More goodies from Romero (DoomEd source, maps, graphics)

[Quasar]

Maes said:

To be fair, almost everything running under DOS took longer to load than DOS itself, especially if we're referring just to MSDOS.SYS, IO.SYS and COMMAND.COM. I remember how I mocked Windows 95's loading time of several minutes (on 4 MB machines) while DOS booted practically instantly even from a floppy. The only thing able to beat DOS at that would be some weird super-custom loader routine, e.g. in some scene demo or unusual application software like Scala MM.



I didn't believe that either in 1994, because I had a 486DX (aka built-in FPU). But legend has it that those folks without one (users of 486[i]SX{/i], 386 without 387 FPU etc. really did experience such protracted node-building times.

I once managed to get hold of an 8087 FPU chip that fit into an old PC XT's mobo, and tried software compiled on some ancient Turbo Pascal compiler, with and without 8087 optimizations. The 8087-enabled software was up to 10 times faster, so it's not crazy to read about such large performance discrepancies with and without a FPU.

BSP is written entirely in fixed-point so any benefit your DX had was either imaginary, or you were using a different node builder. FYI the 486 75 I was referring to earlier was itself a DX4. Having an FPU doesn't help programs that are written to do integer math.

[LogicDeLuxe]

I had a 486DX50 back then. I remember DEU took a lot longer then IDBSP to build the nodes. Later node builders were even faster than IDBSP, so I assumed, that they are better optimized. Does the DEU node builder actually use an FPU in its binary distribution?

[Danfun64]

Forgive me for sounding ungrateful Mr.Romero, but you didn't post a license on your released stuff. I wouldn't be surprised if you want all of it non-commercial, all right reserved etc, or if you want some things non-commercial, but are willing to release the maps under a free license, like what was done for Quake 1; possibly a permissive license that would allow Freedoom to absorb them :P. Can you at least put your statement in writing?

[Wagi]

fraggle said:

EDIT: doom2maps/ has levels up to MAP36, and DoomMapSE/ has an E5M1. So that's interesting ...

Are you really so suprised? The Doom source code mentions 36 maps several times in comments and code.

[Gez]

Wagi said:

Are you really so suprised? The Doom source code mentions 36 maps several times in comments and code.

4*9=36, there's 36 maps in Ultimate Doom.

[Altazimuth]

After looking through all of this stuff I am truly amazing at all the stuff packed in here. I suppose somebody will have to update the tcrf.net article at this point.

[fraggle]

Wagi said:

Are you really so suprised? The Doom source code mentions 36 maps several times in comments and code.

Which files? I'm not seeing it.

Danfun64 said:

Forgive me for sounding ungrateful Mr.Romero, but you didn't post a license on your released stuff. I wouldn't be surprised if you want all of it non-commercial, all right reserved etc, or if you want some things non-commercial, but are willing to release the maps under a free license, like what was done for Quake 1; possibly a permissive license that would allow Freedoom to absorb them :P. Can you at least put your statement in writing?

It's unlikely that he legally has the right to release any of this stuff. It's not like he works for id any more.

[Krazov]

fraggle said:

It's unlikely that he legally has the right to release any of this stuff. It's not like he works for id any more.

It’s unlikely that anyone cares. Luckily for us.

[Technician]

Cire said:

Quasar: Doesn't 3D Realms have a Strife beta of some kind on that old beta CD they've showed a screenshot of?

They have a Doom folder located in an old Apagee archive disk. They posted a screen shot on their 3DRealms forums many-a year ago.

[Danfun64]

Krazov said:

It’s unlikely that anyone cares. Luckily for us.

I care, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

[Marnetmar]

Danfun64 said:

I care, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Aren't you just a righteous, morally upstanding individual?

[chungy]

Anyone that cares to have a proper open source distribution of DoomEd should care. It's unlikely that ZeniMax will ever give the clear on it, though :/

[LogicDeLuxe]

chungy said:

Anyone that cares to have a proper open source distribution of DoomEd should care.

DoomEd sure is historically interesting, but not really that useful nowadays, I guess.

Probably most people are actually interested in the unused resources, where it does matter. There sure are many ways to make use of them.

[Deleted_Account]

Danfun64 said:

I care, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

John Carmack, is that you?

[Danfun64]

Piper Maru said:

John Carmack, is that you?

Sorry, it isn't. I can't (really) code, I can't draw well, and I wasn't even born when Doom first came out. However, I admit that I am a little obsessed with licensing.
Piper, can I include you thinking I was Carmack in my signature?

Marnetmar said:

Aren't you just a righteous, morally upstanding individual?

I'm not sure I'd say that. Maybe a little paranoid :P

[Deleted_Account]

Danfun64 said:
Sorry, it isn't. I can't (really) code, I can't draw well, and I wasn't even born when Doom first came out. However, I admit that I am a little obsessed with licensing.
Piper, can I include you thinking I was Carmack in my signature?

lol, go for it dude!

[fraggle]

Danfun64 said:

Sorry, it isn't. I can't (really) code, I can't draw well, and I wasn't even born when Doom first came out. However, I admit that I am a little obsessed with licensing.

A bright future awaits you on Doomworld.com.

[Danfun64]

Except zdoom uses the dsl license, not the gpl. Also, the source code of heretic and hexen have been re-released under the gpl.

[Csonicgo]

fraggle said:

A bright future awaits you on Doomworld.com.

Watch out, he might have paid millions of dollars in legal advice! You're in it DeeP, pal!

[fraggle]

A vain attempt to analyze an intentionally nonsensical phrase from a comedy image macro is exactly the kind of response I'd expect from the culture of legal pedanticism that said macro was itself intended to mock.

Cire said:

Hey, Mr. Romero, do you possibly have any more unreleased game content to share? I'm sure me and many others would be highly interested in this.

If there's one thing I've noticed, it's that he never releases everything and likes to always have a few surprises up his sleeve.

That said, with the level sources, unreleased music, artwork etc. the amount of stuff still private is rapidly diminishing.

Examples of stuff that hasn't been released would be:

• Sound effects stuff, like cut sound effects, and sources for some of the custom-made ones that Bobby Prince did. For example, years ago I'm sure I remember that Romero gave a friend of mine a copy of the original, undistorted version of the "To win the game you must kill me..." sample, on one occasion when he came on IRC. Unfortunately I think my friend lost it (this was over 15 years ago). But I'm pretty sure Romero must have that and a bunch of other stuff in his possession.
  
  
• Monster sprite source images. While doom-textures.zip included a bunch of powerup sprites (including some cut ones), the other sprites for monsters etc. were not included and had to be explicitly asked for. The zombie and player sprites are the most relevant because they had the extra rotations. But some of the zombie sprites had interesting bits on the sides and it's reasonable to assume some of the other monsters probably do too.
  
  
• Other Doom art stuff. DOOMART1993.zip was a careful selection of stuff that Romero posted to Twitter but I suspect there's more where that came from. We know that the original graphics were in .lbm format so that .zip isn't a dump of the original source directory.
  
  
• Source code - we only have the LinuxDoom source and don't have the original DOS source code. It's possible he also has the source to the DMX sound library that goes with it, something that would be really useful to get better OPL emulation code. Potentially also source code to older versions of Doom (would be interesting to see the v1.2 source) and the various Unix ports.
  
  
• Utilities - we already have dmutils.zip that has the source code to various utilities used in Doom's development, and the recent levels dump included the BSP builder and "DoomPrint" sources. I doubt there's much more but you never know.
  
  
• Console port stuff - modified levels and graphics plus source code for the various console versions of Doom. The 3DO and Jaguar sources have already been published but maybe there's something interesting in the other ports.
  

[Blastfrog]

Danfun64 said:

I care, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Come on, it's not often devs release their old unused material to dedicated fans over nearly a quarter of a century later. Treat it like the prerelease builds of Doom 1 that have already been available for years. Please don't complain about this awesome turn of events, I prefer that Zenimax's sharks don't catch the smell of blood.

Danfun64 said:

I can't (really) code, I can't draw well, and I wasn't even born when Doom first came out. However, I admit that I am a little obsessed with licensing. [...] Maybe a little paranoid :P

And who are you? Danfun64, the premier legal authority of our time! Has no demonstrable modding skills, and presumably no law degree! I, for one, trust your well-established expert opinion, and that in no way is any of this sarcastic, frivolous or condescending!

[kb1]

fraggle said:

Which files? I'm not seeing it.


It's unlikely that he legally has the right to release any of this stuff. It's not like he works for id any more.

I'm pretty sure they all worked it out long ago. To be any other way is beyond my belief. And, certainly, morally, he should be free to choose to be cool about it, as are the others. Yikes (not aimed at fraggle, BTW).

[Wagi]

fraggle said:

Which files? I'm not seeing it.

I'm crazy, it's actually referencing 34 maps in a couple of places, not 36. (st_stuff.c and wi_stuff.c)

[Danfun64]

Sodaholic said:

And who are you? Danfun64, the premier legal authority of our time! Has no demonstrable modding skills, and presumably no law degree! I, for one, trust your well-established expert opinion, and that in no way is any of this sarcastic, frivolous or condescending!

OK! OK! I'm not a lawyer, and I admit the whole linking exception comment is ridiculous. I'll be stepping away now...

[Krazov]

You shouldn’t attack Danfun64 for having concerns. There is nothing wrong with having doubts. On April 30th Grooveshark has been taken down because of not proper securing licenses. So you know, those things can happen. And now that all this stuff has been released there’s always a second cycle if things would go legally awry.

[Gez]

License-wise, all that material should be considered to be "educative purposes only" and definitely not free software. DoomEd is the only thing that could be considered to be eligible for the GPL because it was meant to be released alongside Doom, but Bernt Kreimeier didn't want to bother unmangling the filenames.

fraggle said:

That said, with the level sources, unreleased music, artwork etc. the amount of stuff still private is rapidly diminishing.

Examples of stuff that hasn't been released would be:

• Sound effects stuff, like cut sound effects, and sources for some of the custom-made ones that Bobby Prince did. For example, years ago I'm sure I remember that Romero gave a friend of mine a copy of the original, undistorted version of the "To win the game you must kill me..." sample, on one occasion when he came on IRC. Unfortunately I think my friend lost it (this was over 15 years ago). But I'm pretty sure Romero must have that and a bunch of other stuff in his possession.
  
  
• Monster sprite source images. While doom-textures.zip included a bunch of powerup sprites (including some cut ones), the other sprites for monsters etc. were not included and had to be explicitly asked for. The zombie and player sprites are the most relevant because they had the extra rotations. But some of the zombie sprites had interesting bits on the sides and it's reasonable to assume some of the other monsters probably do too.
  
  
• Other Doom art stuff. DOOMART1993.zip was a careful selection of stuff that Romero posted to Twitter but I suspect there's more where that came from. We know that the original graphics were in .lbm format so that .zip isn't a dump of the original source directory.
  
  
• Source code - we only have the LinuxDoom source and don't have the original DOS source code. It's possible he also has the source to the DMX sound library that goes with it, something that would be really useful to get better OPL emulation code. Potentially also source code to older versions of Doom (would be interesting to see the v1.2 source) and the various Unix ports.
  
  
• Utilities - we already have dmutils.zip that has the source code to various utilities used in Doom's development, and the recent levels dump included the BSP builder and "DoomPrint" sources. I doubt there's much more but you never know.
  
  
• Console port stuff - modified levels and graphics plus source code for the various console versions of Doom. The 3DO and Jaguar sources have already been published but maybe there's something interesting in the other ports.
  

Utilities: well there's at least the Fuzzy Pumper Palette Shop!

Sound source: how about music source? Bobby Prince's original MIDIs before they were converted to MUS format.

Also, anything from Heretic and Hexen. Romero worked with Raven on them so he might have stuff.

[Avoozl]

I get the feeling that he might not be allowed to release any development stuff for Heretic/Hexen for some reason.

[Havoc Crow]

Come to think of it, do we have any of the development material from Wolfenstein 3-D?

[Dragonsbrethren]

Romero posted a few assets on his blog ages ago. Status bar icons showing a whole bunch of different interactions from the original Castle Wolfenstein. Looks like it's down right now, or I'd try to dig them up.

[fraggle]

Krazov said:

You shouldn’t attack Danfun64 for having concerns. There is nothing wrong with having doubts. On April 30th Grooveshark has been taken down because of not proper securing licenses. So you know, those things can happen. And now that all this stuff has been released there’s always a second cycle if things would go legally awry.

Haha, I should make clear that I'm not attacking Danfun. This whole forum has an obessively straight-edged attitude towards copyright and legal stuff, perhaps partly as a consequence of the hard line that the site has always taken against posting warez etc.

Of course it's important that copyright is taken seriously, especially with some projects like Freedoom where if it isn't taken seriously, it defeats the whole goal of the project. I myself have always personally been rather obsessively careful as a result.

However, I think it's also possible to take these kinds of discussions too far, beyond anything that's useful or relevant, and I'm certainly not singling out Danfun by any means. A lot of people seem to have a black and white view of things, where if your project contains a single pixel or line of copyrighted material, the entire thing is illegal as a result. This particularly often seems to be the case with programmers who all too often treat licenses like they're deterministic programs to be rigidly followed, which of course in practice isn't the case at all.

I just think it would be helpful to keep some perspective and remember that none of us are (to my knowledge) lawyers or legal experts and our collective armchair pontificatings about copyright and the law are a bunch of hot air that is probably wrong anyway.

Regarding the stuff that Romero posted here: I doubt he has any kind of legal "right" to be releasing any of this stuff and so any license he could attach to it probably wouldn't be valid. The practicalities of this situation are whether (1) anybody really cares (at Id / Zenimax) and (2) whether anyone is likely to suffer any kind of legal consequences as a result. I think the answer is almost certainly no, and no.

Rather than obsess about this stuff, much better to just appreciate it for what it is: a bunch of really cool and interesting stuff, previously unseen, from Doom's development, and which we'd probably never have seen from Id / Zenimax nowadays. I'm just grateful we get to see this at all.

Gez said:

License-wise, all that material should be considered to be "educative purposes only" and definitely not free software. DoomEd is the only thing that could be considered to be eligible for the GPL because it was meant to be released alongside Doom, but Bernt Kreimeier didn't want to bother unmangling the filenames.

Goes without saying, but nothing should be considered GPL unless it's released by the current copyright owner (ie. id) with the GPL attached.

Utilities: well there's at least the Fuzzy Pumper Palette Shop!

Sound source: how about music source? Bobby Prince's original MIDIs before they were converted to MUS format.

These would also be great to see. The .lbm files that have been released (textures, sprites etc.) by Romero look like they could be screenshots from the tool - I guess perhaps the save format was an .lbm dump of the screen.

We've seen MIDI releases of the unreleased music tracks already but it would certainly be nice to get the original MIDIs for the released tracks too, if only to get more data for the wiki's music inspiration page.

Also, anything from Heretic and Hexen. Romero worked with Raven on them so he might have stuff.

Would be nice, though I'm pretty doubtful he has anything. It's clear that he has a CD with a copy of the Doom development tree but I wouldn't expect that to include the other games. Id published Heretic and Hexen but it's not clear how much they were involved in their development.

Certainly we've heard that Raven used NeXT machines to make their Doom engine games too, and that they had the Doom source and development tools to do that. But were they even based in the same city?