Can the Gameplay Work?

[Dylanblitz]

I might as well say this but I'm very worried about the Gameplay in the upcoming Doom, Why, well because i don't really know if a modern shooter can also be a old school in a way like doom was. Serious Sam 3 almost got it right but from what I've heard SS3 was criticized for its poor level design and bad vs Multiplayer. Can a a Revenant with a jet pack work? Can fast strafing work in this reboot to a classic Game? Well I Guess we will have to wait and see

[Doomkid]

I have a good feeling these levels will be designed well, I can't wait to see hard evidence that proves it though.

[RaikohZX]

DoomKid123 said:

I might as well say this but I'm very worried about the Gameplay in the upcoming Doom, Why, well because i don't really know if a modern shooter can also be a old school in a way like doom was. Serious Sam 3 almost got it right but from what I've heard SS3 was criticized for its poor level design and bad vs Multiplayer. Can a a Revenant with a jet pack work? Can fast strafing work in this reboot to a classic Game? Well I Guess we will have to wait and see

Well, let's recap what we know (not like it hasn't been done a million times already probably). Fast action, no reloads, double-jumps and climbing meaning areas have more of an emphasis on verticality. Enemies like the Revenants will be able to chase you with their aforementioned jetpacks, and apparently the Hellknights can clamber and chase on-foot after you while also potentially smacking things like rockets aside. There's also a new emphasis on 'karate-like moves', where the Marine tears apart enemies with his bare hands in rapid succession and can get health bonuses for it.

The level and combat design is the big decider here, whether it's more akin to Wolfenstein: The New Order where they put you in a room with a specific set of enemies and all of that room's advantages or disadvantages are up to you to utilize, or they do it more like Doom 3 where there's lots of linear corridors and fake walls for enemies to try and entrap you from all directions around.

[Koko Ricky]

Doom 3's level design was problematic because it only provided the illusion of non-linearity by having occasional rooms branch off into just one or two more rooms. truly non-linear design involves the ability to have two or more areas being simultaneously explorable, or having an area cleverly bridge itself to another area. The reveal showed us none of that, but only because the demo was meant to showcase the combat. Given that (as I've said in other threads) what was shown was so intent on bringing back so many of things we love about Doom--intense combat, speed, moody atmosphere, visceral gore, arcade-y gameplay--it would be a surprise, actually, if id were to ignore the level design aspect.

[Amph]

i'm concerned about this too, i'm tired of those scrypt linear games, i want levels like maze, super complex, where literally you get lost by exploring it, not someone telling me where i need to go...

[geo]

Amph said:

i'm concerned about this too, i'm tired of those scrypt linear games, i want levels like maze, super complex, where literally you get lost by exploring it, not someone telling me where i need to go...

I can see the Steam reviews now "got lost, lost interest. would uninstall again lolz 11/10"

Anyway "linear" levels all revolve around how easy is it to map? 3D editors are a time consuming bitch now. Its not the editor, its the time consuming details that come with each pathway that leads to what could be a dead end or an alternate route.

[nxGangrel]

I say it does. Just because a game is "next gen" and has got great graphics doesn't necessarily mean fast old school run and gun gameplay can't work, in my opinion. It ust really hasn't been done because of all the modern military bullshit that's every where.

[40oz]

I wouldn't look at serious Sam 3 as a decent modern example of attempting to combine OK'd school gameplay with competitively impressive visuals. I played coop on it with my cousins for the first three levels, and while I found the combat with the game fun, I was let down by the instant kill unlimited melee attacks that made shooting a chore in comparison. The level design was also pretty bad, as the very first level was a mazey confusing mess. Everything being crumbled and damaged made it difficult to see where to go, especially with the extreme contrast and horribly washed out color.

The second level was a symmetrical copy paste fest, and the third level was the second level in reverse! I was bored to tears after that. I don't think the speed of the player or the projectile dodging or quantity of enemies had a negative impact on my experience though. DOOM is a great game, but a bad level can ruin it for you.

[Kaskaum]

SS3 is an example of what would be a modern Doom set on earth. The simple level design is due to the fact that it's not easy to make a cool level design if you deal with real, non-abstract scenarios. Real scnarios are made in order to be easy for people to go through, not to get lost.

Doom 2 was set on earth but it doesn't look anything even close to earth locations.

Just look at the video of the old-abandoned version of Doom 4 that would be set on earth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdjjeJk28HM

[Deleted_Account]

Well if Doom 4 fails, than I guess the series is done.

[quakke]

Let's not go there please.

Doom is the game that showed fps really is a thing. I would hate it to be gone and be stuck with these slowpaced linear ironsight games.

[nxGangrel]

Now thinking about, I really really hope there won't be a turret section(s). Period.

[Antroid]

But how about fighting off waves of monsters while an incredibly slow elevator is coming down to your level?
Doom 3 took that to a quite ridiculous level with that freaking two meter ladder that took like 10 minutes to deploy while you were killing spiders.

I mainly hope that the gameplay and level design won't be constructed in the way of many modern shooters - where you come to a clearly defined combat area, which is structured kind of like a miniature deathmatch map, a whole bunch of monsters are released into it, you kill them all, a door opens and you walk for a bit, soon coming to another area like that. I'm so sick and tired of that structure. Wolfenstein TNO was like that a lot, and also bioshock infinite if I remember correctly. Probably many other games which I simply haven't played.

Also on SS3, the "poor level design" criticism was mainly due to the first bunch of levels that many people (not me though, I enjoyed the whole game thoroughly) found to be dull in gameplay, and also the fact that the later part of the game - the one more representative of what it is as a whole and what it is trying to do - is mainly deserts with a bunch of walls and columns everywhere. Basically, lack of verticality. I would say it worked perfectly for SS3's enemies and gameplay though. I honestly would not be upset in the slightest if D4 doesn't have a lot of verticality either. I never saw it as essential. Kinda wary about the double jump though (and the melee finishers) - I don't want the protag to be a superhuman badass who mows down hordes of demons effortlessly.

[ChickenOrBeef]

I bought Ziggurat recently because it's a fast-paced, old-school style shooter with non-linear levels, but the combat encounters are all "kill rooms", as explained above. Go to a big room, a bunch of enemies spawn and the doors lock around you, then you kill them and move on.

I'm hoping for a more natural approach in Doom 4.

[Antroid]

Well, Ziggurat takes it to ridiculous extremes. It's closer to, like, a Binding of Isaac FPS than anything IMO.

But yeah. Here's to hoping that Doom 4 has more sprawling and non-restrictive levels where you don't just follow waypoint after waypoint, being carefully directed through a roller coaster of hellish scenery. I kinda miss looking for a way to progress, exploring nonlinear stuff and stuff like that. Encountering demons in random places as they patrol the layout at the same time as you're navigating through it would be cool too.

[SavageCorona]

Serious Sam 3 is a poor example to compare to Doom. Even the first Serious Sam wasn't supposed to be comparable to Doom in the same way. Serious Sam was about big open environments and giant hordes, not mazes with enemies dotted around to create challenges. I think a better modern example to compare to Doom is Rise of the Triad 2013, a very well made retro shooter for the modern age with fancy Unreal graphics (though not exactly the best looking ever) combined with the fast frenetic action of the past. If they can pull off ROTT in the way they did 2 years ago, they can probably pull off Doom 4 in the same way.

Also Ziggurat is a roguelite FPS rather than a Doom style game. It does take a lot of hints from Quake in the gameplay style department but it's not supposed to be the same as Doom or Quake. It's more like Painkiller in that respect.

[Antroid]

SavageCorona said:

Serious Sam 3 is a poor example to compare to Doom. Even the first Serious Sam wasn't supposed to be comparable to Doom in the same way. Serious Sam was about big open environments and giant hordes, not mazes with enemies dotted around to create challenges.

I remember back when the first ones were coming out, people all over were comparing them to doom, apparently remembering doom to be about mowing down hordes of monsters (maybe they just meant the arcade movement and dodging of projectiles and all that stuff). But I agree. However SS3 is IMO a good example of a modern game pulling off mostly unmolested old-school arcade gameplay very well. Sure it had restrictive sprint, reloading and aiming, but it was seamlessly woven into the gameplay, which maintained it's arcadey status while being slightly deeper than before.

People might think this heresy though, but I personally would not mind if doom 4 did away with the arcadey strafing, projectile dodging based combat, even though it's pretty certain it's not gonna do that. I just think that the essense and atmosphere of Doom could work just as well in a slower-paced, more hiding-based shooter. I realize though that most people would completely blow their lids if that happened.

[ChickenOrBeef]

Antroid said:

People might think this heresy though, but I personally would not mind if doom 4 did away with the arcadey strafing, projectile dodging based combat, even though it's pretty certain it's not gonna do that. I just think that the essense and atmosphere of Doom could work just as well in a slower-paced, more hiding-based shooter. I realize though that most people would completely blow their lids if that happened.

So Doom 3?

[SavageCorona]

I definitely think there will be some modern shooter bum fluff coating some parts of the mechanics, like the aforementioned finite sprinting and (doubtful but still possible) aiming down sights.

If they just gave Doom 1 or 2 a new coat of paint and slapped copyright 2015 on the bottom then newschool gamers would be like "lol how do i 360 noscope xddd" and a lot of their sales would rely on the oldschool gamers, specifically ones who played shooters and some newschool gamers who want to try out an oldschool game but don't want to play one "cause the graphics are shit" or something.

I wouldn't be too mad if they did go down the Wolfenstein route, where it's not really super fast straferunning and there is aim down sights and reloading. New Order had all these new things but still made an amazing oldschool game.

[geo]

Doom 3 is survival horror. Doom 1 & 2 are action games.

I hope there's crafting and a third person dog pet that can fetch ammo. Oh and a boomerang, those are cool. So is riding the back of a cyberdemon to use its rocket launcher. What about if there was some other survivor leaving clues and riddles everywhere. Oh and the spider mastermind has to be a sassy beast that torments the player throughout the entire game to really build character. Voiced by Harrison Ford or Steve Bushemi. "I want doomguy dead!" "Doomguy kill yourself and your daughter will be spared. If not, I'll keep torturing her to see just how many toes these imps can eat off her."

Quicktime event cutting through the Spider Mastermind until its in two pieces, then Doomguy utters "Half a nice day!" Button mashing events when a baron grabs your double barreled shotgun and if you win the contest, you'll shoot him in the face. If he wins, your gun is melted and you'll need to craft a new one.

What about a freeze ray to not just break enemies, but organic doorways that are sealed shut and there's no way to chainsaw through. How about turning enemies into stone so you can push block puzzle?

Turret sections and fast cars. Mars needs a flashy new red lunar rover without a top and a turret in the back. Also have a new form of Mars drug people are addicted to called Phobocoke. Don't forget a sidekick character to be in your ear all the time. Doomguy, press A to jump. Doomguy you have to shoot at the red blinking light with the arrow pointing to it. Doomguy.... you can't die... i ... i love you doom guy. Then when you rescue this voice, its really a robot that says take me with you <3 So you need to carry it at 1 mph, but you can't shoot while carrying it. Lucky for us it will have a shriek to keep away enemies.

Not to mention starting off with a full 30 minute level of having to pump iron, shoot basketball, play pinball, piss in a urinal and sign your autograph for a space kid. Its that sort of immersion that really hooks people in. Then building your own Mars base out of blocks helps people invest time. Without investing time, searching for materials to craft with, no one will think its a good game or just make it a long grind of having to level up. No investment, no good.

Let's not forget micro transactions. Think how sheik Doomguy will be in death matches with that new pink helmet for $5. Or those purple stripe boots for $7.50. Really makes you stand out doesn't it? In a first person shooter where the object is to not be seen, you'll look so fly. Know what else people love? Gambling. What's in these new Marian Buddy Boxes? Keys are only $2.50 for your chance to find out! ooo sweet a plasma rifle that shoots purple plasma instead of blue? Oh man you got a super rare pair of goggles that has fog coming out of them with a circling iD logo? Now I'd pay real money to stand out like that!

[ChickenOrBeef]

SavageCorona said:

I wouldn't be too mad if they did go down the Wolfenstein route, where it's not really super fast straferunning and there is aim down sights and reloading. New Order had all these new things but still made an amazing oldschool game.

I have to disagree with you there. The new Wolfenstein games, while being solid games, perfectly apply to the saying "Jack of all trades, master of none". They have stealth elements, old-school run & gun elements, new-school mechanics, etc, but in the end it doesn't do anything particularly great and it just feels like an amalgamation of the shooter genre. I'm hoping Doom 4 isn't as indecisive as Wolfenstein. The QuakeCon impressions imply it's going to be a much bolder game, so I hope they've continued that approach.

To be honest, it's surprising to see a number of people on here who want a slower, more cover-based game. We already have more than enough of those shooters.

[Touchdown]

I'm jumping back and forth between this thread and the BD one, because there are some similiarities in the discussion.

Generally, I tend to agree with Antroid but not entirely. I feel like the action component of a well balanced, dynamic combat is very important to DOOM and I'm happy to hear they're coming back to it. But at the same time I too believe the atmosphere and the sense of fighting for survival is essential.

So can the gameplay work? Absolutely. The tone of the game might be a problem though. Ok, let's be honest, they can screw up pretty much everything. There're so many variables that it's not even worth discussing it right now.

[SavageCorona]

ChickenOrBeef said:

I have to disagree with you there. The new Wolfenstein games, while being solid games, perfectly apply to the saying "Jack of all trades, master of none". They have stealth elements, old-school run & gun elements, new-school mechanics, etc, but in the end it doesn't do anything particularly great and it just feels like an amalgamation of the shooter genre. I'm hoping Doom 4 isn't as indecisive as Wolfenstein. The QuakeCon impressions imply it's going to be a much bolder game, so I hope they've continued that approach.

To be honest, it's surprising to see a number of people on here who want a slower, more cover-based game. We already have more than enough of those shooters.

I'm not saying I want it to be like Wolfenstein. I'd certainly not like it if they offered a stealth option in Doom (hahahahaha). My point was if they went for Doom 3 style combat and movement (not the level design god no) where it's not the fast frenetic style, I wouldn't be too mad. I'd rather the fast movement like old Doom, but thinking of the worst case scenario here.

[ChickenOrBeef]

SavageCorona said:

My point was if they went for Doom 3 style combat and movement (not the level design god no) where it's not the fast frenetic style, I wouldn't be too mad. I'd rather the fast movement like old Doom, but thinking of the worst case scenario here.

Well, we already know the game is fast and not cover based. But Goatlord also said that the player speed in the QuakeCon demo was jarringly fast for the level of visual detail. So I wonder if they'll slow down the game, especially to accommodate controllers. But they were apparently using a controller to play the demo, so perhaps they've struck a good balance.

[SavageCorona]

I really hope that they don't slow down the game purely for consoles. That would actually piss me off.

[Kaskaum]

Piper Maru said:

Well if Doom 4 fails, than I guess the series is done.

Not only the series, but the entire id software is done. Only Actvision with CoD and Bungie shooters, 343 Industries with Halo and EA with Battlefield will dictate the future of the FPS genre.

[doom_is_great]

Kaskaum said:

Not only the series, but the entire id software is done. Only Actvision with CoD and Bungie shooters, 343 Industries with Halo and EA with Battlefield will dictate the future of the FPS genre.

Ugh...I think I will officially quit video games if that happens. Well, I guess I'll still play Doom.

[ChickenOrBeef]

Kaskaum said:

Not only the series, but the entire id software is done. Only Actvision with CoD and Bungie shooters, 343 Industries with Halo and EA with Battlefield will dictate the future of the FPS genre.

This is why I'm hoping Doom 4 becomes the Mad Max: Fury Road of video games. An exhilarating comeback from a classic series that properly uses old-school elements with modern technology to show the new guys how it's done.

[SavageCorona]

If it flops we could always make a Doom 2 megawad that's basically like "the real Doom 4"

[Antroid]

ChickenOrBeef said:

So Doom 3?

I wouldn't mind it being even farther from the originals than D3 in terms of action-ness. Doom 3 still had more than a fair share of projectile dodging and stuff. Sometimes I feel that it's too funky to keep the atmosphere truly menacing and serious.
Here's how I can imagine it working for me: demons would have a much bigger emphasis on melee attacks, we'd have a bunch of hitscanners, a number of demons with maybe archvile-like LOS-based attacks of some sort, some could have less arcadey attacks than fireballs, such as some sort of flame breath, or lightning discharge, or maybe releasing something that looks and behaves like one of those electric anomalies from Stalker or Metro. Maybe some cyber monsters could shoot missiles but those need to fly realistically fast. If they are to throw any sort of energy balls, those should also fly faster than before and have splash damage (doom 3 sort of did this). Some demons would also need to behave in unexpected ways, such as teleport closer to you when they're out of sight or something mind-fucking like that.
Pretty much what this would mean is that we'd never be truly safe taking demons head on like we're used to, and we'd need to flee, hide, etc.
Again, pretty sure it's not what anyone wants out of Doom 4, but it would not be out of place in my view of Doom. (mostly because for the longest time the only version I had was the SNES one and in that one it's much harder to strafe, everything is faster moving, you get stuck on walls, etc)
Add sprawling, surreal, non-cliche hell levels and atmospheric melodic music (maybe in places like half-life does), and it would be my personal perfect doom game.