numbered to indicate progression towards not-especially-secret exit to E2M9; the player knows it's there, it's opening to the way to it that's the challenge.

EDIT: It probably doesn't help my impression of this map that it uses one of the Requiem tracks I don't really care for, and if I had any sense I'd have turned off the music before getting too stuck into it. Oh well.

[Capellan]

e2m6
I liked the spider mastermind reveal in this map. Admittedly the spider itself is no more dangerous than the one on e2m3 (in fact I shotgunned it to death since I knew there were many shells on around on the map). However (a) this one is accompanied by a host of lesser – but more mobile – enemies, which makes the initial onslaught much more exciting, and (b) this reveal also transforms the layout of the map into a much more open space, so it is visually dynamic.

I also really liked the use of radsuits as a tactical element of gameplay: rather than simply letting you traverse an area, they give you the freedom to dodge without danger. You can play a large chunk of the map without using them (the yellow key pickup is the only extended paddling in blood you are required to do), but they sure to do ease some of the encounters.

The level looks good – cannonball uses combinations of textures that I probably wouldn't think to try, and makes them work – and the layout does a pretty good job of disguising that the rather linear progression of blue key, red key, yellow key, exit.

If I was going to call out a flaw with the map it would be the exit cacos. Given all the space you now have, there simply aren't enough of them to be any kind of threat. I'd say you needed 2-3 times as may, with the extra ones coming into the map through teleports (into sectors 75 & 77, say). Might want a few more boxes of bullets around to compensate, but at least it wouldn't be quite so simple a case of 'lob 8-10 rockets in the same direction' to wrap things up.

[scifista42]

E2M9 - "Blackout"

(I've played the map from pistol start. And used "resurrect" cheat after each death.)

This map finally comes with its own unique traits: Firstly, darkness, secondly, darker atmosphere, and finally, while the layout was still pretty generic, at least it felt more "organic" than the previous maps, and it also featured less symmetry. Difficulty was high and all good. The end ambush was rather easily skippable again, though, and having to rocket-spam through a monster-flooded corridor right before getting to the red key was another weak moment. Still, I think it's a slightly above-average map simply because it's not bad and it's not so much same-y looking like cannonball's other maps in this mapset.

[Cynical]

SteveD said:

^^^True dat, and this is one of the reasons I enjoy Ultimate Doom -- no Archies. It does mean that the path to a hard UDoom map implies lots of hitscanners, along with Caco swarms and traps that really mob the player, and being stingy on health. Oh, and using Cybs as normal enemies helps, too.

But Arch-Viles technically are hitscanners ;-)

[scifista42]

Cynical said:

But Arch-Viles technically are hitscanners ;-)

No, they are Line-Of-Sight-scanners. Monsters between the Archvile and its target are not scanned. :)

[Capellan]

cannonball said:
I used pr-boom plus when playing, so the light levels are low but not impossible to see.

So is PrBoom+ generally 'brighter' than other ports? I generally use it with gamma correction 1. I would expect your monitor and its settings would also have a big impact ...

[Steve D]

Cynical said:

But Arch-Viles technically are hitscanners ;-)

Don't be messin' with my mind, Cynical. ;D

[Steve D]

dobu gabu maru said:

Sometimes Steve I wonder if you're my foil.

Well, when my daddy asked me one day what the hell I was gonna do with my life, I said . . . ;)

[Sui Generis]

E2M9 - "Blackout"
First thoughts on the secret map; it was atmospheric. It was interesting how much of a difference low-light levels make to Doom gameplay, instead of the usual Doom guy as missile gameplay I'm used to, you have to be far more careful. The danger each monster poses is significantly increased, particularly the sergeants and spectres. Especially the spectres. I started with 200/200 and had already lost 50/50 of this mostly due to the spectres in the big open room catching me out! Magnus' comments about the barons apply too.

I think there is a very fine balance between the darkness being creepy, or being frustrating, and unfortunately I think some of the sergeants come close to that. Without being able to spot sergeants about to fire, you don't know to go to cover and have too take the hit. I also agree the square-grid trap room in the bottom-left is inordinately dangerous. Really this would be difficult enough to escape significant harm in normal light conditions, so in darkness with teleporting sergeants appearing on all sides, I don't think it's reasonable if the player is expected to stay in the middle. I'd also say that the spectres in the monster corridor when you return to the start after obtaining the red key, make rocketing really really dangerous! I fired off a couple of rockets then was shocked to hear a spectre bite to my side - what sheer luck I didn't hit it.

Overall, I think this style of map is very unusual and refreshing to see, and perhaps also an acquired taste. I think for gameplay balance and possibly atmosphere, it might be better with more contrasting lighting, so the occasional wall light revealing slices of the darkness and giving players a little more of a clue that danger is approaching, hunting them down!

I only found two of the three secrets though (in sector 58 near the start and sector 399 near the end. The marble panel next to it looked like something should open it). Perhaps I fell prey to the issue Capellan mentioned?

Capellan said:

So is PrBoom+ generally 'brighter' than other ports? I generally use it with gamma correction 1. I would expect your monitor and its settings would also have a big impact ...

I also played in PrBoom+ software renderer, using gamma correction 0. It was playable and I was more or less able to see monsters provided they were close.

E2M6 - "Haunted Cellars"
This map has a similar, not very inspired layout as E1M5 had. Sure it's E2 theme and there's more and bigger monsters, but fundamentally it's still a big square doughnut with side quests and a substantive battle in the middle. I didn't really use many of the radsuits for tactical purposes, as Capellan did, as I never know initially how many I will need, so I tend to stockpile them. I guess the side areas are basically ok in their own right, and the fact the Cyb initially teleports away on first sight is a good way of adding to the danger it poses. It's still audible, but it's location unknown, which I thought was clever. I'll agree with Capellan on the mastermind and the final cacos, some teleporting in behind would perhaps improve the fight with them.

I don't have a huge amount to say about this level, it looks ok, it's gameplay is ok, but it's layout is disappointing and dull in my view, making the level blander and less memorable.

[mouldy]

E2M9 - "Blackout"
http://www.mediafire.com/download/tbltx9j8hbw3nn8/concern-e2m9-mouldy.lmp

Spooky fumblings in the dark. A cool concept and very nicely realised. I was hoping that there would be a switch somewhere to turn at least some lights on, just to see a nice bit of harsh contrast, but theres always just enough light to find your way around (in this source port at least). Darkness really helps to add danger to the old doom monsters as well. I had to plink away at that small army of barons at the end, which was a bit of a grind. Maybe I should have saved some rockets and cells. Ah well. Good atmospheric map, thank christ a cyberdemon didn't appear.

E2M6 - "Haunted Cellars"
http://www.mediafire.com/download/9wd09khhbbwyyhe/concern-e2m6-mouldy.lmp

What a monumental pain in the arse this map is from pistol start. Its a difficulty spike and a half, as you are thrown into a hopeless situation with a mountain of walking and flying beef hounding you while you have nothing to hit back with, and even the floor wants to kill you. The only chance I had was to laboriously learn the map by hacking away at barons with peashooters, and then by trial and error figure out exactly where I needed to run to from the start while ignoring all the monsters. Now, there is of course a time and a place for maps like this, and I knew it would be coming, I just didn't expect it so soon, especially after the last few have been relatively easygoing. I think there is a point where challenge becomes a chore, and that point is shotgunning barons to death. Maybe the idea is to leave them alive until the bosses are let loose to infight. Dunno, but I didn't enjoy this map so much. By the end I was on 4% health, I'd killed everything, and still I had to flip a coin to see if I could survive crossing the damaging floor to the exit. Not a very friendly map.

[Sui Generis]

mouldy said:

By the end I was on 4% health, I'd killed everything, and still I had to flip a coin to see if I could survive crossing the damaging floor to the exit. Not a very friendly map.

Were you aware that the slime damage pulse is predictable? When there is a long walkway or running space near the slime, it is possible to start running and view the rhythm of your gun, then immediately change direction and dash across as soon as the peak of the weapon bob passes.

[Memfis]

Uhh. Is anyone actually able to use that? I tried it a bit and I find it pretty damn hard to see when the weapon is at its highest while it's constantly moving around in all directions. Bonus difficulty points if the floor height changes while you're running...

[mouldy]

Sui Generis said:

Were you aware that the slime damage pulse is predictable? When there is a long walkway or running space near the slime, it is possible to start running and view the rhythm of your gun, then immediately change direction and dash across as soon as the peak of the weapon bob passes.

Yeah i'd heard about that, but if it isn't as straightforward as strafe-running or chaingun tapping i tend not to bother learning these technical exploits.

[dobu gabu maru]

Capellan said:

So is PrBoom+ generally 'brighter' than other ports?

I believe so. I've heard of the people that play GZDoomPrBoom+ complain about the software darkness at least.

E2M6: Right after a relatively "poor" map in the dark, we have an excellent map in the dark. The start is pretty vicious due to the fact that specters clog the hallways and you’re not really sure where ammo or weapons are, but once you grab the berserk it becomes a lot more manageable. Like E1M6, the map is built around a large ring with locked doors lining its walls, but its a lot more interesting due to the nukage and the heavy-set enemies wandering its corridors. Most of them can be dealt with once you unlock the big crusher room (I kinda wish the entire floor was damaging so it wasn’t so abusable). The YK trap is pretty good, punishing you if you forget to grab a radsuit beforehand, and the finale afterwards is sublime (I really like the trick where you go to open a door and it just opens everything around you). You can hide from the final fight as long as you start some infighting, but I always find it more invigorating to try and weave between the pillars and survive. A moody setting, plentiful texture use, relentless gameplay, and a frantically fun finale come together to form my favorite map of the episode.

[Sui Generis]

Memfis said:

Uhh. Is anyone actually able to use that? I tried it a bit and I find it pretty damn hard to see when the weapon is at its highest while it's constantly moving around in all directions. Bonus difficulty points if the floor height changes while you're running...

Strange, you're playing with PrBoom+ right? Personally I don't find it difficult to see; if you note the U-shaped bob that the weapon traces when running, you will see the damage pulse occurs when the weapon reaches it's furthest point to the left or right of the centre. This is also the highest point of the bob.

[Magnusblitz]

E2M6: Haunted Cellars
100% kills, 3/3 secrets

Hmm, not a fan of this one. I do agree with Capellan about liking the layout (it helps hide the linearity of the key grabbing) and the SMM trap is pretty good, especially how it opens up the middle of the map. I'm a bit less enthused with the radsuit/blood here, since all the radsuits are just stocked at the beginning and so it becomes a bit of a chore to run back and grab one when I want one (or need one, as the yellow key proved).

The main problem is what mouldy points out - there's just wayyy too much monster beef here for a pistol start. Walk forward, two barons. Go into the blue key area, more barons. Grab the key, another two barons. And all this is with the shotgun and maybe the secret chaingun. I for one was very glad to come across the 'abuseable' crusher room and finally crush all those bastards to slimy stains without need to waste ammo. I didn't have as hard a time with it as mouldy did, but I didn't exactly have fun, either. At least I proved correct in leaving the cyberdemon untouched until the finale.