The DWmegawad Club plays: Doom 2 Reloaded

[NuMetalManiak]

MAP29 Cocytus

oh how I hate this map. a very sprawling cavern which makes it the longest level in the pack (not counting MAP32), and with monsters of varying sizes. the weapon placement makes it hard to get through from a pistol start, like the plasma gun is only in one area. it's a three-key map, but each one is far apart enough from one another that it works out fine, except for two of them I know require some ledgework. I remember there being cyberdemons in a few of the caves, especially on high difficulties; luckily only got to one. the two white marble halls look pretty cool though, at least from a design standpoint. I hate how the BFG hall has two 30-second door triggers. overall I can see it being a cool, difficult penultimate level, but it's difficulty is compounded by placement of things. also lava, lots of damaging lava ruined it for me.

[Sui Generis]

Demon of the Well said:

Oh, and random aside, I think that all of the secrets in this map are quite satisfying to locate, especially the BFG in the exit forum, very clever that one. Good map!

This inspired me to return to my save on that level and I found the secret! Thanks for the little bit of encouragement. Excellent hiding by the author here indeed.

Map28 - “The Underworld”
A big, epic map which I liked. The broad, open trenches and huge structures reminded me of Map 20, except of course here the structures aren't just scenery but form part of the level proper and can be climbed upon and interacted with. From the beginning the player is under pressure from the numerous distant snipers; this perfectly suits the oppressive atmosphere of the large castle. That said, gaining access to the ramparts did seem a bit too simple in contrast. Once this is done they can be systematically cleared along with the rest of the side areas. Due to the scale and limitations of the vanilla engine, several of the smaller areas look as good if not better than the main castle, though the early parts are tastefully designed throughout. Beyond the blue door, the level strongly reconnects to it's Doom 2 inspiration, with the living end/circle of death interior. The arch-vile atop the pillar caused me substantial grief, as the only cover available to interrupt it's attack is down in the lava. The concept of hiding from the cybs in the centre was interesting and a good way to make use of a truly cavernous chamber. I agree that it would have been pleasant to use some instant move sectors to speed the wait. Perhaps if this was combined with control sectors and a second linedef trigger, the floors could instantly move most of the height and then traverse the remaining distance normally.

The cybs would be simple to ignore, but I preferred to kill them. Less happily I also took a painful lavabath to backtrack and take out the remaining monsters on the edges. It does seem like this level is designed to discourage max kills. As a side-effect of my backtracking I was at least able to obtain the last secrets of the map, though I discovered some presumably late teleporting stragglers in need of a date with some lead. Good map overall with a nice increase of scale.

[Pirx]

map 27

one of the best maps of this wad imo, a brownish (mostly metal and wood, more texture variation than previous maps) high, castle-like structure that is fun to explore and offers an impressive view when you emerge from its corridors several stories higher. d2rmus has a dark sounding midi, very fitting.

gameplay is rather leisurely, dealing with a few monsters at once. the cyber encounter could have been better. the only more difficult fight was in the exit arena, where my biggest enemy were the imp fireballs i ran into while fighting the bigger foes. there's a bfg, you say? i must have missed it.


map 28

another epic map. the first half is a large castle with 3 (iirc) rings, star forts, defended mostly by chaingunners and mancubi, and made of the known green marble - i think a bit more variety would have helped. there's one nasty ambush where you open a wooden door and several chaingunners appear at a window behind. the second half is said underworld. first there's a platform where an archvile and several PEs have to be killed with little cover (the outer colums provide some cover, even against the archie), then the descent to the island with 3 cyberdemons... where it was simply hilarious to jump around some hapless imps before seeing them disintegrated by a rocket salvo. (i saved here just to try this several times, heh)
the exit is a bit easy to reach, despite its guards... i mean, easy to stumble into, like i did.


map 29

... leaving that for tomorrow, i'm tired and see only caves yet :p

[Havoc Crow]

MAP29: Cocytus

Too difficult for me. I gave up. It looks fine though but really could use more health and less fucking cyberdemons.

[SyntherAugustus]

Any chance for Swift Death as next month's megawad? It's a bit different.

http://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mods/70656-swift-death-challenging-megawad/

[scifista42]

+1, Swift Death would be cool - it has versatile difficulty settings and all fun compact maps.

My secondary vote goes to Valiant.

[TheOrganGrinder]

MAP29: Cocytus

Oof. River of Lamentations indeed.

This is a big, sprawling, and tough level design around a cavern theme. Several big, gently curving areas with multiple ledges and elevations dominate, connected by narrower, twisty passages; each majorn cavern is the domain of a cyberdemon, and the terrain really works against you here, since there's no 'open' to pull them into. The theme of recovering three keys to open the way to a switch returns again; the blue key also allows access to an optional area containing health, ammunition, the BFG 9000, and a vicious two-step arena-style ambush.

Visually I have no complaints; the lava-filled caverns are stunningly realized and deeply menacing, reminding me of a Quake Hellscape scaled up. I think that scaling-up is the major downside of this level; as previously mentioned, it's a big map, and with so much of it dominated by similar-looking caverns, it feels at times as though it's overstaying its welcome. Ammo and health are pretty abundant, to compensate for the widespread damaging floors and lack of radiation suits; overall, the placement of supplies coaxes the player onwards, encourages recklessness by giving you plenty of opportunities to recover from a fumbled play. The layout is pretty open and I believe it's possible to collect the keys in any order.

I enjoyed this level. I think I'd have enjoyed it more at half the size.

[cannonball]

Map29 - “Cocytus”
Well the epic factor is certainly here, okay this wasn't the most enjoyable experience but I can certainly dig several elements of this.
The visuals left me in a state of "why didn't you do this in some other hell levels?". It looks great, the gameplay here isn't slaughter based at all, but simply a labyrinth of hell where your ass will be kicked at any time, at the base of this are an army of cybers prowling the lower levels, but other monsters play their part, mid-tier monsters hover the upper ledges and lost souls and sergeants drain your health on a regular occasion.
The layout can get confusing, but I think the map hasn't reached the stage of getting completely lost, I grabbed the red and blue keys fairly quickly, but only struggled for the yellow key after I placed myself in a tough situation with 2 cybers on both sides with mancubi, sergeants and lost souls with me in the middle, add to that revenants on the upper ledges.
In the end a tough as nails map and perfectly suited to the map29 slot, but I guess some improvements could be made here, firstly placing the plasma gun in a few more locations and perhaps make navigation a little easier to handle.
I forgot about the BFG area too, so I had to kill a few of the cybers with rockets and the SSG which actually given their location was pretty fun to do as you had to keep your wits about you considering the outcroppings all over the place.

[scifista42]

Map29 - “Cocytus”

Another atmospheric map. Strongly Romero-inspired, but not a ripoff of his layouts - I'm talking about texturing and overall style. Indeed, the map looked good. And even though the cavernous theme and same gameplay/progression logic persisted throughout the whole map, I've considered it interesting, mostly enjoyable, and fitting for a pre-final level. I only didn't have the nerves to fight the Revenant swarms, so that I've skipped them. Everything else in the map was OK, at least. I liked the lighting in this map, despite being relatively simple, it managed to look immersive.

[Capellan]

map30
It’s the Icon of Sin turned up to 11. There is admittedly an alternate way to kill ol’ headboy, but it doesn’t seem like it would be any more fun. Didn’t bother to finish.


Overall … eh. There are some good levels in D2RELOAD, but there are some decidedly not good ones too. Most of the first episode is poor, and map24 is a godawful idea. I liked most of episode 2, and there are some solid maps in episode 3, but I can’t see myself ever feeling the urge to replay this wad.

[mouldy]

Map29 - “Cocytus”

Wow, this was a map and a half. Totally crazy from pistol start, every avenue of escape seems to have a cybredemon at the end of it, and no matter how deep you dive there is just more and more hell to fall into. Epic stuff. Felt like a total shift upwards to another level of difficulty from all the previous maps, and a totally organic environment for a change. Has to be my favourite map of the whole wad so far, not that there is much left to beat it. There were situations, such as the bfg room, where I just had to try and figure out the best way to run away from it all, but of course everything you leave behind is free to catch up with you eventually. The occasional patches of lava made things a little frustrating, when you are already on low health and struggling and there is no way to avoid it, but this is hell now so deal with it I guess. There are certainly enough resources to cope, its just finding them that is the tricky part. Top marks.

[Magnusblitz]

MAP29: Cocytus
96% kills, 1/5 secrets

After base after base and castle after castle, Eschdoom finally stretches his muscles and delivers an epic-sized cavern romp. I found it somewhat reminscient of Vader's "Theory of Broken Circles" MAP15 from BTSX Episode 2 - lots of free-flowing caverns connecting some dilapidated/hellish structures, requiring exploration to find all three keys. Cocytus' main 'gimmick' is the use of a cyberdemon prowling each other, keeping the player on the run through the smaller ratmazes in-between each large area.

Especially from pistol start, this map is a bit of a doozy. Part of that is actually a problem, I think, because unlike MAP25, weapons aren't placed in multiple locales (there are multiple RLs, but one appears to be in a secret and one is near the end and probably unreachable without getting the other one). I was able to kill 150 monsters and grab the blue key with just the shotgun/chaingun taken off zombies, but I found myself unable to really proceed until I finally found the one path that led to the SSG and RL. This limits the exploration somewhat - instead of being able to approach the whole level how you want, you instead have to just keep running until you find the one "right" path.

And the paths aren't always clear, either - the keys tend to be tucked away out of sight, and reaching some of them requires going through blind teleports at the northeast corner. A better design point is the BFG, which is very obvious as a "THIS IS THE BFG, THERE WILL BE A BIG FIGHT FOR IT" type encounter.

Still, it's a really fun map, probably one of the best in the WAD. Kinda a shame the author waited until the penultimate level to really experiment with something that wasn't a base/castle, because it's clear he can deliver on other designs.

MAP30: The Final Conflict
70% kills, 3/4 secrets

Yup, this is basically Icon of Sin, but amped up a fair amount - there's the "get all your gear" quiet room (which you can actually return to, which is nice), then a brief interlude (hell is apparently chaingunners) which is just kinda 'run from it' filler, then the Icon of Sin itself, complete with a column that needs to be raised. As Capellan notes, there is another way to kill the Icon, and I did this and actually found it somewhat fun. Only thing I didn't really like was placing two cyberdemons at the top of a small lift.

[Demon of the Well]

Map 28 -- The Underworld - 101% Kills / 100% Secrets
It certainly takes its sweet time--arguably maybe a little too much--but D2Reload's Hell episode does in fact build up to something, and one can see the game's climax start to take shape beginning with this map. There is much more of a sense of spectacle here than is found in the majority of the WAD, both a function of scale and presentation, I think. The broad similarities to 'The Living End' from the original Doom II hardly seem accidental, and are quite telling: when the map first loads you are looking at (and being fired upon from) a terraced citadel in the distance, and you'll spend much of the runtime ascending towards its sanctum, a proposition that lends a rewarding sense of progress to the proceedings, something that D2Reload's approach generally communicates better from map to map rather than within individual maps. But of course, once you make it up there, it's still not the end; a charmingly cinematic (if not terribly practical or effective) wave of flesh-eating demons charges out of the bowels of the sanctum towards you, and after you mow them down you find that they were merely a preamble to a descent into some fiery subterranean caverns, the deepest of which houses a well-guarded gate into the deepest reaches of Hell. Being able to see this gate in the lake of brimstone in the vast gloomy cavern from a variety of vantages as one progresses towards it, apart from being a satisfying thematic reprisal of climbing the citadel earlier (and with echoes of seeing the looming UAC skyscraper from afar in map 20, for that matter), is exactly what I mean when I speak of 'spectacle', all the more striking here because it is so relatively rare in the majority of this mapset, given its generally very practical approach to architecture and presentation.

Like much of D2Reload's Hell, the primary assets on display are dirt, wood, and a helluva lot of cut green stone; the blending of materials that served map 27 so well is not really in evidence, and were it not for the thematic shift presented by the lava-caverns at the end of the map, this would feel a lot like another iteration of a theme that has already been done several times in recent maps. But, to return to an earlier comparison I made to Vile Flesh, I think the broadstroke approach to texturing works better in this map, precisely because the general sense of scale in structure and expanse in the playing field is much larger than in most previous maps; there's a visceral difference between the impact an interminable network of tight corridors all made out of one material makes and the impact an exterior view of a big, imposing building hewn from that same material makes, after all. Fairly abstract by D2Reload standards, the fortress nevertheless does communicate some of Eschdoom's favored representationalism in its features, with the hidden/optional throne room being my favorite bit.

From a combat/exploration perspective I reckon this plays quite a bit like map 25, with a relatively softballed early hunt for weapons (just mind the sniping hitscanners up on the citadel's walls if you're roaming around outside) that eventually sees you develop into an unstoppable engine of destruction (and long before the map reaches its conclusion in this case, especially if you find a secret or two). There are a lot of monsters, but they're spread around a fairly big/spacious map, and so the impression is generally of a string of smaller skirmishes rather than one long protracted engagement or a series of highly choreographed showdowns or ambushes. It's not particularly heart-pounding but satisfying enough, and I quite like the way new squads of monsters are periodically allowed to approach you from afar as you make progress, which makes the action feel more organic and complements the way in which the setting is traversed (which features a bit of running to and fro along various layers of the citadel). Monster density spikes a bit near the end, but for the most part danger doesn't. As aforesaid, that rush of pinkies is not very formidable, and even the huge cluster of evil guarding the final gate (which includes three cyberdemons on UV) is not particularly effective given the free V-sphere and the potential for infighting; if anything, the deadliest monsters in the map are probably the gasbags and maybe the surprise arch-vile in the first cavern. I don't consider most of this to be problematic, though. Sometimes its fine to emphasize bloodshed over actual danger, I reckon, again, especially in the name of spectacle.

[NuMetalManiak]

MAP30 The Final Conflict

who sets it up like that? first, the Icon sees you, but won't spit anywhere near you as you run to the teleporter to the big ammo room. then, a monster area which isn't difficult to contend with (although an arch-vile jump is required for one secret). and then you go to the main arena. it's setup very differently on each difficulty setting, on the lowest ones you get hordes of zombiemen on the walls, on higher difficulties they are replaced by spiderdemons and/or cyberdemons. but where are the Icon's cubes going exactly? I think Andy got lazy, as they all spawn into one of two dummy sectors. one helps teleport the monsters in while the other one practically crushes whatever monster was in them. therefore, once the initial opposition was cleared out, I did not have much to worry, just figure out how to trigger the lift to smash the boss brain with rockets and end the goddamned level.

one more thing, that midi from the old D2RMUS.wad, is 30 minutes long. not seconds, minutes.

[Demon of the Well]

Map 29 -- Cocytus - 106% Kills / 60% Secrets
In literature, (Lake) Cocytus is traditionally portrayed as a dark, frigid place, but Eschdoom rendered his version of it in a more traditional Doom style, all burning brimstone-soaked caverns and stately marble halls. It's almost a bit of a shame he didn't pursue the literary angle, would've given him a reason to use a lot more of that rare white marble, and maybe some damaging water, everybody loves that. Nonetheless, visually and aesthetically the map works well enough, as others have remarked it's interesting to see him handle so much (super)natural terrain with such apparent ease after 30-ish maps of very orderly orthogonal hallways and chambers. A few small parts of the level look a bit untowardly bright to me (especially some of the redstone tunnels), and sometimes I think there can be a few too many different types of rock all layered together in one screen, but generally speaking the setting is well-realized, with all of the aesthetic virtues typical of the mapset (directional lighting, etc.) seen through the lens of the refreshingly jagged, organic terrain/topography. Incidentally, the focus on navigating rocky terrain and skipping over lavafalls lends the map a much more persistently vertical element in moment-to-moment play, particularly where the dynamic of the cyberdemons controlling the low ground, smaller demons controlling the high ground, and the player slinking around in tunnels and looking for an in is concerned.

On that note, while I don't have much call for complaining about the gameplay in this map--it certainly succeeds in capturing that traditional penultimate map feeling, no doubt--I must remark that this does seem like the kind of map that's more fun on your first experience with it. While there are scads and scads of monsters about, the real challenge (and the real fun) of this level is scampering around woefully outgunned, trying to squeeze past rocket-launching goatlegged roadblocks and walls of hell-flesh to find something to fight back with. Once you know where the weapons are, you'll tend to find that they're not terribly difficult to reach (monsters acting as effective obstacles is largely a function of the player waffling about nervously because s/he doesn't know where to go), and the nature of the terrain tends to heavily favor a well-armed player just as decisively as it vexes an underarmed one. This means that actually getting through much of the map when you know exactly where you're going/what you're doing is more of a cleanup exercise, albeit with highlights here and there (I do like the BFG shrine, for instance, I remember being taken aback seeing this author releasing that many revenants on my first time). I did actually mess up and die once to a cyberdemon here, he must've found a big enough pebble to stand on that allowed him to loft a rocket into the side of my head while I was futzing about with some imps on a high ledge (incidentally, if you dislike the normal custom death sound packed in with d2rmus.wad, I defy you to not warm up to it at least a little when you hear the 'die hard' variant ;) )....and that's the point, really, once you get your weapons you can use the veritable shitload of ammo and health scattered about to decisively control the field and establish all kinds of killzones, with the only real risk at that point being your own stupidity/ego. I suppose you could say that, on the simplest level, the action's trajectory is quite a lot like that of maps 25 and 28, with the key difference that Eschdoom is absolutely not playing nice anymore here.

Quite respectable map 29. I think map 28 is probably my favorite of the Hell maps, but this one's assuredly the big chunk of substantive endgame action whereas that one's largely about presentation. I also appreciate that, while its overall theme is very traditional, in the context of the rest of the mapset it does feel like quite a stylistic departure, which is almost always a positive attribute in the very last levels of the game, IMO.

Map 30 -- The Final Conflict - 372% Kills / 100% Secrets
There's a bit more than meets the eye to this one. It can be played as a very traditional IoS setup (and actually firing the rockets into the demon-spitter's brain is easier than average in this case, methinks), but in keeping with D2Reload's penchant for secrets, there's an alternate easter-egg sort of way to squash Romero's noggin provided you are inquisitive enough to seek it out--it's not really 'hidden', exactly, but you're given the opportunity to finish up traditionally before exploring all of the final chamber, and so the choice is yours. Most of the actual challenge comes from the somewhat unexpected arch-vile charge in the otherwise vaguely sloggy inverted cross chamber that precedes the boss room proper (at least that's one vile-jump secret I remembered to get for once), and from figuring out how to get up on that ledge with the two cyberdemons without getting blown to bits. That's presumably what the V-sphere from the first secret is for, actually, but there's another clever (if somewhat meta-gamey) way: one of the skull switches down in the lava actuates a lift that allows you to reach the ledge directly under the cyberdemons, and if you screw around up there for a bit sooner or later (probably sooner) the masterminds across the way are going to hit one or both of the cyberdemons with an errant bullet while trying to hit you, and you can ride the lift up to their area and BFG them into oblivion at point-blank range while they're busy lobbing rockets and/or 'yo momma' jokes at the spiders.

In some ways I can see where this might be an IoS map for people that don't like IoS maps, not only because the rocket-pegging ritual is pretty easy in this case but also because, as Getsu says, the actual rate of monster-spawnage is pretty limited, especially considering they don't actually gain access to the play area until quite late in the proceedings. It had actually never occurred to me that you can apparently go back to the supply room full of goodies whenever you feel like it, but if that's the case, that certainly takes more of the pressure off of the player as well. For my part, I don't have particularly passionate feelings about this one--I appreciate the alternate method for killing the boss, but the little preamble in the inverted cross chamber seems like more of a chore than a privilege, the subdued rate of monster-spawnage means it's not really suited to that 'Endurance' thing I like to do (I'm a strange one, I know), and it doesn't really wow me in terms of spectacle, competent enough though it is.

*********

Doom II Reloaded, hmm. I feel like I may have unintentionally been damning it with faint praise all this time, and it's true that it is generally speaking a little too persistently subdued/restrained both in terms of combat and aesthetics for it to be one of my own personal favorites (it's also a slow starter, but that's something that seldom seems to be actually bother me much, to be honest), but there is quite a lot to appreciate here. Stepping outside the moment-to-moment action, it's hard not to see just how meticulously planned and paced the vast majority of this mapset is, from the smallest monster encounter in one of those early crate warehouses to the hunted animal scramble of map 29; every trigger, every switch, every scrap of ammo, every stimpack, and every monster Eschdoom places he places quite deliberately, and as a result there is very little downtime or janitor-duty in his mapset, and nothing else I've played feels quite like it. The delightful brain-teasing secrets that mine every map are an extension of this; while I don't think it's accurate to characterize this as an 'oldschool' mapset, it has few compunctions about asking you to periodically engage your brain and your capacity for inductive reasoning, something not at all uncommon in PWADs of yore that has fallen farther and farther out of favor as time has worn on. All that being said, while D2Reload is very controlled and calculating in style, it's also unafraid to engage in the occasional wild experiment, most obviously embodied in the form of its higher-than-high-concept maps 09, 32, 18, and 24. It is simply inevitable that maps like these will never receive anything but an extremely mixed reaction in threads like these, but having some really odd ducks here and there in a 32-level set that take a break from 'regular' gameplay in favor of something completely different can do the mapset's overall flow a world of good, and they are something I'd like to see become at least a little bit more common in the context of more or less 'normal' mapsets.

Top 5 maps, in no particular order:
Map 13 -- Slimefalls
Map 17 -- Downtown
Map 16 -- Research Facility
Map 28 -- The Underworld
Map 27 -- Phlegethon

Honorable mentions to maps 18, 29, and 32--all quite cool ideas in their own ways, but they are all the sort of thing that's not quite as enchanting if you've beaten them before.

[TheOrganGrinder]

MAP30: The Final Conflict

It's an Icon of Sin map, I don't really do Icon of Sin maps, so... all the visual fidelity we've come to expect from the well-developed maps of the Hell episode of this WAD, but other than that I've not much to say.

[Havoc Crow]

MAP30: The Final Conflict

A classical, rising-lift Icon of Sin map. I hate this kind of maps; it's so frustrating when you need to aim super-carefully while harassed from all sides by flying monsters, and if you miss, too bad, one more trip up the lift for you. Lost Soul wanders in front of you right as you blast the rocket launcher? Whoops.

So. I don't really get the point of the third area, the one with all the chaingunners and mancubi and all; owing to the helpful invisibility sphere, you can easily reach the teleporter while taking little to no damage. I don't understand how am I supposed to deal with the Cyberdemons and Spider Masterminds. I assume I'm supposed to make them infight, but I can't find a way to do so reliably, it seems to be mostly luck-based - when you ride that lift up to the cyberdemon ledge, they'll either be in an advantageous position, or you'll die in seconds.

Anyway, this is another map which is way too hard for me and I never completed it, even with saves. Maybe I'd find it (and MAP29) more playable if I went back to Hurt Me Plenty again, but I don't really feel like playing these maps once more.

***

So, I've been hoping to make it to the end, but unfortunately MAP29 and MAP30 were such a jump in difficulty that I found them unmanageable. A bit surprising when you consider that most of the mapset is relatively easy compared to other megawads, and downright trivial on HMP.

This is a mixed bag; there are some gems, but there are also a lot of mediocre maps with nothing outstanding about them. This is especially true for the first two episodes; it's only in the hell episode that the megawad starts becoming predominantly good. I'm not sure if it's the author's skills developing over time, or if he simply feels more at home in Hell.

Still, though the third episode is worth playing, the first 20 maps are hit-and-miss. I honestly don't think I'd enjoy playing this if it weren't for the pleasure of participating in the Club. Thank you all for the experience.

Top 5 maps, in no particular order (yep, stolen this one from DotW):

MAP13: Slimefalls
MAP15: South Central
MAP25: Hell's Gate
MAP26: Acheron
MAP27: Phlegethon

***

Oh, and a quick comment on the secret maps...
MAP31: Entryway Reloaded - I kinda liked this. It's a remake of a Doom II map, but unlike MAP07 this one has more eye-candy and original decor, as well as changes to the monster roster to make it fit the late-game slot. It genuinely feels like "What would MAP01 look like if Petersen had way more time, a more comfortable editor, and wasn't stymied by vanilla limits."
MAP32: The Super Secret Level - A level which revolves around looking for secrets everywhere... sorry, not my cup of tea. The timed door blocking the way to one of the earliest secrets was annoying enough to put me off from playing this much longer.

[cannonball]

Map30 - “The Final Conflict”
Well I had to kill the icon the secret way, my goodness that is a major pain in the ass.
Otherwise it is your usual boss level for doom 2. hey ho.

Overall I thought this was a decent wad overall, some really good maps mixed with some duds.
Favourites - Map25, 22, 28, 15 and 27 probably.

[yakfak]

new music for Map 10 :D

All in all I think of Doom 2 Reloaded as a more modern version of Marswar, IE, a one-man plotty megawad with its own style. I do still prefer Marswar but D2Reload attains greater highs in the gimmick levels.

will anyone answer my question about Map 08 being one of the hardest maps from pistol start? It seemed ludicrous to me...

Demon of the Well: I wasn't quite as thrilled by Map 24 - it does sort of exacerbate all the "corridor-only" criticisms the megawad gets in general, doesn't it! :D

[scifista42]

Map30 - “The Final Conflict”

Great immersive atmosphere, terrible gameplay. It's a sadistic gimmicky IOS level, and unless you're a fan of them, you will suffer badly from random high-tier enemies roaming around an open map full of lifts and detour paths. Not my cup of tea. I actually didn't finish the map despite saving and Reloading a hundred times, I lost patience in the end.

Notable design in this map were the 2 high Archvile cages. I liked how they were placed to make it difficult to harm/kill the Archviles, making them a constant threat - that said, I was really annoyed by where they were placed, threatening the player while riding a lift to the IOS, making an annoying task even more annoying.

[Suitepee]

Just letting people know that I do intend to continue my livestream playthrough of D2R for the DWMegawad Club; it's just that my PC's power supply blew last week and I've only just got it back this evening. Expect the rest of D2R to be covered asap!

[scifista42]

Some overall stats:

These are the D2Reload maps I've played before: 01-07, 09-10, 13, 16-19, 23-25, 30-32.
These maps I might have played, but don't remember: 11-12.
And these are the maps I've played for the first time this month: 08, 14-15, 20-22, 26-29.

Favorite maps: 15, 16, 19, 22, 26, 27.
Honorable mentions: 01, 04, 07, 31. (I consider them iconic and memorable)
Least favorite maps: 18, 30, 32. (due to bad executions of their ideas, the concepts of 18 and 32 themselves were good)

Final rating: 4/5

[Magnusblitz]

Final Thoughts

When I was first beginning to formulate my 'as a whole' thoughts on the WAD, I was thinking of describing it as a "well-done amateur set" simply because it feels a lot like what a first-timer would want to do when making a Doom megawad... an emphasis on "realistic" design and making representations of real-world places, not caring if a level is monotone or linear, etc. I also admit that I might be influenced by the fact that "Doom 2 Reloaded" feels like the sort of title every 13-year-old would've come up with... I admit my own 'first mods' always tended to be very heavily tied into the original game rather than anything original on its own.

After more thought, I don't think that's quite fair. The cues are sometimes subtle, but there's evidence that eschdoom did know what he was doing. Yes, the levels tend to either be very linear or 'gather all three keys' for the exit. And yes, the levels tend to be very one or two-color, often brown/silver for the techbases. But there's some obvious real care in the monster and weapon placement. I won't go so far as Demon in saying that 'every scrap' is deliberately placed (hello MAP23 Pain Elemental that can't shoot lost souls) but the vast majority are. Especially impressive, for example, was the starting box maze in MAP06. And we haven't even mentioned the secrets yet, which required a lot of thinking but still seemed pretty fair, for the most part - I like 'em a lot, even when I was missing a ton.

And while many of the levels are pretty same-y, there some nice experimentations - MAP09's race-against-time to teleport monsters under the crusher, MAP18's stealth gameplay, or MAP24's... well, let's not talk about that one. Given how well most of the experiments worked (or came close) I would've liked to see the author push the boundaries a bit more with some of the other maps, but it's still a very solid mapset as a whole.

Top maps: MAP06, MAP16, MAP25, MAP29
Worst maps: MAP01, MAP07, MAP24

[NuMetalManiak]

my final thoughts:

okay, D2RELOAD is mediocre, but I like this kinda mediocre. it's just something I can play, and then when I feel like it, play it again. there's nothing exquisitely shabby about it apart from some concept maps which the newer players wouldn't enjoy. this megawad does get better by the end. I hate the new D2RMUS though, it's a collection of tracks we probably already know. the former D2RMUS, which I believe is still bundled with the DSDA download, is better. now my favorites are 08, 11, 17, 21, 23, 25, 26, 27, and 28.

Have we reached a decision yet?

[mouldy]

Map30 - “The Final Conflict”

I really can't be arsed. Not if i have to deal with 2 point blank cybers. And icon of sin rising pillar rocket hole shooting can get stuffed.

So, final thoughts on this adventure. Its been interesting, there was a story running through most of it that helped keep my attention, though it fizzled out when we got to the hell maps, and the finale was a bit disappointing in that respect since it didn't supply any kind of resolution. The maps are mostly decent, a bit minimalist in detail for my taste, but nice use of new textures. I'm glad I played with the music wad because that added a lot to the atmosphere of many maps.

[Demon of the Well]

yakfak said:

will anyone answer my question about Map 08 being one of the hardest maps from pistol start? It seemed ludicrous to me...

Demon of the Well: I wasn't quite as thrilled by Map 24 - it does sort of exacerbate all the "corridor-only" criticisms the megawad gets in general, doesn't it! :D

Map 08's pistol-start is kind of binary in difficulty, I think. It plays like a very 'ordinary' level IF you find the first secret, and is very easy in general if you keep finding them after that. A no secrets pistol-start play on UV, by contrast, is quite the ordeal, particularly at that part of the level which puts a monster-clog in the dogleg of a corridor right after a catwalk which is sniped at from afar.

I think that Eschdoom bet his chips on a hypothetical player realizing sooner or later that something is very wrong if they continue on the main route and never deviate from it to look for what they're missing; the ammo and weapons you get on the main route alone are simply not balanced adequately for the opposition you face, and not in a subtle way, either--I reckon you're supposed to realize that the setup as it stands is unreasonable. If you're skilled and/or stubborn you can still do it, mind, but it's not a lot of fun either way. Unfortunately, that bet he made is probably a mite naive. While the all-important first secret is nearly impossible to miss if you go down into the ooze for a moment (and I think that very first Baron of Hell is supposed to coax players into the ooze within seconds of the map beginning, but unfortunately he's not quite adequate to cause that against stubborn and/or slippery players), I think gaming culture is in a place right now where many players will bullheadedly stay on the main route and persist in having a terrible time--in some cases, probably largely as a matter of principle--rather than taking a step back and considering an indirect approach for even a fraction of a second (I'm looking at you here, Suitepee). The first secret could probably be fairly categorized as a 'soft mandatory' secret (like the unflagged hidden ammo/weapon cache in map 24 of Requiem, if you recall that one), and, to some sensibilities, having one of those in your map is considered to be simply fundamentally failed design; or, phrased another way, it's something considered inappropriate/illogical enough that many players may simply assume they won't encounter it in a serious mapset, and thus it never occurs to them to look for it in the first place, in which case the map just seems broken. It's a subtle thing, but little quirks like this are why I say that while D2Reload is an identifiably 'modern' WAD overall, it evinces some rather anachronistic sensibilities in places (presumably because Eschdoom made maps inspired in some way be maps he himself had enjoyed).

Poor map 24. He made such a strong commitment to a corridor for the sake of a corridor in that one that it almost works....almost.

[Capellan]

Demon of the Well said:
I think that very first Baron of Hell is supposed to coax players into the ooze within seconds of the map beginning, but unfortunately he's not quite adequate to cause that against stubborn and/or slippery players

I think that if eschdoom had simply not put a shotgun on the starting platform, a lot more pistol starters would do what he intended. Just a minor tweak to make it work.

You remain certifiably insane about map24, on the other hand :)

[Demon of the Well]

I was thinking an arch-vile right behind the Baron would've done the trick, myself.

Sanity's a luxury not all of us can afford. ;)

[SyntherAugustus]

Level 23

Man, this level sucks dick for pistol starters. The player gets ambushed by lost souls and has to charge into the second room for a shotgun from a zombie! Nothing much else to say other that it's easy for the player to get lost in the map after pressing the switch guarded by the baron.

Edit: Oh yeah, doorbell secret!

Level 24

Another one of those maps.

Actually it wasn't as bad as people are making it out to be. I feel for the author wanting to make a bleak catacomb. The midi choice worked great here. There's an interesting "mega secret" involving shooting all the gargoyle heads to access the bfg. But of course as always, there's no real hints of getting to said secret other than opening doom builder.

Edit: For some laughs, load this with WW-Nazis


http://tinyurl.com/q5u36sc

[Pirx]

Demon of the Well said:

I think that Eschdoom bet his chips on a hypothetical player realizing sooner or later that something is very wrong if they continue on the main route and never deviate from it to look for what they're missing; the ammo and weapons you get on the main route alone are simply not balanced adequately for the opposition you face, and not in a subtle way, either--I reckon you're supposed to realize that the setup as it stands is unreasonable. If you're skilled and/or stubborn you can still do it, mind, but it's not a lot of fun either way. Unfortunately, that bet he made is probably a mite naive. While the all-important first secret is nearly impossible to miss if you go down into the ooze for a moment (and I think that very first Baron of Hell is supposed to coax players into the ooze within seconds of the map beginning, but unfortunately he's not quite adequate to cause that against stubborn and/or slippery players), I think gaming culture is in a place right now where many players will bullheadedly stay on the main route and persist in having a terrible time--in some cases, probably largely as a matter of principle--rather than taking a step back and considering an indirect approach for even a fraction of a second

heh. i wrote somewhere that i can be terrible at playing new maps. i remember map08 well because it didn't even occur to me to jump in the nukage because of one baron. i slipped past him, thinking that saving my shells is a better move, and continued valiantly with the shotgun. made it through the map and felt a bit dumb after reading about the ssg secret here.

well, eschdoom's calculation worked, actually: if a baron doesn't scare you, you can make it anyway. leaving the shotgun out doesn't really work either as the baron is easy to bypass and you get a shotgun from the zombies. but an archvile behind him would have made me jump in no time.

this experience makes 08 one of my favorites. 13 also had a great design, unique in the megawad, and 25-28 is clearly the best part. 29 also looked great, but it's a bit large and convoluted, and the start where you run into cybers repeatedly with only a shotgun wasn't my thing.