Getting to know you, part 3.

[Sharessa]

Phoenix said:

fodders, the way Bush is promoting christianity in the States is scary. You may not have a religious problem in the England, but if this guy keeps up, we will in the US. :(

Hmm...I thought I was the only one who was seeing this. Yeah, the USA is now more christian than ever. Its hard to even question anything relating to God or America, since America = God or something now.

[IMJack]

the_Danarchist said:

Hmm...I thought I was the only one who was seeing this. Yeah, the USA is now more christian than ever. Its hard to even question anything relating to God or America, since America = God or something now.

I don't need to be a global citizen,
because I'm blessed by nationality,
I'm a member of a growing populace,
we enforced our popularity
there are things that seem to pull us under
and there are things that drag us down,
but there's a power and a vital presence
that's lurking all around
we've got the American Jesus
see him on the interstate,
we've got the American Jesus
he helped build the president's estate
I feel sorry for the earth's population
'cause so few live in the U.S.A,
at least the foreigners can copy our morality,
they can visit but they cannot stay,
only precious few can garner our prosperity,
it makes us walk with renewed confidence,
we've got a place to go when we die
and the architect resides right here
we've got the American Jesus
overwhelming millions every day
(exercising his authority)
he's the farmer barren fields,
the force the army wields,
the expression in the faces
of the starving children,
the power of the man.
he's the fuel that drives the clan,
he's the motive and the conscience
of the murderer
he's the preacher on TV,
the false sincerity,
the form letters that written by
the big computers,
he's the nuclear bombs,
and the kids with no moms
and I'm fearful that
he's inside me.

Bad Religion
"American Jesus"

[Lüt]

the_Danarchist said:

You know, I want to do a parody of KMFDM's Anarchy called Danarchy. It would be so fun...

Heh, I wrote an old parody of Heresy called Mockery (lame), damn I wish I still had the lyrics, I could actually record it now. They didn't suck either.

[Mad_AX666]

fodders said:

Who wants to come back as a tin of milk?

ROTFL!

[Spike]

Just cuz the British government doesn't exactly shove Christianity down our throats, doesn't mean there isn't problems caused by religious 'regimes' of old. People are still incredibly prejudiced against Wiccans, Pagans, Satanists or anything else that shys away from the accepted norm.

Can't we all, y'know, get along?

[darknation]

Uh, anyone who worships Satan should probably expect a little backlash from the more traditional religions. The whole point of worshiping the Dark God of Death and Dispair and attempting to plunge the world into the apocayplse is to piss off Christians etc.

All religions are equally retarded.

[Sharessa]

Yeah...the point of satanism is quite a bit silly. Its like they base their religion off of another religion and the primary purpose of their religion is to debunk the one they branch off from. Wouldn't it be better just to divorce the religion entirely?

[IMJack]

darknation said:

Uh, anyone who worships Satan should probably expect a little backlash from the more traditional religions. The whole point of worshiping the Dark God of Death and Dispair and attempting to plunge the world into the apocayplse is to piss off Christians etc.

The dark god of... what? Where did you get that?

This ties into the whole "Christianity as dualism" debate. Personally I refuse to acknowledge the so-called "devil" as any sort of presence, much less a threat against the world or its people. I tend to see self-proclaimed Satan-worshippers as little more than losers looking to shock and annoy the establishment.

[darknation]

Satan... you know... Faust etc.

[White]

Satanists don't believe in a devil or a god. Its called a religion (and on top of that satanism) in spite of Christianity/organized religion. There is no organized religion to devil worshipers. Call it what you want but most of the philosphies in satanism are more sound than probably half of the morals that you people abide by. In any case next time you try to label something the 'bad guy' try to actually get a basic understanding of what it represents, not just look at the name and classify.

20851191471562089522519

[darknation]

I was trying to avoid pissing people off, but what the fuck.

Satanism = A bunch of whiney goths who's sad pathetic lives are so utterly meaningless that they seek to make themselves alternative in a bid to get attention.

Whiney Goth #1: "Let's worship Satan"
Whiney Goth #2: "Yey, lets! Satan the fallen angel and overlord of hell and master of all that is evil!!!"
Me: "You people are fucked up."
Winey Goths: "Leave me alone! All I want to do worship Satan but you people keep on picking on me!!! Waa!!!"
Me: "I bet Satan is proud of you."

Religion = Orginised. Now maybe the Satanists you know are different form the satanists I know. Which is my point I guess, as Satanism is Disorginised, i.e: A cult. Cults (and religion I guess) by definition prey on the weak of mind and emotion.

Anyway, back to what you were saying: Satanists don't belive in Satan? WTF? That's like saying Gates does not belive in Microsoft.

you people

BTW, apparently you are judging me as much as I am judging you, so don't trow a hissy fit about equallity here. I personally don't have any moral system, I do things for my own amusement and for my own advantages. Does that make me evil? Yes, probably more so than any self proclaimed "Satanists".

Anyway, my arguement is you suck for the above reasons.

[Spike]

Oh god, what have i started?

OK - straightening of facts(ish)time.

Satanists, from what i've read in Anton LaVey's 'Satanic Bible', don't believe in the apocalypse, fire and brimstone, eternal damnation, etc etc etc.
What they DO believe in is INDULGENCE, as opposed to ABSTINENCE (no, not absinth. Fools.). The belief follows several straightforward thoeries... that we are simply animals, like any other, albeit with intelligence. The SB teaches people to respect eachother, to indulge as you wish, encourages sexual relations (as long as consent of both people is constant), and the best bit of all, that INNOCENTS ARE NOT HARMED - stories you've probably heard about paedophilic, murdering satanists is largely christian propaganda. One of the SB's most important teaching is that children and animals are not harmed (the animals bit allows consumption, tho, as it's technically the order of things).

Hope i've helped to clear things a bit (i've got a copy of the SB in front of me). Please note that i'm not a Satanist, i'm simply an objective reader of texts from several different religions.

[dsm]

Spike said:

Satanists, from what i've read in Anton LaVey's 'Satanic Bible', don't believe in the apocalypse, fire and brimstone, eternal damnation, etc etc etc.
What they DO believe in is INDULGENCE, as opposed to ABSTINENCE (no, not absinth. Fools.). The belief follows several straightforward thoeries... that we are simply animals, like any other, albeit with intelligence. The SB teaches people to respect eachother, to indulge as you wish, encourages sexual relations (as long as consent of both people is constant), and the best bit of all, that INNOCENTS ARE NOT HARMED - stories you've probably heard about paedophilic, murdering satanists is largely christian propaganda. One of the SB's most important teaching is that children and animals are not harmed (the animals bit allows consumption, tho, as it's technically the order of things).

Hope i've helped to clear things a bit (i've got a copy of the SB in front of me). Please note that i'm not a Satanist, i'm simply an objective reader of texts from several different religions.

They oughta rename that religion of theirs in order to improve their image. Most Christians (even normal "I-don't-give-a-shit-about-my-religion" Christians like myself) see everything with "Satan" in it as pure evil. So when I hear the word "Satanist" I automatically think "A person who worships Satan as a God", which in my eyes is downright sick, because that basically means that they worship everything evil in this world (Sept 11 attacks, wars, murderers, torture, rapists, kidnappers, etc.).

So, if these "Satanists" want to be taken serious, they'd better change the name of the religion to something more pleasant-sounding.

[Spike]

Whew, lets see.
The icon for the Church of Satan is the Baphomet - inside an inverted pentagram - surrounded by the enochian keys. The Baphomet was derived from the 'goats head' image that represented the pagan 'Horned God', who granted fertility, birth and death (circle of life, innit?).

The term 'Satanist' refers more to chaos than evil. And let's face it, Chaos determines most of our lives. Sure, there's a scientific explanation for virtually everything under the sun, but the science bods still can't predict when/how things are going to happen 100%.

Christianity adopted the word 'Satan' from the original satanic religions (despite popular belief, satanism is far older), as believed that everything was controlled by God, and therefore the idea of chaos and spells was blasphemous...

[Spike]

While i'm here, the word 'Hell' as in, the residence of good ol' Devilfella, was derived from the Goddess Hel - the goddess of fertility.

Funny, isn't it? Christianity, when it comes down to it, is patched together from a dozen other religions.

The reason people associate 'Satan' with 'Evil' is due to over a thousand years of the bloody religion presiding over our existences.

We need to take a step back and view EVERYTHING objectively.

[Vampirajay]

darknation said:

Uh, anyone who worships Satan should probably expect a little backlash from the more traditional religions. The whole point of worshiping the Dark God of Death and Dispair and attempting to plunge the world into the apocayplse is to piss off Christians etc.

All religions are equally retarded.

Satan, the dark god of death and dispair? i don't thnk so, unfortunatly today, not even christianity studies the religion it rips off, Satan, is actually spelt Satania! yes, a female, she is the consort of Beezelbub, the lord of flies! and if you wanna start on Lucifer, the morning star, babylonion god of fertility and bringer of light! all these evel deities that so-called satanists follow are not that evil, they were ripped off from other religions by christians! what i don't understand is why everyone thinks its so evil, but on because of two of their dieties, what about Leviathon and belial? if anybody bothered to follow up satanism they would know that the above two where the cruelest of the lot, but no, we gotta bring up the two that not many REAL satanists bother to worship that much! Ah, ignorance must be bliss!

[Vampirajay]

Oops, forget to mention, Satania (or satan) means bringer of life and warmth

[Mad_AX666]

darknation said:

I was trying to avoid pissing people off, but what the fuck.

Satanism = A bunch of whiney goths who's sad pathetic lives are so utterly meaningless that they seek to make themselves alternative in a bid to get attention.

Whiney Goth #1: "Let's worship Satan"
Whiney Goth #2: "Yey, lets! Satan the fallen angel and overlord of hell and master of all that is evil!!!"
Me: "You people are fucked up."
Winey Goths: "Leave me alone! All I want to do worship Satan but you people keep on picking on me!!! Waa!!!"
Me: "I bet Satan is proud of you."

Religion = Orginised. Now maybe the Satanists you know are different form the satanists I know. Which is my point I guess, as Satanism is Disorginised, i.e: A cult. Cults (and religion I guess) by definition prey on the weak of mind and emotion.

Anyway, back to what you were saying: Satanists don't belive in Satan? WTF? That's like saying Gates does not belive in Microsoft.

BTW, apparently you are judging me as much as I am judging you, so don't trow a hissy fit about equallity here. I personally don't have any moral system, I do things for my own amusement and for my own advantages. Does that make me evil? Yes, probably more so than any self proclaimed "Satanists".

Anyway, my arguement is you suck for the above reasons.

LOL, you retarded christians just can't get your facts right!

Spike said:

Satanists, from what i've read in Anton LaVey's 'Satanic Bible', don't believe in the apocalypse, fire and brimstone, eternal damnation, etc etc etc.
What they DO believe in is INDULGENCE, as opposed to ABSTINENCE (no, not absinth. Fools.). The belief follows several straightforward thoeries... that we are simply animals, like any other, albeit with intelligence. The SB teaches people to respect eachother, to indulge as you wish, encourages sexual relations (as long as consent of both people is constant), and the best bit of all, that INNOCENTS ARE NOT HARMED - stories you've probably heard about paedophilic, murdering satanists is largely christian propaganda. One of the SB's most important teaching is that children and animals are not harmed (the animals bit allows consumption, tho, as it's technically the order of things).

Hope i've helped to clear things a bit (i've got a copy of the SB in front of me). Please note that i'm not a Satanist, i'm simply an objective reader of texts from several different religions.

See? Some people (like Spike) actally use their brains before opening their yaps.

Religion really pisses me off!
Ok rant over. I've probably killed this thread.

[darknation]

Christiantiy is an evolution of past religons. You can go back 10'000 years and you will find everything had different meaning because it was a totally different world back then. Words and characters of myth splinter and merge together, as does meaning. If I wanted to I could prove Heinz Tomato Soup was originally derived from Heinzian, Ancient Atlantian God of Mysterious Repeating Liquid Biro Pens.

Welcome to the year 2002. Where you currently live. And drawing on meaning from the year 2002, Satan is associated with raping people in hell with giant wooden dildos. Satan, Lucifer, Belziwassit, Bhudda, Christ, God and Bart Simpson have all merged together and splintered into totally different meaning.

Even dropping the issue of God and the Devil, I'd like to argue the philosophy (no diss to spike, he seems like a reasonable dude).

Satanists, from what i've read in Anton LaVey's 'Satanic Bible', don't believe in the apocalypse, fire and brimstone, eternal damnation, etc etc etc.

Right, so they take their name from a character that tey don't belive in? Fair.

What they DO believe in is INDULGENCE, as opposed to ABSTINENCE (no, not absinth. Fools.). The belief follows several straightforward thoeries... that we are simply animals, like any other, albeit with intelligence.

We are animals, quite correct. But the later half of this arguement is bullshit. Half the people on the street have not had an original thought in their entire lives and rather follow the rest of the herd in group mentality. I'd like to pint out that Abstinence can be a good thing. Indulgence almost always leads to decadence.

The SB teaches people to respect each other, to indulge as you wish, encourages sexual relations (as long as consent of both people is constant), and the best bit of all, that INNOCENTS ARE NOT HARMED -

Who decides who is innocent and guilty? Your consience? Concience is varible form person to person. Some people still belive in the Seven Deadly Sins for christsake.

stories you've probably heard about paedophilic, murdering satanists is largely christian propaganda. One of the SB's most important teaching is that children and animals are not harmed (the animals bit allows consumption, tho, as it's technically the order of things).

They are just "indulging" themselves though. Look how much Christian morals have degenerated over the years. Can you imagine the state of affairs if the same levels of corruption were to happen in a Satanist culture?

[darknation]

Mad_AX666 said:

LOL, you retarded christians just can't get your facts right!

And at which point did you assume I was was religious in anyway whatsoever?

Idiot.

[Spike]

darknation said:

Christiantiy is an evolution of past religons. You can go back 10'000 years and you will find everything had different meaning because it was a totally different world back then. Words and characters of myth splinter and merge together, as does meaning. If I wanted to I could prove Heinz Tomato Soup was originally derived from Heinzian, Ancient Atlantian God of Mysterious Repeating Liquid Biro Pens.

[/B]

Yes, and 10,000 years ago CHRISTIANITY DID NOT EXIST. And before you say anything, that is the exact point of the arguement.

Welcome to the year 2002. Where you currently live. And drawing on meaning from the year 2002, Satan is associated with raping people in hell with giant wooden dildos. Satan, Lucifer, Belziwassit, Bhudda, Christ, God and Bart Simpson have all merged together and splintered into totally different meaning.

To the majority, yes, they revere their TV programs more than religion. However, that still leaves PLENTY of religious people following a patchwork of a story.

[B[Even dropping the issue of God and the Devil, I'd like to argue the philosophy (no diss to spike, he seems like a reasonable dude).

[/B]

I like to listen to all ends of an arguement, yes. Cheers Dude :)

Right, so they take their name from a character that tey don't belive in? Fair. We are animals, quite correct. But the later half of this arguement is bullshit. Half the people on the street have not had an original thought in their entire lives and rather follow the rest of the herd in group mentality. I'd like to pint out that Abstinence can be a good thing. Indulgence almost always leads to decadence. Who decides who is innocent and guilty? Your consience? Concience is varible form person to person. Some people still belive in the Seven Deadly Sins for christsake. They are just "indulging" themselves though. Look how much Christian morals have degenerated over the years. Can you imagine the state of affairs if the same levels of corruption were to happen in a Satanist culture?

Let's see... Satanists believe in all gods from all religions - good and bad, they're all listed within the Bible. 'Satanism' has been used because it's the most recognised term. As for the people not having original thoughts... true, it takes creative people to make a difference, but like it or not, even the sheep do have a mind of their own buried under the effects of 20 years worth of advertising.

As for the moral code - at it's most basic level, when an innocent is violated (i'm sure i haven't got to spell it out for you), it is considered evil. While a former self-proclaimed 'Satanist' named Alistair Crowley sanctioned such acts, he was quickly dis-associated as he was, thoroughly, evil. The current state of affairs within the church prefers to distance itself from such a man, just as the Roman Catholic Church distances itself from convicted paedophile priests within the same system.

The right and wrong takes form partly in modern culture, but mostly by instinct. A mammal mother will protect her offspring at any cost - this same principle is applied in Satanism.

Man, my fingers are hurting.

[Vampirajay]

ok, diffences between christian and satanic rules!
Christians - no sex before marrage (ok, fair enough on that one if that's what you choose)
- no use of contreseption (ok, lets just over populate the country even more)
- do unto others as you would like them to do unto you (so, if someone beats the shit out of me, rapes me, murders me, its ok cuz, "jesus loves me?)
- and the big one!!!! no abusing children (then how come their are so many pedo's in the church! so basicly, what ever you do, your gonna burn in hell! you can't help but break a rule if you live in this world!

Satanism - do what you want as long as it hurts no one else! no harming of children or animals or anyone who doesn't want to be (ok, now, so fake satanics will use satanism as an excuse, it is strictly forbidden)
- do not argue religiously, unless someone starts it first! you know what, i agree with whoever said it before, just abolish religion! oh yeah, if satanism became the main religion, it would be abused just as much as christianty! it would be used as an excuse to keep people under control and the real reason for it would be forgotton!

[Spike]

'Amen' to that, you sexy bitch :)

[Sharessa]

Vampirajay said:

Satanism - do what you want as long as it hurts no one else! no harming of children or animals or anyone who doesn't want to be (ok, now, so fake satanics will use satanism as an excuse, it is strictly forbidden)
- do not argue religiously, unless someone starts it first! you know what, i agree with whoever said it before, just abolish religion! oh yeah, if satanism became the main religion, it would be abused just as much as christianty! it would be used as an excuse to keep people under control and the real reason for it would be forgotton!

Wow...so I'm like practicaly a Satanist then.

Actualy, Im don't buy it. Every time I read some literature on Satanism, its completely different from the last. I have no idae if there are different factions or what, but I find it very confusing.

[Little Faith]

LaVey Satanism is no true religion. It is a very consistent set of ethics and philosophies. The Satan name and imagery is mainly a way of signalling the opposition to christian morality.

What makes LaVey satanism a false religion is the absence of pain and sacrifice.

Yeah, religion is all about suffering and loss. In the early pagan religions where there wasn't such a big focus on denial of the mortal world around us the sacrifice was something of a very physical nature. You sacrificed things that was considered valuable. Sometimes by destroying something. Food that could have been eaten burnt in the ashes. Gold that could have been traded or shown off buried in the ground. Young lives that could have flowered drastically cut short by the sacred dagger.

The sacrifice could also be the huge amounts of resources used to build temples. Temples that were often too holy to really use for anything. (Remember that the public prayer or communion is a rather new phenomenon).

In newer religions there is a bigger focus on abstinence. This is a result of a culture where there is more focus on morality and ethics. In older cultures material wealth and living standards was the primary value and therefore sacrifices and "holy work" in the form of rigous rituals was the way to a sacred life.

In newer times values are placed on effectiveness instead. A man with the capacity to generate wealth is a better man than the one that just possesses wealth. Religion has changed accordingly so the sacrifice appears in the form of actions or the refrain from them. The ultmate sacrifice is the holy life where a monk withdraws from the ordinary life and pleasure of this world to a life of desolation and holiness. What makes our lives holy is the denial of our full range of actions in exchange of an amputated weak and powerless life.


If you plan on starting a religion you should be more wary of reducing the toil and punishments than reducing the rewards.

[Mad_AX666]

darknation said:

And at which point did you assume I was was religious in anyway whatsoever?

Idiot.

WOAH! Did not mean to offend you. I was very tired and not thinking stright (sp).

[Spike]

the_Danarchist said:

Wow...so I'm like practicaly a Satanist then.

[/B]

Exactly. It works on modern principles rather than the more traditional ones of old. Most of the decent people in this world are Satanists in all-but name.

Actualy, Im don't buy it. Every time I read some literature on Satanism, its completely different from the last. I have no idae if there are different factions or what, but I find it very confusing.

True, there are factionalised offshoots - just like any religion/cult/whatever that exists. Some are better than others - indeed they pervert the satanic teachings to their own ends. However, the Satanic Bible, as it stands, hasn't really changed in about 20 years.

I'm sure that Catholicism, just like Satanism, had every good intention when the religion was founded. Unfortunatly, like Catholicism, it takes one charismatic person to lead others on, create an offshoot religion and fiddle with the rules and principles until it's unrecognisable.

As Vampirajay said, it'd be much simpler if we abolished religion entirely (See 'Thinky thinky thinky' thread).

[TheHighestTree]

Backtracking a bit, i don't honestly know what i believe, tho I do believe in fate for some reason...


If anyone wants to see some truly funny fanatic shenanigans, search Google for a crazy church in the small community of Plaster Rock, New Brunswick, Canada. The pastor there is a complete psycho who believes himself to be a direct pipeline for God's words! The congregation is ensnared enough to discommunicate anyone who opposes the church (Basically, if you quit, you'll lose any social standing in this town.) He sounds just like that crazy guy in Max Payne.

I'll even get you started:

http://www.rickross.com/reference/apostolic_pentecostal/apostolic_pentecostal1.html

http://www.rickross.com/reference/apostolic_pentecostal/apostolic_pentecostal3.html

Well lookee here, there's even a shiny realplayer documentary Watch it for a few good laughs and creepyness:

http://www.cbc.ca/disclosure/media/020226_bigdaddy.ram




-and remember: "Stay in chuch-ah!"

[Vampirajay]

Little Faith said:

.

What makes LaVey satanism a false religion is the absence of pain and sacrifice.

so your saying that if Satanism was really about what everyone thought it was about, ie, murder, rape, abuse that type of thing then it would be a "real" religion? religion is only real to the people who believe in it, we can keep arguing on this thread and in real life but it won't change a thing, Satanists believe their religion is good, Christians believe thiers is good and everyone else disagrees! what is the point?

[Sharessa]

Spike said:

Exactly. It works on modern principles rather than the more traditional ones of old. Most of the decent people in this world are Satanists in all-but name.

Hmm...I would never call myself a Satanist for a couple reasons:

1)I don't pick sides. The only organisation I belong to is me.

2)Someone said it had to do with indulgence or something. Thats really not my style. I mean, I do believe in having a good time but, there are other things more important to me. Perhaps one day I shall post my views on human how I view myself in relation to society, etc.