So why aren't you mapping?

[DooM_RO]

Job said:

My standards are way too high, so my mapping moves at a glacial pace.

I can relate

[40oz]

Marnetmar said:

Mapper's block and the fact that I don't really know how to utilize monsters that well. Anyone know of a guide for monster placement?

I could assist you with that if you're interested. It's tricky to give any short "one size fits all" general rules. If you show me a map you're working on and talk about some design goals you have for your map(s) I could help you get the kinda gameplay that would work best for it.

I used to have a lot of trouble with that as well, I spent a year talking about it with people here, studying differently styled maps, evaluating positive and negative reviews for different maps, etc. I've got a pretty good understanding of effective thing placement.

zap610 said:

As lame as my answer is I'll post it anyway; I feel kinda hopeless with it.

I've found sometimes that if you continue mapping, spending a few hours a day, you can maintain a consistent level of quality that gives a good positive feeling that often keeps ideas flowing, and an enthusiastic approach to being able to turn anything into something special. But if you get away from it for a while, those positive feelings and flowing ideas takes a while to start rolling in again, because your mind hasn't had to think about it for so long. Being good at mapping kinda takes a profound level of thought to tap into the part of the brain that really helps you feel confident and optimistic about what you're doing.

I just had a busy work week and have only gotten like 2 hours of mapping time in the last 10 days. The sector count on the last map I've been working on is kinda of intimidating at the moment and I'm a bit scared to touch it since my mind has been preoccupied with other things.

[Xaser]

Hmm, somewhat relevant to Marn+40oz's topic, I saw this thread title and realized I have something like 6 or 7 maps in the "structurally complete but needs thing placement" stage, which is highly unfortunate.

Thing for me is it's distinct from Marn's situation in that I (think I) can technically place monsters n' things well -- the trouble is that I don't have any fun doing so. I'm really not sure what to do to get un-stuck since my entire mapping motivational cycle down to "do it when you want to, don't if you don't." So I don't. D:

[LittleInferno]

I draw like 12 lines and go pretty much like "THIS IS BORING" and stop.

[AD_79]

Xaser said:

Thing for me is it's distinct from Marn's situation in that I (think I) can technically place monsters n' things well -- the trouble is that I don't have any fun doing so.

Yeah, I'll be honest, thing placement is the part of mapping I enjoy the least. I like making map layouts, I like turning them into functioning maps, but when I get to things I just sort of shut down.

[scifista42]

My least favorite part of mapping is building new parts of a layout, because I rarely have good ideas for it. My favorite part of mapping is tweaking little things (rooms, heights, textures, details, thing placement), as long as the entire map is not yet finished - I still lack the ability to do it efficiently, though. When I manage to get the map into a playable finished state, I'm tired of it already and want to release it ASAP instead of polishing - which I realize is not very good.

[Reisal]

Was working on my house DM map and I suddenly stopped, I guess it was motivation. I didn't just start it, I was like a bit more than half done on it.

[Velvetic]

I'm working on 4 projects all by myself, it's already hard doing 1, but 3 of them doesn't require too much time.

Here are them:

Doom II - Lifeless Satellites (a 3 map boom wad)
Doom II - Unnamed ZDoom Project (this will take a long time to be finished)
Strife - Name: For Lack of a Better Revolution (just 1 map for ZDoom, this will be quite an easy task)
Doom 64 - The Ascending Pendulum (already completed 3 out of 8 maps)

I keep bouncing back and forth between projects, i also limited myself to work on only 4 projects, and i plan to release at least 2 of them this year.

[Capellan]

AD_79 said:

Yeah, I'll be honest, thing placement is the part of mapping I enjoy the least. I like making map layouts, I like turning them into functioning maps, but when I get to things I just sort of shut down.

Have you tried placing Things as you go? I find that breaking up the task can sometimes help. It also makes me think more about what items and monsters go where as I'm mapping, which can be useful in assisting flow and gameplay.

[Csonicgo]

40oz said:

Could it be:

So why aren't you mapping, right now?

Because I hate map editors. They're too stuck up on data structures. All I want to do is draw lines like any sensible vector graphics or AutoCAD program.

"3D Modes" in editors are nowhere close to what I see in game. Scale and aspect is off. I can't judge distances or walking times since the camera is a fast moving no-clipping mess. and since most editors never paint floors or let me "flip" the map from top-down to bottom-up, I only get half the information.

All I want to do is draw. however in Doom mapping, I have to go through each individual line and tweak, align, set properties, peg, unpeg, etc. etc - that I just don't bother. No default prefabs also make this a chore. Can I upload/download them? Why isn't there a repository for them if I can do that?

I'd love to be able to map out what's in my head - yet I can't do that, because the editors are still user hostile even with documentation. Do you know what a "Child sector" is? Should I know? I don't know. And I don't care.

I've been tinkering with editors since DEU. All of them sucked. I've made many maps but I'm not releasing them because I'll find something that'll frustrate me with doom editing (usually a quirk in an editor) and I'll ragequit the damned thing.

[AD_79]

Capellan said:

Have you tried placing Things as you go? I find that breaking up the task can sometimes help. It also makes me think more about what items and monsters go where as I'm mapping, which can be useful in assisting flow and gameplay.

Hmm, no, I haven't tried this yet, as my process of mapping in stages (layout, texturing, functionality, things, final detailing) prevents this. I'll give it a go though.

[Capellan]

AD_79 said:

Hmm, no, I haven't tried this yet, as my process of mapping in stages (layout, texturing, functionality, things, final detailing) prevents this. I'll give it a go though.

It's not guaranteed to help (especially since it is easy to get caught up in the sexy sexy sectors and textures and triggers oh my, and before you know it you've got heaps of empty rooms to fill), but I know that I have the same "ugh, thing placement" reaction when I leave the items to the end, so I try to at least start popping down a few things as I go: "This is where the cacoswarm goes.", "Here's the jump to the plasma gun - I should put a trap on that. Let's have a closet of imps.", "This is a great place to box the player in with some demons, so let's get some in there." and so on.

[Tango]

Marnetmar said:

Mapper's block and the fact that I don't really know how to utilize monsters that well. Anyone know of a guide for monster placement?

a few years ago when I tried picking up mapping again after an extended break, I found myself feeling the same way... I don't know if this will help you but I just started to try using myself more as a means to judge what is good monster placement. that statement sounds pretty silly but... I sometimes just kind of trail and error till I get something that feels challenging and fun when I play it. I don't think that always translates well into others enjoying it necessarily, but if you find it fun, chances are someone else will

[40oz]

LittleInferno said:

I draw like 12 lines and go pretty much like "THIS IS BORING" and stop.

I think that's how mapping is for my wife. Its the end result that is worth the trouble. The process isn't all that exciting, but the anticipation of reading peoples comments and watching demos/videos keeps the motivation level up. Often you have to release something to know that feeling you're working toward. My first map was a speedmap if that's any indication. I just plopped some sectors, threw in some monsters, and stuck an exit after I believed the map had a considerable length to it. My mapping body of work snowballed from there.

Maybe a discouraging feeling in mapping is the uncertainty that people wont even bother playing it. That's probably a major reason why community projects and speedmapping sessions attract so many new mappers. I rarely see a wads and mods thread that doesn't get at least one response, though I wonder if there could be a safer way to ascertain that people will play what you make if you dont already have a reputable name in the community.

[Jaxxoon R]

Some days you just don't feel like wrangling lines, you know?

[Fletcher`]

Why am I not mapping? I rediscovered Starbound.

[Csonicgo]

I tried to pick it back up again only to release why I didn't like it, ever: I can't visualize the 2D to 3D space unless I see then simultaneously. The result is a huge, flat "maze" with missing textures.

[Deleted_Account]

Some days when I'm mapping I feel like it's all been done before, and done better.

[cs99cjb]

Piper Maru said:

Some days when I'm mapping I feel like it's all been done before, and done better.

Realistically, that's true of every endeavour you'll ever undertake. It's only since the advent of the Internet that we have our noses rubbed in it though.

[ella guro]

some of it for is fear that stuff i want to do might not be well-received because i prefer stuff on the puzzley/atmospheric/strange end (i imagine hypothetical "this is boring weird bad 94 garbage" /idgames comments), some of it is just fear of doing something really crappy or not up to my standards or i'm afraid people will tear me apart for having map errors like misaligned textures/whatever.

[cq75]

I'm doing coding work which is a priority, I haven't done much mapping. However, as far as mapping goes as of a while ago:

Single Player / Coop: Very, very slow for me to make, I'm trying to get away from extreme difficulty as the main draw of the maps, I think I'd like to put more exploration and nonlinearity in. I have a few things I started a while back for non-Doom 2 maps.

Duel: I've made probably 50 of these over the years, I'm out of ideas for right now.

DM: I could do more DM work again, but I'd probably want to do it with a different theme, maybe with a different weapon set (there's some weapon mods out there that might be fun to experiment with)

CTF: To be honest I'm not sure what people want

[ducon]

Because I’m playing.

[Dragonsbrethren]

I am mapping.

[Memfis]

The knowledge that I can't have more than one map in a wad is highly discouraging.

[Diamhea]

I can't figure the interface out. I used to make UT99 maps ages and ages ago, though

[nxGangrel]

I would be the first one. In a nutshell, I have enough energy and patience to make a megawad, and the ideas, but because of all the crap I do on a daily basis I don't really have the time. And when I have the time I'm on a different computer...
I'm planning, however, on working on a megawad this year when I've got the time.

So 40oz, if you want to collab or something, I would love to. Especially because you're a better mapper than I. And as I said, I'm working on (to my knowledge)new material.

[Superluigieth1]

Mappers block and laziness.

[joe-ilya]

I'm too busy mapping.

[TimeOfDeath]

Diamhea said:

I can't figure the interface out. I used to make UT99 maps ages and ages ago, though

This was my problem for a while too. Eventually I used Dr. Sleep's doom builder manual (for DB1) to make that demo map and slowly got the hang of it.

[SYS]

AD_79 said:

Yeah, I'll be honest, thing placement is the part of mapping I enjoy the least. I like making map layouts, I like turning them into functioning maps, but when I get to things I just sort of shut down.

Thing placement is the best part. Before I knew how to do anything else in a map editor I'd fill existing maps with monsters. Specifically a deathmatch map mall.wad I think it was. Turned it into a slaughter map. I think my love of stuffing enemies all over the place came from plutonia map32.

Then I figured out how to create sectors. So I made a giant square room, filled it with weapons, ammo and two cyberdemons. It was a shit map, but I easily amused myself being able to continuously strafe circle around them in a big open space.

Fumbling through wad author I figured out sector properties and texturing linedefs. Manipulating vertexes. Still couldn't figure out sector tags, but I could join sectors together and make a door.

I don't know why I've gone into a tangent into first mapping experiences. That seems like a whole different thread topic. I find my biggest problem with mapping is creating a layout and then texturing it in a way I think looks good.

I can do green marble hell maps all day long. But as soon as I try any other theme I get frustrated with texturing. Especially tek bases. I feel like textures all clash with each other from room to room and nothing looks right. Even with utilizing the trusty SUPPORT transition textures something always looks off.

/brain fart