The DWmegawad Club plays: Doom 2 Reloaded

[Havoc Crow]

MAP07: Witch Space

...
This is literally Dead Simple.
No, really. This level is literally nothing more than the original Dead Simple, except retextured. Expecting a Warrens-style twist? Sorry, no. The only twist here is the final Arch-Vile ambush... which only happens if you personally choose to trigger it instead of entering the exit. Incidentally, the presence of Arch-Viles increases the chances of making the level unwinnable after you kill all Arachnotrons too many times.

Seriously. Dead Simple clones are usually considered lazy mapping, but a map which is literally a copy of Dead Simple? Laziness Galaxy.

[Memfis]

It was a different time back then... I read old topics on this forum sometimes and I think Dead Simple clone bashing started only in 2010-2011 or so:
http://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mods/49747-map-07-dead-simple/
http://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mods/57069-why-does-every-wad-seem-to-copy-doom-ii-level-7/

In contrast, in 2007 Tormentor667 came up with an idea of a megawad made of nothing but Map07 remakes and many liked it, can you believe that? -> http://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mods/41312-dead-simple-megawad-project-interested/

[scifista42]

lazy lazy lazy lazy laziness

I'm oriented on results more than effort, I think, so I don't mind "laziness" itself. I also don't think this map is lazily designed, it's actually based around a simple idea (the author might have considered it brilliantly elegant, and I'd admit that there's something to it) and well polished for the sake of making the concept work (distinctly altered structure + improved clean visuals). Mainly, as I said, I felt that I shouldn't take the map too seriously. That's probably why I'm OK with the map.

[yakfak]

me too, but at the same time, when you get to the incredible gimmick levels later on in this set, you'll wonder what scenario the author could have dreamed up based on the death triggers...

[SyntherAugustus]

Level 07

Dead Simple - The Archviling!

It looked pretty for what it was though. And yes the minisphere mod shows its opness here.

[Sp00kyFox]

@BlackFish
which mods do you use?

also participating this time, already played until map 7. it's a nice mapset so far. I also noticed that some of the difficulty comes from the height variations (no mouselook), which was kinda annoying. and good to see that I'm not only having problems finding the secrets but they're worth it. I played with continous saves but pistol start is probably a better choice gameplay-wise. especially with secrets you have such a powerful arsenal, so even on UV it get's pretty easy.

[scifista42]

Map08 - “Waste Processing”

I don't remember this map in the slightest, I've possibly never played it - I think I've played D2Reload maps after MAP06 mostly just randomly. Anyway, this map was once again too straightforward, but once again appealing by its semi-realism and new types of locations within the continuing techbase theme, which I keep enjoying. Impressive usage of height variation that might even evoke fear of heights, despite knowing that you don't take falling damage in Doom - so realistic it is! Presence of damaging nukage down on the floor helps to increase this effect, I believe. The last room with a bridge reminded me of the end of MAP05: Waste Tunnels, and the previous metallic + nukage areas seemed similar to EnPro Plant from Doom 3 - I wonder if it's just in my mind, or if they were actually inspired by / referenced these areas. Enjoyable journey.

[Memfis]

08 - boring start, where ssg? Died after ~40 monsters and didn't retry.

[Capellan]

map08
Rough opening for pistol starters: single shotgun a baron, or jump into nukage and hope there’s a way out of it somewhere (there is, as it turns out).
The common tropes of the set recur here: frequent use of significant verticality (often in inconvenient ways - that spiral staircase), leaping between high places, and large areas of monotextured, orthogonal, single light level sectors. There are also some more detailed and varied parts, but I do feel like in big rooms the author just doesn’t really bother. Try ‘find and replace’ mode for W_METAL1 and you’ll see what I mean.
Okay, but bland.

[scifista42]

IMO, this megawad is best to be played continuously, because it feels like a continuous adventure, and also to prevent frustration from limited weaponry on pistol starts. Which is the author's fault, maybe, but the megawad is already done and criticizing it won't be productive, that's why I chose the way to best enjoy it.

[SyntherAugustus]

Sp00kyFox said:

@BlackFish
which mods do you use?

Smooth Doom
Sound Caulking (PSX version used in videos)
Some heavily modified version of my BTSX Zdoom HUD. Used this as a base
This xhair pack
Droplets blood mod
Minisphere
Stackable green armor and green invulrn colormap

It changes per megawad. For example the most I have going on with Valiant is simply the rest of the stomper weapons.

[Capellan]

scifista42 said:

the megawad is already done and criticizing it won't be productive

Eh, by that logic there's no point in having the DWMC at all. Or in fact in criticising any creative work: "well, the film is already made, so there's no point in mentioning the lousy acting, ham-handed script and laughable special effects".

[NuMetalManiak]

I thought the point of this was to sit down, play a map each day, and have a drink while at it?

MAP08 Waste Processing

probably my favorite music track from the old D2RMUS. it's dark gray everywhere with linearity. the one delayed teleporter ambush near the northeast part of the map sucks, and I actually waited for them to spawn in this time. the big area to the northwest was most exciting, but it's not hard as long as you keep running down the corridors killing hitscanners first. the secret that winds up at the BFG triggers several enemies, some of which teleport back to the exit, including the archie which seems to be in a problematic place. still no major problems. kinda silly how the exit trigger is just before that visible switch.

[mouldy]

Map07 - “Witch Space”

hmm yeah. I expect everyone has said all that needs saying, but I shall add my own personal wtf at this map. I guess its a spit in the eye for anyone who complains about dead simple clones.

Not sure how wise it is adding archviles though...

[Sui Generis]

Map07 - “Witch Space”
You really have to look for secrets on this level; not because they're necessary to complete the level (quite the opposite in fact) but because they are the only thing that stops this map being a complete carbon copy of Dead Simple. Really, I know that every Doom 2 Map07 has included a sequential mancs then arachnotrons arena battle of some form, but few of them have replicated the exact arena layout so closely. Other maps at least try to maintain a pretence of being different, even if the underlying principle is the same. I described some of the more corridor-ish early maps as creatively bankrupt in parts, and while I think that is unkind, this map reinforces my conviction in spades.

I will say however that the archie teleport-in is an original twist that deserves respect. It should be compulsory rather than optional, although the possibility of multiple tag 667 activations as memfis mentioned is problematic. Perhaps it could be worked around by means of a lift lowering switch tagged 667 which would affect the raising sector?

[Capellan]

Yeah the lift idea was the first AV fix that occurred to me.

But I'll have you know that my last map07 did Trons THEN Mancs. So innovative :-)

[Sui Generis]

Capellan said:

But I'll have you know that my last map07 did Trons THEN Mancs. So innovative :-)

Damnit, you stole my idea I just had when writing that post too :P

I guess all this shows that Map07s generally don't get much thought - they're treated as just another map in a megawad (because that's the only time they're every deployed - you don't see many single map wads on map 7) so little thought in the community has been given to using the slot's special triggers creatively.

[Capellan]

Community Chest 4 did a quite unusual map07 actually. Lots of annoying high chaingunners ... but def not just Dead Simple v6547.

[Magnusblitz]

scifista42 said:

IMO, this megawad is best to be played continuously, because it feels like a continuous adventure, and also to prevent frustration from limited weaponry on pistol starts.

While obviously the levels flow from one to the other, I've found it quite well balanced for pistol starts, in that it's challenging but easily do-able, especially since it forces the player to look for secrets (which tend to be rather strong). If anything, the strong secrets are a case against playing continuous, though some don't make sense otherwise (such as the BFG secret at the end of this level)

MAP08: Waste Processing
99% kills, 3/4 secrets

Well, people keep saying this WAD will get better, but this feels like a bit of a step backwards - even more linear and corridor-y than the last few maps, and pretty bland for the most part too (METAL everywhere, some slime, some SUPPORT2/light doorways, and that's about it). Didn't really enjoy the last room, I'm usually not a fan of having tons of enemies which can snipe me and then having my movement restricted by being stuck on skinny walkways.

[Havoc Crow]

MAP08: Waste Processing

This might be the first map in this set that I truly enjoyed. It's entirely linear, without any keys even, but it doesn't feel like a series of one-entrance-one-exit rooms. The architecture is built around the striking concept of a metal mammoth, a huge tomb of steel where the tiny player weaves in and out copious holes like a rat. One memorable moment comes about halfway through, where you need to jump down out of a room onto a walkway below you--this moment makes you feel truly lost within the rectangular entrails of this towering structure, and somewhat resembles Half-Life's "Blast Pit" level.
The final room, a tough combat sequence where you need to cope with cross-fire from several revenants, a hell knight which refuses to come out of hiding and expose itself to rockets, entirely unexpected imp and cacodemon snipers and others, is well-designed, and while it might kill you a few times it never feels unfair or cheap. As icing on the cake, there's the final optional megasphere secret which summons a monstrous committee to give you their congratulations and missiles.
That was fun.

[cannonball]

Map08 - “Waste Processing”
Man even with the ssg secret this was a slog, not enjoyable at all to be honest. The BFG secret at the end helped but in the end, I could only proceed at a snails pace. I do appreciate the sense of place, clearly an underground waste facility, though a little more texture variation could have been nice.
In the end the map plays poorly for pistol starters, though continuous would probably be more entertaining.

[scifista42]

Capellan said:

scifista42 said:
IMO, this megawad is best to be played continuously, because it feels like a continuous adventure, and also to prevent frustration from limited weaponry on pistol starts. Which is the author's fault, maybe, but the megawad is already done and criticizing it won't be productive, that's why I chose the way to best enjoy it.

Eh, by that logic there's no point in having the DWMC at all. Or in fact in criticising any creative work: "well, the film is already made, so there's no point in mentioning the lousy acting, ham-handed script and laughable special effects".

That's not how I've meant it. You're certainly right. I've meant that development of the wad is no longer continued, and there won't be any updates based on feedback from this thread.

Looking at the situation from an immediate point of view of my own: "This month, we will be playing D2Reload. It was released in 2009 and its development is no longer continued. From my experience with this megawad, I know that it's more comfortable and enjoyable for me to play D2Reload continuously. Or I can choose the less enjoyable way for myself, for the sake of... What exactly? Wanting to get the 'proper' experience? No, I believe that continuous experience is just as 'proper' in this case. Wanting to punish myself? No. Wanting to inform people about critical observations I can make? Nope. What I actually want is having fun - and this time, I know that a continuous playthrough will help it. OK, it's decided, I'll play continuously."

[TheOrganGrinder]

MAP08: Waste Processing

There's definitely some continuity/evolution of theme here, as we go from the bright, clean techbases of MAP04-06 to dark metal and copious amounts of green slime. There's also a clear continuity of gameplay, as the player is once again compelled to navigate the level along a circuitous route to cross the relatively modest distance between the entrance and exit... but compared to earlier maps in the WAD, the layout here really opens up, with a much higher degree of visual and structural interconnectedness despite the single main route through the level, a bigger picture that's hinted at from the player's opening incomplete vista of the cavernous torus that forms the first half of the level and slowly unfolds as the path winds in and out of the structure at its centre.

I feel as though the slime-filled chamber, criss-crossed by catwalks, that makes up the second half of the map is a missed opportunity to get away from very rectangular rooms, but I can't fault the gameplay here, with a crossfire that's dangerous but never overwhelming and a good use of Doom 2's bestiary. I picked up the BFG/megasphere secret but lost as much as I gained since I don't think I was anticipating quite as fiendish a response to that as I got - that's poor situational awareness and sloppy play on my part, though, so "mission accomplished" as far as the level designer is concerned. :) Overall I think this is possibly the strongest map in the WAD so far.

[Capellan]

scifista42 said:
I've meant that development of the wad is no longer continued, and there won't be any updates based on feedback from this thread.

Sure, but that's true of most of the wads we play here, and it certainly hasn't stopped us criticising stuff before :)

I mean for me personally how it plays in pistol start is kind of irrelevant, because I don't play that way. The rough start was just something I noticed about this map (though in the case it's actually quite clever because it encourages the player to look for other options than fighting and is likely to lead them to the SSG).

[Memfis]

08 revisited - with a little help from Doom Builder I found the SSG secret, which made me able to play the map. And I liked it. It has a good adventure feel that reminds me of other totally linear maps I love (Epic 2 Map18, Estranged Map27) and there are some nicely cruel traps with very limited space (good baron usage!). The exit switch annoyed me a bit though: you don't actually get to press it, which is unsatisfying in a way.

[scifista42]

Capellan said:

Sure, but that's true of most of the wads we play here, and it certainly hasn't stopped us criticising stuff before :)

Criticizing is all great and always possibly useful for the readers, yes, but it was besides the point I was making, which was only about my very momentary justification why I wanted to play continuously. I didn't mean that criticizing was ever generally purposeless, not at all. Only in this particular situation, I decided that it didn't seem purposeful-enough to be worth breaking my habits and preference. And my primary arguments weren't related to "criticizing" at all, anyway. Sorry for inflating this banality.

[SyntherAugustus]

Level 08

Linear and a bit tedious. It was interesting to see the kind of architecture that could be accomplished with very few textures being used. I do wish I found that SSG secret though. I'm glad I found the Plasma and BFG ones!

[VGA]

MAP01: Don't like it.

MAP02: Pretty OK map, but forgettable. I missed the Exit sign at the end and went around the map a couple of times, wtf.

MAP03: OK. I liked the big courtyard fight.

MAP04: I like this semi-realistic techbase/warehouse setting. Although I don't get the purpose of that red lazer thing.

MAP05: Like MAP04, which is good.

MAP06: Good gameplay and that big central chamber with the stairs going around was cool. And then that nice security screen animated texture before the exit was a nice touch. A lot of custom textures being put to good use.

MAP07: A Dead Simple clone. I just spammed rockets and it was over quickly.

MAP08: My favourite map so far! Very atmospheric visuals and music. (I am using that DR2MUS wad with the shitty sound replacements deleted.)

[scifista42]

VGA said:

<MAP04> I don't get the purpose of that red lazer thing.

Transfer of extreme energy that cannot be efficiently converted to electricity. Perhaps it's used to dissipate matter in experimentation chambers, to heat a device that requires extreme temperature for its function, or to lead heat away from an overheating reactor. Or perhaps the tunnel actually creates electricity out of the beam. Either way, it's a cool location for Doomguy to visit.

[yakfak]

map 05: Lockdown

I know I'm behind, but you get burnt out doing a demo AND writing a tune every day! Anyway, I like that most of the action takes place in set pieces and against the mid-tier enemies, for now - good contrast to the previous level which was all about the chaingun commando. Also a really joyous map for secret hunters in general. etc.