The DWmegawad Club plays: Valiant

[esselfortium]

Jaws In Space said:

I disagree with Tarnsman, I don't really like Valiant, but I also think that it is a good map set. The problem I have with wads like Valiant & others is that they play it extremely safe & stick to a "Good map" formula. I feel like the authors of these maps go trough a checklist on each map to make sure that they made none of the bad map mistakes. Do I have an open layout with many directions to go, check, do I have monsters attacking from multiple directions putting pressure on the player, check, does my map have simple clean design yet a good amount of detailing, check, did I make any 64 wide corridors, no, and so on and so forth. It's a formula designed to ensure good maps, but the problem is that the maps start to feel samey & repetitive, does that make it bad? Not really, as a whole Megawad perhaps, but I couldn't say any of the individual levels are bad. This formula for good maps can work when used in small amounts such as with small maps or by just doing an episode, but when you keep doing it over & over again for 32 level it simply just starts to become quite dull. I think that it's perfectly reasonable to say that that I don't like Valiant, but would I say it's a bad wad? Absolutely not.

I think this is just the nearly-inevitable result of having 32 maps all made by the same person. There are repeated design tropes shared between Erik Alm's maps, there are a different set of tropes common to Espi's maps, there are even tropes shared between Valkiriforce's decidedly-not-modern-styled-at-all maps. You pretty much know what to expect when you load up a map by any of them. There are variations on those themes and any of them can surprise you, but most artists in any field have certain things that they tend to do because they like seeing those things, and aren't perpetually reinventing themselves.

[Tarnsman]

Jaws In Space said:

Nonsense

Art is subjective so this "I don't like it but it's still good" nonsense needs to stop. No, it's not still good. There is no technical checklist for what makes something good or bad in art beyond "I do/don't like this". If you don't like something don't jump through hoops to come to its defense while saying you don't like it. Furthermore saying "yeah this is good but..." followed by a list of hipster "it's not bad enough for me to enjoy" crap further devalues your opinion as nothing more than contrarian bullshit. Don't be Memfis, we already have Memfis. It's okay for you to dislike something for the very reasons other people like it.

Take ALT for example. I fucking loathe ALT. Now say someone else really likes ALT. If you asked him to describe what he likes about it and you asked me to describe what I hated about it they'd probably be the same things. If the best criticism you have for something is "it's too good" then you've fucked up.

Edit: It's so easy in fact let me demonstrate. "I didn't particularly enjoy Valiant, I felt that the diversity in the mapset was superficial and the core elements did not change enough to keep me interested across all 32 maps. As such it became stale and I lost interest. 5/10. Probably would not play again" See how fucking easy that is? And you're actually conveying a real thing and not "It's not bad enough for me to enjoy, fuck good maps I'm too busy understanding that real doom mapping is shitty mapping".

[40oz]

Everything I disagree with needs to stop.

compulsive posting much?

[AD_79]

Jaws In Space said:

The problem I have with wads like Valiant & others is that they play it extremely safe & stick to a "Good map" formula. I feel like the authors of these maps go trough a checklist on each map to make sure that they made none of the bad map mistakes. Do I have an open layout with many directions to go, check, do I have monsters attacking from multiple directions putting pressure on the player, check, does my map have simple clean design yet a good amount of detailing, check, did I make any 64 wide corridors, no, and so on and so forth. It's a formula designed to ensure good maps, but the problem is that the maps start to feel samey & repetitive, does that make it bad? Not really, as a whole Megawad perhaps, but I couldn't say any of the individual levels are bad. This formula for good maps can work when used in small amounts such as with small maps or by just doing an episode, but when you keep doing it over & over again for 32 level it simply just starts to become quite dull.

Are you suggesting we put bad maps into our megawads to keep them "interesting"?

[Breezeep]

"Hurr Durr Valiant is too good 4 me. It has too many good elements and I rather play boring average or shitty wads instead."

[Capellan]

AD_79 said:

Are you suggesting we put bad maps into our megawads to keep them "interesting"?

I think he is suggesting that one single formula - even a formula that adheres to the generally agreed principles of "good mapping" - can become homogenous and uninteresting after a while. Consider TV shows that never vary their formula for a similar example of how familiarity can breed ... let's call it disinterest.

For another example of a similar philosophy, ironically enough, consider the D2TWID credo of "leave it in". Obviously the motivation there was authenticity over the platonic ideal of good mapping, but it is still the case that sometimes, informed and clever use of the "wrong thing" can be better than simply doing the "right thing", according to a checklist.

Now, whether Valiant really suffers a surfeit of "checklist mapping" will depend on individual tastes, and I certainly can't say one way or the other since I didn't play it.

But the idea that sometimes a blemish or two can improve the overall product is hardly a new or controversial one. Cindy Crawford, anyone?

[Gez]

"The problem of the Doom community, you see," *puffs on pipe thoughtfully* "is that too many of the maps are good. What we need is an onslaught of shitty maps to trudge through, so that when a good map appears it feels fresh again. Truly, the Terry clan is the unsung hero we did not know we needed."

Here's a suggestion for a coming DWMWC: the /terrywad folder.

[Suitepee]

http://www.twitch.tv/johnsuitepee/c/6777226 = part 4a.
http://www.twitch.tv/johnsuitepee/c/6777240 = part 4b of my playthrough, covering maps 25-30. (UV, continuous)

4 out of 5 Valiant gets from me. I liked the diversity and creativity of the megawad, but goddamn did I hate all the sniping!

I really liked the secret encounter on map 27, despite not having played Lunatic beforehand to appreciate the reference fully. (although now I know what to expect when I get around to playing Lunatic!) Having an episode happen on the Moon is cool.
Episode 5 had some awkward maps but wasn't anywhere near as irritating as E4, and it's always nice to see a megawad end with a custom boss fight.....which I managed to "cheese" using the 2-shot BFG trick!

Fun stuff, now to prepare for the dreaded Scythe 2 endgame....

[Magnusblitz]

Tarnsman said:

Edit: It's so easy in fact let me demonstrate. "I didn't particularly enjoy Valiant, I felt that the diversity in the mapset was superficial and the core elements did not change enough to keep me interested across all 32 maps. As such it became stale and I lost interest. 5/10. Probably would not play again" See how fucking easy that is? And you're actually conveying a real thing and not "It's not bad enough for me to enjoy, fuck good maps I'm too busy understanding that real doom mapping is shitty mapping".

Right, it's not unreasonable to say something like "each map taken alone would be good, but together they're 32 maps of too much similarlity and so for me the megawad suffers."

[Breezeep]

^

Agreed.

[Tarnsman]

Magnusblitz said:

Right, it's not unreasonable to say something like "each map taken alone would be good, but together they're 32 maps of too much similarlity and so for me the megawad suffers."

That's fine, you're not blaming some mythical mapping checklist for all of the megawads problems. You're saying you got bored with it. You're not saying "this is too good, I wish it was more bad because bad things are good"

[40oz]

In the future you should just write everyone's posts for them.

[esselfortium]

Please stop bitching about people bitching about other peoples' bitching. This is getting too inceptiony.

[Tarnsman]

Thank you 40oz for feeling the need to be the Doomworld version of that one guy who always says "we can't discriminate against people who discriminate against other people because then we're discriminating!"

[Breezeep]

This thread sure is going places.

[dobu gabu maru]

If you kids can't calm down back there I'll turn this club around and pick Eternal Doom in July so no one will have fun

[Breezeep]

What's wrong with Eternal Doom, anyway?

[SyntherAugustus]

dobu gabu maru said:

If you kids can't calm down back there I'll turn this club around and pick Eternal Doom in July so no one will have fun

But I like Eternal Doom!

Edit: About Valiant, I liked it very much since it was the first megawad in a long time that introduced new monsters and knew what to do with them in a traditional levelset sense. It was nice that the pyroknight had a somewhat unique attack while the cybruiser was a more dangerous baron will hellknight health. Arachnorbs and Supermancs were a bit redundant, but it was nice to see them anyway.

[Pirx]

i'm a bit surprised about this "valiant is too good" discussion. i agree with capellan that most maps seem made using a formula: openness, connectivity, crossfire, enough health to make "playing rambo" possible, and the triple key exit. just like people say that plutonia and its sequels is mostly throwing chaingunners, revenants and archviles at the player in a jungle & ruins setting. which makes many maps rather similar. however, skillsaw has avoided this by dividing the megawad into episodes with distinct themes. now it's true that every map looks very btsx-like polished, which stems from the mapper's skill, but what should he have done, built blocky rooms here and there just to make them stand out?

as for the monsters, i can'T stand it when someone adds random unfitting creatures from realm667 to his maps so they stand out like a sore thumb. on the contrary, they should blend in with the traditional enemies, and i think this worked very well in valiant. i wrote that the blood rivers of candlecove seem the natural habitat of cacos and arachnorbs, cybruisers fit the technological lunar scenario, and vanilla imps and pinkies seem now slow and weak. sure, i complained in several posts about the never ending crossfire which comes with such high speed attacks (yesterday's insanity, anyone), but at least they'Re not unavoidable with some skill and ingenuity. thanks demon of the well for his entertaining fda's showing how maps can be beaten without knowing them beforehand, something i had my troubles with mostly because of bullheadedly ignoring alternatives.

[AD_79]

Pirx said:

i agree with capellan that most maps seem made using a formula: openness, connectivity, crossfire, enough health to make "playing rambo" possible, and the triple key exit.

That's just the skillsaw style of mapping, and I really enjoy it. All 32 maps of it.

[skillsaw]

I had really been hoping to do some commentary on Valiant maps and what my plans and thoughts were with each map but unfortunately I've just been too busy recently to do so, and now the month is gone. Still, thanks to all for your comments, videos, and demos, I know I am going to have a lot of fun going through them.

[AD_79]

skillsaw said:

I had really been hoping to do some commentary on Valiant maps and what my plans and thoughts were with each map but unfortunately I've just been too busy recently to do so, and now the month is gone. Still, thanks to all for your comments, videos, and demos, I know I am going to have a lot of fun going through them.

I'd be interested in seeing the commentary regardless of what month it is.

[esselfortium]

AD_79 said:

I'd be interested in seeing the commentary regardless of what month it is.

Count me in as well!

[Demon of the Well]

AD_79 said:

I'd be interested in seeing the commentary regardless of what month it is.

[Capellan]

Yarp.

[Pirx]

yes please.

[kmxexii]

AD_79 said:

I'd be interested in seeing the commentary regardless of what month it is.

[dobu gabu maru]

AD_79 said:

I'd be interested in seeing the commentary regardless of what month it is.

Definitely. IMO The best thing this club produces is developer commentary on their own maps, and it's always welcome regardless of the season.

[Lingyan203]

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLgS1ZoidySwM9lFZQ7Jsp7LY-2hxV67sa

Here's my playthrough of Valiant! Sorry I posted this too late. I hope it's still accepted lol