The DWmegawad Club plays: Doom 2 Reloaded

[SyntherAugustus]

Squadron 417. Because nostalgia man.

I don't think I'll be doing a full video journal next time. Work appears to be picking up and currently that means a 11 hour day and a 3 hour round trip commute. (!)

[Havoc Crow]

1 Monster
10 Sectors
Congestion 1024
Hellcore

Or are we only allowed one vote? If so, mine would go to Hellcore

[scifista42]

For the next month, I vote against mediocre wads. I'm a bit sick of playing right now, so that I would prefer something beautiful clean looking and exciting to play.

[TheOrganGrinder]

MAP25: Hell's Gate

From a not-entirely-successful experimental level, to a superb one that's classic Doom.

The basic layout is a strong one, with the exit visible but inaccessible from the start, and a central courtyard with various towers and battlements around which a maze of corridors and smaller rooms sprawls. Tucked away in the corners of the maze are three keys necessary to access the exit, though depending on the player's path through the level it's entirely possible to collect all three keys before you even find the place where you need to use them; the layout seems to funnel the player towards the exit, the keyed bars, and the guardian cyberdemon, though, and I feel like the player would have to be deliberately ignoring that natural/hinted-add path to arrive at the locked bars with all three keys already in hand (I just had the blue key at that point). I'm not normally a fan of the "3 Keys 1 Path" setup (I often feel it leads to more opportunities for interesting gameplay and layouts missed than created) but here it really works.

Compared to the steadily-decreasing monster counts of the past few levels this is a busy, crowded map where much of the population is once again given the freedom to roam; Doom's pathfinding code, coupled with corridors that twist back on themselves, doesn't really allow the monsters to make the most of that freedom, but there were a few times where I found a mancubus or a pack of revenants had wandered into an unexpected part of the level. Overall the mix of monsters is good, though I feel the keys themselves weren't as well-guarded as they might have been, and the red key ambush in particular felt underwhelming to me - I was expecting flankers that never came.

Visually... well, it's a green stone castle, so if you don't care for that look then you won't find a lot to like here, but as far as green stone castles go it's beautifully rendered and has enough variety in its side areas to stop things from getting monotonous. The sense of scale and use of space are just about perfect; nowhere felt too open nor cheaply claustrophobic. I could wax lyrical all day about this, but really, it's one of the stars of the WAD for me, so far.

[Jaws In Space]

Base Ganymede

[mouldy]

Map25 - “Hell’s Gate”

This map was hard as balls on pistol start, although that might be down to me choosing the exact wrong route which had zero health and ammo. With nothing to kill with i was just running deeper and deeper into the maze, and there was literally no pick-ups, all I could scrounge was whatever I picked off the dead bodies of the fallen. The first weapon I found was a bfg. So the first half of the map was me crawling on my hands and knees begging for health, armour, ammo, anything. It seemed like all the map wanted to give me was more monsters. Having said all that I enjoyed it in some masochistic way. It was such a non-linear labyrinth I could sense that I might make it as long as I picked the right path. My saviour was a berzerk pack which I found on 5% health. After that I began to find stashes of ammo and health, and things started getting a bit more routine. People sometimes complain about maps starting hard and getting easier, but with some maps that feeling you get of gradually taking control of the map is very satisfying. Anyway by the end i was a superhuman and not even occasional surprise cyberdemons gave me much trouble. Good stuff.

[NuMetalManiak]

A.L.T.
Hellbound
Estranged
Remain III + TNT Renascence + Hell Ground

[Breezeep]

What about Valiant?

[Pirx]

Breezeep said:

What about Valiant?

i'd like valiant, but is it done now? there's a "final" version, but from the thread it seems skillsaw is still tinkering with it.

[Breezeep]

I think he only had to fix a bug related to some locked door in one of his maps.

[Capellan]

map26
Easily my favourite level of the Hell episode so far. It still has a lot of corridor work in it, but eschdoom seems more adept with the metal and stone construction here than the red and green motifs of the previous levels. There are more interesting shapes in the construction and more assured and ambitious use of detail as well.

There are also good uses of monsters, whether it be chaingunner enfilades, or lost souls blocking and harassing you as you’re under fire. There’s also a fun recreation of the cyber vs spider motif from "Gotcha!".

The exit archvile’s a little underwhelming - I think it would have been better to put the exit a bit further away and give him more time to roam - but other than that this was a fine map.

[NuMetalManiak]

MAP26 Acheron

well now this is definitely more like it. a challenging hell map that manages to stay pretty tough, although it's kinda sucky for me to pry a weapon from a zombie. yet another nonlinear layout that follows the three-key rule, with a Gotcha! styled area with the obvious spider vs. cyber setup. pretty good map. another good music track from old D2RMUS complemented this well.

[skillsaw]

Breezeep said:

I think he only had to fix a bug related to some locked door in one of his maps.

Valiant should be finished (for real) this time.

I really hope that saying that doesn't bite me in the ass :(

[AD_79]

I think it's time for Valiant, even though everyone's played it already :P

[Sui Generis]

Map24 - “Necromanteion”
I guess I should thank the author for reminding me that Hell is supposed to be an unpleasant place! I played through trying to keep a sense of atmosphere from the idea that this was an ancient crypt, but I found the flesh tunnel spoilt the mood for me a bit. While I'm not a fan of this level I am at least grateful that it was a labyrinth and not a maze, so at least I'm spared the tedium of having to backtrack from dead-ends. I guess given the concept the gameplay is as about as fun as it could be, excluding the idea of a second monster release behind the player at the end of the level, as suggested previously. Overall though no matter how reasonable the execution, a poor concept is a poor concept. I would not want to play this level again (and that's coming from someone who does replay linear levels which ostensibly have little replay value).

Regarding the secrets, I'm going to lay claim to having found 3/5 secrets, even though after backtracking through the entire level to get the one gargoyle I missed, I then no-clipped to the secret area to save time and tedium. You only live once after all.

Map25 - “Hell’s Gate”
This is a pretty good map, although I can see it being difficult on pistol start if you don't get the SSG for awhile. Early on the starting area is quite dangerous with all the distant chaingunners and revvies to look out for. The layout would appear to be a variant of the 'non-linear key-quest hub'. It works well here I think, as there is a good balance between the complex warren-like corridors and frequent interlinks with the central courtyard. I quickly headed for cover in the warrens and decided to approach it systematically, from one corner to the other. This seems to result in the first cyb being released early. This was fun, but it was quite easy to dodge round into the corridors further on due to said interlinkage. Beyond that it feels like more typical D2R corridor combat, albeit fun enough. I found all keys before reaching the exit so the layout worked well for me. Also I was quite surprised to find all 6 secrets on returning to the level after clearing it out, although the three I found had become superfluous by this point (the invuln especially). Good map overall, but I think it deserves to be played through from pistol start.

[Demon of the Well]

Map 24 -- Necromanteion - 106% Kills / 100% Secrets
Yeah, not surprised about the general reaction to this one, it fails almost all of the main bulletpoints on The List of Things Good Maps Should Have (TM), and it fails them HARD. That it fails them unrepentantly is certainly a point worth considering in this sort of instance, I think; putting a map like this in a WAD like this is certainly a ballsy move if nothing else, not only because it's high-concept to the exclusion of nearly all else, but because it's arguably the purest distillation of the map progression style that defines a lot of the megaWAD's 'normal' maps. ;)

For my part, I agree with mouldy, and indeed he said what I wanted to say in this case so well that for once I'm going to say "I'll be brief about this one" and it's actually going to be true: this map's all about the atmosphere and the headgames, and for that reason alone I feel like it makes a positive contribution to the mapset, as the WAD is normally understated enough in presentation (even during much of the Hell segment, honestly) that a weird departure like this, this far into the overall progression, really resonates. For those few odd ducks interested enough in the map to want to uncover all of its content, it also offers more interesting secret-hunting in the form of the gargoyle-head sidequest, which is noteworthy precisely because it's a continuous map-length endeavor (which in some ways arguably emphasizes some of the many drawbacks of the extremely simplistic layout, granted...) in contrast to the series of brainteaser one-offs that are the mapset's bread and butter.

Very interesting map, and very bold. At the end of the day, I reckon it probably falls into the 'more interesting than fun' category (especially on repeat playthroughs when the mystery of the unknown is gone), but nevertheless I'm glad Eschdoom included it.

Map 25 -- Hell's Gate - 101% Kills / 100% Secrets
This is a pretty enjoyable one, I think, in that understated way that defines so much of this mapset. The setting this time is an expansive marble keep, high up on a mountain and directly above the Necromanteion, according to the flavor text, whose inner ward houses a portal to Hades proper, although it's not as much of a spectacle as one might surmise (I swear D2Reload probably has the least dramatic "main gate/portal" depictions of any major WAD of its age). As far as aesthetics go, most of the things that can be said of the mapset writ large are true here as well: in typical D2Reload fashion, structure and texturing are both fairly spartan, with green marble masonry and carvings predominating, although there is an odd little cameo by those lacquered "cement" tiles that I like so much at one point, over in the red key's wing. Also in typical D2Reload fashion, sharp directional lighting has been implemented with no small degree of panache (especially indoors), and helps to add a lot of depth and mood to what is otherwise a pretty low-key presentation. In some sense, one of the things that's a little disappointing about this Hell episode in general is that it's pretty light on scenic "wow" moments--expansive vistas, wide-angle shots of big imposing structures, things of that nature--and while the map's situation of a lot of gloomy labyrinthine side-areas around a central yard with a collection of towers in its center (the inner ward I mentioned above, essentially) does feel a little different than most of the set's other maps, on a moment-to-moment basis it doesn't come off as a particularly striking setting. Cool music this time though, I likes me some Rich Nagel.

Regardless of how it looks, though, I'd say it plays pretty well, the overall impression being somewhat akin to an infernal/gothic version of 'South Central' from earlier in the WAD, with more (a lot more, actually) in the way of nonlinearity and free exploration at work relative to most other maps in the set, neatly capped off with just a touch of that 'looping layout' angle when all is said and done. There's not much you can do in the central area at the start (especially not from a pistol-start, what with the concentration of roaming and sniping enemies of all shapes and sizes out there initially), so you end up retreating into the periphery from any one of a number of different points, and once there you have a lot of license to circle around in any direction, amassing armament and collecting keys as you go. There are more or less ideal/efficient ways to go about this, naturally, but only particularly unlucky players (ala poor mouldy in this case) will be subject to much in the way of resource austerity, since several iterations of staple weapons (SSG, chaingun, RL) are placed at different locations in an attempt to ensure that you get something to work with before getting hip-deep into the proceedings, and one thing sort of naturally leads to another with how freely the layout flows, kind of like a two-way circuit. A fairly subtle detail that I appreciate about the thing placement in this one is that ammo is quite evenly distributed/balanced between the four ordnance types, encouraging you to put all of the weapons to good use rather than just defaulting to the shotguns for 75% of the time. That being said, this balance is a little less evident if you happen to find many of the secrets, as they are particularly powerful relative to what opposition is offered. A fair bit easier to find than is typical for this WAD, too, I think....the BFG in particular seems like it's practically handed to you.

If I've not talked much about actual encounters it's because few really stand out in this case; incidental combat is the order of the day, although there are a couple of more pronounced monster-clots in a couple of places (again, not unlike map 15, I guess), particularly the odd 'team meeting'-looking group of malcontents in the last tower in the inner ward. Monster composition is pretty varied throughout--certainly not a case of just shooting imps and zombies for 90% of the map--but given how powerful you tend to become as you explore more of the map enemies are generally little more than speedbumps, whatever their type. This is even true of the cyberdemons, who appear more than once on this level, although none of these chaps manage to be particularly threatening in placement, especially not the fellow who teleports to a place where he can hardly touch you all of 1.5 seconds after he sees you. I don't really seem to mind the relatively slowballed pitch of the action in this case, though, for the most part I think it works fairly well with the map's more exploratory nature. I do kinda wish more use had been made of flying enemies out in the central space, though, at least while traversing the inner towers, but w/e.

[Demon of the Well]

My favored picks for the next WAD are Valiant and Hellbound, until such time as they get done or some hypothetical new release gets me all hot and bothered.

(line break for emphasis)

Hellcore is also an interesting selection, but if you'll pardon the rather distasteful (but nevertheless apt!) analogy, I don't reckon I'd enjoy spending the month with that WAD any more than I'd enjoy spending the month with the remnants of a second-trimester abortion. Hellcore 2.0., now, that's a cool WAD (if controversial/unorthodox in some ways), I'd certainly be up for that sometime. ;) A.L.T. is also definitely worth the time, a fine adventure/narrative piece, but.....well, other priorities first, for me.

[Magnusblitz]

MAP26: Acheron
100% kills, 2/4 secrets

A map that shares a lot of design traits with its preceding map, namely, a corridor-heavy adventure around a middle courtyard (much smaller this time though) to collect three keys needed for the exit. And like last map, a fair amount of exploring can be done before finding a key or the exit, though the weapons aren't placed in multiples (I think there might be two SSGs, and obviously you can pick up shotguns/chainguns from the zombies, but that's it). Pistol start is a bit frantic (especially if the player is slow on reacting to that opening ambush) and there's some fun in running away from monsters knowing that the layout generally lets them reach you in the labyrinthine hallways. The Gotcha! homage/ripoff room sticks out a bit of a sore thumb, and the map is very brown, but overall not bad.

[Havoc Crow]

MAP25: Hell's Gate

A very nicely designed castle with a fun, nonlinear layout which leads you naturally throughout the three colored key areas. Ammo was rather strict, but the gameplay was full of great challenges. I liked the small touch with the eye that opens when you grab the supercharge. At the end, the cyberdemon encounter and the one-on-one battle with an arachnotron for control of the lift was sure tense, but I made it through the second time.

One thing I don't get is that one secret (the one near the two hell knights and a rocket launcher.) It was apparently a hidden door, except it was already open both times I got there. Is this a bug?

Anyway, a great map, though I admit that I didn't bother to kill everyone on ground level - that would be a waste of ammo and time. I also never bothered with the large horde to the side of the final lift.

and I feel like the player would have to be deliberately ignoring that natural/hinted-add path to arrive at the locked bars with all three keys already in hand (I just had the blue key at that point).

Really? I just followed the natural layout and it inevitably led me to the exit after leading me through the three key areas first.

Hellcore is also an interesting selection, but if you'll pardon the rather distasteful (but nevertheless apt!) analogy, I don't reckon I'd enjoy spending the month with that WAD any more than I'd enjoy spending the month with the remnants of a second-trimester abortion.

I admit, I mostly chose Hellcore because I played it a long time ago and wanted to feel the nostalgia factor :P Admittedly though it's not that *great* of a mapset... still, 10 Sectors would be another interesting choice.

[TheOrganGrinder]

MAP26: Acheron

Maybe it's just its placement within the WAD, but there are a bit too many similarities in basic layout between this map and the previous one for me to compare it favourably. Both are complexes built around a central courtyard with all three keys necessary to access the switch that opens the door to the exit. I think Hell's Gate provides a better experience in that regard; its theme and setting is more strongly realized and it feels more natural as a place.

Where Acheron shines is in the moment-to-moment gameplay of twisty little low-ceilinged passages, ambushes, snipers... you aren't given an opportunity to dwell on any thematic or atmospheric shortcomings because demons are spilling out of the woodwork to kill you. Interestingly enough, it doesn't feel like there are a lot of doors, so once you've woken a particular group of monsters up, it's easy enough for some of them to get lost within parallel corridors and lurk around to provide some nasty surprises later.

It took me a couple of visits to the Gotcha! area to figure out exactly what the switch before the teleporter did, until which point I was rather beating my head against a wall as to how to actually get the yellow key. The flow there is a bit unintuitive, though once you've been through it once and know that the teleporter will drop you back in front of a door that's opened elsewhere, it all kind of clicks into place. That's where my progression got stymied for a bit.

[mouldy]

Demon of the Well said:

A.L.T. is also definitely worth the time, a fine adventure/narrative piece

I'd be interested in watching the club tackle A.L.T., just to share the pain i've been suffering trying to play it for the last few weeks.

[Memfis]

I would be interested in discussing Hellcore. Of course I'll get bored of posting as usual, but still.

[mouldy]

Map26 - “Acheron”

Great map, really expansive maze of distinctive interconnected areas to tackle in any order you like. There is probably an optimum route from pistol start, I found myself very low on ammo for much of the time, and getting the yellow key last meant doing the rest without a rocket launcher, which is a pain when you end up with nothing but rockets. The design has a lot more visual flourish and non-orthagonal geometry than previous hell maps. I don't get much sense of a progressional journey any more, guess there isn't much to do in hell other than sneak around killing stuff. And of course maps set on earth can have all kinds of themes based around real functional places, whereas hell is just a weird place where monsters hang out. Maybe hell needs more toilets. Anyway, good map this.

[dobu gabu maru]

A.L.T., Valiant, and Hellbound all sound like great suggestions, but I'm going to lean towards Valiant because I've been eagerly wanting to play it since day one. I also like Memfis's idea of 32 random wads for a single month, though organizing them in the OP sounds like a monstrous task.

[SyntherAugustus]

Maybe compile them into one wad?

Edit: If we do Valiant, I might contribute a few videos (maybe one vid per "chapter"). I'm actually up to the final chapter of it and have been meaning to finish it.

[Sui Generis]

dobu gabu maru said:

... I also like Memfis's idea of 32 random wads for a single month, though organizing them in the OP sounds like a monstrous task.

Do you absolutely have to put them on the OP? Personally I'd be tempted to just list them in thread as the month progressed.

[Demon of the Well]

Eh, don't underestimate how droll and/or painful the Roulette-32 thing could turn out to be, especially if you also enact the obscurity stipulation. I've got some stamina (if I do say so), but I don't know if I have THAT much stamina. I think a better idea for a 'singles month' was the one where posters could each choose a small number of single maps to do over the course of the month. Folks who want to play random stuff off the archive could come up with their picks that way if so desired, and hopefully/presumably some others would pick stuff that they know/enjoy, such that there'd be a lower chance of going the whole month without hitting anything palatable (incidentally, playing the 32-level end product of this process would be a helluva lot like playing the original Hellcore).

I'll still do Roulette-32 if we're all in it together, though--that is, come up with some sort of ironic/comedic punishment for those that vote for it but don't stay to post about all 32 maps over the course of the month. It'd be like one of those wacky Japanese gameshows from yesteryear. :D

[Memfis]

Imo the total randomness and not knowing whether you'll find anything you'll like or not is a very enjoyable thing in itself. I don't know if many people will understand this "spirit of adventure", I guess you'll also find it very weird if I'll say that most of the time I pick animes\movies\books\etc without doing any research on them, without reading any reviews, etc? :) I really really like "gambling" like this, it sort of reminds me of my childhood when it was impossible to watch anything on the internet, we only had a TV with like 15 channels and there wasn't much to choose from so we just had to appreciate whatever the television companies would show us. Good times.

Nowadays I pretty much always pick the wad to play with my beloved "Random File" button. It's really cool that they made it.

[Capellan]

Memfis said:

we only had a TV with like 15 channels

I remember being very excited to hear we were getting channel FOUR, youngster :)


map27
A fun brick and marble complex. Perhaps a bit linear, and I have a depressing feeling we’re going to see a cyberdemon battle in every level hereafter, but on the whole a good time to be had, here. Some very striking environments in which to kill things, too.

The exit room is surprisingly easy to cheese once you know what the layout is.

[NuMetalManiak]

MAP27 Phlegethon

another level which I feel it's mostly strong, although the layout is kinda confusing to move around in. there's not a whole lot of shabby points though, so that's good. the ending marble area is kinda messy though, since I'm playing on ZDoom rockets collide with decorations, probably shoulda turned it off somehow. the secrets aren't too terrible, but I found no use of the BFG secret on my difficulty setting.