The DWmegawad Club plays: NOVA II

[Tristan]

Hell, the blue key isn't even trapped.

Should it be? Do people seriously have the expectation that every key in every map has to have an ambush with it?

MAP02: Rocky Rooftops - Pinchy
| Kills: 45/45 | Items: 15/17 | Secrets: 1/2 | Time: 03:06 | Deaths: 0 |

So after a MAP01 that seemed to difficult to be a MAP01, we now get a MAP02 that seems to easy to be a MAP02, and therefore we can conclude that MAP02 is better at being a MAP01 than MAP01 is at being MAP01, and MAP01 is better at being a MAP02 than MAP02 is at being MAP02 (I take no responsibility for any confusion you may feel after reading that sentence).

Unfortunately, this also feels like a step down in quality to me. The open map layout filled up with various structures, plus a mild case of "wtf did that do" switches left me getting briefly lost a couple of times, which really shouldn't happen in a map this short.
Enemy placement is mostly just small clusters - encountered one at a time - of a few monsters, with little variety in monster type within these clusters (Did I do the thing placement for this map and then forget about it?), so on the whole the map was pretty uninteresting.

A lackluster map in my honest opinion, but it was at least over quickly. Music selection was good too.

[kmc]

Eris Falling said:

Should it be? Do people seriously have the expectation that every key in every map has to have an ambush with it?

This was meant as more of a facetious comment when considering Matt's propensity toward nasty traps and difficult gameplay in his maps. Generally I wouldn't have such an expectation, but given that reputation and the tameness of the map until that point I was surprised. I don't think it was the low difficulty I disliked about this map so much as the lack of variety in the first 3/4 or so of the map as you walk the perimeter of the base. Who knows? It seems everyone else liked the map, so I've probably just been playing too much Sunlust.

[kmc]

Map 02:

Now this one I really liked. It has a very old school style, which made me
recall 90s wads like Mars War and Squadron 417, but with better texturing
and architecture. Only complaints would be that the monster placement is a bit too conservative (on UV), and the map ends too soon so I don't get to explore as much as it seems at first :( Would love to play more maps like this though.

And as others have said, I agree that this map fits better in the map01 slot.

[dobu gabu maru]

NoobBait said:

And as others have said, I agree that this map fits better in the map01 slot.

Seeing as this seems to be the resounding opinion, I'll probably swap them for the final release.

MAP02: Out of the 2 (non-Megiddo) maps Pinchy has in here, this one is definitely likely to be less divisive. It's a brief and sweet affair, trading out the hitscanner hallways of MAP01 for some wide open areas... with hiscanners. As others have said, it's a fairly docile map unless you play it very recklessly, but there's enough enemies everywhere that it never feels boring or uneventful. I personally think there should probably be one more demon in the exit room trap, as two pinkies are easy to skirt around.

[AD_79]

I don't agree with the idea that the slots need to be switched. MAP01 doesn't always need to be the easiest map in the set and I think Rocky Rooftops serves as a nice breather after Panic Station.

[Magnusblitz]

MAP02: Rocky Rooftops
100% kills, 2/2 secrets

An interesting map in that it feels like it's definitely a bit different in design from the usual stuff out there, whether it be the IWAD-style enclosed hallways, or the more modern setpieces free-flowing arenas, etc. This is much more vertical in design, with a cool descent at the start and a layout featuring tall buildings lacking roofs. It is a pretty docile map, though, as after clearing out the initial bevvy of riff-raff in the central area the map gets pretty empty (and ends surprisingly quick). I'd still keep Panic Station as the MAP01 slot since it feels like a better opener to me, even if the end ambush is a bit strong... I'm also not a fan of the "MAP01 needs to be easy" idea since it sometimes means the WAD starts off a bit ho-hum.

Changes to make... I'd raise the height of the desks for these monitors to 25, as it feels awkward to be able to just run up them instantly (and impassible lines would feel awkward when platforming from above). Also, it's possible to get stuck in a pit here.

[scifista42]

I think that cannonball's MAP01 is a superb opener, and Pinchy's MAP02 is a decent follow-up but not so superb-opener-alike, so that their current order is better than a potential swap would be.

[obake]

AD_79 said:

I don't agree with the idea that the slots need to be switched. MAP01 doesn't always need to be the easiest map in the set and I think Rocky Rooftops serves as a nice breather after Panic Station.

I agree in this case. I don't think the maps need to be switched, though a few more sergeants could added to Map 02 on UV. Whatever Dobu and Tourniquet feel is best.

Map 02 Rocky Rooftops by Pinchy
Played on HNTR, HMP, and UV, got 100% of everything on each. Time on UV was 21:11(!) only because it took me awhile to find the switch for the soulsphere secret.

A fun little city map. As everyone has said, it is considerably easier than Map 01, which is not necessarily a bad thing. It's nice having a breather every once in awhile, and it's early enough in the wad that it does not feel out of place. Each difficulty seems implemented well enough, though UV could use a few slight changes, as I stated. Nothing major.

[Dylan Jarvis]

I Actually agree with Scifista and AD even though I said map02 should have been map01. Yeah map02 is clearly easier but they made good points about it being a good breather map so in hindsight keep the order the same. It's kind of like Plutonia Experiment where Congo is harder than Well of Souls (even though some people might disagree).

[tourniquet]

I guess we all know how to play this game, so who cares about difficulty progression.
It's great to have a slightly more challenging opener, i see no point in swapping those 2 maps.

[Urthar]

ZDoom - HMP - Pistol Starts

MAP02 Rocky Rooftops



If this was a Half-Life map I wouldn't have any objection to contempory objects like this helipad, but I really don't think they work in Doom's low fidelity engine. I'd recommend googling images of landing pads from Star Wars, Blade Runner, etc and ripping them off instead.



This is very good. We have a strong establishing shot of the area ahead, with an objective visible in the distance, and a vaguely cinematic monster introduction with the lowering platform. The only problem here is an invisible wall, which needs to be fixed with either a mid-texture railing, or some form of structural barrier.



I don't like Doom furniture for the same reasons as the helipad, but this piece does have the saving grace of being functional. I quite like the whole construction site theme this map has.



Not a well placed switch, as it looks as if it should activate the lift. You can just about hear what it actually does, but you can't see the bars it lowers when you press it. Not every cause has to be in line of sight of it's effect, but there has to be some clear indication of what a switch does if it's part of a map's main progression.



This door needs a bit more visual garnish. The fact that it's visble from the previous vantage point is good, but it needs to draw the eye more.

---

In terms of gameplay. I think it's quite good that this map is slower and more exploratory than the action of the first map. It's a standard pacing device and I think it works pretty well. Infact I think the map ends a little too early, and there should be more stuff to explore once you get through the door.

I might be tempted to beef up the final encouter a little bit, and maybe hide a chainsaw in the map just for fun, but otherwise I think the map basically works.

[mouldy]

Good to see Nova 2 getting played. I only recently hacked through it myself, so I might take a break and join in later in the month maybe.

Its true that there aren't as many new mappers in this one, well I can't speak for the others but I still think of myself as a newb at this. As long as you have that mentality that your stuff could be better then thats the beginnings of being a decent mapper I think.

[cannonball]

Map01
It's nice to see plenty of comments on this one, I have managed to implement a few tweaks here and there, mostly visual (eg raising the light level at the start for example). I guess many were surprised on this one being pretty easy for once considering the death I put in many of my maps, but I pitched this remake for the episode 1 section anyway due to the relative length. I was surprised to see it sit in the map01 slot though ( I thought around 2/3 myself but hey-ho).

Map02
I liked this one from its inception, though I feel that the extra bit at the end doesn't really add much to the map in my opinion, also those rooftop demons really need to be replaced with something with less HP and a more credible threat.

I will try to keep up with things this month, though I am currently doing long distance commuting for work so my time is limited and also I go on holiday in the final week of July. That also explains my lack of activity during testing on the wad's thread, sorry.

[gaspe]

MAP03 - Deep Water

Kills: 100% | Items: 98% | Secrets: 100 %

Overall the style didn't catch me; but it's a well made map, and the outdoor area is nice. It's just a matter of personal taste. The trap at the exit was good, and the Red Key encounter it's pretty tricky, good job on that!
I think that there are some redundancies with the secrets:

Spoiler

-at the beginning you can get a green armor, and there is a second one in the same room of a secret blue armor, and also having 2 green amors isn't a good idea imo since the map isn't very long
-the first 2 secrets are a berserk and a soulsphere that are near

I think that give, or move, some Rocket Launcher ammo in the secrets will make them more valuable. Or make them more different in their rewards.

[obake]

mouldy said:

Its true that there aren't as many new mappers in this one, well I can't speak for the others but I still think of myself as a newb at this. As long as you have that mentality that your stuff could be better then thats the beginnings of being a decent mapper I think.

This is something I've been wondering. I consider myself a newb, hence why I joined. But do you guys still see me as a newb?

[Jaws In Space]

This was a pretty average tech base map from HevinHEZ, I've never played any of his maps before & I did a search for his name on ID Games & didn't find anything so as far as I know this is one of his very first maps, if so then I say it's a fairly decent effort. It does suffer from having some ugly micro detailing in some spots throughout the map, but it's not nearly as bad as most other new mappers. The Monster placement could use some work in this map, I think this was the easiest map yet except for the fight for the Red key. There were a few to many fights where a Hell Knight was the primary threat which really isn't that fun, just tedious, but at least they weren't Barons.

[TheOrganGrinder]

MAP02: Rocky Rooftops

A more sedate affair than MAP01, this is an odd mixture of technical-seeming detail elements and an abstract setting in which the environment is designed to provide the primary challenge. The monsters feel like footnotes, intended mostly just to keep a moderate degree of pressure on the player as you explore and puzzle out the 3D space. In a mixed WAD like this it provides an interesting intermission, and I enjoyed the slightly-unreal style and setting. It's over too quickly for me to have much more to say about it.

MAP03: Deep Water

Solid techbase level which seems to favour the use of Hell Knights as 'mobile roadblocks' - they're generally not encountered in areas where they can present too much of a threat, but they're sturdy enough, especially with the limited rocket ammo and late placement of the super shotgun on this map, that they can slowly herd the player around and multiply the danger posed by other monsters.

There's a phrase that someone used here recently - "nibbly octagons," I think? It describes the frequent rounded-off corners of this map well. There's enough variety in scale, texture, etc. from room to room that I didn't find the aethetics boring, though it comes across as a slightly awkward hybrid of deliberately classic/old-school design and a mapper's own developing style. Strip out some of the detail (and the bonus arch-vile) and you could slot a "lo-fi" version of this map into the first ten levels or so of Doom II without anything seeming out of place.

About the only part that irritated me outright was the placement of the green armour in a single-use platform right near the start - you can't see it before pressing the switch and so it feels like it's been thrown in just to mess with players who like to manage their resources and supplies intelligently.

[NuMetalManiak]

MAP03 Deep Water

A very enjoyable romp. Glad the secret with the teleport destination got fixed (although it really does not have a lot of use). the appearance of the SSG helps quite a lot.

[scifista42]

MAP03 - "Deep Water" by KevinHEZ

Some doors had random DOORSTOPs slapped over their middle parts (notably the southern door leading to the yellow key room). I was convinced that it was meant as an indication that the door cannot be opened until I press a remote switch somewhere. Then I've found out that it wasn't the case. I think they might be misleading and maybe they should be removed altogether, as their purpose is nothing but decorative.

The green armor lift closet was activated by a 1-time switch and then it couldn't be accessed ever again, I didn't like this either.

The whole layout was needlessly symmetrical, hallway heavy, and many rooms were based on a square shape. There was relatively little vertical combat and relatively improportionate density of detail, not really badly, though. Oh, and every major pickup was followed by an ambush, some of which were skippable with ease, which seemed advantageous when the ambushers were tough types and there was more than enough room to fight / avoid them, which was also relatively frequent situation. This map fits my expectation about NOVA maps - as amateurish ones, but with good overall quality control.

Nevertheless, it was a decent map. More on the "average" part of the spectrum than "great", but I still feel mostly positively about it. Except the problems I noted at the beginning of my post.

[dobu gabu maru]

obake said:

This is something I've been wondering. I consider myself a newb, hence why I joined. But do you guys still see me as a newb?

Like I said I think this is a bit of a nebulous concept, but I'd say you stop being a newb when you have a mapset on idgames that people can point to and go "this is clearly an obake set!" You'll never stop feeling like you've learned things with Doom, but publishing your own maps is usually the first sign that you know what you're doing.

MAP03: One of the many maps in this set that I had a hand in tweaking. My adjustments are less pronounced here than in later maps (MAP05 and MAP19 possess a very distinct dobu flavor IMO), but some things can definitely be blamed on me—namely that S1 switch for the armor. I’m adamant about not changing because I like the idea of a missable green armor (sorry an_mutt & co.), though now I'm torn on it because I want people contributing that "fault" to me and not Kevin... perhaps I'll make a little note of it in the text file. Anyway, Kevin is a really strong mapper visually. One of the reasons I opted to work on this was because the architecture was so distinctive and alluring that I didn’t want it to wind up in the reject pile; for those that don’t know, Kevin dropped off a handful of maps for NOVA II that needed gameplay adjustments that he was unable to do due to computer issues (they were more or less "complete" design-wise). His maps are detailed without being overly cluttered and have a lot of nice trimming around them—I just wish we could’ve seen what a hell-style map would be like from him.

Unfortunate that a lot of people felt the combat was sluggish, as I tried to make it more exciting in certain spots... guess I have a couple more things to work on. Probably the peak of the map is the AV battle—his placement was actually cannonball’s idea, though I made it so the door was locked and there was a PE being troublesome on the opposite side (originally I think it was just cacos and HKs you could flee from). A decent map, though arguably the weakest out of the three that Kevin has in the set; comments about the lack of vertical combat will persist on his other maps (these were all made around the same time so I don't think he knew the versatility of perched units), but there's at least some surprises in store.

[Budoka]

Hey, why the hell not. Do note that I won't be referencing NOVA: The Birth throughout this as I have not played it.

GlBoom+, -complevel 2, UV Pistol start, no cheats, no saves. Although I will make a safety save at the start of every new map in case pistol starting it proves really, really troublesome. And as usual, these rules are liable to modification whenever things get really, really rough.

MAP01: Panic Station by Cannonball1990

This starts off quite strong, with a clever misdirection. The access road is basic as all hell, making you expect an easy MAP01 with standard early gameplay. However, as soon as you get inside, you're greeted with Demons and Specters all over the place, numerous Shotgun and Chaingun snipers, and ammo is quite scarce, all of those being elements which contribute to outing this intro level as fairly tricky. I love the non-linear structure of the hallways surrounding the entrance hall.

The arena behind the blue door signals that Cannonball isn't afraid to bring us combat set-pieces from the get-go. Quite exciting, though I needed a save before it since it proved quite tricky and I had already seen the earlier parts a handful of times. I only pressed the switch that frees you again after everything was dead, but it wouldn't have been that much help anyway.

Aesthetics wise, this is standard techbase material, but if nothing else it's quite well-structured. I dig the Memento Mori music.

Overall, a very good short map. I didn't find any secrets.


MAP02: Rocky Rooftops by PinchySkree

A sprawling city map already ? Neat. It looks cool too, the small waterfall in particular is quite distinctive.

Anyway, this one is, strangely, much easier and shorter than Cannonball's outing. It starts off in a most interesting way, with a large view of the town from which you can snipe a bunch of zombiemen. I chose not to start like that, instead heading straight for the hidden tunnel and beginning by exploring the ground level. That puzzle sequence to unlock the door was fun.

The map ends surprisingly early, with a much tamer arena fight that the one which concluded the first map. I still haven't found any secrets. Anyway, nice map.


MAP03: Deep Water by Kevinhez

Whatever that music is, it's pretty good.

Good old tripwire traps in here, that's old-school. Some minor symmetry problems as well, although not too bad. The yellow key fight offers prime opportunities for infighting, but I fell into the sewer while trying to gain leverage which complicated things a bit, starting with the Specter waiting in ambush there. Speaking of which, I found my first secret. Cool supercharge!

The yellow door section showcases a lot of monster variety, but their placement is just too forgiving. Same goes for the blue door section. You're going to hand me a Super Shotgun to face two Mancubi, two Chaingunners and three imps in a large open space with abundant cover ? Who needs that in this day and age ? Though to Kevinhez's credit, the red key brawl is actually perfectly balanced and might just be the toughest encounter yet. I also dig the exit trap which almost had me biting it. Those two great moments rescue what is otherwise a very ordinary and forgettable map.

On an unrelated note, I wish the green door required a green key, Keen style.

Favorite map so far: Pinchy, just for the originality. I wish it had a little more bite though, as it's the only one of the three to present practically zero challenge.

[obake]

dobu gabu maru said:

Like I said I think this is a bit of a nebulous concept, but I'd say you stop being a newb when you have a mapset on idgames that people can point to and go "this is clearly an obake set!" You'll never stop feeling like you've learned things with Doom, but publishing your own maps is usually the first sign that you know what you're doing.

Thanks for clarifying.

Map03 : Deep Water by KevinHez
Played on HNTR, HMP, and UV. Completed each with 100% kills and secrets with an average time of 13 minutes. Died once.

An interesting little map with some nice set pieces. The biggest and most tense battle is of course the room with Mr. Archie. Asides from that, battles are mostly very straightforward. Perhaps monsters could teleport into the downstairs room after the yellow key door, or in the outside room leading to the red key door, just to spice things up. The Super Shotgun's placement is a little odd, but not bad. Perhaps a secret SSG could be present earlier on, just to help eat up shell ammo a little bit more. I almost always seemed to have an abundance of shells, it seemed.

Overall, not bad, but not the best, either.

Edit: I should add that some of the Demon placements seem a little off. There are three pinkys residing behind (or at least close to) closed doors: one in the room to the 1-time green armor, one in the room opposite of that, and one directly behind the yellow door. This in itself is not an issue, but I will mention that none of them pose much of a viable threat.

The one in the green armor room works because it hinders the players progress towards the armor. The second is okay, but again, more of an ammo sponge than a threat. The demon behind the YK door is something I feel could be switched with something more potent, perhaps a sergeant or chaingunner.

[Magnusblitz]

MAP03: Deep Water
100% kills, 3/4 secrets

Solid techbase/starport map here. The layout is very old-school in that its approach is mainly "open door, clear room, open next door..." but it does a decent job of sprucing this up with lots of staircases, ceiling decorations and the like. It is quite linear though. A good example is the leg leading to the blue key - the player never sees the key until he drops down on top of it, he just keeps going down the path because there's nowhere else to go. There are a few spots where the detailing is probably a mite overdone, but overall it didn't bother me too much and looked nice.

I actually took a surprising amount of damage after the yellow door, might just be sloppy play or expecting an easy map, but I liked the fights from there on out. Blue door fight was good since I was low on HP, and the red key fight as nicely done as well with the AV. And I like that last trap. Also don't like the S1 switch for the green armor; dobu, keep your dickishness in your own maps. ;)

[cannonball]

MAP03 - "Deep Water" by KevinHEZ
Right, there are currently two rocket launchers in this map, the first one after the yellow key door should be replaced with the SSG and potentially place a rocket launcher in a secret prior to the blue key. The SSG will make the map quicker to push through given that the rocket supply is limited, the blue key door onwards is fine in my opinion. A nice, clean map with some decent gameplay in there overall.

[kmc]

Map 03:

Well, I was a little worried when I started out inside of a tiny box, but thankfully what greeted me through the door was a nice d2-styled base map with a compact layout and strong visuals. The fights are alright, but not much pressure is put on the player, as many of them take place in flat, open areas with low monster density. I found the red key trap to be rather awkward. Slow doors open out of sight, then you fire and wake up 4 lost souls and 4 other monsters, which are distributed in such a way that it takes forever for any of them to actually become a threat. I was curious, so I created a save right after taking red key and tried all three ways a player would typically be expected to approach the fight (going left to vile/hk, right to caco/pe, or to the center of the room), and the fight went basically the same way each time, because the vile never goes near the arachnotron corpses, and the map layout means you're only in sight of half the monsters at a given time. Worst case you have one extra hell knight to kill. Anyways, now that I went on my tangent, let me just restate that I actually really liked this map. 2 rocket launchers is weird though.

Also I don't know if this is intended, but the slime sector in front of the supersphere (and the secret sector itself) is non-damaging.

[Tristan]

MAP03 - Deep Water - KevinHEZ
| Kills: 101/101 | Items: 49/67 | Secrets: 0/4 | Time: 07:51 | Deaths: 0 |

Neat-looking techbase map. NOVA is still yet to throw anything nasty at us, as this was another pretty straightforward map as far as difficulty is concerned. I did have a 3 health moment though :o
Don't have much to say about this, but I would say it's the best in the set so far.

[Urthar]

ZDoom - HMP - Pistol Starts

MAP03 Deep Water



So here we have BRONZE TEKGREN STARG GRAY and METAL all used as wall textures in one room. Basically, this is too much. Even though the geometry and layout of this level is pretty good, and all the textures are properly aligned, this sort of unfocused texture style undermines it. It's fine to have each distinct room, corridor or area have it's own defined texture/colour scheme, but mixing it up this much in a single room isn't recommended.

The lighting, while incorporating some nice effects, overall felt gloomy and flat, which is probably a gamma issue and not unexpected in a mapset with multiple authors.

Gameplay started off slow, but picked up nicely once the SSG and RL became available. Overall a pretty decent and enjoyable map, but nothing particularly stood out about it.

[scifista42]

MAP04 - "Andromeda Sun" by Getsu Fune

Getsu Fune is one of the mappers who tend to make oversized areas, specially when they're outdoors, and it shows. With this vast disorganized layout and low density of enemies, gameplay feels slow and casual for most of the time. Slow paced ploughing through the map while sniping down enemies appears to be the optimal non-speedrunning strategy. Player never needs to worry about taking cover, there are no situations that would require stepping back in order to survive. Overall challenge amount is low, but whatever, the map is playable and keeps the player busy well enough. Occasional teleport traps in enclosed spaces weren't difficult either, as the teleporting monsters were always weaklings. The red key room gimmick was good, I like when gameplay is spiced up with puzzles once a while, even such simple ones, and the combination with teleport ambush was well done here - it was still all too easy, though. All in all, not bad, I'm actually satisfied with the midi track and the map as a whole. It matched my momentary sleepy mood. :)

[NuMetalManiak]

inb4 everyone else (except scifista apparently).

MAP04 Andromeda Sun

lazy copy n paste from the NOVA II thread.

First of all, I seriously was hoping this would be MAP01. since I'm such a story-driven person when I game I like to touch on stories (remember that I provided a few texts for the previous NOVA?), and I wanted this map to essentially be Doomguy's cleaning of the remaining surviving demons and what not, through the caverns and expanses. second, yes, the combat is supposed to be light enough that any and I mean any player can rush through it in about 5 minutes without much nary a trouble. the puzzles I put in were intended to be like simple puzzles in an RPG game, pressing the right switches.

the chaingun is my preferred weapon to have equipped and it's great for this map. I chose to hide it in an easy secret because of that. to spice up combat so it wouldn't be TOO boring I added a few teleport ambushes which shouldn't rustle panties that much. after playing through this map, I can see some people complaining about how it's longevity can be boring, and it always could be better, but it really isn't that long I tell you. I just like adventurous things more than action-packed things. :)

other things I should add, well there's the Pestov nod early on, trying to hit the imps at the beginning bridge are a hard part but it CAN BE DONE. originally I wanted to put a few hitscanners, but since it's a tad unfair if your aim sucks, I vowed for imps. and the puzzle room behind the red door, yes, there is a secondary hint. I've put the hints on my twitter though.

[gaspe]

MAP04 - Andromeda Sun

Kills: 100% | Items: 75% | Secrets: 100 %


This was pretty nice, and kinda atmospheric too. The size of the areas help on giving some ambience. The music is appropriate. I loved the metal corridor in the cave and the marble building you approach climbing up. The Red Key puzzle is good. Gameplay is pretty slow, broken by some teleport ambushes; but it's fine since everything has its place with the mood of the map.