We gotta figure out what those Russians are doing.

[rgerber]

DooM_RO said:

John Carmack said a few years ago (before the reboot) "Doom 4 is more of a cinematic experience"(don't remember the source). I guess he was referring to this.

Please, please let me also citate John Carmack, somewhere in the 90's development of Doom/Quake following:

"Story in a game is like a story in a porn movie." -John Carmack

[Clonehunter]

Jaxxoon R said:

If anything a serious interpretation of Doom would just be bizarre surreal horror, not Hunger Games with an oppressive demon government.

Sounds like the second Doom novel.

Also, I bet that's Arlene Sanders, not Crash.

[Touchdown]

I honestly don't understand this extreme negativity. I mean, this project is long dead and you're all acting so offended as if you want id to hear you even though they've already changed the direction years ago. And really, if you think this is horrible then you've never seen anything really boring and generic in your life.

hfc2x said:

That scene reeks of "let's show those demons who's boss" Hollywood cliché. I don't see why would you include that in a Doom game, unless you don't know what you're doing.

Yeah, because the last line of Earth's defense at the brink of humanity's extinction would not need any motivation to keep on fighting... By the way, trope is not a cliche.

Death Metal 2000 said:

A lot of games today are grey, and if they're not grey they're exclusively using one set of hues instead of taking advantage of multiple themes.

I've been hearing this argument for over a decade. "Games don't have colors." Funny, because I've never had a problem with that. A lot of games that have a lot of colors go so overboard with them that they look cartoony. Not all of them but it's easy to go too far. Faded colors at least will not make something look exaggerated. Anyway, I've always been leaning more towards stalker/Metro style than a saturated colors vomit.

[Koko Ricky]

The problem is that some games try to achieve a cinematic look by putting ugly or unnecessary filters over the game. There are not enough artisans outside of the video game field overseeing these games and saying, "This looks stupid." It's not just the Brown Problem. Overuse of bloom, lens flares, depth-of-field, exposure changes, shaky cam, dust in the lens, smudges, flares, coronas, etc., it can make a game look really bad when not implemented with restraint.

[Death Metal 2000]

Touchdown said:

I've been hearing this argument for over a decade. "Games don't have colors." Funny, because I've never had a problem with that. A lot of games that have a lot of colors go so overboard with them that they look cartoony. Not all of them but it's easy to go too far. Faded colors at least will not make something look exaggerated. Anyway, I've always been leaning more towards stalker/Metro style than a saturated colors vomit.

And a lot of games with faded colours look depressing and drab so...

GoatLord said:

The problem is that some games try to achieve a cinematic look by putting ugly or unnecessary filters over the game. There are not enough artisans outside of the video game field overseeing these games and saying, "This looks stupid." It's not just the Brown Problem. Overuse of bloom, lens flares, depth-of-field, exposure changes, shaky cam, dust in the lens, smudges, flares, coronas, etc., it can make a game look really bad when not implemented with restraint.

Exactly, and they always go overboard with it in modern games. Especially with shit on your screen and depth of field. Not to mention lower FOV, in a lot of games where you can't change it.

[Shaviro]

Death Metal 2000 said:

stuff

Before coming off like a dickhead you should re-read your own post where you stated all games today are grey or brown. Sure, that's obviously an exaggeration, but even so it's just plain *WRONG*. Also, the point of higher bit color is to get away from primary colors and get more gradients to create a more visually appealing image.

I haven't played watchdogs, but a simple google image search reveals plenty of color. I've played wolfenstein TNO and while it does have a lot of grey it also has lots of color. You also have to keep in mind that colors serve a purpose. A typical scene in the nazi strongholds, prisons etc. would be grey and depressing while the resistance safehouse was warm and inviting.

Either way. Games today have lots and lots of color. They're just not primary colors and good riddance for that. It would look like shit.

[hfc2x]

Touchdown said:

Yeah, because the last line of Earth's defense at the brink of humanity's extinction would not need any motivation to keep on fighting... By the way, trope is not a cliche.

We've seen thousands of stories just like what you mention over the years.

And no, a trope is a literary resource which helps structuring the story. A cliché is something that's overused to the point it's expected and predictable (yes, this very scene).

[Koko Ricky]

Death Metal 2000 said:

And a lot of games with faded colours look depressing and drab so...



Exactly, and they always go overboard with it in modern games. Especially with shit on your screen and depth of field. Not to mention lower FOV, in a lot of games where you can't change it.

Depth of field can look great when done right. I think they go overboard because they're afraid it won't be apparent unless it's exaggerated. But they way it's usually programmed, it ends up looking like the camera's aperture is all the way open! Game dev artists need to look at more movies and realize that depth of field is far more subtle than it's portrayed in most games.

[Touchdown]

hfc2x said:

We've seen thousands of stories just like what you mention over the years.

And no, a trope is a literary resource which helps structuring the story. A cliché is something that's overused to the point it's expected and predictable (yes, this very scene).

And you're saying this in reference to DOOM... Ok. An invasion of monsters on Earth/remote base... Sounds like a totally original story that would surely be free of 'expected and predictable' elements! Besides, if fighters screaming 'yeah!' before going into the fight is such a bad thing... Then I guess pretty much everything is.

[Jaxxoon R]

He didn't say that it was bad, just that it was expected and predictable.

Also, this is an invasion of hell and demons on a remote base, that was sort of a new and badass idea at the time. The only reason it isn't now is because well, Doom did it.

[geo]

About the discussion of lack of color, to be fair, cities are devoid of color. Living downtown in a city, I had forgotten how uncolored it is compared to the smaller area I came from. Not to get all hippy, but I miss green and blue, its so beautiful. Sure I can look up and see the sky at any time, but when I'm not looking up its just all so dull and ugly. Even with parks around, its just not enough. I need to see blue hitting green in my life. I just didn't realize I was going crazy until I experienced what I had forgotten.

[Koko Ricky]

I dunno, I live in Dallas and I'm in downtown a lot. It's fairly colorful. Lots of blue, black, grey, green, brown.

[Touchdown]

Jaxxoon R said:

He didn't say that it was bad, just that it was expected and predictable.

Yeah, but pretty much everything in that setting will be.

geo said:

About the discussion of lack of color, to be fair, cities are devoid of color. Living downtown in a city, I had forgotten how uncolored it is compared to the smaller area I came from. Not to get all hippy, but I miss green and blue, its so beautiful. Sure I can look up and see the sky at any time, but when I'm not looking up its just all so dull and ugly. Even with parks around, its just not enough. I need to see blue hitting green in my life. I just didn't realize I was going crazy until I experienced what I had forgotten.

That reminds me of playing stalker. When the sun is shining and there are bright colors and lots of shadows, the scenery looks beautiful. But when it's cloudy, it's kind of bland and depressing. But that's how it is in real life. A ruined city with a lot of fluff and dust and the sky covered with thick clouds would not be very colorful.

[illYay1337]

I think I saw these screenshots a while ago and was disappointed even then. They lack any kind of personality. It doesn't look futuristic and shiny, but instead like some boring and generic outdoors areas. I remember seeing DooM 3 screenshots back in the day and drooling over how awesome they looked. So much color and shininess (in the parts that weren't darkness :D) and badass scifi themed interiors that remind me of my favorite movies like Aliens. I look at those leaked screenshots and think about how that's a game I wouldn't even be interested in playing.

It seems like Color Grading is a bit overused nowadays and is what gives it such a uniform bland look.

I sometimes go back and replay DooM 3 or Quake 3 or some other older games and love how pure and clean everything looks without all these blur filters and bloom everywhere. No color grading, so all the colors are as they are instead of being faded to some other color to make the scene look all monochrome.

I remember depth of field being pretty damn cool in CoD 4 back in the day when you aim down the sight. It would only blur parts of the gun. Now it can be a bit overused, especially in a few places in Wolf TNO. If you use it sparingly it can add a lot, but overuse can be bad.

I myself would avoid Color grading on anything I ever make, except for maybe cutscenes or special areas that need to evoke a certain emotion like a creepy room that looks very red.

[Death Metal 2000]

Shaviro said:

Before coming off like a dickhead you should re-read your own post where you stated all games today are grey or brown. Sure, that's obviously an exaggeration, but even so it's just plain *WRONG*. Also, the point of higher bit color is to get away from primary colors and get more gradients to create a more visually appealing image.

I haven't played watchdogs, but a simple google image search reveals plenty of color. I've played wolfenstein TNO and while it does have a lot of grey it also has lots of color. You also have to keep in mind that colors serve a purpose. A typical scene in the nazi strongholds, prisons etc. would be grey and depressing while the resistance safehouse was warm and inviting.

Either way. Games today have lots and lots of color. They're just not primary colors and good riddance for that. It would look like shit.

All games today ARE grey and brown, where have you been? The only exceptions are the Far Cry series, several RPGs and retro-esque games.

Source to that claim please? Also it's not really appealing when all you get on your screen is colour grade looking shit which is just exclusively orange, brown, blue or grey alongside other shit like depth of field and particles on your screen.

No it's really just the same old blue and grey, go and play the game and you'll see what I mean.

It does have other colours, but it's primarily grey. Even the resistance hideout had mostly grey/drab textures with orange lighting.

GO and play a modern FPS some time and you'll see what I mean. A lot of FPS games today are really boring to look at, the colours they use do not provoke interest for me and a lot of other people. I'm not the only one here who realises how terrible it looks.

potnop said:It seems like Color Grading is a bit overused nowadays and is what gives it such a uniform bland look.

I sometimes go back and replay DooM 3 or Quake 3 or some other older games and love how pure and clean everything looks without all these blur filters and bloom everywhere. No color grading, so all the colors are as they are instead of being faded to some other color to make the scene look all monochrome.

I myself would avoid Color grading on anything I ever make, except for maybe cutscenes or special areas that need to evoke a certain emotion like a creepy room that looks very red. [/B]

Yeah, I think that's the main issue with games today. Even if a games textures have vibrant colours, they get ruined by colour grading. It's like I am looking at a game which is supposed to look vibrant, but has blue or orange filters placed over everything. I also think this is an issue with movies as well.

geo said:

About the discussion of lack of color, to be fair, cities are devoid of color. Living downtown in a city, I had forgotten how uncolored it is compared to the smaller area I came from. Not to get all hippy, but I miss green and blue, its so beautiful. Sure I can look up and see the sky at any time, but when I'm not looking up its just all so dull and ugly. Even with parks around, its just not enough. I need to see blue hitting green in my life. I just didn't realize I was going crazy until I experienced what I had forgotten.

Of course, but even then in real life it doesn't look like you are wearing blue or orange shades over your eyes constantly. And games can be realistic if they want, for me I don't play games for realism, quite the opposite really.

[Obzen]

potnop said:

I sometimes go back and replay DooM 3 or Quake 3 or some other older games and love how pure and clean everything looks without all these blur filters and bloom everywhere. No color grading, so all the colors are as they are instead of being faded to some other color to make the scene look all monochrome.

This is something I feel John Carmack cared a lot about. I remember at one of the Quakecon keynotes he was talking about Rage and "postprocessing filters" saying he didn't want them "mucking up all those beautiful pixels". He ultimately succumbed to the artists wishes, and it's a shame, I feel.

The problem with many Artists in the game industry these days is they don't take actual gameplay and immersion into account. Sure, all that chromatic aberration, film grain, motion blur, Depth of Field, lens flairs and simulated dust and grime looks neat in a screenshot, but it takes you out of the game world, makes it harder to see what you're doing, and is a huge waste of resources.

[Face23785]

Death Metal 2000 said:

a bunch of nonsense

Dude you're being absurd. I'm not the biggest fan of modern games, but get a grip. *screenshot of machines, made out of metal* "WHY ARE THEY GREY, WTF!?!?!!" *screenshot of buildings* "WHERE'S THE FUCKING NEON GREEN AND BLUE AND RED IT'S ALL GREEEEY LIKE IT'S MADE OUT OF CONCRETE OR SOME OTHER MATERIAL NOT USED IN BUILDINGS!!!" *screenshot of city streets* "OOOOOOOMFG ARE YOU KIDDING ME!? GREY/BLACK ASPHALT STREETS?!?! PUT IN SOME YELLOW BRICK ROADS!!"

There's likely grey in every game. Doom had plenty of grey, in places where the stuff they were trying to represent was grey. Wolfenstein using grey Nazi uniforms? Who the fuck are they trying to be all accurate and shit? Give them rainbow uniforms to please this clown.

[geo]

Death Metal 2000 said:

Of course, but even then in real life it doesn't look like you are wearing blue or orange shades over your eyes constantly. And games can be realistic if they want, for me I don't play games for realism, quite the opposite really.

Agreed. I like video games that look like video games. I don't understand the blue or orange shades. Is that a reference to modern games?

About the filters. I can't stand them. Even motion blur.

[doom_is_great]

Well, the Doom teaser looked like it had some interesting colors in the background. Some bright red and yellow lights behind the revenant. Of course there was a lot of grey too, but I am already pleased with the use of colors.

Man, I wish that it was June 14th already. I WANT TO SEE THE DEMO SO DAMN BAAAAAAAD!

[Shaviro]

Death Metal 2000 said:

Source to that claim please?

Source to claim what?
You're the one making absolutely absurd claims, so naturally you should be the one supplying sources. So far all you have done is more or less state that if it's not a rainbow, it's grey or brown. It's like having a discussion with someone who claims 2 + 2 is 1.

[quakke]

Shaviro said:

Source to claim what?
You're the one making absolutely absurd claims, so naturally you should be the one supplying sources. So far all you have done is more or less state that if it's not a rainbow, it's grey or brown. It's like having a discussion with someone who claims 2 + 2 is 1.

Tbh, games are nowadays alot more colorless than back in the day. Play Duke Nukem Forever and then watch the DNF footage from 2007 version and see how much more colorful even it is. It has same scenes only this time they aren't nearly as depressing as in the final game because the devs back then still had their own thing going on.

New Order isn't either very colorful game compared to forexample to Quake 4 or Prey.

[Shaviro]

Rose tintet glasses.
An all time classic like Dark Forces is pretty damn grey

So was Jedi Knight

Doom was predominately Grey, brown and drab green.

Quake was brown-fest

Even Duke Nukem 3D which is often perceived as very colorful uses pretty drab/washed out colors

Remember RTCW? It looked like this

What games back then did really well was using the majority of the palette for the mostly drab bread & butter locales and then reserve the more vibrant colors for highlights and areas of importance. This too is what they do today.

The biggest difference today is that a cornerstone in modern graphics is the blurring of different stages of the render to make things look right and smooth. This will of course blend more colors than if you didn't and wash out the colors if used incorrectly. But all games today being grey? That's an absurd claim.

[Avoozl]

While the older games also had a lot of grey and brown there's still signs of a greater extent of palette colours than there is today.

A lot of new games use new shaders and lighting techniques to apply monotonous colours at a higer level, but that doesn't discount the fact that some textures are already made that way with limited colours applied.

I've played a lot of older games I missed recently and a lot of new games and have found a more noticeable difference.

[ReFracture]

Well stated Shaviro. Honestly when it comes to 'colorful' first person shooters the only thing that readily comes to mind now is Borderlands 2, a 2011 release.. but even then only some parts of it.. it gets kind of drab at times.

The problem with modern shooters is of the design nature, not so much art.

[quakke]

Shaviro said:

Rose tintet glasses.
An all time classic like Dark Forces is pretty damn grey

So was Jedi Knight

Doom was predominately Grey, brown and drab green.

Quake was brown-fest

Even Duke Nukem 3D which is often perceived as very colorful uses pretty drab/washed out colors

Remember RTCW? It looked like this

What games back then did really well was using the majority of the palette for the mostly drab bread & butter locales and then reserve the more vibrant colors for highlights and areas of importance. This too is what they do today.

The biggest difference today is that a cornerstone in modern graphics is the blurring of different stages of the render to make things look right and smooth. This will of course blend more colors than if you didn't and wash out the colors if used incorrectly. But all games today being grey? That's an absurd claim.

"Rose tinted glasses"

Haha, Ignorant Mind much.. :)


Wolfenstein The New Order, an extremely colorful game

Duke Nukem 3D, a very colorless game

The Ultimate DOOM, another colorless game


edit: found a video that shows this better than i can.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZwKp2d3I10

[Marnetmar]

What the fuck do you expect a concrete bunker to look like? A ball pit?

[Touchdown]

There aren't really that many games without a reasonable array of colors. Diablo(1) or Quake might serve as examples of games with a very limited palette, more recently Hatred or Limbo or something.

But pretty much everything else that has been mentioned can easily be countered by screenshots from different locations. Take a shot from a bunker and it's grey. Take one from the outside of an asylum or from the bridge level or from the moon base and it's colorful. Same goes for DOOM, Duke3D and everything else.

But the bottom line is, there are tons of colorful games. Take BioShock, Sunset Overdrive, Diablo III, StarCraft II, Ethan Carter, Shadow Warrior, XCOM: EU, Portal 2, Half-Life 2 + episodes, Overwatch...

I think someone's confusing lack of cartoony, oversaturated colors with no color variety. But anyway, it's clear those folks are blindly devoted to their spoiled point of view.

[Face23785]

quakke said:

"Rose tinted glasses"

Haha, Ignorant Mind much.. :)


Wolfenstein The New Order, an extremely colorful game

Duke Nukem 3D, a very colorless game

The Ultimate DOOM, another colorless game


edit: found a video that shows this better than i can.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZwKp2d3I10

Just saying, there's alot of grey in that Doom pic. Other colors are present as well, but that doesn't seem to matter, as there are other colors present in the other pics as well. Not to mention a single screenshot of a cherry-picked area showing what you want to show doesn't really prove anything. Everyone has their mind made up and they're only seeing what they want.

[DooM_RO]

Holy shit, this thread has 83000 views.

One of those viewers HAS to be an Id employee. If someone from Id is reading this YOU FUCKED UP but I appreciate the fact that you had the courage to scrap this version. You guys had better not fuck up Doom 4. People are pretty defensive about this franchise.

[Marnetmar]

DooM_RO said:

Holy shit, this thread has 83000 views.

One of those viewers HAS to be an Id employee. If someone from Id is reading this YOU FUCKED UP but I appreciate the fact that you had the courage to scrap this version. You guys had better not fuck up Doom 4. People are pretty defensive about this franchise.

Calm your shit.